True. I also think this season has to be wake up call for all fans to realise how behind Liverpool has been. It's not going to take 3 seasons to challenge for the top 4. It's taken Arsenal many years to get to where they are. I suspect they will challenge for the title soon.
The reason for where we are now. Is not down to Rodgers it's because of 25 years of poor owners and leadership who failed to build the club properly.
The club is having to restructure, play catch up and it's going to take time. Players will start to come through the youth system but it's not going to happen yet.
We were very lucky to have Suarez last season, Gerrard for as long as we did who paved over the hidden cracks.
Liverpool for the amount of fame it has had should already be a self sufficient money making club like United and Arsenal has been with shops all over the place drumming up money. The club over the last few years has started to rectify this. But United was a successful PLC business before the Glaziers came in. Arsenal has built brand new stadium and are starting to reap the benefits.
Moaning about Rodgers is not the answer, nor is it to blame our situation on the current owners to be fair even though they have strange policies.
A thought has struck me that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere yet. For all we know Rodgers could end up just quitting - how long was his contract under current terms?
IF he has had to pass by the committee every purchase he has made, and been over-ruled at times (I strongly suspect this), he might just say, sod it, I'm off to a club that will let me make my own selections. He is still very young in managerial age, and could decide just to start again with another club - on his terms.
It's as likely a scenario as LFC sacking him frankly, and him doing that, stating he was fed up of being told who to buy would be better for him getting another post.
Just a passing thought.
dont see BR walking out to be honest. the mixture of not completing what he started and the fact it would cost FSG £10m to sack him both play a huge part.
BR isnt walking and FSG wont be sacking him in the summer.
dont see BR walking out to be honest. the mixture of not completing what he started and the fact it would cost FSG £10m to sack him both play a huge part.
BR isnt walking and FSG wont be sacking him in the summer.
FSG were ruthless when they sacked Kenny & that's despite winning the League Cup with Kenny manager, & after last season this season is miles step backwards.
FSG were ruthless when they sacked Kenny & that's despite winning the League Cup with Kenny manager, & after last season this season is miles step backwards.
you have decided to forget the terrible league form under kenny. the terrible football and the way he handled the luis suarez situation.
all 3 of them played a part in why kenny was let go.
also kenny was never a long term option for FSG. kenny was always gonna go once they found the man they wanted and that was BR.
What about the terrible football under BR? Or has every performance been up to standard?
Nobody has said every performance has been great but if you think the way we were playing under Kenny is anywhere near what we have under BR then you are delusional.
Fans reaching back into the last Kenny reign and plucking a sketchy League Cup win over a Championship side as something of a yardstick baffle me.
We never looked like competing for the top 4, let alone the title, under Kenny and the football was based around launching balls to Andy Carroll. He even bought Downing to specifically supply the ammunition. Balls sailed over Suarez's head often, criminally under-using our best player.
The football was effort over style and this club don't play that way. It also aims for the league, not the League Cup.
Kenny's disastrous PR was the bitter icing on a very stale cake. Sadly, he had to go. Football has moved on.
BR has made mistakes, of course he has as a young manager, but we more often than not have played attractive football, some of the best I've seen from a Liverpool side since the late Eighties.
He got the most out of Suarez before the magical Uruguayan inevitably left.
Had we had Sturridge for 30+ league games this season, I doubt we'd be struggling under an avalanche of angst right now - a fit Sturridge would easily have made up that points difference between 5th and the top 4. Seven league goals from winger as our top scorer says it all - the worst haul in the top seven by a range of 5-13 goals.
The huge error was Balotelli. As an option off the bench, maybe. However, the majority in that lamentable transfer committee had taken into account a possible Sturridge long term injury they would surely had thought better of it - he's never been someone who can lead the line. We couldn't shift Borini and players like Sanchez favoured the lights of the capital. It was gamble time and we lost.
Until we know the mechanics of that committee, fans cannot blame Rodgers entirely for the failed buys. Some of them have been injury ravaged and some have been floored by bad form - neither were predictable except by the hindsight brigade.
The saddest aspect has been Gerrard. He;s a broken man, mentally and physically and I don't think anyone, BR included, expected such a rapid decline. He was running on adrenalin last season, pushing himself too far in the pursuit of something he would have loved to bring back to Anfield and that would have been a fitting legacy. Instead, we've got a haunted, angry and resigned shadow of a player and it's horrifying to see his career end in this way.
Next season lessons must be learned by all and the purchases have to be spot on and hopefully based on football rather than finance. Brendan needs a decent crack at a season with a full hand in terms of strikers. He needs to accept (and I suspect he already has) that Lovren isn't mentally up for being a cornerstone of our defence.
Emre Can IS the ideal replacement at the base of midfield so we need to find two defenders. Along with two viable strikers - perhaps one if we gamble on Origi fulfilling his obvious promise.
A lot of last season's business was about bulking out the squad - and many of the buys are fine for that role. I'd reluctantly sell Sterling to finance a stellar name up front if necessary - the disruption cannot continue into next season. If he wants to go, let's face facts and cash in while we can. Any inkling of not wanting to play for this great club should be met with very short shrift.
I've fed up with the knee jerking - I truly can't see why some fans can't see there are contributing factors outside of BR's control that have derailed things this year yet the general progression is surely upwards - we're so much better than the mess we were when he arrived. We've not got the money nor the allure to attract the kind of manager/player some fans want at the club so let's get real, stop bleating and support the club. It's a time to be rational.
After yesterday there was always likely to be a lot of debate so I'll put my tuppenth in too!!
2 of my favourite ever figures from LFC history are Luis Suarez and Kenny Dalglish and the dismissal of Kenny in May 2012 still leaves a bit of a bad taste with me. Some seem to describe that season as the all time low - no that was Hodgson in the autumn of 2010 and from where the club was when he took over Kenny did an amazing job. He gave us back our rpide. Consider that In the 10 away league games under RH we lost 7, won just 1 (by an 85th minute goal at Bolton in an awful game) and drew 2 ((at Wigan and Bham). we also lost at home to Blackpool, Wolves who were way bottom of the league at the time and got knocked out the League Cup at Anfield by Northampton who were near the bottom of the 4th tier at the time. From his appointment to the end of the season KD did great including wins at CFC and scoring 5 at Fulham so FSG had to give him the job - we even almost got into Europe which was remarkable when you consider that we were below half way when he took over.
The transfer business in the summer was not great - some good but a lot of average or poor and we were ripped off a lot but even so we started the next season well winning away at both Arsenal and Chelsea before Christmas and also had some good home wins - such results were totally impossible to contemplate under Roy. Then came the Evra nonsense which more than anything derailed our season and deprived us of Luis for the whole of January - when he came back top 4 looked unlikely and so it proved. LS had been good pre Evra but apart from his usual Carrow Road master class his form in the second half of the season was his worst in his time at LFC. Overall the team struggled. Nevertheless we did get to both domestic cup finals on the way beating Man City the champions and Chelsea in the League Cup and our 2 biggest domestic rivals in the FA Cup - Everton and Man United as well as scoring 5 V Oldham and 6 V Brighton. So despite the disappointing form in the PL we had had a lot of excitement as fans that season including a trophy for the first time for ages. KD was then dismissed. The home form in the PL had probably been a major factor in this as it was so un LFC like with just 6 wins all season I think.
BR a young manager was appointed and it was a thankless task for him to replace such a legend but after a stuttering start he did OK in the first season and in the second season with LS at his best we came 2nd. He had won us as fans around and we hoped the PL title would not be long arriving. The football was attractive and exciting almost every game and we scored 101 PL goals far more than we had ever done before. Then disaster - LS left and this season we have done nowhere near as well with the players signed with the Suarez money largely not doing that well although some as young players show promise for the future. Also this season the football has often been poor in quality altho we have had times when we have lived up to the saying of winning when we did not play that well which is a good habit to have. The form in both European games and the majority of the most important fixtures has been a major worry
Maybe that history lesson as a sort of preamble was unnecessary but it is how I see the last 5 years at our club - and from comments since yesterdays match I think some would differ with me.
The question now is what to do now? - I do reject talk that is too pessimistic as I always like to look positively on the future and think with an inspired signing or two we could do well again next season (meaning top 4) as we do have the basis for a good young team.
However it is clear to me some issues need addressing like
The transfer committee?
How can we improve in Europe?
Why have we underperformed in many major games?
Raheem Sterling?
Mario Ballotelli?
Replacing Gerrard?
My opinion which I feel pretty strongly is that the transfer committee needs to be far more transparent and probably needs radical changes in it if not scrapping. I do not want Mario at our club next season nor Ricky either as I want people likely to score and they do not fit that description. We cannot lose 31 goals after the LS sale and not expect to drop. I also think Raheem would not be missed that much on the field (with Ibe and others ready to step up) and off it he has become a distraction so if he was let go I would not be that unhappy - also the money raised would come in handy - but it does seem as if the club do not envisage selling which is a concern. I think a dynamic midfielder ready to go into the team is needed - Pjankic (or however you spell it!!) and a proven striker and also a 'number 10' to assist Studge. Defensively I think there are less needs but I think Lovren has been a failure and want him out and a replacement bought for him - altho for me Skrtel and Sakho are OK but you do need other options and Kolo is showing his age somewhat - but he should be kept too as I think he is a good influence in the dressing room being a winner.
I am not in favour of BR leaving altho I do agree he has made mistakes but he deserves more time. I do think tho lots of LFC legends like Thommo, Carra, God, Didi, John Barnes and others all speak with a lot of sense about how we have gone wrong so some frank talking off the record between BR and some of these guys would be a good idea and maybe bringing one of them in to assist would be another good way to freshen things up. Klopp is my favourite possible replacement if FSG did choose to get rid of BR and also maybe Simeone should be considered altho the latter may be hard to get and Klopp will go to a new club this summer and if it is not us then he will bed in there and will never end up at Anfield.
But as I have said I hope FSG stick with BR for now. If by this time next season we feel that no progress has been seen to be made then that is the time when changes would have to be considered.
Fans reaching back into the last Kenny reign and plucking a sketchy League Cup win over a Championship side as something of a yardstick baffle me.
We never looked like competing for the top 4, let alone the title, under Kenny and the football was based around launching balls to Andy Carroll. He even bought Downing to specifically supply the ammunition. Balls sailed over Suarez's head often, criminally under-using our best player.
The football was effort over style and this club don't play that way. It also aims for the league, not the League Cup.
Kenny's disastrous PR was the bitter icing on a very stale cake. Sadly, he had to go. Football has moved on.
BR has made mistakes, of course he has as a young manager, but we more often than not have played attractive football, some of the best I've seen from a Liverpool side since the late Eighties.
He got the most out of Suarez before the magical Uruguayan inevitably left.
Had we had Sturridge for 30+ league games this season, I doubt we'd be struggling under an avalanche of angst right now - a fit Sturridge would easily have made up that points difference between 5th and the top 4. Seven league goals from winger as our top scorer says it all - the worst haul in the top seven by a range of 5-13 goals.
The huge error was Balotelli. As an option off the bench, maybe. However, the majority in that lamentable transfer committee had taken into account a possible Sturridge long term injury they would surely had thought better of it - he's never been someone who can lead the line. We couldn't shift Borini and players like Sanchez favoured the lights of the capital. It was gamble time and we lost.
Until we know the mechanics of that committee, fans cannot blame Rodgers entirely for the failed buys. Some of them have been injury ravaged and some have been floored by bad form - neither were predictable except by the hindsight brigade.
The saddest aspect has been Gerrard. He;s a broken man, mentally and physically and I don't think anyone, BR included, expected such a rapid decline. He was running on adrenalin last season, pushing himself too far in the pursuit of something he would have loved to bring back to Anfield and that would have been a fitting legacy. Instead, we've got a haunted, angry and resigned shadow of a player and it's horrifying to see his career end in this way.
Next season lessons must be learned by all and the purchases have to be spot on and hopefully based on football rather than finance. Brendan needs a decent crack at a season with a full hand in terms of strikers. He needs to accept (and I suspect he already has) that Lovren isn't mentally up for being a cornerstone of our defence.
Emre Can IS the ideal replacement at the base of midfield so we need to find two defenders. Along with two viable strikers - perhaps one if we gamble on Origi fulfilling his obvious promise.
A lot of last season's business was about bulking out the squad - and many of the buys are fine for that role. I'd reluctantly sell Sterling to finance a stellar name up front if necessary - the disruption cannot continue into next season. If he wants to go, let's face facts and cash in while we can. Any inkling of not wanting to play for this great club should be met with very short shrift.
I've fed up with the knee jerking - I truly can't see why some fans can't see there are contributing factors outside of BR's control that have derailed things this year yet the general progression is surely upwards - we're so much better than the mess we were when he arrived. We've not got the money nor the allure to attract the kind of manager/player some fans want at the club so let's get real, stop bleating and support the club. It's a time to be rational.
Is Can that player? He seems like more of a box to Box midfield player to me.
We need someone who can do what Lucas does but fitter. A very good reader of the game who may not be the most mobile but is very adapt at putting themselves into the right positions. Also a player who is fine with taking the ball with their back to goal and a good passer. I don't think Can is that player.
Allen isn't even that player. Allen isn't really a holding midfield player and excels playing further forward.
Newcastle fan here I come in peace (I can hardly say anything we've been shit this season as well ) . I just wanted to ask you guys where you think it's all gone wrong , which players would you sell, would you keep BR and is it true some Liverpool fans can't wait to see the back of Slipp, ,, oooh sorry Stevie G
The media are going on about our league position but compared to City who does have a world class manager, who have spent millions on players, who does have billionaire owners and did win the league last year our blip is not as bad. Where did United finish last season after winning the premiership the previous season???
For more than 5 years Chelsea have spent big money on players and managers, it's only now that they look to be winning the Premiership.
Considering everything, we have not done too badly, it wasn't that long ago under Roy Hodgson we were fearing relegation. Each season since then has been a step up. This season because we set very high standards for ourselves in the last one looks to be a complete disaster.
Not having a striker has been a problem.
If Milner comes in then he can play the same position as Lucas. He has been very successful there. Will help to protect the back four/three.
The media are going on about our league position but compared to City who does have a world class manager, who have spent millions on players, who does have billionaire owners and did win the league last year our blip is not as bad. Where did United finish last season after winning the premiership the previous season???
For more than 5 years Chelsea have spent big money on players and managers, it's only now that they look to be winning the Premiership.
Considering everything, we have not done too badly, it wasn't that long ago under Roy Hodgson we were fearing relegation. Each season since then has been a step up. This season because we set very high standards for ourselves in the last one looks to be a complete disaster.
Not having a striker has been a problem.
If Milner comes in then he can play the same position as Lucas. He has been very successful there. Will help to protect the back four/three.
It's only because we finished 2nd last year which was well ahead of schedule. It will be disappointing to finish outside the top 4 but its not doomsday at all. The nature of the league now means we wont be finishing top 4 every season. Some years we will miss out.
It's only because we finished 2nd last year which was well ahead of schedule. It will be disappointing to finish outside the top 4 but its not doomsday at all. The nature of the league now means we wont be finishing top 4 every season. Some years we will miss out.
I totally agree which was indicated in my post. It's been up and down for Spurs too. It's been difficult for them when they lost Bale.
Next season the teams competing for the fourth will be those already in the top four but also Spurs, perhaps Southampton who did very well at the start of the season who have a very good manager.
It's going to be difficult trying to also get the best players for our team. Not only do we compete with premiership teams but also with Bundersleague, Italian Serie A who may have resurgence next season, France Ligue and others.
The reason for where we are now. Is not down to Rodgers it's because of 25 years of poor owners and leadership who failed to build the club properly.
Moaning about Rodgers is not the answer, nor is it to blame our situation on the current owners to be fair even though they have strange policies.
Really? The reason we lost a semi final to 6th bottom Villa is because of 25 years of poor owners...I don't think so. Before you say about looking at the bigger picture, a lot of what some fans, myself included, cannot accept is the level of performance/commitment from the team (and manager to be fair).
I am annoyed at 5th place Liverpool being outplayed, out thought, out hustled by 6th bottom Aston Villa. I am annoyed that our "supposed to be" outstanding manager can be tactically outclassed by a manager with virtually no experience. I mean Brendan changed formation 3 times to combat a Tim Sherwood Villa lacking much class other than Benteke!!
No Liverpool player turned up in that semi final which is totally unacceptable. The manager seems to be putting square pegs in round holes, how many players playing out of position? 3 strikers, all of whom he bought cannot get in ahead of non proper striker Sterling? He brings on the much maligned Glen Johnson when we need a goal, he brings on Rickie Lambert on 90 mins? He then says he cant fault the players effort, well I can and do!. He says they lacked energy - why is that? They wanted it to much? Horlicks, nobody who wants it so much puts in performances like that.
Having said all that I don't want him sacked but I want to see "something from him". I mean being honest taking the season as a whole it's been a massive flop performance wise. We were awful from the start of the season until December, had a good spell for what 10-12 games at most and then have been woeful since, so overall for nearly 3/4 of this season performances have been well below par. This is unacceptable and not down to 25 yrs of bad owners!
BR has spent a small fortune compared to the likes of Villa, yet we get what we witnessed on Sunday. BR needs to get tougher, now!
It's only because we finished 2nd last year which was well ahead of schedule. It will be disappointing to finish outside the top 4 but its not doomsday at all. The nature of the league now means we wont be finishing top 4 every season. Some years we will miss out.
That's all well and good but it's not about a divine right to be top 4. It's about the fact with a big home game v Man Utd with top 4 at stake we didn't play, with a FA Cup final to play for we are out worked by relegation battlers Aston Villa.
For me it's not all about finishing out the top 4, I mean as an example, CC semi we lost, but I was proud of the performance so no drama. Too often though this has not been the case, too often well below an acceptable level.
Also last season BR said we were a season ahead of expectation, which suggests he expected us to be there by now. Missing out is of course a possibility but the team only performing for a quarter of the season deserves questioning.
Newcastle fan here I come in peace (I can hardly say anything we've been shit this season as well ) . I just wanted to ask you guys where you think it's all gone wrong , which players would you sell, would you keep BR and is it true some Liverpool fans can't wait to see the back of Slipp, ,, oooh sorry Stevie G
You might well have had a sensible reply from one of us but for that bib. Anyone would think SG was the only player in history to have slipped on a football pitch.
Newcastle fan here I come in peace (I can hardly say anything we've been shit this season as well ) . I just wanted to ask you guys where you think it's all gone wrong , which players would you sell, would you keep BR and is it true some Liverpool fans can't wait to see the back of Slipp, ,, oooh sorry Stevie G
I'd sell the lot bar for Coutinho & Skrtel
I'd give Brendan til end of season see if performances improve.
No I'm not one of them in that group that'll be glad to see the back of him.
Do you want Pardew back yet? Doing a sterling job at Palace! ;-)
Fans reaching back into the last Kenny reign and plucking a sketchy League Cup win over a Championship side as something of a yardstick baffle me.
We never looked like competing for the top 4, let alone the title, under Kenny and the football was based around launching balls to Andy Carroll. He even bought Downing to specifically supply the ammunition. Balls sailed over Suarez's head often, criminally under-using our best player.
The football was effort over style and this club don't play that way. It also aims for the league, not the League Cup.
Kenny's disastrous PR was the bitter icing on a very stale cake. Sadly, he had to go. Football has moved on.
l.
I agree with a lot of what you said in the latter part of your post and I do think we recognise the biggest issues for the club moving forward and have not too much disagreement of what to do in respect of them but I have to quote this and give some feed back to redress the balance.
In the League Cup run that season culminating in our Wembley win we won away at Brighton and Stoke - both hard away games, we also won at Stamford Bridge and beat City the reigning champions over 2 legs - but you always ignore all that and only talk about the fact we beat Cardiff in the final and it had a bit of good fortune about it - hardly a fair or balanced analysis I'd say.
Never looked like being top 4? - when we deservedly won at both AFC and CFC in the first half of the season we did. Up till Evragate on Oct 15th we were doing well and Luis was doing well - we all knew he was outstanding from his first game V Stoke and especially the Kuyt hat trick game V MUFC so it is imo somewhat economical with the truth to sort of imply that Luis was only good under Brendan - altho yes I will grant you that his best season was obviously his last one with the 31 goals ..etc. You cannot underestimate the impact of the loss of Luis for the whole of January in Kenny's only full season as manager - always a key time of the season - cos of one person - Evra. When he came back one of his early games was home to AFC when we played really well and should have won which would have given us a big chance of top 4 but as it was we lost to a last minute RVP goal and it is not in dispute that the season petered out after that with most league games being poor displays.
In less than 18 months in charge tho the facts are that LFC under KD played 3 times at CFC and won them all - twice in the PL and once in the CC and also won and drew at AFC in the league. So far BR has yet to win at either ground in 3 seasons in charge - please do not interpret that as anti Brendan, it is just an attempt to redress the rather unbalanced analysis of KDs very short reign which many including yourself seem to like to do.
You talk as if KD does not understand the history of LFC and how it plays - I remember the 1987/88 season under him when we walked the league - it was maybe the season when our club has played its best ever football so I think he knows what the club stands for and what it expects far more than anyone.
Yes 35m for Carroll was not great but KD never intended to sell FT and wanted LFC to have LS and FT together - FTs decision to desert us on Jan 31st 2011 had far reaching effects in terms of recruitment ...etc.. I am not even sure we would have bought Carroll if FT had stayed. Even so Carroll for me has developed into a good player since leaving LFC and when he has played for WHU this season looks decent - OK not 35m worth but far better than our current non Sturridge striker options that's for sure - and better than Sturridge himself too if we look at his form since returning from injury.
Anyway all that is history but I could not let such an unfair analysis of a man who I love more than any other person associated with our club go unchallenged.
As for the future I think we are not that far apart - keep BR, do some good business over the summer and lets hope we do better next season in terms of results and performances cos for me there have been too few really good displays which have excited the fans this season and I'd like to think BR is aware of that. Even a lot of our wins have been a bit uninspired.
I don't really understand the no trophies in 3 years stick which some will use to beat Rodgers with.
We're not Real Madrid. We haven't won the title for 25 years. We've won a couple of cups since the Champions' League in 2005. So the point about not having won anything in three years for me isn't a reason alone to change a manager.
You might well have had a sensible reply from one of us but for that bib. Anyone would think SG was the only player in history to have slipped on a football pitch.
Oh come on have a sense of humour it's all said in jest
Really? The reason we lost a semi final to 6th bottom Villa is because of 25 years of poor owners...I don't think so. Before you say about looking at the bigger picture, a lot of what some fans, myself included, cannot accept is the level of performance/commitment from the team (and manager to be fair).
I am annoyed at 5th place Liverpool being outplayed, out thought, out hustled by 6th bottom Aston Villa. I am annoyed that our "supposed to be" outstanding manager can be tactically outclassed by a manager with virtually no experience. I mean Brendan changed formation 3 times to combat a Tim Sherwood Villa lacking much class other than Benteke!!
No Liverpool player turned up in that semi final which is totally unacceptable. The manager seems to be putting square pegs in round holes, how many players playing out of position? 3 strikers, all of whom he bought cannot get in ahead of non proper striker Sterling? He brings on the much maligned Glen Johnson when we need a goal, he brings on Rickie Lambert on 90 mins? He then says he cant fault the players effort, well I can and do!. He says they lacked energy - why is that? They wanted it to much? Horlicks, nobody who wants it so much puts in performances like that.
Having said all that I don't want him sacked but I want to see "something from him". I mean being honest taking the season as a whole it's been a massive flop performance wise. We were awful from the start of the season until December, had a good spell for what 10-12 games at most and then have been woeful since, so overall for nearly 3/4 of this season performances have been well below par. This is unacceptable and not down to 25 yrs of bad owners!
BR has spent a small fortune compared to the likes of Villa, yet we get what we witnessed on Sunday. BR needs to get tougher, now!
I was not talking about why lost in the last game. I was inferring of where we are as a club now, why we are not in the top 4.
But if you want to look at the semi final defeat. It was horrible but even in the hay day of the club players and team didn't turn up and we had a cracking team then.
The abysmal 25 year ownership of the club is the reason why we are now. If the stadium had been built many years ago 20+ when it was first proposed, the club for the last 15 years would have had more income. Liverpool for more than 30+ years has had one of the biggest fan bases in the world for a football club and it's only been recently that this has been looked at to increase more money in to the club.
If the owners had have been more wiser, Liverpool may have been richer a long time ago, may have won more trophies such as the premiership by having the ability to attract the players that United have done and kept them. The FFP which has only just been introduced would have suited us, we might have been able to have a better chance of getting top players as we would have the ability to pay big wages.
Instead we are playing catch up.... We are having to look at potential youth players because we don't have a strong reputation of being a winning club, playing in a Europe despite us winning in Istanbul. The club is hoping that young players will come good from the academy hence the investment.
Rodgers is basically having to build the team/club from scratch at the same time keep Liverpool relevant by getting good league positions. Snatch players who the London clubs, United and City are not looking at. That is the reality of where the club is.
Comments
The reason for where we are now. Is not down to Rodgers it's because of 25 years of poor owners and leadership who failed to build the club properly.
The club is having to restructure, play catch up and it's going to take time. Players will start to come through the youth system but it's not going to happen yet.
We were very lucky to have Suarez last season, Gerrard for as long as we did who paved over the hidden cracks.
Liverpool for the amount of fame it has had should already be a self sufficient money making club like United and Arsenal has been with shops all over the place drumming up money. The club over the last few years has started to rectify this. But United was a successful PLC business before the Glaziers came in. Arsenal has built brand new stadium and are starting to reap the benefits.
Moaning about Rodgers is not the answer, nor is it to blame our situation on the current owners to be fair even though they have strange policies.
dont see BR walking out to be honest. the mixture of not completing what he started and the fact it would cost FSG £10m to sack him both play a huge part.
BR isnt walking and FSG wont be sacking him in the summer.
FSG were ruthless when they sacked Kenny & that's despite winning the League Cup with Kenny manager, & after last season this season is miles step backwards.
you have decided to forget the terrible league form under kenny. the terrible football and the way he handled the luis suarez situation.
all 3 of them played a part in why kenny was let go.
also kenny was never a long term option for FSG. kenny was always gonna go once they found the man they wanted and that was BR.
oh and FSG never had to pay kenny £10m
What about the terrible football under BR? Or has every performance been up to standard?
Nobody has said every performance has been great but if you think the way we were playing under Kenny is anywhere near what we have under BR then you are delusional.
Fans reaching back into the last Kenny reign and plucking a sketchy League Cup win over a Championship side as something of a yardstick baffle me.
We never looked like competing for the top 4, let alone the title, under Kenny and the football was based around launching balls to Andy Carroll. He even bought Downing to specifically supply the ammunition. Balls sailed over Suarez's head often, criminally under-using our best player.
The football was effort over style and this club don't play that way. It also aims for the league, not the League Cup.
Kenny's disastrous PR was the bitter icing on a very stale cake. Sadly, he had to go. Football has moved on.
BR has made mistakes, of course he has as a young manager, but we more often than not have played attractive football, some of the best I've seen from a Liverpool side since the late Eighties.
He got the most out of Suarez before the magical Uruguayan inevitably left.
Had we had Sturridge for 30+ league games this season, I doubt we'd be struggling under an avalanche of angst right now - a fit Sturridge would easily have made up that points difference between 5th and the top 4. Seven league goals from winger as our top scorer says it all - the worst haul in the top seven by a range of 5-13 goals.
The huge error was Balotelli. As an option off the bench, maybe. However, the majority in that lamentable transfer committee had taken into account a possible Sturridge long term injury they would surely had thought better of it - he's never been someone who can lead the line. We couldn't shift Borini and players like Sanchez favoured the lights of the capital. It was gamble time and we lost.
Until we know the mechanics of that committee, fans cannot blame Rodgers entirely for the failed buys. Some of them have been injury ravaged and some have been floored by bad form - neither were predictable except by the hindsight brigade.
The saddest aspect has been Gerrard. He;s a broken man, mentally and physically and I don't think anyone, BR included, expected such a rapid decline. He was running on adrenalin last season, pushing himself too far in the pursuit of something he would have loved to bring back to Anfield and that would have been a fitting legacy. Instead, we've got a haunted, angry and resigned shadow of a player and it's horrifying to see his career end in this way.
Next season lessons must be learned by all and the purchases have to be spot on and hopefully based on football rather than finance. Brendan needs a decent crack at a season with a full hand in terms of strikers. He needs to accept (and I suspect he already has) that Lovren isn't mentally up for being a cornerstone of our defence.
Emre Can IS the ideal replacement at the base of midfield so we need to find two defenders. Along with two viable strikers - perhaps one if we gamble on Origi fulfilling his obvious promise.
A lot of last season's business was about bulking out the squad - and many of the buys are fine for that role. I'd reluctantly sell Sterling to finance a stellar name up front if necessary - the disruption cannot continue into next season. If he wants to go, let's face facts and cash in while we can. Any inkling of not wanting to play for this great club should be met with very short shrift.
I've fed up with the knee jerking - I truly can't see why some fans can't see there are contributing factors outside of BR's control that have derailed things this year yet the general progression is surely upwards - we're so much better than the mess we were when he arrived. We've not got the money nor the allure to attract the kind of manager/player some fans want at the club so let's get real, stop bleating and support the club. It's a time to be rational.
2 of my favourite ever figures from LFC history are Luis Suarez and Kenny Dalglish and the dismissal of Kenny in May 2012 still leaves a bit of a bad taste with me. Some seem to describe that season as the all time low - no that was Hodgson in the autumn of 2010 and from where the club was when he took over Kenny did an amazing job. He gave us back our rpide. Consider that In the 10 away league games under RH we lost 7, won just 1 (by an 85th minute goal at Bolton in an awful game) and drew 2 ((at Wigan and Bham). we also lost at home to Blackpool, Wolves who were way bottom of the league at the time and got knocked out the League Cup at Anfield by Northampton who were near the bottom of the 4th tier at the time. From his appointment to the end of the season KD did great including wins at CFC and scoring 5 at Fulham so FSG had to give him the job - we even almost got into Europe which was remarkable when you consider that we were below half way when he took over.
The transfer business in the summer was not great - some good but a lot of average or poor and we were ripped off a lot but even so we started the next season well winning away at both Arsenal and Chelsea before Christmas and also had some good home wins - such results were totally impossible to contemplate under Roy. Then came the Evra nonsense which more than anything derailed our season and deprived us of Luis for the whole of January - when he came back top 4 looked unlikely and so it proved. LS had been good pre Evra but apart from his usual Carrow Road master class
BR a young manager was appointed and it was a thankless task for him to replace such a legend but after a stuttering start he did OK in the first season and in the second season with LS at his best we came 2nd. He had won us as fans around and we hoped the PL title would not be long arriving. The football was attractive and exciting almost every game and we scored 101 PL goals far more than we had ever done before. Then disaster - LS left and this season we have done nowhere near as well with the players signed with the Suarez money largely not doing that well although some as young players show promise for the future. Also this season the football has often been poor in quality altho we have had times when we have lived up to the saying of winning when we did not play that well which is a good habit to have. The form in both European games and the majority of the most important fixtures has been a major worry
Maybe that history lesson as a sort of preamble was unnecessary but it is how I see the last 5 years at our club - and from comments since yesterdays match I think some would differ with me.
The question now is what to do now? - I do reject talk that is too pessimistic as I always like to look positively on the future and think with an inspired signing or two we could do well again next season (meaning top 4) as we do have the basis for a good young team.
However it is clear to me some issues need addressing like
The transfer committee?
How can we improve in Europe?
Why have we underperformed in many major games?
Raheem Sterling?
Mario Ballotelli?
Replacing Gerrard?
My opinion which I feel pretty strongly is that the transfer committee needs to be far more transparent and probably needs radical changes in it if not scrapping. I do not want Mario at our club next season nor Ricky either as I want people likely to score and they do not fit that description. We cannot lose 31 goals after the LS sale and not expect to drop. I also think Raheem would not be missed that much on the field (with Ibe and others ready to step up) and off it he has become a distraction so if he was let go I would not be that unhappy - also the money raised would come in handy - but it does seem as if the club do not envisage selling which is a concern. I think a dynamic midfielder ready to go into the team is needed - Pjankic (or however you spell it!!) and a proven striker and also a 'number 10' to assist Studge. Defensively I think there are less needs but I think Lovren has been a failure and want him out and a replacement bought for him - altho for me Skrtel and Sakho are OK but you do need other options and Kolo is showing his age somewhat - but he should be kept too as I think he is a good influence in the dressing room being a winner.
I am not in favour of BR leaving altho I do agree he has made mistakes but he deserves more time. I do think tho lots of LFC legends like Thommo, Carra, God, Didi, John Barnes and others all speak with a lot of sense about how we have gone wrong so some frank talking off the record between BR and some of these guys would be a good idea and maybe bringing one of them in to assist would be another good way to freshen things up. Klopp is my favourite possible replacement if FSG did choose to get rid of BR and also maybe Simeone should be considered altho the latter may be hard to get and Klopp will go to a new club this summer and if it is not us then he will bed in there and will never end up at Anfield.
But as I have said I hope FSG stick with BR for now. If by this time next season we feel that no progress has been seen to be made then that is the time when changes would have to be considered.
PS Sorry for the length!!
Nice little PR stunt by the club. Deflection tactics...makes a change from blaming the officials as the usual tactic.
Is Can that player? He seems like more of a box to Box midfield player to me.
We need someone who can do what Lucas does but fitter. A very good reader of the game who may not be the most mobile but is very adapt at putting themselves into the right positions. Also a player who is fine with taking the ball with their back to goal and a good passer. I don't think Can is that player.
Allen isn't even that player. Allen isn't really a holding midfield player and excels playing further forward.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32391590
For more than 5 years Chelsea have spent big money on players and managers, it's only now that they look to be winning the Premiership.
Considering everything, we have not done too badly, it wasn't that long ago under Roy Hodgson we were fearing relegation. Each season since then has been a step up. This season because we set very high standards for ourselves in the last one looks to be a complete disaster.
Not having a striker has been a problem.
If Milner comes in then he can play the same position as Lucas. He has been very successful there. Will help to protect the back four/three.
It's only because we finished 2nd last year which was well ahead of schedule. It will be disappointing to finish outside the top 4 but its not doomsday at all. The nature of the league now means we wont be finishing top 4 every season. Some years we will miss out.
I totally agree which was indicated in my post. It's been up and down for Spurs too. It's been difficult for them when they lost Bale.
Next season the teams competing for the fourth will be those already in the top four but also Spurs, perhaps Southampton who did very well at the start of the season who have a very good manager.
It's going to be difficult trying to also get the best players for our team. Not only do we compete with premiership teams but also with Bundersleague, Italian Serie A who may have resurgence next season, France Ligue and others.
I am annoyed at 5th place Liverpool being outplayed, out thought, out hustled by 6th bottom Aston Villa. I am annoyed that our "supposed to be" outstanding manager can be tactically outclassed by a manager with virtually no experience. I mean Brendan changed formation 3 times to combat a Tim Sherwood Villa lacking much class other than Benteke!!
No Liverpool player turned up in that semi final which is totally unacceptable. The manager seems to be putting square pegs in round holes, how many players playing out of position? 3 strikers, all of whom he bought cannot get in ahead of non proper striker Sterling? He brings on the much maligned Glen Johnson when we need a goal, he brings on Rickie Lambert on 90 mins? He then says he cant fault the players effort, well I can and do!. He says they lacked energy - why is that? They wanted it to much? Horlicks, nobody who wants it so much puts in performances like that.
Having said all that I don't want him sacked but I want to see "something from him". I mean being honest taking the season as a whole it's been a massive flop performance wise. We were awful from the start of the season until December, had a good spell for what 10-12 games at most and then have been woeful since, so overall for nearly 3/4 of this season performances have been well below par. This is unacceptable and not down to 25 yrs of bad owners!
BR has spent a small fortune compared to the likes of Villa, yet we get what we witnessed on Sunday. BR needs to get tougher, now!
That's all well and good but it's not about a divine right to be top 4. It's about the fact with a big home game v Man Utd with top 4 at stake we didn't play, with a FA Cup final to play for we are out worked by relegation battlers Aston Villa.
For me it's not all about finishing out the top 4, I mean as an example, CC semi we lost, but I was proud of the performance so no drama. Too often though this has not been the case, too often well below an acceptable level.
Also last season BR said we were a season ahead of expectation, which suggests he expected us to be there by now. Missing out is of course a possibility but the team only performing for a quarter of the season deserves questioning.
You might well have had a sensible reply from one of us but for that bib. Anyone would think SG was the only player in history to have slipped on a football pitch.
I'd give Brendan til end of season see if performances improve.
No I'm not one of them in that group that'll be glad to see the back of him.
Do you want Pardew back yet? Doing a sterling job at Palace! ;-)
Yep, lets see if BR is good to his word, he said he owes it to the club & supporters to fight to the end, let's do that then!
I agree with a lot of what you said in the latter part of your post and I do think we recognise the biggest issues for the club moving forward and have not too much disagreement of what to do in respect of them but I have to quote this and give some feed back to redress the balance.
In the League Cup run that season culminating in our Wembley win we won away at Brighton and Stoke - both hard away games, we also won at Stamford Bridge and beat City the reigning champions over 2 legs - but you always ignore all that and only talk about the fact we beat Cardiff in the final and it had a bit of good fortune about it - hardly a fair or balanced analysis I'd say.
Never looked like being top 4? - when we deservedly won at both AFC and CFC in the first half of the season we did. Up till Evragate on Oct 15th we were doing well and Luis was doing well - we all knew he was outstanding from his first game V Stoke and especially the Kuyt hat trick game V MUFC so it is imo somewhat economical with the truth to sort of imply that Luis was only good under Brendan - altho yes I will grant you that his best season was obviously his last one with the 31 goals ..etc. You cannot underestimate the impact of the loss of Luis for the whole of January in Kenny's only full season as manager - always a key time of the season - cos of one person - Evra. When he came back one of his early games was home to AFC when we played really well and should have won which would have given us a big chance of top 4 but as it was we lost to a last minute RVP goal and it is not in dispute that the season petered out after that with most league games being poor displays.
In less than 18 months in charge tho the facts are that LFC under KD played 3 times at CFC and won them all - twice in the PL and once in the CC and also won and drew at AFC in the league. So far BR has yet to win at either ground in 3 seasons in charge - please do not interpret that as anti Brendan, it is just an attempt to redress the rather unbalanced analysis of KDs very short reign which many including yourself seem to like to do.
You talk as if KD does not understand the history of LFC and how it plays - I remember the 1987/88 season under him when we walked the league - it was maybe the season when our club has played its best ever football so I think he knows what the club stands for and what it expects far more than anyone.
Yes 35m for Carroll was not great but KD never intended to sell FT and wanted LFC to have LS and FT together - FTs decision to desert us on Jan 31st 2011 had far reaching effects in terms of recruitment ...etc.. I am not even sure we would have bought Carroll if FT had stayed. Even so Carroll for me has developed into a good player since leaving LFC and when he has played for WHU this season looks decent - OK not 35m worth but far better than our current non Sturridge striker options that's for sure - and better than Sturridge himself too if we look at his form since returning from injury.
Anyway all that is history but I could not let such an unfair analysis of a man who I love more than any other person associated with our club go unchallenged.
As for the future I think we are not that far apart - keep BR, do some good business over the summer and lets hope we do better next season in terms of results and performances cos for me there have been too few really good displays which have excited the fans this season and I'd like to think BR is aware of that. Even a lot of our wins have been a bit uninspired.
We're not Real Madrid. We haven't won the title for 25 years. We've won a couple of cups since the Champions' League in 2005. So the point about not having won anything in three years for me isn't a reason alone to change a manager.
Which is what you said to her!
I was not talking about why lost in the last game. I was inferring of where we are as a club now, why we are not in the top 4.
But if you want to look at the semi final defeat. It was horrible but even in the hay day of the club players and team didn't turn up and we had a cracking team then.
The abysmal 25 year ownership of the club is the reason why we are now. If the stadium had been built many years ago 20+ when it was first proposed, the club for the last 15 years would have had more income. Liverpool for more than 30+ years has had one of the biggest fan bases in the world for a football club and it's only been recently that this has been looked at to increase more money in to the club.
If the owners had have been more wiser, Liverpool may have been richer a long time ago, may have won more trophies such as the premiership by having the ability to attract the players that United have done and kept them. The FFP which has only just been introduced would have suited us, we might have been able to have a better chance of getting top players as we would have the ability to pay big wages.
Instead we are playing catch up.... We are having to look at potential youth players because we don't have a strong reputation of being a winning club, playing in a Europe despite us winning in Istanbul. The club is hoping that young players will come good from the academy hence the investment.
Rodgers is basically having to build the team/club from scratch at the same time keep Liverpool relevant by getting good league positions. Snatch players who the London clubs, United and City are not looking at. That is the reality of where the club is.