the relationship between Europe and our benefit system is cause for concern (however its oddly the only part of the benefit system the Tories are not happy to cut), but its worth remebering that plenty of care homes are staffed almost exclusively by Eastern Europeans, most likely agency staff.
And if these care homes didn't employ eastern Europeans who would they employ - possibly some of the 2.5million officially unemployed (including 20% of young people) of whom there are even 400,000 in London.
But its OK to leave them on the scrapheap isn't it! We saw however what can happen when you leave a generation of young people with no future/no prospects/no stake in society in August 2011.
So perhaps the answer is - lets invest in our young people rather than stealing the youth of other countries. Cos presumably there are elderly people in Poland and Lithuania who also need to be cared for?
And eastern Europeans don't partake of alcohol either I suppose.:rolleyes:
What a silly comment - if someone invested in our young people and gave them a job/a chance perhaps they might surprise us!
As I Said Marty,there are (presumably) British people on here who think its perfectly acceptable to criticise and make stupid and totally false statements about other British people when faced with a reasonable point about not wanting 26 million Romanians/Bulgarians to have totally open access to Britain.
Personally, I favour unlimited immigration, but I'd always add the proviso that it's best if it comes from countries on a comparable economic footing, whoever they may be.
Now, Romania and Bulgaria are hardly third-world nations, but they are also not in the same economic tranche as the UK, so it gets a bit difficult.
I'm always reminded of Nick Robinson's 'Your Money And How They Spend It' documentary, which had an interesting graph showing, by household income level, whether you're a net contributor or net recipient in terms of your relationship to the UK economy.
Link here and I'm looking at the lower-most bar chart:
So, according to this, to be a net contributor, you need to be in the 7th decile of income earners, earning somewhere between 23,884 and 27,766 pa at the household level.
To my mind, which is the cold economic perspective ( ), it really boils down to where you think the Romanian and Bulgarian folks are going to figure on that chart. If they gravitate towards the upper income deciles, they are clearly going to be beneficial to the system. If they gravitate towards the lower end, then they will cost the nation, and that will mean that less resource is going to be available to current net recipients.
You decide!
In an ideal world, I guess, we'd be able to do some sort of pre-screening so that we only get the top bods, but we don't have that luxury, which is why this is a much more difficult call than it should have been.
I don't think Bristol would suffer unduly from having a few more EU migrants. Nor would my street, which I will not name in case some of the more unhinged of you are axe-murderers. Was that not the answer you expected?
Do you think that the other residents of Bristol generally share your view that increases in the level of migrants of the scale seen in London would be acceptable?
I have absolutely no problem with you making this observation. We have a lot of weaknesses and we are aware of them trust me, we live the consequences.
I am certainly not here to advocate immigration in UK, I thought I made myself clear in my first post. I am conscious it can become a problem for any country not just UK. I replied just to emphasize the cheap shots and the inappropriate generalization, as you also pointed in an above paragraph.
@ allaorta:
To your first 2 questions, I rather not respond for the already said reasons. Regarding the Romas, they are a problem here also. The majorities do steal, scam, beg and we are ashamed with them, but they do not define Romania.
If you get the chance next time you’re here, try and talk with some elders about life under communism. the look in their eyes, their body language it’s ...something. I was only 7 years old in the autumn of ’89 and there is a day I will never forget. I remember being outside playing with two other children from my block; the street and sidewalks were covered by yellow and brown dry leaves, so silent; no cars, one or two adults passing by every few minutes. I was just a child and was repeating something I heard without knowing its meaning: “Down with Ceausescu!” I have no idea where he came from but, a man grabbed my hand and said “Don’t say that Again”. He wasn’t threatening me. The terror in his eyes! He was petrified hearing me saying that out loud and he was looking around to see who else heard me.
Lucky for you that you're Romanian Floridetei. If you were British and said that everyone would be calling you a racist.
Lucky for you that you're Romanian Floridetei. If you were British and said that everyone would be calling you a racist.
even normal Romanians admit Roma are the scum of society, it doesn't take a genius to work out the Romanian government is going to strongly 'encourage' e.g. force the Roma to go to other places
even normal Romanians admit Roma are the scum of society, it doesn't take a genius to work out the Romanian government is going to strongly 'encourage' e.g. force the Roma to go to other places
Roma aren't of course confined to Romania and it isn't that many years ago the Czech government was giving financial aid to Romas to help them emigrate in large numbers.
The Romas culture is to cheat and steal and they will all be coming here, where with our delightful multiculturism we will be embracing how they will enrich or boring culture.
I
If you get the chance next time you’re here, try and talk with some elders about life under communism. the look in their eyes, their body language it’s ...something. I was only 7 years old in the autumn of ’89 and there is a day I will never forget. I remember being outside playing with two other children from my block; the street and sidewalks were covered by yellow and brown dry leaves, so silent; no cars, one or two adults passing by every few minutes. I was just a child and was repeating something I heard without knowing its meaning: “Down with Ceausescu!” I have no idea where he came from but, a man grabbed my hand and said “Don’t say that Again”. He wasn’t threatening me. The terror in his eyes! He was petrified hearing me saying that out loud and he was looking around to see who else heard me.
Hi floridetei
Actually, I had a long, long chat with somebody about my age, who spoke a lot about life before and after the revolution. He was the owner of the fantastic little hotel we stayed at (Hotel Christina - for anyone thinking of a trip - the reviews on Tripadvisor are NOT too good to be true!!). I could have talked with him all night.
The sad fact is that there are already considerable problems with Romanians in London. Whether they are Roma I know not. Several cases of "squatting" around my neighbourhood - folk gone on holiday, returning to find a Romanian family in their house, locks changed, their belongings in the garden. My partner works for the local council, and they were having endless problems with rubbish tipping, scams - one lot even moved themselves into two rooms in local library and refused to shift. The police say that 90% of cash machine fraud is down to Romanians.
I am well aware of Romanian attitude to Roma - the waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train took great pleasure in telling us how the answer would be to machine-gun the lot of them.
Of course, there must be many decent Romanians, but there are also many who give you a bad name. Even in Bucharest - I'd made "friends" with a young guy on the internet some weeks before, as I like to have a local to meet when travelling, as they can show you the sides of a place you wouldn't usually see as a tourist. I said I'd buy all his drinks/food - which he was happy to take advantage of when we met. Needless to say, at the end of the day, a long story of debts and desperation followed, and being a soft touch, I gave him a sum of money. I should have known better, but sharp practice definitely seems to be a Romanian trait.
I assume from "the already said reasons" that you are conceding the Romanians have a high criminal population and I think that's something most on here were already aware of and one of the reasons they're apprehensive about further immigration, particularly when it is from countries with significant crime levels. We already have a situation where immigrants or immigrant descendants already form a disproportionate part of the crime figures. We already have a situation where onetime relatively low crime market towns, now have substantial social and crime problems as a result of immigration, or migration if you wish to call it that, much of which accompanies a substantial influx from Eastern Europe. Many of these towns had a 20/25% immigrant explosion over a period of two or three years.
Romania has a high crime rate but that doesn’t mean that every Romanian is a criminal. And I very much doubt UK or Germany is a perfectly harmonized utopian country in which prisons serve as museums or 5* hotels and its well being is threatened only by Romanians and Bulgarians coming over in 2014.
Don’t assume we are primates and can’t distinguish the right from wrong. To every immigrant story you have, we can respond with a foreign employer story. People don’t leave their friends, families, countries in persuade of the lowest paid job or for the joy of inhuman life conditions or more humiliation. I need to specify here, that my sister works in Italy (whose husband is Roma and earns his living as a constructor also in Italy) for the same family for almost nine years. Two years ago her boss sent my mother a gold necklace and 500 euro for her birthday.
Now for the Romas. Isn't it true that in Romania, the Romas are persecuted for the very reasons you state
In Romania, Romas are condemned for the very reasons I stated. The majority does steal, scam, commit crimes and those that do should bear the consequences like anyone else. We do not approve this behavior anymore than you do, no matter the ethnicity or nationality; and I understand your concerns.
do you think that despite the small part of your population they constitute, a significantly higher percentage of them will depart than the percentage of those you regard as defining Romania?
I chose not speculate, I can’t give you a researched answer to this and I’m sure you can’t either.
Now, if you affirm immigration is becoming a problem for you then, that is not for me to doubt or to debate. But I was expecting to see it argued with decency, in a civil manner. This is what you pride with, isn’t it? – A high level of civilization?! Please read my first post again #119 and those posts it was directed to.
I am well aware of Romanian attitude to Roma - the waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train took great pleasure in telling us how the answer would be to machine-gun the lot of them.
See, this is exactly what bothers me! This is not the attitude of Romanians to Romas, this is the attitude of a waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train. It is not a general believe here that the machine-gun is a solution.
I will stop replying to this thread now. All the best to you all!
Romania has a high crime rate but that doesn’t mean that every Romanian is a criminal.
And I didn't say or imply that, nor indeed has anyone else as far as I've read.
And I very much doubt UK or Germany is a perfectly harmonized utopian country in which prisons serve as museums or 5* hotels and its well being is threatened only by Romanians and Bulgarians coming over in 2014.
And again, I haven't even made comment on that either but we have plenty of criminals, full prisons and can well do with any more. One of the problems with EU migration is that countries substantially can't choose who move from country to country and even when they might be able to, the sheer weight of numbers precludes such measures being successful.
Don’t assume we are primates and can’t distinguish the right from wrong.
Yet again you are being over defensive in continuing to allude to respondents saying things thay haven't actually said or implied. But to be correct, we are all primates.
To every immigrant story you have, we can respond with a foreign employer story. People don’t leave their friends, families, countries in persuade of the lowest paid job or for the joy of inhuman life conditions or more humiliation. I need to specify here, that my sister works in Italy (whose husband is Roma and earns his living as a constructor also in Italy) for the same family for almost nine years. Two years ago her boss sent my mother a gold necklace and 500 euro for her birthday.
Over the past ten or so years there has been an unforced massive emigration of Romanians to all parts of the world, something which is likely to multiply many times in the next few years. In Britain we have had crap employers of foreign labour, both migrant, immigrant, legal and illegal, and even asylum seekers. The problem still exists but on a much smaller scale than 7 - 10 years ago.
In Romania, Romas are condemned for the very reasons I stated. The majority does steal, scam, commit crimes and those that do should bear the consequences like anyone else. We do not approve this behavior anymore than you do, no matter the ethnicity or nationality; and I understand your concerns.
I lived in France for a number of years and thousands of Romas arrived and spread themselves across the whole country. In the region in which I lived, I saw the effects of their presence, I saw the begging, shoplifting and other crime, the way they lived and the state they left their temperary settlements in; I also saw the results of their threatening behaviour on local people.
Of course we need to ask the question as to why the Romas are moving out in droves. Almost certainly one reason is that where they live has little to offer them from a livelihood point of view; no rich pickings from people who are poor. But is it also because the countries where they exist have never really tackled the problem, preferring instead to suffer them only to persecute them?
I chose not speculate, I can’t give you a researched answer to this and I’m sure you can’t either.
I haven't researched it in statistical terms but I'm prepared to go out on a limb and say that a higher percentage of the Romanian Roma population have already left than the percentage of Romanians.
Now, if you affirm immigration is becoming a problem for you then, that is not for me to doubt or to debate. But I was expecting to see it argued with decency, in a civil manner. This is what you pride with, isn’t it? – A high level of civilization?! Please read my first post again #119 and those posts it was directed to.
I haven't seen anyone respond to you in what I would regard as an uncivilised manner. Forthright maybe but this is a debating board.
See, this is exactly what bothers me! This is not the attitude of Romanians to Romas, this is the attitude of a waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train. It is not a general believe here that the machine-gun is a solution.
I know this was a response to someone else but I I think there is more than one train waiter in Romania.
I will stop replying to this thread now. All the best to you all
Do you think that the other residents of Bristol generally share your view that increases in the level of migrants of the scale seen in London would be acceptable?
Sorry it was only a question, I don't know what the general consensus on immigration is in Bristol. So are they in favour of high levels of immigration into the city like you?
Polish migrants have been an asset to the UK. They've set up businesses and paid all their taxes to the UK.
Granted there was already a strong Polish community of those who'd remained after helping the UK and her allies to defeat Hitler and they were able to offer some advice and support to newcomers, but the younger group worked hard when they arrived here, often taking work for which they were overqualified rather than claiming benefits.
Ho hum. Another anti-immigration thread based on spurious data. Do you really think half the population of Bulgaria is going to arrive here?
If there is the poverty you describe, isn't it better to help than panic about them coming here?
Well there will be nothing in place to stop them. Wish people like you would stop standing around with your head in the clouds over immigration. May suit the minority like you but the vast majority have had enough!
Well there will be nothing in place to stop them. Wish people like you would stop standing around with your head in the clouds over immigration. May suit the minority like you but the vast majority have had enough!
Define vast majority and prove your assertion please.
Comments
And if these care homes didn't employ eastern Europeans who would they employ - possibly some of the 2.5million officially unemployed (including 20% of young people) of whom there are even 400,000 in London.
But its OK to leave them on the scrapheap isn't it! We saw however what can happen when you leave a generation of young people with no future/no prospects/no stake in society in August 2011.
So perhaps the answer is - lets invest in our young people rather than stealing the youth of other countries. Cos presumably there are elderly people in Poland and Lithuania who also need to be cared for?
How to invest? Most of the time, they are drunk.
And eastern Europeans don't partake of alcohol either I suppose.:rolleyes:
What a silly comment - if someone invested in our young people and gave them a job/a chance perhaps they might surprise us!
As I Said Marty,there are (presumably) British people on here who think its perfectly acceptable to criticise and make stupid and totally false statements about other British people when faced with a reasonable point about not wanting 26 million Romanians/Bulgarians to have totally open access to Britain.
Personally, I favour unlimited immigration, but I'd always add the proviso that it's best if it comes from countries on a comparable economic footing, whoever they may be.
Now, Romania and Bulgaria are hardly third-world nations, but they are also not in the same economic tranche as the UK, so it gets a bit difficult.
I'm always reminded of Nick Robinson's 'Your Money And How They Spend It' documentary, which had an interesting graph showing, by household income level, whether you're a net contributor or net recipient in terms of your relationship to the UK economy.
Link here and I'm looking at the lower-most bar chart:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13633966
So, according to this, to be a net contributor, you need to be in the 7th decile of income earners, earning somewhere between 23,884 and 27,766 pa at the household level.
To my mind, which is the cold economic perspective (
You decide!
In an ideal world, I guess, we'd be able to do some sort of pre-screening so that we only get the top bods, but we don't have that luxury, which is why this is a much more difficult call than it should have been.
Regards,
Cypher
Do you think that the other residents of Bristol generally share your view that increases in the level of migrants of the scale seen in London would be acceptable?
Lucky for you that you're Romanian Floridetei. If you were British and said that everyone would be calling you a racist.
even normal Romanians admit Roma are the scum of society, it doesn't take a genius to work out the Romanian government is going to strongly 'encourage' e.g. force the Roma to go to other places
Roma aren't of course confined to Romania and it isn't that many years ago the Czech government was giving financial aid to Romas to help them emigrate in large numbers.
Hi floridetei
Actually, I had a long, long chat with somebody about my age, who spoke a lot about life before and after the revolution. He was the owner of the fantastic little hotel we stayed at (Hotel Christina - for anyone thinking of a trip - the reviews on Tripadvisor are NOT too good to be true!!). I could have talked with him all night.
The sad fact is that there are already considerable problems with Romanians in London. Whether they are Roma I know not. Several cases of "squatting" around my neighbourhood - folk gone on holiday, returning to find a Romanian family in their house, locks changed, their belongings in the garden. My partner works for the local council, and they were having endless problems with rubbish tipping, scams - one lot even moved themselves into two rooms in local library and refused to shift. The police say that 90% of cash machine fraud is down to Romanians.
I am well aware of Romanian attitude to Roma - the waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train took great pleasure in telling us how the answer would be to machine-gun the lot of them.
Of course, there must be many decent Romanians, but there are also many who give you a bad name. Even in Bucharest - I'd made "friends" with a young guy on the internet some weeks before, as I like to have a local to meet when travelling, as they can show you the sides of a place you wouldn't usually see as a tourist. I said I'd buy all his drinks/food - which he was happy to take advantage of when we met. Needless to say, at the end of the day, a long story of debts and desperation followed, and being a soft touch, I gave him a sum of money. I should have known better, but sharp practice definitely seems to be a Romanian trait.
Only when the demand for same from employers dries up.
Romania has a high crime rate but that doesn’t mean that every Romanian is a criminal. And I very much doubt UK or Germany is a perfectly harmonized utopian country in which prisons serve as museums or 5* hotels and its well being is threatened only by Romanians and Bulgarians coming over in 2014.
Don’t assume we are primates and can’t distinguish the right from wrong. To every immigrant story you have, we can respond with a foreign employer story. People don’t leave their friends, families, countries in persuade of the lowest paid job or for the joy of inhuman life conditions or more humiliation. I need to specify here, that my sister works in Italy (whose husband is Roma and earns his living as a constructor also in Italy) for the same family for almost nine years. Two years ago her boss sent my mother a gold necklace and 500 euro for her birthday.
In Romania, Romas are condemned for the very reasons I stated. The majority does steal, scam, commit crimes and those that do should bear the consequences like anyone else. We do not approve this behavior anymore than you do, no matter the ethnicity or nationality; and I understand your concerns.
I chose not speculate, I can’t give you a researched answer to this and I’m sure you can’t either.
Now, if you affirm immigration is becoming a problem for you then, that is not for me to doubt or to debate. But I was expecting to see it argued with decency, in a civil manner. This is what you pride with, isn’t it? – A high level of civilization?! Please read my first post again #119 and those posts it was directed to.
See, this is exactly what bothers me! This is not the attitude of Romanians to Romas, this is the attitude of a waiter on the Budapest-Bucharest sleeper train. It is not a general believe here that the machine-gun is a solution.
I will stop replying to this thread now. All the best to you all!
more then a thousand signatures again today nearing 22,500, still trending and doing well.
Do you often make straw man arguments?
Sorry it was only a question, I don't know what the general consensus on immigration is in Bristol. So are they in favour of high levels of immigration into the city like you?
Housing Minister worried about new influx
Mr Boles said the housing market was still struggling to cope with 1.7 million migrants flooding in over the past decade
Utter rubbish.
Well there will be nothing in place to stop them. Wish people like you would stop standing around with your head in the clouds over immigration. May suit the minority like you but the vast majority have had enough!
Define vast majority and prove your assertion please.
It was a question that read rather more into what I wrote than what I'd actually written. You do that a lot, I've noticed.