I think kruador was discussing ArqB which seems to be running at some middle power level which is quite a bit higher than pre-DSO but quite a bit lower that the PSB muxes.
The same order of calculations would apply to the PSB muxes and they and Arq B are all sharing the same antenna. So they could all be limited by the transitional antenna's power rating. The point is that even if Arq B is running at 60kW, then the PSBs would be unlikely to exceed that by much because of CCI in Kent and Sussex, where Dover and Bluebell Hill DSO and a number of other transmitters retune on 27/6/12.
The same order of calculations would apply to the PSB muxes and they and Arq B are all sharing the same antenna. So they could all be limited by the transitional antenna's power rating. The point is that even if Arq B is running at 60kW, then the PSBs would be unlikely to exceed that by much because of CCI in Kent and Sussex, where Dover and Bluebell Hill DSO and a number of other transmitters retune on 27/6/12.
Except that the PSB muxes aren't using UHF 48. I thought kruador's point was that UHF 48 is in use at two other sites at New Barnett and Hemel Hempstead which have to be protected.
My measurements of signal strength yesterday show that the PSB muxes are at considerably higher power:
Power across all channels at 8:50 AM, measured on Humax HDR Fox T2:
21 70% Mux HD
24 75% D3+4
27 73% BBCA
31 55% Mux A (2K carriers)
48 60% Arq B (8K carriers)
67 44% Mux C (2K carriers)
This is also what makes me believe Mux A has had a power increase, despite there being no documentation to say so. UHF 31 is a legacy analogue allocation on Sandy Heath so is probably clear for fairly high power use.
I understand what you are saying but UHF 21/24/27 are co-channel with Bluebell Hill, Hastings and possibly many small relays until DSO. What is wrong is the lack of information. Even Ofcon has not said exactly what is going on. Arqiva will maintain that we do not need to know. That of course is rubbish if you are trying to set up receiving aerials in a fringe area and you need to take into account future changes.
This is also what makes me believe Mux A has had a power increase, despite there being no documentation to say so.
It turns out my theoriesed Mux A power increase is an illusion, caused by a Pace Twin in the UHF chain before the HDR Fox T2. The Pace Twin was attenuating UHF 67 whereas it amplifies all the other muxes (but somewhat variable in gain).
I've now taken more careful measurements using a Nokia 221T (which has a detailed Engineering screen) direct on the lounge aerial feed with nothing else in the way. The UHF chain goes:
Televes DAT75 aerial in loft, fitted with MRD (Margin Rising Device ie. builtin 13db amp) unpowered so it doesn't amplify.
Research Communications LNA type 9428: 20db gain, 0.4db noise, +-1db flatness across band.
Maxview MHP1/S screened 12V masthead psu, 0.5db insertion loss.
Inline barrel F connector TV aerial socket in lounge wall.
All cabled on CT100 dual screened coax with copper foil including fly lead to STB.
All connections F connectors, final connection to STB uses F to Belling Lee adaptor.
Unable to measure HD mux, Nokia 221T is SD only. I've also listed the Humax HDR Fox T2 signal strength (when measured direct on lounge aerial feed) and my Sony KDL-26E4000 TV report of the pre-Viterbi error rate 5s average (again measured direct on lounge aerial feed).
UHF 21 HD: No Nokia 221T or KDL-26E4000 figures
HDR Fox T2 strength: 77%
I understand what you are saying but UHF 21/24/27 are co-channel with Bluebell Hill, Hastings and possibly many small relays until DSO. What is wrong is the lack of information. Even Ofcon has not said exactly what is going on. Arqiva will maintain that we do not need to know. That of course is rubbish if you are trying to set up receiving aerials in a fringe area and you need to take into account future changes.
Bluebell Hill shows an 'Existing DTT power-up' event on 23 March 2011, a week before Sandy Heath DSO, on Digital UK's Meridian 'Trade Region' page. Unfortunately no resource states what changed. We can assume that there was some power increase on C24 and C27 but don't know how much.
The other difference is that Sandy Heath used C21/C24/C27 for analogue services before DSO so generally you only have to look after low-power DTT.
The power increase at Bluebell Hill probably did more damage to Newnham, Chartham, Hythe Marina and Mountfield than Sandy Heath's DSO itself!
Hastings is quite a bit further away, and did not get a power increase.
While watching A Question of Sport on BBC One (well switched to it after watching a recording) noticed a watch in HD prompt, first time I've ever seen this on any channel since HD became available on the Sudbury transmitter in July. Pressing OK, as expected, switches the PVR to BBC One HD.
While watching A Question of Sport on BBC One (well switched to it after watching a recording) noticed a watch in HD prompt, first time I've ever seen this on any channel since HD became available on the Sudbury transmitter in July. Pressing OK, as expected, switches the PVR to BBC One HD.
I'm still waiting for that to appear via my HD-Fox T2. It is supported as its listed as a new feature in a software update (either the current or previous version) but it's not shown up at all here (Sandy Heath)
Hythe (Hampshire) is a single-channel relay, ITV1 only, intended to provide Meridian Southampton to people otherwise better covered by Hannington, after Meridian started the north-west sub-region. It uses C59 and is really irrelevant to this discussion as it doesn't clash with any service from Sandy Heath.
Hythe (Hants), along with North Winchester and Hatch Bottom which were set up at the same time, for the same purpose, will not be used after DSO. The Meridian North/West region is now dead after having briefly operated with Oxford in 'ITV Thames Valley', the only legacy of which is that Meridian Southampton has swallowed Oxford as well.
Hythe (Hants), along with North Winchester and Hatch Bottom which were set up at the same time, for the same purpose, will not be used after DSO.
So people using a relay that dies at DSO have to change their aeiral installation in some way? Do they qualify for switchover scheme money to do so, since it wasn't the householder's choice to lose the relay?
When do the relays die? Presumably when the main station they are relaying from goes through DSO?
So people using a relay that dies at DSO have to change their aeiral installation in some way? Do they qualify for switchover scheme money to do so, since it wasn't the householder's choice to lose the relay?
When do the relays die? Presumably when the main station they are relaying from goes through DSO?
Those relays only carried ITV, so that they received all channels from the primary transmitter and a correct regional version from the relay, not because they were in an area with no reception.
So people using a relay that dies at DSO have to change their aeiral installation in some way? Do they qualify for switchover scheme money to do so, since it wasn't the householder's choice to lose the relay?
All three relays are sited such that they were in broadly the same direction as Hannington for the homes they were serving, so all the viewers had to do was re-tune their No 3 preset to the more relevant version of Meridian (or a spare preset in addition to the other services). I'm familiar with all three areas, and I've not seen a single aerial ever directed primarily at them. The only impact closing them, would be for viewers who did have the ITV service tuned in on Preset 3, to retune.
When do the relays die? Presumably when the main station they are relaying from goes through DSO?
Well assuming they are still active (Meridain did away with the Hannington sub opt a couple of years ago) they will die at Rowridge DSO 2 (March 21st). However, they are there to benefit Hannington viewers, so if they are still active, they should be switched off at Hannington DSO 2 (Feb 22nd) otherwise they will cause (even more) confusion !
Has everyone managed to Re-Tune today okay since the changes were made to the Freeview service?
Why bother? It's one extra pointless shopping channel. It's really not worth me doing this since I'll lose all my recording schedule and have to set them all again. I'll get it on 23 Nov 2011 when Mux C moves away from UHF 67 and becomes Arq A.
Why bother? It's one extra pointless shopping channel. It's really not worth me doing this since I'll lose all my recording schedule and have to set them all again. I'll get it on 23 Nov 2011 when Mux C moves away from UHF 67 and becomes Arq A.
I see so when I go thought DSO Mux C becomes Arq A it that right?
I see so when I go thought DSO Mux C becomes Arq A it that right?
Yes. At many sites eg. Emley Moor this happens at DSO2. But Sandy Heath has an extended multi sequence DSO, and DSO2 only gave us the three PSB muxes. 23 Nov 2011 it is just Mux C becoming Arq A on Sandy Heath, no other muxes change. Then next May 2012 (I think), Mux A (the last pre-DSO on Sandy Heath) becomes SDN.
Why bother? It's one extra pointless shopping channel. It's really not worth me doing this since I'll lose all my recording schedule and have to set them all again. I'll get it on 23 Nov 2011 when Mux C moves away from UHF 67 and becomes Arq A.
Maybe pointless to you but not to the owners of Mux A or the channel itself which is paying £millions a year to get on Freeview. If no one watches or buys anything from TJC, it won't remain on the platform. Without these channels, Freeview wouldn't exist as mux owners need to fill their muxes to make a profit and there aren't enough "good" (in your eyes) channels to achieve this. I also support slapper channels for the same reason; their cash means that channels like QUEST pay less than if the slapper channels were not allowed on DTT. Paying more could mean that QUEST might not be able to justify its business case for being on Freeview. Variety is the spice of life and a variety of channels on Freeview are the best way to keep a terrestrial FTA service running even if you don't approve of all of them. Sorry for the homily but calling a channel pointless gets my goat.
Maybe pointless to you but not to the owners of Mux A or the channel itself which is paying £millions a year to get on Freeview. If no one watches or buys anything from TJC, it won't remain on the platform. Without these channels, Freeview wouldn't exist as mux owners need to fill their muxes to make a profit and there aren't enough "good" (in your eyes) channels to achieve this. I also support slapper channels for the same reason; their cash means that channels like QUEST pay less than if the slapper channels were not allowed on DTT. Paying more could mean that QUEST might not be able to justify its business case for being on Freeview. Variety is the spice of life and a variety of channels on Freeview are the best way to keep a terrestrial FTA service running even if you don't approve of all of them. Sorry for the homily but calling a channel pointless gets my goat.
I believe in public service broadcasting. I want the BBC licence fee to increase. I want BBC4 to have it's own HD channel. Freeview space is a precious resource and it should not be left to raw commercial greed to need pointless wastes of bandwidth like shopping and babe channels to prop it up.
We will have to agree to disagree. I accept that you have a different opinion. It's a shame that my different opinion "gets your goat".
I believe in public service broadcasting. I want the BBC licence fee to increase. I want BBC4 to have it's own HD channel. Freeview space is a precious resource and it should not be left to raw commercial greed to need pointless wastes of bandwidth like shopping and babe channels to prop it up.
We will have to agree to disagree. I accept that you have a different opinion. It's a shame that my different opinion "gets your goat".
I hate ITV2 but it could not be described as pointless. It is targeted at young women of a certain age that advertisers want to engage with. It is so successful that it is the highest rated FTA channel after the legacy analogue channels.
Using a different word than pointless would not get my goat.
Was there another retune event on Sandy last night? My HDR just told me a network change has been done requiring a full retune, deleting all the scheduled recordings etc.
Was there another retune event on Sandy last night? My HDR just told me a network change has been done requiring a full retune, deleting all the scheduled recordings etc.
No, there has not been a Re-Tune event since last week and the next one is on the 23 November
Did you do a Re-Tune last week after Wednesday when the 795 channel stopped broadcasting and got replaced with the Jellery Channel on Channel Number 60?
Yep, it's only a few days since the last time it was retuned. I haven't noticed anything being missing yet.
On the PVR, we lose all the scheduled recordings whenever a proper retune is done. You can do a network rescan without losing them all, but I sometimes hit the wrong button and get a full rescan - and today I didn't get a choice, the popup did a full rescan.
All our other TVs have also been asking for retunes at seemingly random intervals for a few weeks now too. Just lately I feel like I need to retune the TV every time there's something on I want to watch!
Out of interest, when the PVR asks 'which region', what is the correct answer to get Sandy Heath? I presume I'm picking up signals from more than one transmitter, but only the ones from Sandy are good enough to watch anyway.
Yep, it's only a few days since the last time it was retuned. I haven't noticed anything being missing yet.
On the PVR, we lose all the scheduled recordings whenever a proper retune is done. You can do a network rescan without losing them all, but I sometimes hit the wrong button and get a full rescan - and today I didn't get a choice, the popup did a full rescan.
All our other TVs have also been asking for retunes at seemingly random intervals for a few weeks now too. Just lately I feel like I need to retune the TV every time there's something on I want to watch!
Out of interest, when the PVR asks 'which region', what is the correct answer to get Sandy Heath? I presume I'm picking up signals from more than one transmitter, but only the ones from Sandy are good enough to watch anyway.
They don't name the transmitters any more. I believe Sandy Heath is shown as "Cambs & Beds". Waltham is called "East Midlands" Belmont is called "East Yorks & Lincs". Emley Moor is called "Yorkshire".
They don't name the transmitters any more. I believe Sandy Heath is shown as "Cambs & Beds". Waltham is called "East Midlands" Belmont is called "East Yorks & Lincs". Emley Moor is called "Yorkshire".
It'd be a lot easier if they gave the transmitter name. My parents are receiving from both Emley Moor and Holmfirth, popping up a box offering them "Yorkshire" or "Yorkshire" really doesn't help.
It'd be a lot easier if they gave the transmitter name. My parents are receiving from both Emley Moor and Holmfirth, popping up a box offering them "Yorkshire" or "Yorkshire" really doesn't help.
Digital signals are all SFN signals - some happen to come from just one TX site, but this is just due to the specific implementation.
Sudbury and Rouncefall og Beacon Hill and Budleigh Salterton are just two examples where the signals are in fact not specific to just one transmitter.
Such examples will be more common, when DSO passes London and the Meridian area.
Should the 600MHz band be used for layer 7, 8 and 9, real SFN operation will be everywhere - layer 9 even UK-wide.
Having said that - there is extensions to the DVB-T2 standard to enable TX identification - but I don't think it will be implemented in any consumer products.
Comments
The same order of calculations would apply to the PSB muxes and they and Arq B are all sharing the same antenna. So they could all be limited by the transitional antenna's power rating. The point is that even if Arq B is running at 60kW, then the PSBs would be unlikely to exceed that by much because of CCI in Kent and Sussex, where Dover and Bluebell Hill DSO and a number of other transmitters retune on 27/6/12.
Except that the PSB muxes aren't using UHF 48. I thought kruador's point was that UHF 48 is in use at two other sites at New Barnett and Hemel Hempstead which have to be protected.
My measurements of signal strength yesterday show that the PSB muxes are at considerably higher power:
Power across all channels at 8:50 AM, measured on Humax HDR Fox T2:
21 70% Mux HD
24 75% D3+4
27 73% BBCA
31 55% Mux A (2K carriers)
48 60% Arq B (8K carriers)
67 44% Mux C (2K carriers)
This is also what makes me believe Mux A has had a power increase, despite there being no documentation to say so. UHF 31 is a legacy analogue allocation on Sandy Heath so is probably clear for fairly high power use.
It turns out my theoriesed Mux A power increase is an illusion, caused by a Pace Twin in the UHF chain before the HDR Fox T2. The Pace Twin was attenuating UHF 67 whereas it amplifies all the other muxes (but somewhat variable in gain).
I've now taken more careful measurements using a Nokia 221T (which has a detailed Engineering screen) direct on the lounge aerial feed with nothing else in the way. The UHF chain goes:
Televes DAT75 aerial in loft, fitted with MRD (Margin Rising Device ie. builtin 13db amp) unpowered so it doesn't amplify.
Research Communications LNA type 9428: 20db gain, 0.4db noise, +-1db flatness across band.
Maxview MHP1/S screened 12V masthead psu, 0.5db insertion loss.
Inline barrel F connector TV aerial socket in lounge wall.
All cabled on CT100 dual screened coax with copper foil including fly lead to STB.
All connections F connectors, final connection to STB uses F to Belling Lee adaptor.
Unable to measure HD mux, Nokia 221T is SD only. I've also listed the Humax HDR Fox T2 signal strength (when measured direct on lounge aerial feed) and my Sony KDL-26E4000 TV report of the pre-Viterbi error rate 5s average (again measured direct on lounge aerial feed).
UHF 21 HD: No Nokia 221T or KDL-26E4000 figures
HDR Fox T2 strength: 77%
UHF 24 D3+4: C/N 26 dB, Pin -50 dBm, BER 0e0
8K, Guard 1/32, 64QAM, Code rate 2/3
HDR Fox T2 strength: 80%
KDL-26E4000 Pre-Viterbi: 2.2e-4
UHF 27 BBCA: C/N 26 dB, Pin -50 dBm, BER 0e0
8K, Guard 1/32, 64QAM, Code Rate 2/3
HDR Fox T2 strength: 77%
KDL-26E4000 Pre-Viterbi: 1.3e-4
UHF 31 Mux A: C/N 25 dB, Pin -72 dBm, BER 0e0
2K, Guard 1/32, 64QAM, Code Rate 2/3
HDR Fox T2 strength: 60%
KDL-26E4000 Pre-Viterbi: 4.8e-4
UHF 48 ArqB: C/N 25 dB, Pin -63 dBm , BER 0e0
8K, Guard 1/32, 64QAM, Code Rate 2/3
HDR Fox T2 strength: 67%
KDL-26E4000 Pre-Viterbi: 4.5e-4
UHF 67 MuxC: C/N 24 dB, Pin -72 dBm, BER 0e0
2K, Guard 1/32, 16QAM, Code Rate 3/4
HDR Fox T2 strength: 60%
KDL-26E4000 Pre-Viterbi: 0e0
I note that Mux C alone has a Pre-Viterbi error rate of zero, being the only 16QAM mux this makes sense.
Bluebell Hill shows an 'Existing DTT power-up' event on 23 March 2011, a week before Sandy Heath DSO, on Digital UK's Meridian 'Trade Region' page. Unfortunately no resource states what changed. We can assume that there was some power increase on C24 and C27 but don't know how much.
The other difference is that Sandy Heath used C21/C24/C27 for analogue services before DSO so generally you only have to look after low-power DTT.
The power increase at Bluebell Hill probably did more damage to Newnham, Chartham, Hythe Marina and Mountfield than Sandy Heath's DSO itself!
Hastings is quite a bit further away, and did not get a power increase.
Hythe, not Hythe Marina, that's in Hampshire, and I doubt anyone now uses it, (assuming it's actually still active ?)
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/hythe-hants.php
I'm still waiting for that to appear via my HD-Fox T2. It is supported as its listed as a new feature in a software update (either the current or previous version) but it's not shown up at all here (Sandy Heath)
Sorry, I was reading off a ukfree.tv map. That'll teach me not to check primary sources!
Hythe in Kent uses 21/24/27/31.
Hythe (Hampshire) is a single-channel relay, ITV1 only, intended to provide Meridian Southampton to people otherwise better covered by Hannington, after Meridian started the north-west sub-region. It uses C59 and is really irrelevant to this discussion as it doesn't clash with any service from Sandy Heath.
Hythe (Hants), along with North Winchester and Hatch Bottom which were set up at the same time, for the same purpose, will not be used after DSO. The Meridian North/West region is now dead after having briefly operated with Oxford in 'ITV Thames Valley', the only legacy of which is that Meridian Southampton has swallowed Oxford as well.
So people using a relay that dies at DSO have to change their aeiral installation in some way? Do they qualify for switchover scheme money to do so, since it wasn't the householder's choice to lose the relay?
When do the relays die? Presumably when the main station they are relaying from goes through DSO?
Those relays only carried ITV, so that they received all channels from the primary transmitter and a correct regional version from the relay, not because they were in an area with no reception.
All three relays are sited such that they were in broadly the same direction as Hannington for the homes they were serving, so all the viewers had to do was re-tune their No 3 preset to the more relevant version of Meridian (or a spare preset in addition to the other services). I'm familiar with all three areas, and I've not seen a single aerial ever directed primarily at them. The only impact closing them, would be for viewers who did have the ITV service tuned in on Preset 3, to retune.
Well assuming they are still active (Meridain did away with the Hannington sub opt a couple of years ago) they will die at Rowridge DSO 2 (March 21st). However, they are there to benefit Hannington viewers, so if they are still active, they should be switched off at Hannington DSO 2 (Feb 22nd) otherwise they will cause (even more) confusion !
Why bother? It's one extra pointless shopping channel. It's really not worth me doing this since I'll lose all my recording schedule and have to set them all again. I'll get it on 23 Nov 2011 when Mux C moves away from UHF 67 and becomes Arq A.
I see so when I go thought DSO Mux C becomes Arq A it that right?
Yes. At many sites eg. Emley Moor this happens at DSO2. But Sandy Heath has an extended multi sequence DSO, and DSO2 only gave us the three PSB muxes. 23 Nov 2011 it is just Mux C becoming Arq A on Sandy Heath, no other muxes change. Then next May 2012 (I think), Mux A (the last pre-DSO on Sandy Heath) becomes SDN.
Maybe pointless to you but not to the owners of Mux A or the channel itself which is paying £millions a year to get on Freeview. If no one watches or buys anything from TJC, it won't remain on the platform. Without these channels, Freeview wouldn't exist as mux owners need to fill their muxes to make a profit and there aren't enough "good" (in your eyes) channels to achieve this. I also support slapper channels for the same reason; their cash means that channels like QUEST pay less than if the slapper channels were not allowed on DTT. Paying more could mean that QUEST might not be able to justify its business case for being on Freeview. Variety is the spice of life and a variety of channels on Freeview are the best way to keep a terrestrial FTA service running even if you don't approve of all of them. Sorry for the homily but calling a channel pointless gets my goat.
I believe in public service broadcasting. I want the BBC licence fee to increase. I want BBC4 to have it's own HD channel. Freeview space is a precious resource and it should not be left to raw commercial greed to need pointless wastes of bandwidth like shopping and babe channels to prop it up.
We will have to agree to disagree. I accept that you have a different opinion. It's a shame that my different opinion "gets your goat".
I hate ITV2 but it could not be described as pointless. It is targeted at young women of a certain age that advertisers want to engage with. It is so successful that it is the highest rated FTA channel after the legacy analogue channels.
Using a different word than pointless would not get my goat.
No, there has not been a Re-Tune event since last week and the next one is on the 23 November
Did you do a Re-Tune last week after Wednesday when the 795 channel stopped broadcasting and got replaced with the Jellery Channel on Channel Number 60?
On the PVR, we lose all the scheduled recordings whenever a proper retune is done. You can do a network rescan without losing them all, but I sometimes hit the wrong button and get a full rescan - and today I didn't get a choice, the popup did a full rescan.
All our other TVs have also been asking for retunes at seemingly random intervals for a few weeks now too. Just lately I feel like I need to retune the TV every time there's something on I want to watch!
Out of interest, when the PVR asks 'which region', what is the correct answer to get Sandy Heath? I presume I'm picking up signals from more than one transmitter, but only the ones from Sandy are good enough to watch anyway.
They don't name the transmitters any more. I believe Sandy Heath is shown as "Cambs & Beds". Waltham is called "East Midlands" Belmont is called "East Yorks & Lincs". Emley Moor is called "Yorkshire".
Chris.
It'd be a lot easier if they gave the transmitter name. My parents are receiving from both Emley Moor and Holmfirth, popping up a box offering them "Yorkshire" or "Yorkshire" really doesn't help.
Digital signals are all SFN signals - some happen to come from just one TX site, but this is just due to the specific implementation.
Sudbury and Rouncefall og Beacon Hill and Budleigh Salterton are just two examples where the signals are in fact not specific to just one transmitter.
Such examples will be more common, when DSO passes London and the Meridian area.
Should the 600MHz band be used for layer 7, 8 and 9, real SFN operation will be everywhere - layer 9 even UK-wide.
Having said that - there is extensions to the DVB-T2 standard to enable TX identification - but I don't think it will be implemented in any consumer products.
Lars