I seen a buddha figure when I smoked DMT, didnt convert me though, I was just tripping hard.
Yeah, but as I said, drugs are not the same as a NDE, nor is seeing a Buddha figure. These are consistent narratives. Not to mention when the brain is dead.
I am interested in this. Where was said atheist from?
Name Is Merra, I think, a businessman who was totally changed by his experience. Think his account is in the book Beyond the Light by Atwater. Have to be off and out now.
Just saying, seeing spiritual figures or 'God' is a pretty common phenomenon with DMT ingestion, as it is with NDE, and seeing as there is a theory the two are one and the same it bears mentioning.
I'm not clear what binary has to do with it, as the person is not a little dead, but dead by medical definition. What you might be referring to is, no one has come back from the morgue. The only difference is the time lapse in which the person is given to respond to CPR, after which formal death is pronounced.
I think the point is that death is the permanent cessation of life, so a person is either dead (will never live again) or they're not dead (even though the heart has stopped etc.).
Just saying, seeing spiritual figures or 'God' is a pretty common phenomenon with DMT ingestion, as it is with NDE, and seeing as there is a theory the two are one and the same it bears mentioning.
It does bear mentioning, in that some persons have had 'religious experiences" while on substances. It is possible that drugs do expand consciousness, although maybe not in an organized way.
NDE's, by contrast, usually share about 10-12 recognizable characteristics, that is the difference as I see it.
I think the point is that death is the permanent cessation of life, so a person is either dead (will never live again) or they're not dead (even though the heart has stopped etc.).
The move from clinical death to biological death has not been shown to involve any change in higher brain activity, though. In clinical death, there is no electrical energy in the brain and in biological death there is no electrical energy to the brain.
What about NMDAR antagonism, that receptor is antagonised by hardcore amounts of dissociative substances like ketamine,PCP, Salvia and nitrous and can certainly induce similar effects to that describe by witnesses to NDEs, anyone who's thoroughly k-holed themselves can attest to that.
It's another avenue that's worth consideration before being too keenly led down the path of spiritual or 'otherwordly' phenomenon...
..And once again, that doesn't discount or devalue spirituality it just provides a physical conduit for it that is more plausible and at least physically visible - God may well be 'in the detail'.
What about NMDAR antagonism, that receptor is antagonised by hardcore amounts of dissociative substances like ketamine,PCP, Salvia and nitrous and can certainly induce similar effects to that describe by witnesses to NDEs, anyone who's thoroughly k-holed themselves can attest to that.
It's another avenue that's worth consideration before being too keenly led down the path of spiritual or 'otherwordly' phenomenon...
..And once again, that doesn't discount or devalue spirituality it just provides a physical conduit for it that is more plausible and at least physically visible - God may well be 'in the detail'.
The point is though that these experiences happen when there is no brain activity capable of abstract thought to report back. A person taking drugs vountarily can usually report back. In addition, some NDE's occur when there have been no drugs administered. The idea that the body itself produces a drug does not totally make sense to me, as people would need that when they are in pain, not as they die and are released from pain.
I haven't heard of any hallucination on PCP that ever sounded like a religious experience, myself. Mostly relief from feeling (which is why many take it), rages or in some cases working as aphrodisiacs. And ending in nightmare for too many.
The point is though that these experiences happen when there is no brain activity capable of abstract thought to report back. A person taking drugs vountarily can usually report back. In addition, some NDE's occur when there have been no drugs administered. The idea that the body itself produces a drug does not totally make sense to me, as people would need that when they are in pain, not as they die and are released from pain.
I haven't heard of any hallucination on PCP that ever sounded like a religious experience, myself. Mostly relief from feeling (which is why many take it), rages or in some cases working as aphrodisiacs. And ending in nightmare for too many.
Oh i'm not suggesting these drugs are somehow synthesised in death...only that they antagonise receptors that may also be antagonised in the proccess of hypoxia, so at least experentially the accounts may be similar....except in the case of dmt. it essentially amounts to the same thing though, wether catalysed by
Oh i'm not suggesting these drugs are somehow synthesised in death...only that they antagonise receptors that may also be antagonised in the proccess of hypoxia, so at least experentially the accounts may be similar....except in the case of dmt. it essentially amounts to the same thing though, wether catalysed by
I think you are talking about hypoxia (or maybe anoxia) as a cause of NDE's. Many NDE's occur without hypoxia, though.
And hypoxic experiences are only similar to NDE's in a very superficial way.
Hypoxia is the 'root cause' of brain death essentially. An NDE is, IMO, an experential perspective of said oxygen deprivation. NMDAR antagonism or DMT release are the mechanisms which induce such 'visions' in the Hypoxic brain. That is my take on it..
...or you know It could be that NDE's are god popping down to say 'ello, but then why doesnt everyone have an NDE,.Is god too busy? That would make him a pretty crap omnipotent being eh?
The move from clinical death to biological death has not been shown to involve any change in higher brain activity, though. In clinical death, there is no electrical energy in the brain and in biological death there is no electrical energy to the brain.
That's nothing to do with the point that was being made.
That's nothing to do with the point that was being made.
It is a point related to NDE's, not cessation of life (as I think NDE's are the topic, not biological death). From the POV of NDE's the clinically dead person should not have access to higher brain functioning. (have to repeat myself there). And physicians supporting NDE research appear to agree on that point.
The kind of hallucinations from ketamine...are clearly different and do not have the consistency of the NDE narratives, let alone the life-changing effects. (Why I refer to it as a divine or religious experience).
Dr. Karl Jansen would disagree with you on this. His book "Ketamine: Dreams and realities" documents a man's near death experience that is identical to a ketamine experience he had later.
Hypoxia is the 'root cause' of brain death essentially. An NDE is, IMO, an experential perspective of said oxygen deprivation. NMDAR antagonism or DMT release are the mechanisms which induce such 'visions' in the Hypoxic brain. That is my take on it..
...or you know It could be that NDE's are god popping down to say 'ello, but then why doesnt everyone have an NDE,.Is god too busy? That would make him a pretty crap omnipotent being eh?
Okay, that's your theory. But I just posted that many NDEs occur when hypoxia is not present. NDE's do not include many elements typical of hypoxia.(myoclonic convulsions, agitation, retrograde amensia, to name a few). This is why physicians involved in NDE studies have discarded the theory of oxygen deprivation as the cause of NDEs. The NDE patients have little in common with hypoxic patients and more in common with classic NDE characteristics.
I don't conclude that God is crappy if not everyone reports an NDE. Some will more than one cardiac event, some die and cannot report, some are heavily drugged.
It is a point related to NDE's, not cessation of life (as I think NDE's are the topic, not biological death). From the POV of NDE's the clinically dead person should not have access to higher brain functioning. (have to repeat myself there). And physicians supporting NDE research appear to agree on that point.
But the previous poster and I were talking about death. I joined in to clarify/support a point that had been made about that specifically.
..And once again, that doesn't discount or devalue spirituality it just provides a physical conduit for it that is more plausible and at least physically visible - God may well be 'in the detail'.
That's refreshing, thanks for not devaluing spirituality.
Dr. Karl Jansen would disagree with you on this. His book "Ketamine: Dreams and realities" documents a man's near death experience that is identical to a ketamine experience he had later.
But was Jansen's book peer reviewed, and did it contain controlled studies and not just anedotes? Also note the books proceeds fund ketamine work that Jansen does.:o
Seriously, drugs like ketamine likely do expand consciousness, but some say it is dubious for Jansen to make statements that ketamine experiences are identical to NDEs. He lists a few, but not even most, of the 10 elements of NDEs when comparing then to ketamine. I read a k-hole account that did not sound like an NDE at all, and although God was mentioned, it was rambling and included tangential events.
In addition, even if ketamine does produce a dissociative experience, it doesn't prove NDEs don't exist. There are NDEs without drugs, as I mentioned.
Comments
Yes, and it wasn't you.
I am interested in this. Where was said atheist from?
Yeah, but as I said, drugs are not the same as a NDE, nor is seeing a Buddha figure. These are consistent narratives. Not to mention when the brain is dead.
Name Is Merra, I think, a businessman who was totally changed by his experience. Think his account is in the book Beyond the Light by Atwater. Have to be off and out now.
I think the point is that death is the permanent cessation of life, so a person is either dead (will never live again) or they're not dead (even though the heart has stopped etc.).
It does bear mentioning, in that some persons have had 'religious experiences" while on substances. It is possible that drugs do expand consciousness, although maybe not in an organized way.
NDE's, by contrast, usually share about 10-12 recognizable characteristics, that is the difference as I see it.
The move from clinical death to biological death has not been shown to involve any change in higher brain activity, though. In clinical death, there is no electrical energy in the brain and in biological death there is no electrical energy to the brain.
It's another avenue that's worth consideration before being too keenly led down the path of spiritual or 'otherwordly' phenomenon...
..And once again, that doesn't discount or devalue spirituality it just provides a physical conduit for it that is more plausible and at least physically visible - God may well be 'in the detail'.
The point is though that these experiences happen when there is no brain activity capable of abstract thought to report back. A person taking drugs vountarily can usually report back. In addition, some NDE's occur when there have been no drugs administered. The idea that the body itself produces a drug does not totally make sense to me, as people would need that when they are in pain, not as they die and are released from pain.
I haven't heard of any hallucination on PCP that ever sounded like a religious experience, myself. Mostly relief from feeling (which is why many take it), rages or in some cases working as aphrodisiacs. And ending in nightmare for too many.
Oh i'm not suggesting these drugs are somehow synthesised in death...only that they antagonise receptors that may also be antagonised in the proccess of hypoxia, so at least experentially the accounts may be similar....except in the case of dmt. it essentially amounts to the same thing though, wether catalysed by
I think you are talking about hypoxia (or maybe anoxia) as a cause of NDE's. Many NDE's occur without hypoxia, though.
And hypoxic experiences are only similar to NDE's in a very superficial way.
...or you know It could be that NDE's are god popping down to say 'ello, but then why doesnt everyone have an NDE,.Is god too busy? That would make him a pretty crap omnipotent being eh?
That's nothing to do with the point that was being made.
Not always:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio_receiver
It is a point related to NDE's, not cessation of life (as I think NDE's are the topic, not biological death). From the POV of NDE's the clinically dead person should not have access to higher brain functioning. (have to repeat myself there). And physicians supporting NDE research appear to agree on that point.
Dr. Karl Jansen would disagree with you on this. His book "Ketamine: Dreams and realities" documents a man's near death experience that is identical to a ketamine experience he had later.
Okay, that's your theory. But I just posted that many NDEs occur when hypoxia is not present. NDE's do not include many elements typical of hypoxia.(myoclonic convulsions, agitation, retrograde amensia, to name a few). This is why physicians involved in NDE studies have discarded the theory of oxygen deprivation as the cause of NDEs. The NDE patients have little in common with hypoxic patients and more in common with classic NDE characteristics.
I don't conclude that God is crappy if not everyone reports an NDE. Some will more than one cardiac event, some die and cannot report, some are heavily drugged.
But the previous poster and I were talking about death. I joined in to clarify/support a point that had been made about that specifically.
That's refreshing, thanks for not devaluing spirituality.
But was Jansen's book peer reviewed, and did it contain controlled studies and not just anedotes?
Seriously, drugs like ketamine likely do expand consciousness, but some say it is dubious for Jansen to make statements that ketamine experiences are identical to NDEs. He lists a few, but not even most, of the 10 elements of NDEs when comparing then to ketamine. I read a k-hole account that did not sound like an NDE at all, and although God was mentioned, it was rambling and included tangential events.
In addition, even if ketamine does produce a dissociative experience, it doesn't prove NDEs don't exist. There are NDEs without drugs, as I mentioned.