Did you tell them the truth about why you left, or did you lie (again) and tell them you were fires, now they've found out? I should imagine that would havea. Big affect on the outcome.
I had a interview with 2 advisors and i had to explain to them the reason why i left, i even had to write it down on my first interview for them to get my side of the story. The woman who has actually sanctioned me is the careers woman and as far as i remember she has not asked me why i left. What baffles me more is that i told my advisor before i had a interview with her and he didnt take any further action with it.
And no, im not lying.
Im going to get in touch with cab see what they say.
I had a interview with 2 advisors and i had to explain to them the reason why i left, i even had to write it down on my first interview for them to get my side of the story. The woman who has actually sanctioned me is the careers woman and as far as i remember she has not asked me why i left. What baffles me more is that i told my advisor before i had a interview with her and he didnt take any further action with it.
And no, im not lying.
Im going to get in touch with cab see what they say.
From what you have written about why you left, I hate to say it but it doesn't seem to be a good enough reason for you walking out of the job, the circumstances you have described does not constitute constructive dismissal.
You walked out because you didn't like being told you weren't up to the job, and you haven't mentioned whether you took your concerns higher or whether you just walked out.
If you just walked out without discussing the issues with management then you haven't made enough of an effort to address the issues, or given the employer a chance to address any problems.
I had a interview with 2 advisors and i had to explain to them the reason why i left, i even had to write it down on my first interview for them to get my side of the story. The woman who has actually sanctioned me is the careers woman and as far as i remember she has not asked me why i left. What baffles me more is that i told my advisor before i had a interview with her and he didnt take any further action with it.
And no, im not lying.
Im going to get in touch with cab see what they say.
Yes, this is standard practice. Anyone who has left their job voluntarily is asked about this when they claim JSA and your former employers will have been asked for their version as well. It doesn't matter who you told or whether they said anything at the time. At some point it will go to the decision maker - hence the letter you've received. The decision maker then decides whether or not you had 'good reason' to leave (not the same as constructive dismissal which someone else has mentioned).
When you see CAB make sure you take any letters from the Job Centre with you so that they're clear about exactly what's happened.
I understand that they don't want people claiming who have just walked out on a job but how long does this last for? It can't go on forever surely. You say this was in August so what have you been living on since then?
I don't this is how it works. All the DWP documents talk about you losing benefits if you've don't meet the required conditions. This implies that you're getting benefits and then they're sanctioned - ie stopped for a specified period - not that you're disqualified from applying in the first place. Perhaps Tigragirl or someone else who knows the regulations could clarify?
Hi Nell
As far as I am aware they don't sanction you the day you make your claim.
Years ago if you walked out job your claim would be suspended from the outset, you would be asked for your reason why you left, the employer would be asked for there side of the story and the decision maker would use that to make their decision. If the claim was allowed they would lift the suspension and pay arrears, if not the claim would be disallowed from date the claim was made for up to 6 months.
These days they get your reasons, then the employers side of things and I think they pay your benefits until a negative decision . Is made. At that point a high level sanction kicks in. Depending on what has happened in the past and what happens as the claim continues, the period can be anything from 13 weeks to three years.
They can't stop you making a claim, even if you walked out of your job, the adviser in the jobcentre doesn't make the decision so they can't say if or if not your case would be allowed.
Whoever said the decision makers are in the office is totally wrong. They are not in front facing offices, the decision makers are in different parts of the country
I had a interview with 2 advisors and i had to explain to them the reason why i left, i even had to write it down on my first interview for them to get my side of the story. The woman who has actually sanctioned me is the careers woman and as far as i remember she has not asked me why i left. What baffles me more is that i told my advisor before i had a interview with her and he didnt take any further action with it.
And no, im not lying.
Im going to get in touch with cab see what they say.
Careers can't sanction you
If you have been sent to a mandatory course with careers and not gone, they will inform the jobcentre, they will ask why you didn't go, the information will go to the decision makers and they will sanction for two weeks and disallow another two weeks if you didn't have good reason to go.
If this is what happened and you also have a sanction and disallowance for leaving you job, the length of time you will be without money will be stacking up.
Three strikes and you can lose your money for up to three years
Hi Nell
As far as I am aware they don't sanction you the day you make your claim.
Years ago if you walked out job your claim would be suspended from the outset, you would be asked for your reason why you left, the employer would be asked for there side of the story and the decision maker would use that to make their decision. If the claim was allowed they would lift the suspension and pay arrears, if not the claim would be disallowed from date the claim was made for up to 6 months.
These days they get your reasons, then the employers side of things and I think they pay your benefits until a negative decision . Is made. At that point a high level sanction kicks in. Depending on what has happened in the past and what happens as the claim continues, the period can be anything from 13 weeks to three years.
They can't stop you making a claim, even if you walked out of your job, the adviser in the jobcentre doesn't make the decision so they can't say if or if not your case would be allowed.
Whoever said the decision makers are in the office is totally wrong. They are not in front facing offices, the decision makers are in different parts of the country
Thanks - this was what I meant....of course it isn't from the day you make the claim, it's from when all the evidence is in and they decide! But earlier, City Slicker said
I have a lot of experience in this area due to a voluntary service I work on in my spare time.
If you left your job in August I can say 100% you cannot be sanctioned for leaving that job voluntarily. The most you can be sanctioned for is 3 months after the event happened, not 3 months after you make a claim. Since that would have been passed in November the amount of time you could have been sanctioned for has now elapsed anyway.
Let's say you left last week - in that instance a decision maker would have to rule if it was reasonable to walk out as there are times it may be reasonable and other occasions when it may not be reasonable to walk out. That's only an example what could happen if you left recently, but since it was last August you walked out that will have absolutely no bearing on sanctions.
and I was equally sure that this couldn't be right, but then started to doubt my own sanity.
Thanks for the clarification, there seem to be so many myths around about all this.
When a new claim is made the only time it can be sanctioned from day 1 is if it is a reclaim within an existing period of disallowance or extended sanction.
There are different tiers of sanctions and the one that applies here is ILS (intermediate level sanction). The longest period of sanction on an ILS for a first disallowance is 13 weeks. Even if a person has claimed within 13 weeks of walking out of work, it may still be 'allowed' if 'good cause' can be demonstrated to a decision maker. The full decision maker's guidance is available online but broadly speaking it works on person-in-the-street rules i.e. if you asked an average reasonable person with no prejudice to either side would the decision seem appropriate.
No brand new claim can be sanctioned from day 1 (and no reclaim can be sanctioned from day 1 either if it is outside of 'linking' periods, usually 26 weeks since the last claim). If there is a doubt on entitlement due to leaving voluntarily it is still referred to a decision maker and payments continue until a decision has been made, typically this takes 2-4 weeks.
With all this in mind, taking the OP's info at face value, it is not possible to sanction them for leaving voluntarily as the penalty for an ILS sanction has now expired. That is why I am 100% confident there will be no sanction if the situation is exactly as described by the OP as the time limits have long gone.
I have heard lots of myths by people, and for 'LV' (leaving voluntarily) cases some people think a sanction of 6 months applies regardless and don't bother to claim. I'm aware others think 6 months starts ticking from the day of the event but are unaware a decision maker can rule on 'good cause' and a penalty may not apply, so they wait for 6 months then put in a claim. 6 months is the old standard before ILS and HLS sanctions were applicable, but it was always a sliding scale. Now it is 13 weeks for an ILS unless good cause applies, but - and crucially as I already mentioned - the clock starts ticking from the last day a person worked. Technically a decision can be referred to a DM up to 6 months after the event but in practice it is the 13 weeks after the event happened, that's why I am so confident that since we're in Feb 14 and the OP left in Aug 13 there is no way a DM would pursue LV on this case.
Your version of what happens and Tigra Girl's are quite different. As I've said before, my understanding is the same as Tigra girl's. The difference seems to be about when the clock starts ticking.
If you're right, and if the OP left her job in August, why would she even have received a letter saying that her benefit 'may' be sanctioned? I know they make mistakes but they'll have all the dates. It seems to me that what's happened is that she gave her version of events, the former employer was asked for theirs, and it's now been passed to a decision maker. She will get a letter giving the decision - either she'll have been sanctioned or she won't. If she has she can ask for a mandatory reconsideration, and if that fails, she can appeal.
Hi Cityslicker, I thought leaving a job was a high level sanction. Am I right in thinking that intermediate and higher level sanctions can be put together to extend sanctions for up to three years, so if someone did get sanctioned for 13 weeks then didn't go to a mandatory course the sanction could be increased to 26 weeks and if they then turned down a job, refused to apply for a job or didn't do enough to look for work, this could potentially mean that a sanction for 3 years could apply?
Your version of what happens and Tigra Girl's are quite different. As I've said before, my understanding is the same as Tigra girl's. The difference seems to be about when the clock starts ticking.
If you're right, and if the OP left her job in August, why would she even have received a letter saying that her benefit 'may' be sanctioned? I know they make mistakes but they'll have all the dates. It seems to me that what's happened is that she gave her version of events, the former employer was asked for theirs, and it's now been passed to a decision maker. She will get a letter giving the decision - either she'll have been sanctioned or she won't. If she has she can ask for a mandatory reconsideration, and if that fails, she can appeal.
My apologies you're right about HLS (I think I was confusing the escalated ILS with the initial HLS period).
Saying that, I am confused why you think a sanction would apply after all this time since a person left a job? There has to be a cut-off point, and that cut-off is technically 6 months (13 weeks in practice usually). Otherwise you could sanction a person who let's say left work 10 years ago, was supported by their family, came into the Jobcentre, made a claim and they get sanctioned. That wouldn't happen, so I'm not sure why you think it is wrong the clock starts ticking after the event, not the date of claim?
This is totally my opinion of course but I really do think sanctioning depends on the job centre and the staff it holds. I know a girl who has been on JSA for nearly three years and has never been sanctioned, yet when I was on it for three months I was sanctioned (which, a long story, was totally unjustified on their part but luckily for me I found a job and exited-bingo).
My apologies you're right about HLS (I think I was confusing the escalated ILS with the initial HLS period).
Saying that, I am confused why you think a sanction would apply after all this time since a person left a job? There has to be a cut-off point, and that cut-off is technically 6 months (13 weeks in practice usually). Otherwise you could sanction a person who let's say left work 10 years ago, was supported by their family, came into the Jobcentre, made a claim and they get sanctioned. That wouldn't happen, so I'm not sure why you think it is wrong the clock starts ticking after the event, not the date of claim?
I think the crucial thing is the date she left, as Nell said, if it was out of time why would they have sent the case up, it would have been rejected as out of time by the DM.
It implies she is still with the 6 months of leaving.
I thought I understood this but now I'm not sure I do! I see your point City Slicker. Maybe JC+ has a cut off time so that someone in the example you cite wouldn't be affected which I agree would be daft. But let's say someone leaves their job, doesn't apply for JSA for a few weeks for whatever reason, is asked why they left, their ex employer is contacted and takes a few weeks to reply, it's then handed over to the decision maker who decides on a sanction.... Are you saying that the start time of the sanction is the date the claimant left their job, not the date when the decision was made? That might mean that a 13 week sanction in effect is much shorter than 13 weeks.
I thought I understood this but now I'm not sure I do! I see your point City Slicker. Maybe JC+ has a cut off time so that someone in the example you cite wouldn't be affected which I agree would be daft. But let's say someone leaves their job, doesn't apply for JSA for a few weeks for whatever reason, is asked why they left, their ex employer is contacted and takes a few weeks to reply, it's then handed over to the decision maker who decides on a sanction.... Are you saying that the start time of the sanction is the date the claimant left their job, not the date when the decision was made? That might mean that a 13 week sanction in effect is much shorter than 13 weeks.
The Child Poverty Action Group gives this example:
A claimant is sanctioned for 13 weeks because it is decided that before her/his JSA claim, s/he had resigned from her/his job for no good reason. S/he claimed JSA four weeks after leaving the job, so the sanction period for the JSA claim is nine weeks. Six months later s/he is given details of a job to apply for by Jobcentre Plus but refuses to do so. A further 13-week sanction is applied. The 26-week sanction cannot be applied in this situation as the first failure does not count towards the escalation of sanctions.
Thanks Alex - and apologies. I clearly got it wrong. I had googled and looked up the regs but hadn't found a specific example and this makes it all much clearer. I can see now why the myth that you can't apply for JSA for 6 months after you leave a job voluntarily comes from, although of course it's still a myth.
But that still doesn't explain what's happened in the OP's case, if she left her job in August.
Comments
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1937293&highlight=
I had a interview with 2 advisors and i had to explain to them the reason why i left, i even had to write it down on my first interview for them to get my side of the story. The woman who has actually sanctioned me is the careers woman and as far as i remember she has not asked me why i left. What baffles me more is that i told my advisor before i had a interview with her and he didnt take any further action with it.
And no, im not lying.
Im going to get in touch with cab see what they say.
From what you have written about why you left, I hate to say it but it doesn't seem to be a good enough reason for you walking out of the job, the circumstances you have described does not constitute constructive dismissal.
You walked out because you didn't like being told you weren't up to the job, and you haven't mentioned whether you took your concerns higher or whether you just walked out.
If you just walked out without discussing the issues with management then you haven't made enough of an effort to address the issues, or given the employer a chance to address any problems.
perfect song for sanctions
Yes, this is standard practice. Anyone who has left their job voluntarily is asked about this when they claim JSA and your former employers will have been asked for their version as well. It doesn't matter who you told or whether they said anything at the time. At some point it will go to the decision maker - hence the letter you've received. The decision maker then decides whether or not you had 'good reason' to leave (not the same as constructive dismissal which someone else has mentioned).
When you see CAB make sure you take any letters from the Job Centre with you so that they're clear about exactly what's happened.
Hi Nell
As far as I am aware they don't sanction you the day you make your claim.
Years ago if you walked out job your claim would be suspended from the outset, you would be asked for your reason why you left, the employer would be asked for there side of the story and the decision maker would use that to make their decision. If the claim was allowed they would lift the suspension and pay arrears, if not the claim would be disallowed from date the claim was made for up to 6 months.
These days they get your reasons, then the employers side of things and I think they pay your benefits until a negative decision . Is made. At that point a high level sanction kicks in. Depending on what has happened in the past and what happens as the claim continues, the period can be anything from 13 weeks to three years.
They can't stop you making a claim, even if you walked out of your job, the adviser in the jobcentre doesn't make the decision so they can't say if or if not your case would be allowed.
Whoever said the decision makers are in the office is totally wrong. They are not in front facing offices, the decision makers are in different parts of the country
Careers can't sanction you
If you have been sent to a mandatory course with careers and not gone, they will inform the jobcentre, they will ask why you didn't go, the information will go to the decision makers and they will sanction for two weeks and disallow another two weeks if you didn't have good reason to go.
If this is what happened and you also have a sanction and disallowance for leaving you job, the length of time you will be without money will be stacking up.
Three strikes and you can lose your money for up to three years
Thanks - this was what I meant....of course it isn't from the day you make the claim, it's from when all the evidence is in and they decide! But earlier, City Slicker said
I have a lot of experience in this area due to a voluntary service I work on in my spare time.
If you left your job in August I can say 100% you cannot be sanctioned for leaving that job voluntarily. The most you can be sanctioned for is 3 months after the event happened, not 3 months after you make a claim. Since that would have been passed in November the amount of time you could have been sanctioned for has now elapsed anyway.
Let's say you left last week - in that instance a decision maker would have to rule if it was reasonable to walk out as there are times it may be reasonable and other occasions when it may not be reasonable to walk out. That's only an example what could happen if you left recently, but since it was last August you walked out that will have absolutely no bearing on sanctions.
and I was equally sure that this couldn't be right, but then started to doubt my own sanity.
Thanks for the clarification, there seem to be so many myths around about all this.
There are different tiers of sanctions and the one that applies here is ILS (intermediate level sanction). The longest period of sanction on an ILS for a first disallowance is 13 weeks. Even if a person has claimed within 13 weeks of walking out of work, it may still be 'allowed' if 'good cause' can be demonstrated to a decision maker. The full decision maker's guidance is available online but broadly speaking it works on person-in-the-street rules i.e. if you asked an average reasonable person with no prejudice to either side would the decision seem appropriate.
No brand new claim can be sanctioned from day 1 (and no reclaim can be sanctioned from day 1 either if it is outside of 'linking' periods, usually 26 weeks since the last claim). If there is a doubt on entitlement due to leaving voluntarily it is still referred to a decision maker and payments continue until a decision has been made, typically this takes 2-4 weeks.
With all this in mind, taking the OP's info at face value, it is not possible to sanction them for leaving voluntarily as the penalty for an ILS sanction has now expired. That is why I am 100% confident there will be no sanction if the situation is exactly as described by the OP as the time limits have long gone.
I have heard lots of myths by people, and for 'LV' (leaving voluntarily) cases some people think a sanction of 6 months applies regardless and don't bother to claim. I'm aware others think 6 months starts ticking from the day of the event but are unaware a decision maker can rule on 'good cause' and a penalty may not apply, so they wait for 6 months then put in a claim. 6 months is the old standard before ILS and HLS sanctions were applicable, but it was always a sliding scale. Now it is 13 weeks for an ILS unless good cause applies, but - and crucially as I already mentioned - the clock starts ticking from the last day a person worked. Technically a decision can be referred to a DM up to 6 months after the event but in practice it is the 13 weeks after the event happened, that's why I am so confident that since we're in Feb 14 and the OP left in Aug 13 there is no way a DM would pursue LV on this case.
Your version of what happens and Tigra Girl's are quite different. As I've said before, my understanding is the same as Tigra girl's. The difference seems to be about when the clock starts ticking.
If you're right, and if the OP left her job in August, why would she even have received a letter saying that her benefit 'may' be sanctioned? I know they make mistakes but they'll have all the dates. It seems to me that what's happened is that she gave her version of events, the former employer was asked for theirs, and it's now been passed to a decision maker. She will get a letter giving the decision - either she'll have been sanctioned or she won't. If she has she can ask for a mandatory reconsideration, and if that fails, she can appeal.
Gosh that was a long sentence, sorry!
These were my thoughts too Nell.
Saying that, I am confused why you think a sanction would apply after all this time since a person left a job? There has to be a cut-off point, and that cut-off is technically 6 months (13 weeks in practice usually). Otherwise you could sanction a person who let's say left work 10 years ago, was supported by their family, came into the Jobcentre, made a claim and they get sanctioned. That wouldn't happen, so I'm not sure why you think it is wrong the clock starts ticking after the event, not the date of claim?
I think the crucial thing is the date she left, as Nell said, if it was out of time why would they have sent the case up, it would have been rejected as out of time by the DM.
It implies she is still with the 6 months of leaving.
The Child Poverty Action Group gives this example:
A claimant is sanctioned for 13 weeks because it is decided that before her/his JSA claim, s/he had resigned from her/his job for no good reason. S/he claimed JSA four weeks after leaving the job, so the sanction period for the JSA claim is nine weeks. Six months later s/he is given details of a job to apply for by Jobcentre Plus but refuses to do so. A further 13-week sanction is applied. The 26-week sanction cannot be applied in this situation as the first failure does not count towards the escalation of sanctions.
http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/regime-change-sanctions-and-law-claimants
But that still doesn't explain what's happened in the OP's case, if she left her job in August.