You're assuming your personal experience corresponds with that of most viewers.
I think you should possibly take a step back and apply that post to the way you are reacting here.
You, are a massive Dr who fan, you know every line of history. Most of the 8 million ish people that watch, will at most watch every week and have a basic background knowledge of what happened over the years in Classic Dr Who.
They might have watched the Baker era, the Pertwee era or an infinite random combination of these, very very few people are aware of every aspect of Dr Who history and the writers have to take this into account, and we can see this in how they have dealt with older characters coming back in this past.
You have to appreciate that the level of Dr Who knowledge you have puts you in a Tiny minority. By the general public's standard I'm a hardcore Dr Who geek.
Nope i've dealt with this directly before although possibly in a different thread, the Master, Davros ect are such big parts of Dr Who mythology that the general public beyond hardcore who fans know who they are.
Comparing The Master and Davros with The Meddling Monk is simply silly. Pretty much every parent watching with their kids would have known The Master and Davros from the classic series. Well loved enemies from the past. Can that be said of The Monk?
Well, I'd agree about Davros. His look alone (half-man, half-Dalek) is such a striking image that he lingered in the public consciousness for years, and his name became a standard insult in comedy shows towards anyone in a wheelchair! (Little Britain and Phoenix Nights being two examples where it was used!) But I disagree with regards to The Master. Pre-2007 there can't have been many people outside fandom who remembered who he was, as visually he's just "bloke-in-a-suit".
Also (and copy this for future pasting because I'm really done saying it), they were carefully introduced as new characters who stood alone in the new series with no prior knowledge required to enjoy them.
Well exactly, why can't the same be done with other, less known characters? Nobody's suggesting bringing back old characters in such a way that you need "prior knowledge to enjoy them".
The Meddling Monk... Sigh....
As I said, I'm not actually arguing that the Monk *is* going to come back anytime soon, (he just happened to be the character mentioned by the OP), I'm just saying that it's possible for any character, no matter how obscure, to be re-introduced in exactly the way you described, as a brand-new (to the general audience) character. Their previous level of "fame" has nothing to do with it.
Well, I'd agree about Davros. His look alone (half-man, half-Dalek) is such a striking image that he lingered in the public consciousness for years, and his name became a standard insult in comedy shows towards anyone in a wheelchair! (Little Britain and Phoenix Nights being two examples where it was used!) But I disagree with regards to The Master. Pre-2007 there can't have been many people outside fandom who remembered who he was, as visually he's just "bloke-in-a-suit".
Well exactly, why can't the same be done with other, less known characters? Nobody's suggesting bringing back old characters in such a way that you need "prior knowledge to enjoy them".
As I said, I'm not actually arguing that the Monk *is* going to come back anytime soon, (he just happened to be the character mentioned by the OP), I'm just saying that it's possible for any character, no matter how obscure, to be re-introduced in exactly the way you described, as a brand-new (to the general audience) character. Their previous level of "fame" has nothing to do with it.
I'd have to disagree with you there. It is quite widely known that the Master is the Doctor's 'Moriarty'.
I have to agree with neel that having someone like The Meddling Monk as the big bad for this year would be terribly ill-advised, as there has been no prior exposition.
Saying that, though, it could happen and it could be handled well.
I'd have to disagree with you there. It is quite widely known that the Master is the Doctor's 'Moriarty'.
I have to agree with neel that having someone like The Meddling Monk as the big bad for this year would be terribly ill-advised, as there has been no prior exposition.
Saying that, though, it could happen and it could be handled well.
Yes. Thank you for making that point, i'm listening to "I'm sorry i haven't a clue" so i gave up replying
I'd love to see all the characters mentioned back btw, i just don't think it will happen next week
Are you guys (tingram and Mansun) not willing to accept that there is a significant difference in public awareness of Davros or the Master and the Meddling Monk? And that this may impact the way you can treat them in a narrative.
Sure there's a difference, but it's utterly irrelevant. To the overwhelming majority of viewers, (especially young kids) EVERY character is brand new, and are written and introduced in such a way as to be perfectly clear and understandable to all viewers.
Finally using Rasilion as an example isn't really a good comparison. The significant thing there was the return of the timelords, new viewers would be well aware that the time lords existed. Rasilion being Rasilion was in no way significant to that story, I had no idea who Rasilion was at the time and just saw it as "big important time lord" as i'm sure did most viewers.
Which is exactly my point! That's exactly the type of re-introduction I'm talking about. It would have made zero difference to yours or anyone else's enjoyment/understanding of that story if he had been called Rassilon or Borusa or Mortimus (the monk's real name!) or had been a new character.
And likewise Utopia would have worked just as well if it had featured the Monk or the Rani or anyone else, or again a brand new Time Lord character. Previous levels of recognition amongst the public have nothing to do with it provided the episode is well-written. The audience will accept any old character in the same way they accept every new character. Mainly because most of them don't even know they're old characters!
And likewise Utopia would have worked just as well if it had featured the Monk or the Rani or anyone else, or again a brand new Time Lord character. Previous levels of recognition amongst the public have nothing to do with it provided the episode is well-written. The audience will accept any old character in the same way they accept every new character. Mainly because most of them don't even know they're old characters!
The result of the "plan" is the destruction of the universe...
The Monk isn't Evil - He's an imp, he does things for amusement to see the effect. He has no interest in Destroying everything in the universe. The universe would be boring afterwards.
The Rani is a scientist - She sits in her own little corner and does her experiments. Keep out of her little corner and she'll leave you alone. No interest in destroying the universe, other than perhaps to see if it could be done, and then what is she going to do?
The Master and Davros are conquerers. A destroyed universe has noone to conquier and noone to control.
Omega is angry and wants revenge against the universe and people that abandoned him to his anti-matter prison. I can see him being angry enough to destroy the universe.
The result of the "plan" is the destruction of the universe...
The Monk isn't Evil - He's an imp, he does things for amusement to see the effect. He has no interest in Destroying everything in the universe. The universe would be boring afterwards.
The Rani is a scientist - She sits in her own little corner and does her experiments. Keep out of her little corner and she'll leave you alone. No interest in destroying the universe.
The Master and Davros are conquerers. A destroyed universe has noone to conquier and noone to control.
Omega is angry and wants revenge against the universe and people that abandoned him to his anti-matter prison. I can see him being angry enough to destroy the universe.
Who's left?
As I've said several times, I'm not actually suggesting the Monk will be back next week! I'm just talking in general about the methods of re-introducing old characters, not about what's happening in the current story.
Though, funnily enough, there are persistent rumours/spoilers over on Gallifrey Base about the possible return of an old character, with some even suggesting that The Big Bang will end with a shot of
Omega, sitting on his throne! :eek:
No idea if that's actually true, it could be rubbish, but if it does happen I'll laugh my arse off after all thats been said on here about the unlikelihood of big reveals of random obscure characters!
As I've said several times, I'm not actually suggesting the Monk will be back next week! I'm just talking in general about the methods of re-introducing old characters, not about what's happening in the current story.
Though, funnily enough, there are persistent rumours/spoilers over on Gallifrey Base about the possible return of an old character, with some even suggesting that The Big Bang will end with a shot of
Omega, sitting on his throne! :eek:
No idea if that's actually true, it could be rubbish, but if it does happen I'll laugh my arse off after all thats been said on here about the unlikelihood of big reveals of random obscure characters!
If that happens I will hold my hand up and say "I was quite wrong".
It'll be the Doctor, and yes even that failed Tardis will be his too. I thought the end explained it well, the alliance locked up The Doctor in the box because he was the most feared one (all of them fear him). The big bang is caused because the Tardis is out of control and only The Doctor could solve that. By locking him up, the silence has fallen. The Doctor somehow goes back in time, causing a paradox using a different failed Tardis. Amy was the trap, the cracks is the paradox that The Doctor has caused.
I doubt there is any big evil to this story, its all leading to The Doctor and even the past shows have hinted at it.
Who's to say The Meddlng Monk wsn't the Master in his earlier days?
The Monk and the Master are two separate characters. Even if that hadn't been established in the novels and in a dozen reference books, they have totally different motivations-the Master is a would-be ruler of the universe, Mortimus is just an annoying meddler who does things to see what will happen. He's not really a villain.
No, they won't use a character who (to the general viewing public at least) is fairly obscure as the big bad of a series.
Saying that I would love to see him back in an episode, I think his modus operandi is far more interesting than the Master's and far more fitting for a renegade Timelord - meddling with time as opposed to taking over the planet/universe, etc (which nearly every villain wants to do). Plus Peter Butterworth gave a lovely performance.
As for him being dead - it's more than likely that the Monk (if you watch the episodes he was in) is the type of character who would of done a runner and hid as soon as the Time War broke out. So with the handy old fob watch he could easily be about some where.
Just please don't let him be played by the dull and monotoned Patrick Stewart. Shame Toby Jones has already played the Dreamlord.
How about giving Peter Butterworth's son, Tyler the gig??
Well, for a start because it's incorrect. The Brigadier was last seen on TV in the Sarah Jane Adventures in 2008, which is only two years ago. The Rani last appeared in 1987 (23 years ago), the Valeyard in 1985 (25 years ago) and Omega and Susan in 1983 (27 years ago). 1983 was also the last time Rassillon-who resurfaced last year-and K9-who resurfaced in 2006-were seen on TV, so I fail to see the problem. Particularly since Jo Grant is about to reappear after 37 years!
I think this raises the issue that BBC3 or BBC4 should at least be showing old Dr Who episodes...
...even if I have seen the majority of them already
Not sure but there may be a broadcast rights issue preventing that at this time. Though even if not, the powers-that-Beeb are probably content to milk the DVD releases instead of showing them on freeview. Much as I wish they would show them...
P.S. also thought Benedict Wong would be good. A good actor who's also had a number of comedic roles (like Butterworth). In this incarnation he could be a buddhist monk.
I agree, they should show all the existing episodes,starting with "Unearthly Child".
Good idea. Considering some Beeb channels don't start till 7.00pm, they could fill loads of airtime up very cheaply. And give something to enjoy rather than crappy reality tv!
Good idea. Considering some Beeb channels don't start till 7.00pm, they could fill loads of airtime up very cheaply. And give something to enjoy rather than crappy reality tv!
The problem there is those channels are actually broadcasting on freeview. CBeebies and CBBC use the same spectrum that BBC3/4 are using - Freeview assigns the channel number to whichever channel is using it at that time.
The problem there is those channels are actually broadcasting on freeview. CBeebies and CBBC use the same spectrum that BBC3/4 are using - Freeview assigns the channel number to whichever channel is using it at that time.
Good point! Was just a suggestion. There's plenty of channels that could be utilised in some way, so it would be nice!
Comments
I think you should possibly take a step back and apply that post to the way you are reacting here.
You, are a massive Dr who fan, you know every line of history. Most of the 8 million ish people that watch, will at most watch every week and have a basic background knowledge of what happened over the years in Classic Dr Who.
They might have watched the Baker era, the Pertwee era or an infinite random combination of these, very very few people are aware of every aspect of Dr Who history and the writers have to take this into account, and we can see this in how they have dealt with older characters coming back in this past.
You have to appreciate that the level of Dr Who knowledge you have puts you in a Tiny minority. By the general public's standard I'm a hardcore Dr Who geek.
...even if I have seen the majority of them already
This would make me very very happy. I'm sure they could shift a repeat of "bizarre ER" for a Dr Who episode every day
I'd have to disagree with you there. It is quite widely known that the Master is the Doctor's 'Moriarty'.
I have to agree with neel that having someone like The Meddling Monk as the big bad for this year would be terribly ill-advised, as there has been no prior exposition.
Saying that, though, it could happen and it could be handled well.
Yes. Thank you for making that point, i'm listening to "I'm sorry i haven't a clue" so i gave up replying
I'd love to see all the characters mentioned back btw, i just don't think it will happen next week
And likewise Utopia would have worked just as well if it had featured the Monk or the Rani or anyone else, or again a brand new Time Lord character. Previous levels of recognition amongst the public have nothing to do with it provided the episode is well-written. The audience will accept any old character in the same way they accept every new character. Mainly because most of them don't even know they're old characters!
Excellent post, I thoroughly agree.:cool:
I'm also I huge fan of the band Mansun
The result of the "plan" is the destruction of the universe...
The Monk isn't Evil - He's an imp, he does things for amusement to see the effect. He has no interest in Destroying everything in the universe. The universe would be boring afterwards.
The Rani is a scientist - She sits in her own little corner and does her experiments. Keep out of her little corner and she'll leave you alone. No interest in destroying the universe, other than perhaps to see if it could be done, and then what is she going to do?
The Master and Davros are conquerers. A destroyed universe has noone to conquier and noone to control.
Omega is angry and wants revenge against the universe and people that abandoned him to his anti-matter prison. I can see him being angry enough to destroy the universe.
Who's left?
Though, funnily enough, there are persistent rumours/spoilers over on Gallifrey Base about the possible return of an old character, with some even suggesting that The Big Bang will end with a shot of
If that happens I will hold my hand up and say "I was quite wrong".
I agree, they should show all the existing episodes,starting with "Unearthly Child".
I doubt there is any big evil to this story, its all leading to The Doctor and even the past shows have hinted at it.
How about giving Peter Butterworth's son, Tyler the gig??
I've always thought Reece Shearsmith would be a good fit for the role.
I remember the old FASA Dr Who Role Playing Game of the 90's stated that he actually was!
Without any evidence to back it up and in direct contradiction of everything else that's ever been written about the character.
Good idea. Considering some Beeb channels don't start till 7.00pm, they could fill loads of airtime up very cheaply. And give something to enjoy rather than crappy reality tv!
The problem there is those channels are actually broadcasting on freeview. CBeebies and CBBC use the same spectrum that BBC3/4 are using - Freeview assigns the channel number to whichever channel is using it at that time.
Good point! Was just a suggestion. There's plenty of channels that could be utilised in some way, so it would be nice!