I agree. Bond also embodies fairly old-fashioned values like patriotism.
I don't think patriotism is old fashioned.
Some people have tried to make patriotism a dirty word nowadays but you've only got to see how many people turn out for royal weddings or watch tv on big occasions like that to see that patriotism will always be the victor at the end of the day. It's in our nature to be patriotic but I think we're slightly getting off the point here.
I agree. Bond also embodies fairly old-fashioned values like patriotism. He is a product of post-colonial Britain and a black actor just wouldn't work. Don't forget that the film-makers have transformed Felix Leiter into a black guy so I think the box has already been ticked.
In fairness, the most recent Bonds have been far removed from cold war scenarios and have become very 21st century movies. In fact, Skyfall (and as far back as Goldeneye) had in-movie references to Bond being a bit of a relic from a bygone age. They're almost Bourne-like now. I don't see how that the notion of selling Bond as a product of post-colonialism would be that big of an issue going forward. As I said, I first thought "Oh god, no way" to the idea, then wondered what it might be like to have a black Bond. The only downside is that it would feel like a Blaxploitation type of affair, with the choice very glaringly irritating.
There's no reason why a black actor playing James Bond wouldn't "work", but I don't think that's the point. The Ian Fleming books were about a specific fictional individual with specific characteristics, why make such a fundamental change ?
I'm sure you could change the colour (or even gender) of many other fictional characters, and it would "work"..but why would you want do so ?
There's no reason why a black actor playing James Bond wouldn't "work", but I don't think that's the point. The Ian Fleming books were about a specific fictional individual with specific characteristics, why make such a fundamental change ?
I'm sure you could change the colour (or even gender) of many other fictional characters, and it would "work"..but why would you want do so ?
Maybe a person of colour actor may be more suited to the role than that of a white actor? Maybe because novels adapted by hollywood tends to feature predominantly white characters and even when they feature minority characters these roles become whitewashed thus reduces representation of minorities in the media.
Regarding a black James bond, i actually dont see a problem. Just because the source material dictates the features of a character isnt really fundamental to the film. These films are adaptations, thus directors and producers should be able to cast who the hell they want as its their vision and adaptation of the story, not ours. Moreover i dont see the race of the character of James Bond as being fundamental to achieving the pot of the story in comparison to a play like Othello of which it is fundamental to have a person of colour actor in the lead role to achieve the dynamics of the plot. If people want the true james bond, then perhaps they should stick to reading the books.
There's no reason why a black actor playing James Bond wouldn't "work", but I don't think that's the point. The Ian Fleming books were about a specific fictional individual with specific characteristics, why make such a fundamental change ?
I'm sure you could change the colour (or even gender) of many other fictional characters, and it would "work"..but why would you want do so ?
Exactly. The question should not be 'Why not a black Bond?' But 'Why a black Bond?' It's nothing but politically correct box-ticking.
In fairness, the most recent Bonds have been far removed from cold war scenarios and have become very 21st century movies. In fact, Skyfall (and as far back as Goldeneye) had in-movie references to Bond being a bit of a relic from a bygone age. They're almost Bourne-like now. I don't see how that the notion of selling Bond as a product of post-colonialism would be that big of an issue going forward. As I said, I first thought "Oh god, no way" to the idea, then wondered what it might be like to have a black Bond. The only downside is that it would feel like a Blaxploitation type of affair, with the choice very glaringly irritating.
The scenarios may have changed but Bond is essentially the same character. As you say, in Skyfall, he is referred to as a Cold War relic - that's the whole point. I don't see them as Bourne-like at all. Sure, the fighting is now choreographed more realistically but Bourne films weren't the first time this was done. A Bond film is far more character-driven whereas Bourne films tend to be a series of action sequences strung together.
Despite the changes of actor over the years, Bond remains a loner, a killer, a user of women. He dresses well in the classic English style (OK, Moore ballsed it up in the 70s with those ghastly safari suits:o). He's fond of drinking and gambling (he can't smoke anymore but that's a legal requirement). Now there's no reason why a black actor can't also portray those things but, again, why bother unless it's just to tick a box?
It's always the people who say "this is the 21st century" or "we've moved on" or "times have changed" etc who make the biggest issue out of colour.
They're the ones who always say should the next Dr Who be black or a woman. Now it's Bond.
You get people who say things like "colour shouldn't matter". Well if it doesn't matter then why ask the question in the first place. If colour doesn't matter it shouldn't worry these people that he stays white.
When Starsky and Hutch was remade if they said that Huggy Bear was going to be played by a white actor I'd have said NO. He's black, he's always been black and that's the way it should stay.
It's the same with Bond. He's always been white and that's the way it should stay.
You've got to remember that although he's been played by different actors he's still supposed to be the SAME PERSON. Therefore his skin colour wouldn't change so it's a stupid idea anyway.
I hate this era we live in where there are certain people who want to try to change everything as we've always known it just so they can make themselves feel good and tick all these 21st century "oh haven't we moved on, I'm so happy" boxes.
Please, just leave things alone.
It's very much debatable whether each Bond is the same character. Indeed, at the start of OHMSS he says "This never happened to the other fellow", implying that each actor is playing a different person and the name Bond is a in fact a codename, just like 007, or M and Q is. We've had a female M - why not a black 007?
Besides, you are missing the point I feel. People aren't saying Bond should be played by a black actor, just that it wouldn't negatively impact a Bond film if he was. It's got nothing to do with ticking boxes. If the best actor for the job is black, I'm pretty sure most people would just accept it.
It's very much debatable whether each Bond is the same character. Indeed, at the start of OHMSS he says "This never happened to the other fellow", implying that each actor is playing a different person and the name Bond is a in fact a codename, just like 007, or M and Q is. We've had a female M - why not a black 007?
That was something my dad always used to assert, that "James Bond 007" was the complete alias for a number of people. He even once tried to suggest that all the Bond actors would appear in one movie.
In this more sophisticated and realistic reboot franchise, I can't see them just replacing Craig with a different actor and pretending it's the same Bond anyway.
That was something my dad always used to assert, that "James Bond 007" was the complete alias for a number of people. He even once tried to suggest that all the Bond actors would appear in one movie.
Casino Royale did give a good bit of weight to that popular idea - a new Bond getting his licence to kill from an old M, with Brosnan either dead or retired on island somewhere. But then Skyfall shot that idea dead and proved CR to be just a straight forward reboot with the same actress playing M. Of course you could say all the pre-reboot Bond's were just alias but then didn't Moore mention Lazenby's wife or something?
You could argue that people probably started sounding the death knell for the series way back when Lazenby replaced Bond for OHMSS. An Aussie playing Bond? Heresy!
Or Moore replacing Connery.
Or Dalton replacing Moore.
Or Brosnan replacing Dalton.
Or Craig replacing Brosnan
But the series has survived many changes and reboots, changes of actors both main character and the peripheral characters.
It's very much debatable whether each Bond is the same character. Indeed, at the start of OHMSS he says "This never happened to the other fellow", implying that each actor is playing a different person and the name Bond is a in fact a codename, just like 007, or M and Q is. We've had a female M - why not a black 007?
Besides, you are missing the point I feel. People aren't saying Bond should be played by a black actor, just that it wouldn't negatively impact a Bond film if he was. It's got nothing to do with ticking boxes. If the best actor for the job is black, I'm pretty sure most people would just accept it.
Of course he's the same character. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that all these different actors are playing different characters but they all happen to be called James Bond. Yeah right.
The "This never happened to the other fellow" quote from OHMSS was just a joke line. It was so obvious it was a joke line for the simple fact that it was the first time we'd seen a Bond film without Connery and the script writers or director was probably trying to get the audience to warm to Lazenby by trying to show he hadn't lost his dry sense of humour instead of just sitting there saying "he's rubbish compared to Connery". You've got to remember that back in those days Bond films had quite a few funny lines and funny characters at times. They were far more enjoyable than the modern, totally serious, in yer face, everything happening at 100 mph rubbish.
As someone else said, in The spy who loved me Barbara Bach's character (Anya) mentioned to Bond about him being married. That was when Bond basically told her to her to shut up because it was a reference to his wife that was killed at the end of OHMSS. That was Lazenby's Bond that was married not Roger Moore's. Of course, all the people who want a black Bond would desperately do their utmost to look for the smallest tiniest piece of evidence that they were different people.
It works the other way round as well. Would I want a white man playing Shaft, Mr T, Huggy Bear, Virgil Tibbs. NO.
I don't see the point in having a black Bond just because there hasn't been one, wouldn't want it done just to create abit of history. It's pathetic that people are against the idea imo what bloody difference does it make. Though i'm not a big Bond fan, I do love Daniel Craig and his beautiful physique
Exactly. The question should not be 'Why not a black Bond?' But 'Why a black Bond?' It's nothing but politically correct box-ticking.
Precisely. There would be nothing wrong with remaking The Maltese Falcon with a black Sam Spade, or The Big Sleep with a black Philip Marlowe, but why would anyone do it ?
Doesn't it make more sense to keep any fictional character as close as possible to how the author intended ?
Of course he's the same character. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that all these different actors are playing different characters but they all happen to be called James Bond. Yeah right.
I said it was debatable. The truth is that the timeline and back story of the character is changed from film to film to suit the story.
Of course, all the people who want a black Bond would desperately do their utmost to look for the smallest tiniest piece of evidence that they were different people.
It works the other way round as well. Would I want a white man playing Shaft, Mr T, Huggy Bear, Virgil Tibbs. NO.
Once again, people aren't actively campaigning for a black bond. They are just saying they don't think it really matters either way. Given the changes the character has undergone over the course of the films though, it's fairly obvious why people would entertain a black bond more than a black Shaft (et al).
I am not against a "Black Bond" I can see why people would be with the literary character being white and all. But I personally never read the books and always found that with each new actor the character changes ever so slightly so I often think of James Bond being a name that is assumed by the latest 007 (I know it's not this way but it is how I look at it) so then a black actor playing the role wouldn't be an issue at all.
I however would hope it is not Idris Elba, not because I dislike the actor I think he is great in Luther and The Wire. But I find that he tends the play the same character and it involves a lot of shouty performances so I would be worried he be doing the same thing again.
It works the other way round as well. Would I want a white man playing Shaft, Mr T, Huggy Bear, Virgil Tibbs. NO.
Different situations. Being streetwise black men is part of the defining characteristics of Shaft and Huggy. Same with Mr Tibbs who needed to be black in order to be a foil to the racism that was part of the plot. Mr T is a real person, not a character that can be played by different people. I think you may have meant BA.
Comments
Some people have tried to make patriotism a dirty word nowadays but you've only got to see how many people turn out for royal weddings or watch tv on big occasions like that to see that patriotism will always be the victor at the end of the day. It's in our nature to be patriotic but I think we're slightly getting off the point here.
In fairness, the most recent Bonds have been far removed from cold war scenarios and have become very 21st century movies. In fact, Skyfall (and as far back as Goldeneye) had in-movie references to Bond being a bit of a relic from a bygone age. They're almost Bourne-like now. I don't see how that the notion of selling Bond as a product of post-colonialism would be that big of an issue going forward. As I said, I first thought "Oh god, no way" to the idea, then wondered what it might be like to have a black Bond. The only downside is that it would feel like a Blaxploitation type of affair, with the choice very glaringly irritating.
I'm sure you could change the colour (or even gender) of many other fictional characters, and it would "work"..but why would you want do so ?
Maybe a person of colour actor may be more suited to the role than that of a white actor? Maybe because novels adapted by hollywood tends to feature predominantly white characters and even when they feature minority characters these roles become whitewashed thus reduces representation of minorities in the media.
Regarding a black James bond, i actually dont see a problem. Just because the source material dictates the features of a character isnt really fundamental to the film. These films are adaptations, thus directors and producers should be able to cast who the hell they want as its their vision and adaptation of the story, not ours. Moreover i dont see the race of the character of James Bond as being fundamental to achieving the pot of the story in comparison to a play like Othello of which it is fundamental to have a person of colour actor in the lead role to achieve the dynamics of the plot. If people want the true james bond, then perhaps they should stick to reading the books.
Exactly. The question should not be 'Why not a black Bond?' But 'Why a black Bond?' It's nothing but politically correct box-ticking.
The scenarios may have changed but Bond is essentially the same character. As you say, in Skyfall, he is referred to as a Cold War relic - that's the whole point. I don't see them as Bourne-like at all. Sure, the fighting is now choreographed more realistically but Bourne films weren't the first time this was done. A Bond film is far more character-driven whereas Bourne films tend to be a series of action sequences strung together.
Despite the changes of actor over the years, Bond remains a loner, a killer, a user of women. He dresses well in the classic English style (OK, Moore ballsed it up in the 70s with those ghastly safari suits:o). He's fond of drinking and gambling (he can't smoke anymore but that's a legal requirement). Now there's no reason why a black actor can't also portray those things but, again, why bother unless it's just to tick a box?
how big is that ancestry ? cos according to the BBC there have been black people living in Britain since at least the 12 century.
Micheal Kitchen played Bill Tanner before Rory Kinnear.
He appeared as BT alongside Charles Robinson in The World Is Not Enough, so not really a substitute in a true sense.
It's very much debatable whether each Bond is the same character. Indeed, at the start of OHMSS he says "This never happened to the other fellow", implying that each actor is playing a different person and the name Bond is a in fact a codename, just like 007, or M and Q is. We've had a female M - why not a black 007?
Besides, you are missing the point I feel. People aren't saying Bond should be played by a black actor, just that it wouldn't negatively impact a Bond film if he was. It's got nothing to do with ticking boxes. If the best actor for the job is black, I'm pretty sure most people would just accept it.
That was something my dad always used to assert, that "James Bond 007" was the complete alias for a number of people. He even once tried to suggest that all the Bond actors would appear in one movie.
Casino Royale did give a good bit of weight to that popular idea - a new Bond getting his licence to kill from an old M, with Brosnan either dead or retired on island somewhere. But then Skyfall shot that idea dead and proved CR to be just a straight forward reboot with the same actress playing M. Of course you could say all the pre-reboot Bond's were just alias but then didn't Moore mention Lazenby's wife or something?
You could argue that people probably started sounding the death knell for the series way back when Lazenby replaced Bond for OHMSS. An Aussie playing Bond? Heresy!
Or Moore replacing Connery.
Or Dalton replacing Moore.
Or Brosnan replacing Dalton.
Or Craig replacing Brosnan
But the series has survived many changes and reboots, changes of actors both main character and the peripheral characters.
It's just another change.
The "This never happened to the other fellow" quote from OHMSS was just a joke line. It was so obvious it was a joke line for the simple fact that it was the first time we'd seen a Bond film without Connery and the script writers or director was probably trying to get the audience to warm to Lazenby by trying to show he hadn't lost his dry sense of humour instead of just sitting there saying "he's rubbish compared to Connery". You've got to remember that back in those days Bond films had quite a few funny lines and funny characters at times. They were far more enjoyable than the modern, totally serious, in yer face, everything happening at 100 mph rubbish.
As someone else said, in The spy who loved me Barbara Bach's character (Anya) mentioned to Bond about him being married. That was when Bond basically told her to her to shut up because it was a reference to his wife that was killed at the end of OHMSS. That was Lazenby's Bond that was married not Roger Moore's. Of course, all the people who want a black Bond would desperately do their utmost to look for the smallest tiniest piece of evidence that they were different people.
It works the other way round as well. Would I want a white man playing Shaft, Mr T, Huggy Bear, Virgil Tibbs. NO.
Precisely. There would be nothing wrong with remaking The Maltese Falcon with a black Sam Spade, or The Big Sleep with a black Philip Marlowe, but why would anyone do it ?
Doesn't it make more sense to keep any fictional character as close as possible to how the author intended ?
I said it was debatable. The truth is that the timeline and back story of the character is changed from film to film to suit the story.
Once again, people aren't actively campaigning for a black bond. They are just saying they don't think it really matters either way. Given the changes the character has undergone over the course of the films though, it's fairly obvious why people would entertain a black bond more than a black Shaft (et al).
I however would hope it is not Idris Elba, not because I dislike the actor I think he is great in Luther and The Wire. But I find that he tends the play the same character and it involves a lot of shouty performances so I would be worried he be doing the same thing again.
Chiwetel Ejiofor would be a good choice for me.
Worst Scrabble hand ever.:D
Different situations. Being streetwise black men is part of the defining characteristics of Shaft and Huggy. Same with Mr Tibbs who needed to be black in order to be a foil to the racism that was part of the plot. Mr T is a real person, not a character that can be played by different people. I think you may have meant BA.