Management - graduates v those who work their way up

big macbig mac Posts: 4,583
Forum Member
✭✭✭
I was having a discussion at work with a colleague who, for a few years, used to work in the rail industry.

He was saying that the managment team in the company he worked at used to be made up of guys who used to work in the industry itself e.g. drivers, mechanics, ticket inspectors etc. and had slowly progressed up the company to be in positions of power.

However, he said that in later years, the people that were appointed started to change, and rather than having those who knew the rail industry specifically, were those who were more generic managers, having studied business or whatever other University course.

His opinion was the standard of management declined greatly after this, because they had no knowledge about how the actual nitty gritty of the industry worked, and merely were there to "balance the books".

So this made me think about what type of manager works better, not just in rail but anything. What do you think?
«13

Comments

  • Blondie XBlondie X Posts: 28,662
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    All the best managers I've ever had ahve been those who worked their way up through the ranks and weren't scared to get their hands dirty, so to speak.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
    Forum Member
    I have MUCH more respect for a manager who has worked his/her way up through the ranks, knows the job and can actually be useful as well as a good manager.

    Every single manager I have ever worked for that has come straight from Uni has been a complete tw*t, doesn't actually know anything about managing staff in the real world and of course, doesn't know the job. They also end up never getting invited to staff outings because nobody likes them :)
  • kim1994kim1994 Posts: 7,332
    Forum Member
    in general I think a good manager is one that has actually done the job or a similar one of the people they manage. But as with life there can be exceptions I have known some managers that have worked they way up and were crap as a front line worker and crap as a manager.
  • mathertronmathertron Posts: 30,083
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Both career paths are inundated with thickos. From my massively arrogant and totally unemployed soapbox.
  • kim1994kim1994 Posts: 7,332
    Forum Member
    mathertron wrote: »
    Both career paths are inundated with thickos. From my massively arrogant and totally unemployed soapbox.

    you do make me smile Mathers (in a good way btw)
  • lemoncurdlemoncurd Posts: 57,778
    Forum Member
    You can always count on a business/finance graduate to ruin a good engineering company.
    In our company, managers are engineers who have taken management training on the job.
  • myssmyss Posts: 16,443
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I agree with mathertron that both paths can contain idiots and good guys but on the whole, I'd go with your friend's view OP. I've had similar discussions at my workplace too where we've noticed more graduates, especially those from a more 'posher' background, being employed than those working their way up. We also tend find a small percentage of them who were probably sent to boarding or private school and then straight to Uni and noticeably have little social skills too. Very noticeably. Either way much prefer the person who work their way up, they have know minor but vital details and appreciate its use.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,341
    Forum Member
    Somebody who started at the very bottom and worked their way up instead of somebody who autom,atically think's they know more about the job and knows it all and automatically thinks they're in managent because they've got a few degrees but haven't completed their management training yet.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 40,102
    Forum Member
    Although I am a graduate whenever I have worked with management who came in from the graduate route they have always been worse at their job than managers who have progressed and worked their way to that level.

    Graduates do not know the company well, they seek help from people below them and they're generally still stick in the university world, being over-analytical and buy into the corporate bullshit far too much.

    If someone works their way up they already know the companies policies, the types of work they do, the dos and don'ts etc etc, whereas a newly appointed manager with (probably) no experience at all will have to go on a steep learning curve.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 9,815
    Forum Member
    There are arseholes everywhere, especially if they're telling you what to do.
  • Stiffy78Stiffy78 Posts: 26,260
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Everyone at my work is a graduate of some description including the managers but none of them have business or management degrees and have all worked in the industry before becoming management. Most of them are sadly crap however.
  • slslsslsls Posts: 2,175
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    It's very, very difficult to get anywhere without a degree these days. The last government put loads of legislation in place, they even legislated that you have to have a degree to run a playschool now? Seriously. That's the law.
  • Shadow27Shadow27 Posts: 4,180
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    big mac wrote: »
    I was having a discussion at work with a colleague who, for a few years, used to work in the rail industry.

    He was saying that the management team in the company he worked at used to be made up of guys who used to work in the industry itself e.g. drivers, mechanics, ticket inspectors etc. and had slowly progressed up the company to be in positions of power.

    However, he said that in later years, the people that were appointed started to change, and rather than having those who knew the rail industry specifically, were those who were more generic managers, having studied business or whatever other University course.

    His opinion was the standard of management declined greatly after this, because they had no knowledge about how the actual nitty gritty of the industry worked, and merely were there to "balance the books".

    So this made me think about what type of manager works better, not just in rail but anything. What do you think?

    Your friend is so right. My dad worked for the railway as a booking clerk since 1955 and was made redundant in 1980's as a station manager in favour of a graduate who'd done his work training at Tesco. :mad:

    A life time of industry knowledge lost thanks to Maggie's great privatisation breakdown. As it was everyone went - decades of experience gone and I believe there must be a mix. I am sure that long service can breed contempt maybe but it must be on a case by case basis. Trains were and still are my dad's passion and I have yet to see anyone at the same station with that much enthusiasm. New graduates can learn from that and from him but alone they were lost. Still are judging by the current state of the railway industry.

    My husband was an apprentice printer for one of the countries oldest printing firms and was made redundant only to be re-employed six months later as nobody knew his specialist job. Luckily for us it did not affect his redundancy package! Waste of money for them though.

    Thankfully the company I work for, a huge publishing place, encourages longevity as they value the inside knowledge and encourage people to stay and develop. From my own perspective recruiting designers, I look for work experience alongside creativity. I'd rather employ an HND educated designer with a study portfolio balance with work experience in a deadline environment than a graduate with loads of creativity and no experience. I'd rather they got the experience elsewhere and ironed out the office basics elsewhere.
  • Gareth56Gareth56 Posts: 2,856
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    One thing graduates cannot learn at university is experience even though some of them think they know the lot when they first start work.
  • rwouldrwould Posts: 5,260
    Forum Member
    To be a good manager you need to understand what people do in their job, but don't neccesarily understand the job inside out.

    Graduates are generally poor managers straight away as they have not got the people skills to manage people of a wide range of ages. Some have, but they are the exception.

    But if you want to see the flaw of employing people continually in one sector who work their way up, look at local government....
  • LardnessLardness Posts: 707
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    What about the forces? Most of the commissioned officers are 'straight to management' and the forces are (allegedly) one of the mostly respected & effective organisations in the UK.
  • rwouldrwould Posts: 5,260
    Forum Member
    Lardness wrote: »
    What about the forces? Most of the commissioned officers are 'straight to management' and the forces are (allegedly) one of the mostly respected & effective organisations in the UK.
    But they are not 'straight to management'.

    They undergo a lot of training and education before being able to give out orders. Somewhat more training than I've been given in any job I've had!
  • LardnessLardness Posts: 707
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    rwould wrote: »
    But they are not 'straight to management'.

    They undergo a lot of training and education before being able to give out orders. Somewhat more training than I've been given in any job I've had!

    That's the answer I was hoping to generate. It's all about getting the right people & training them. Sadly, though most companies see training as such an easy thing to cut....
  • big macbig mac Posts: 4,583
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Shadow27 wrote: »
    Your friend is so right. My dad worked for the railway as a booking clerk since 1955 and was made redundant in 1980's as a station manager in favour of a graduate who'd done his work training at Tesco. :mad:

    A life time of industry knowledge lost thanks to Maggie's great privatisation breakdown. As it was everyone went - decades of experience gone and I believe there must be a mix. I am sure that long service can breed contempt maybe but it must be on a case by case basis. Trains were and still are my dad's passion and I have yet to see anyone at the same station with that much enthusiasm. New graduates can learn from that and from him but alone they were lost. Still are judging by the current state of the railway industry.

    My husband was an apprentice printer for one of the countries oldest printing firms and was made redundant only to be re-employed six months later as nobody knew his specialist job. Luckily for us it did not affect his redundancy package! Waste of money for them though.

    Thankfully the company I work for, a huge publishing place, encourages longevity as they value the inside knowledge and encourage people to stay and develop. From my own perspective recruiting designers, I look for work experience alongside creativity. I'd rather employ an HND educated designer with a study portfolio balance with work experience in a deadline environment than a graduate with loads of creativity and no experience. I'd rather they got the experience elsewhere and ironed out the office basics elsewhere.

    I think the example of rail is probably one where those who have worked their way up being more effective than a graduate is more noticeable, because of the passion that you have mentioned that guys have towards it.

    My friend that I mentioned in my original post has been out of that industry for a good few years now, but he still avidly follows what is going on, buying the magazines, going on rail trips recreationally and all that sort of thing. To put it simply, what he did as a job, he would have chosen to do in his spare time.

    I can't see some young, slick type having that same sort of passion for the actual area and will probably be found out. It may not be as noticeable in industries which do not generate this type of enthusiasm.
  • Victim Of FateVictim Of Fate Posts: 5,157
    Forum Member
    I think it depends a lot on the industry, and a lot on the level at which graduates are coming in.

    I mean, I don't like the idea of someone just out of a post-graduate course stepping into a management role with no work experience while people with years of experience are stuck underneath a glass ceiling. But at the same time, I've seen people who've "come through the ranks" be stuck in the past, be insistent that any new staff have to come through the same way that they did even though it might not be necessary any more. And you don't want someone to be promoted above their level of ability just because they've put the years in.
  • lemoncurdlemoncurd Posts: 57,778
    Forum Member
    I think it depends a lot on the industry, and a lot on the level at which graduates are coming in.

    I mean, I don't like the idea of someone just out of a post-graduate course stepping into a management role with no work experience while people with years of experience are stuck underneath a glass ceiling. But at the same time, I've seen people who've "come through the ranks" be stuck in the past, be insistent that any new staff have to come through the same way that they did even though it might not be necessary any more. And you don't want someone to be promoted above their level of ability just because they've put the years in.

    Ultimately, promotion should always be based purely on ability. You need to show your ability to the company before you can manage a part of it, be you a long-standing employee or last year's graduate intake.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 347
    Forum Member
    Lardness wrote: »
    What about the forces? Most of the commissioned officers are 'straight to management' and the forces are (allegedly) one of the mostly respected & effective organisations in the UK.
    yeah they have a lot of training but no on the job experience, the majority are very good but there is a minority that are complete idiots, and if you work for them your job becomes 1000% harder, but its the same in any industry...........:mad:
  • skp20040skp20040 Posts: 66,872
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Nothing wrong with graduates , as long as they realise that it takes experience and the co-operation and hard work of their team and not just the exams they have passed to do a job and do it well .
  • MidnightFalconMidnightFalcon Posts: 15,016
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    The few graduates I've worked with tend have loads of ideas that look good in theory but little insight on unintended consequences. Old school managers tend to be a lot more practical but expect more from their staff.

    I think a healthy mix is the best option.
    mathertron wrote: »
    Both career paths are inundated with thickos. From my massively arrogant and totally unemployed soapbox.

    Love it.
  • big macbig mac Posts: 4,583
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The few graduates I've worked with tend have loads of ideas that look good in theory but little insight on unintended consequences. Old school managers tend to be a lot more practical but expect more from their staff.

    I think a healthy mix is the best option.

    Love it.

    Would a healthy mix really work, though? If you had a combination of both graduates and experienced guys in a management team, surely that would be an accident waiting to happen.

    The seasoned guys would just see the young people who have just come in as upstarts telling them how to do their job. The younger ones would probably have a snobby attitude and see the old school as not having a grasp of the paperwork and the finances, and not being "at that level".

    I doubt anything would get done amidst all of the bad feeling.
Sign In or Register to comment.