Christianity lapsing

fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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I know Christianity is a huge issue on DS, But where do we stand on lapsed Christians?
For 30 of my 32 years, I believed that God had a huge plan and was the answer to everything - literally everything, including hugely and horrible personal stuff I'd gone through.
But what when you finally decide that it's just not true, and there is no higher superpower, and that the rubbish you go through is just life - with no higher purpose?
Where is the difference? Why would "God" put us purposely through rubbish, to what end?
My mum is a huge Christian artist (huge in the art world, not actually 'huge') and it's tough to break away from her constant ministering. She won't accept my disbelief, which I understand. It's very recent.
But I can't believe anymore in this sky superpower that rules over us and lets us go through horrible stuff for some greater good. It's just .... unproductive.
If anyone has a way they could explain, that'd be great - because right now my faith has completely evaporated and maybe that's not a bad thing at all.

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  • johnnybgoode83johnnybgoode83 Posts: 8,908
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    I don't think God is a 'superpower'. I believe God is like us, human, but the best traits of us. Forgiving, compassionate, humble; I don't believe he has power to make things happen or stop things for happening. I believe he is there for us to 'talk' to when we feel low much like a free psychiatrist.
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    I know Christianity is a huge issue on DS, But where do we stand on lapsed Christians?
    For 30 of my 32 years, I believed that God had a huge plan and was the answer to everything - literally everything, including hugely and horrible personal stuff I'd gone through.
    But what when you finally decide that it's just not true, and there is no higher superpower, and that the rubbish you go through is just life - with no higher purpose?
    Where is the difference? Why would "God" put us purposely through rubbish, to what end?
    My mum is a huge Christian artist (huge in the art world, not actually 'huge') and it's tough to break away from her constant ministering. She won't accept my disbelief, which I understand. It's very recent.
    But I can't believe anymore in this sky superpower that rules over us and lets us go through horrible stuff for some greater good. It's just .... unproductive.
    If anyone has a way they could explain, that'd be great - because right now my faith has completely evaporated and maybe that's not a bad thing at all.

    Why do feel the need to tell everyone about this?
  • fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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    SULLA wrote: »
    Why do feel the need to tell everyone about this?

    Why not? Why not ask for answers?
  • Grabid RanniesGrabid Rannies Posts: 4,588
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    You've just realised that someone other than yourself is not actually in fact in control of your destiny, and as a non-theist myself I can only guess that must be more than a tad scary initially. If God exists then I personally would like to think that he won't discriminate against you for it in the long run, so long as you live life as if it were a good thing and are thankful for it :)
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    Why not? Why not ask for answers?

    Would you like everyone to be non believers as well?:)
  • TheSilentFezTheSilentFez Posts: 11,103
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    Anyone who is capable of rational thought and regularly thinks about life and "the mysteries of the universe" eventually comes to the conclusion that religion is nonsense.
    I'm not saying that believers are stupid (although I'm sure a substantial amount are), but they either don't bother thinking much about life and just accept what they've been told, or compartmentalise.

    (Note: Religion and God are not synonymous. You can believe in God without believing in the stupid customs, laws and mythology of the world's religions)
  • fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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    SULLA wrote: »
    Would you like everyone to be non believers as well?:)

    Don't be silly. Adding a smiley doesn't make your post less offensive. I'm simply airing my views, that God has basically treated at least a good few of his believers like absolute rubbish.
    If your life has been so blessed then you don't need to doubt, then lucky you.
  • fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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    Both of these. It's so scary to realise I'M in charge and not God. Who else is there to blame??
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    Don't be silly. Adding a smiley doesn't make your post less offensive.
    You wanted questions and so I gave them to you. Because you don't like the questions you find them offensive:rolleyes:
    I'm simply airing my views, that God has basically treated at least a good few of his believers like absolute rubbish.
    If your life has been so blessed then you don't need to doubt, then lucky you.
    What makes you think I don't have doubts. I just don't need to tell the world about them.
  • fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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    You've just realised that someone other than yourself is not actually in fact in control of your destiny, and as a non-theist myself I can only guess that must be more than a tad scary initially. If God exists then I personally would like to think that he won't discriminate against you for it in the long run, so long as you live life as if it were a good thing and are thankful for it :)
    SULLA wrote: »
    You wanted questions and so I gave them to you. Because you don't like the questions you find them offensive:rolleyes:
    What makes you think I don't have doubts. I just don't need to tell the world about them.

    Doesn't necessarily mean you have to rubbish other people for doing something that you don't say you need to do.
  • HelboreHelbore Posts: 16,066
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    Been there, done that, fluffy (but without a ministering parent). My advice - and what I found useful - is to go over a lot of your beliefs (including much of the Bible) and look at it through new eyes. Don't feel a need to assume god is always good/right or that god has to exist when evaluating. Particularly, look at beliefs that you may have struggled with and see if they make more sense if god isn't real or if the god portrayed in the Bible wasn't necessarily the way we're told he has to be.

    I was amazed at the amount of things that required me to ump through hoops to explain were a lot simpler if you just said "its probably not true," or "the god written about here doesn't seem very nice." It cleared my head a lot and by the end of it, it felt like I was really seeing the world as it was, for the first time. It's a lot of effort, but I felt better for it in the end.
  • Aspen123Aspen123 Posts: 238
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    Here is an analogy: we are like fish in the sea. Occasionally some of the fish who are able to turn their heads in strange directions see weird, dark shapes moving about above them and decide that there must be more to life than their underwater world. Their fish brains are fundamentally unable to understand, or even begin to imagine, what that world is like but they trust that it is there.

    Some of the other fish say 'well you can't summon these shapes whenever we want to see them or explain using fish language what they are so we don't believe they exist', and other fish say 'well maybe we can see these shapes but we can't see how they have any relevance to fish life so let's just pretend they're not there'.

    Now view it from the human perspective. We know the fish are there and that they have a very limited understanding of the world/universe. Far from us not affecting them at all, in many ways they depend on us. In the face of a changing world climate, over-fishing of the oceans, etc., they could do certain things to help us maintain their numbers and ensure their continued survival. How would we communicate to them what we need them to do? We can't talk to them, or explain the science to them, or lay out the reasons why human economic policies require a fishing quota system. We would have to become a fish and show them by example what we needed them to do.

    Now I realise this analogy only goes so far, but I think it illustrates that trying to understand God will get you about as far as a fish is going to get trying to understand the EU.

    To relate it directly to your point about suffering in the world (and again this analogy has at least one massive hole in it), a fish might feel the pain of being hooked in the mouth and pulled from the sea but it is ultimately going to be part of something much bigger and more wonderful than it could ever have imagined (e.g. a cod mornay :D). Not sure where I'm going with this now... :D

    Anyway, in my view really you have to do what works for you. If you find you just can't believe in God, then be true to yourself. But if you do believe there is something else out there and that Christianity can tell us something about it, you just have to trust that the pain will lead you to a better place in the end. Much like a child being immunised against a serious disease cannot understand why their parents are inflicting pain on them. I find www.ronrolheiser.com often has thought-provoking short columns about things of this kind.

    Finally, I am sorry to hear that you have had horrible experiences to deal with in your life. :(
  • Grabid RanniesGrabid Rannies Posts: 4,588
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    Doesn't necessarily mean you have to rubbish other people for doing something that you don't say you need to do.

    I wasn't rubbishing you! I was trying to be sympathetic to what must be a difficult phase! :(
  • fluffybunyipfluffybunyip Posts: 4,909
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    I wasn't rubbishing you! I was trying to be sympathetic to what must be a difficult phase! :(

    I'm so sorry Grabid :( Completely misquoted!!

    And Thank You, Helbore and Aspen! Such valuable inputs without coloured viewpoints :):)
  • Grabid RanniesGrabid Rannies Posts: 4,588
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    I'm so sorry Grabid :( Completely misquoted!!

    No please don't be sorry! I think I see now the context you intended but I just didn't immediately grasp for myself :o

    I think I see also that some posters are making some hopefully very helpful and meaningful contributions for you :)
  • TheSilentFezTheSilentFez Posts: 11,103
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    Aspen123 wrote: »
    Here is an analogy: we are like fish in the sea. Occasionally some of the fish who are able to turn their heads in strange directions see weird, dark shapes moving about above them and decide that there must be more to life than their underwater world. Their fish brains are fundamentally unable to understand, or even begin to imagine, what that world is like but they trust that it is there.

    Some of the other fish say 'well you can't summon these shapes whenever we want to see them or explain using fish language what they are so we don't believe they exist', and other fish say 'well maybe we can see these shapes but we can't see how they have any relevance to fish life so let's just pretend they're not there'.

    Now view it from the human perspective. We know the fish are there and that they have a very limited understanding of the world/universe. Far from us not affecting them at all, in many ways they depend on us. In the face of a changing world climate, over-fishing of the oceans, etc., they could do certain things to help us maintain their numbers and ensure their continued survival. How would we communicate to them what we need them to do? We can't talk to them, or explain the science to them, or lay out the reasons why human economic policies require a fishing quota system. We would have to become a fish and show them by example what we needed them to do.

    The thing is, we don't claim to have created the fish, nor do we demand that they worship us or tell them that we will torture them for eternity if they refuse to do so.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,915
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    You're not lost. You have your will, and your will is the most powerful thing in the world. In adversity it's "my will against the universe" and this is what makes you a fully-formed human being, an entity in your own right.
  • Aspen123Aspen123 Posts: 238
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    The thing is, we don't claim to have created the fish, nor do we demand that they worship us or tell them that we will torture them for eternity if they refuse to do so.

    I know, it is one of the massive holes in the analogy that humans don't have at all the same relationship with fish as God would have with us (not that I would describe that relationship as you have) :D. We would need to have created fish to be able to actually become a fish though wouldn't we? The analogy is intended more just to show how unlikely it is that what we see as humans and can understand with our science is all there is.

    How does one respond to that? You either refuse to believe that there is anything else; you accept that there is something else but don't want to think about it as you feel it is irrelevant to us; or you try to respond to it.

    Maybe religion has something to offer in understanding whatever else there is, maybe it doesn't. To me it is clear that it does.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,116
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    Aspen123 wrote: »
    Here is an analogy: we are like fish in the sea. Occasionally some of the fish who are able to turn their heads in strange directions see weird, dark shapes moving about above them and decide that there must be more to life than their underwater world. Their fish brains are fundamentally unable to understand, or even begin to imagine, what that world is like but they trust that it is there.

    Some of the other fish say 'well you can't summon these shapes whenever we want to see them or explain using fish language what they are so we don't believe they exist', and other fish say 'well maybe we can see these shapes but we can't see how they have any relevance to fish life so let's just pretend they're not there'.
    A better analogy would be if all the fish were blind and had no concept of 'vision', but some of them believed there were dark shapes above the sea. So the other fish attempt to feel for vibrations and listen for sounds the dark shapes might be making.

    When nothing happens, the other fish conclude they probably don't exist and, either way, it is not worth paying any attention to until some vibrations or noises are detected.

    The first group of fish decide that these dark shapes definitely do exist, evidence be damned, and so decide to live their lives according to how they think these dark shapes would want them to.
  • Stiffy78Stiffy78 Posts: 26,260
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    Aspen123 wrote: »
    I know, it is one of the massive holes in the analogy that humans don't have at all the same relationship with fish as God would have with us (not that I would describe that relationship as you have) :D. We would need to have created fish to be able to actually become a fish though wouldn't we? The analogy is intended more just to show how unlikely it is that what we see as humans and can understand with our science is all there is.

    Of course we don't understand everything. We should not fill those gaps in our knowledge with some undefiniable 'something else'..
    Aspen123 wrote: »
    How does one respond to that? You either refuse to believe that there is anything else; you accept that there is something else but don't want to think about it as you feel it is irrelevant to us; or you try to respond to it.

    Maybe religion has something to offer in understanding whatever else there is, maybe it doesn't. To me it is clear that it does.

    For many their non-belief isn't a result of refusing to believe there is something else but rather seeing absolutely no evidence or reason to believe there is.
  • HelboreHelbore Posts: 16,066
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    Aspen123 wrote: »
    I know, it is one of the massive holes in the analogy that humans don't have at all the same relationship with fish as God would have with us (not that I would describe that relationship as you have) :D. We would need to have created fish to be able to actually become a fish though wouldn't we? The analogy is intended more just to show how unlikely it is that what we see as humans and can understand with our science is all there is.

    How does one respond to that? You either refuse to believe that there is anything else; you accept that there is something else but don't want to think about it as you feel it is irrelevant to us; or you try to respond to it.

    Maybe religion has something to offer in understanding whatever else there is, maybe it doesn't. To me it is clear that it does.

    Doesn't your analogy actually suggest that religion has nothing to offer? That's how I took it, anyway. The fish are incapable of understanding the world above the water, so whatever they come up with to explain it is inherently flawed. If they happened to get it right, it would be purely by chance - because they're incapable of grasping the realities of it.

    Similarly, if we - as a species - are incapable of understanding god in the same way, then there's next to no chance that any religion is anywhere near correct. Just like the fish who sees a sinking net and thinks it's descending angels, here to usher in a new world of peace and tranquillity. :D
  • Aspen123Aspen123 Posts: 238
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    jy1541 wrote: »
    A better analogy would be if all the fish were blind and had no concept of 'vision', but some of them believed there were dark shapes above the sea. So the other fish attempt to feel for vibrations and listen for sounds the dark shapes might be making.

    When nothing happens, the other fish conclude they probably don't exist and, either way, it is not worth paying any attention to until some vibrations or noises are detected.

    The first group of fish decide that these dark shapes definitely do exist, evidence be damned, and so decide to live their lives according to how they think these dark shapes would want them to.

    Well I would reply that you are clearly one of the fish who refuse to believe that other fish have actually seen the shapes, because they can't be explained or detected using fish science. I am one of the fish who has seen some dark shapes (more than just blindly believing they must be there).

    Anyway, I am going to log off now as I feel I am beginning to sound like a completely crazy fish :D.
  • Aspen123Aspen123 Posts: 238
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    Helbore wrote: »
    Doesn't your analogy actually suggest that religion has nothing to offer? That's how I took it, anyway. The fish are incapable of understanding the world above the water, so whatever they come up with to explain it is inherently flawed. If they happened to get it right, it would be purely by chance - because they're incapable of grasping the realities of it.

    Similarly, if we - as a species - are incapable of understanding god in the same way, then there's next to no chance that any religion is anywhere near correct. Just like the fish who sees a sinking net and thinks it's descending angels, here to usher in a new world of peace and tranquillity. :D

    Well yes I do think oversimplistic religion is not a good way of trying to understand the world. That was what I was trying to convey to the OP: if you try to understand God too much you won't get very far. It needs to be done in a different way and I am not sure I can explain how. I find it very hard to describe but I suppose it is what people mean when they talk about faith as a gift.

    On another point, if a human had become a fish to try to teach us about how to be the kind of fish that would make a good cod mornay then I think that would be of immense interest to all the fish. :D

    Anyway, like I said in my last post I am starting to sound slightly crazy and I'm not sure I like this cod mornay idea so I'm logging off now :D
  • archiverarchiver Posts: 13,011
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    Both of these. It's so scary to realise I'M in charge and not God. Who else is there to blame??
    Apportioning blame is as fruitless as the religion you're doing without. You don't need to let your new found wisdom change you. Just carry on as you were, with the rest of your life, and perhaps use the extra spare time you have to do something more rewarding in the here (rather than the hereafter). Maybe you inherited some of your mum's artistic skill?
    Helbore wrote: »
    Doesn't your analogy actually suggest that religion has nothing to offer? That's how I took it, anyway. The fish are incapable of understanding the world above the water, so whatever they come up with to explain it is inherently flawed. If they happened to get it right, it would be purely by chance - because they're incapable of grasping the realities of it.

    Similarly, if we - as a species - are incapable of understanding god in the same way, then there's next to no chance that any religion is anywhere near correct. Just like the fish who sees a sinking net and thinks it's descending angels, here to usher in a new world of peace and tranquillity. :D
    At least they'd be glad they always wiggled their fins in that particular way they learn't at Sunday school. :)
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    Doesn't necessarily mean you have to rubbish other people for doing something that you don't say you need to do.

    Please note that I am not suggesting that you are a worse person for no longer believing.

    If you don't want my opinion just say so and I wont post again
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