I thought Racey were pretty good, and it is strange seeing them on Top Of The Pops back in 1977, appearing very serious with 'Baby It's You' (i think the song was written by members of the group, Smokie). 'Lay Your Love On Me' was the favourite single however, for me, and 'Some Girls' was good, if a little irritating after repeated listens. The problem, ultimately though, i think, is Racey just didn't have a strong enough visual and musical identity to truly separate them from the crowd. Their two big hit records would have probably sounded pretty similar, with a number of the groups, Chinn and Chapman, may have decided to offer those songs to (aside from perhaps Blondie!). To a lesser degree, that's also true of their previous collaborators like Mud (despite Les Gray's Elvis fixations), but Mud's fun image (and especially with regard to Les Gray and the feminine looking Rob Davis), and to a degree, sound, was much more likely to leave a more indelible impression. However, there's no denying both Mud and on occasions, Racey, made some great pop records.
More than most (and arguably including the memorable Sweet), Smokie were perhaps the group who had one of the most individual sounds that Chinn and Chapman worked with during the seventies, owing to the fact that they were a little less pure pop, and a little more folky. Those songs, for me, tend to stand alone a little more from the more typical Chinn and Chapman sounds. Suzi Quatro, of course, was pretty individual too.
It's difficult to assess whether leaving Chinn and Chapman was the true reason for the decline in Mud's fortunes. I tend to think a new generation were growing up around them who just felt like a change. I think you really do need to be distinctly special to be able to transcend fads and fashions of the day, and certainly during the seventies, and i'm not sure Mud truly were.
BIB1 - I'd say Racey's image was pretty clear - but unfortunately too close to other groups whose chart fortunes were in decline by 1979 (Showaddywaddy) or had plummeted altogether (Mud). Both groups relied on referencing the past in some way (Showaddywaddy's cover versions, Les Gray's Elvis obsession) and, by 1979, they seemed just a bit too dated against new wave, disco and the rising tide of electronic music. Attempts to replicate that kind of group were short-lived (Coast To Coast, anyone?) and even the Stray Cats, who supposedly had more credibility attached to them, didn't last that long.
BIB2 - rather than being folk-influenced, I'd argue that Smokie were more an attempt to create a more pop-orientated version of the Eagles … with one eye on the US market. I'm not aware they ever cracked the Billboard charts - although Chris Norman did land a Top 5 US hit with 'Stumblin' In' - his duet with Suzi Quatro (with didn't even make the Top 40 here). And I have to disagree with your comments on Sweet: the well-documented friction between the group and Chinnichap gave them a way more distinctive sound than Smokie … but then I would say that! ;-)
And now the 'ersham Boys do a bit of new wave-by-numbers. Dull.
Sham 69 were in a lot of trouble by 1979: their gigs were routinely infiltrated by the National Front/British Movement (the EDL of the time) and would descend into chaos.
So Polydor would have found themselves stuck with a group with a difficult reputation … maybe why a makeover of sorts was attempted, and they performed with vaguely new romantic-style scarves draped round their necks.
Not sure it was a record company mandated makeover, though. I think Jimmy Pursey had lots of fashion industry/arty friends. I am sure I remember some designer getting him to do some catwalk modelling for him/her decades later. Apparently he also paints pictures to raise money for a greyhound sanctuary (Hersham Hounds, awwww.) Sounds more of a softie than his punk persona allowed for? So I can imagine that visually the band were fine with a bit of experimentation that is less evident in the music. I would imagine it was the lack of progression in the music (compared to someone like Siouxsie and the Banshees) that lead to falling sales in the end.
Far-right 'fans' turning up to gigs also used to plague Madness but they just stared them down until they melted away.
BIB1 - I'd say Racey's image was pretty clear - but unfortunately too close to other groups whose chart fortunes were in decline by 1979 (Showaddywaddy) or had plummeted altogether (Mud). Both groups relied on referencing the past in some way (Showaddywaddy's cover versions, Les Gray's Elvis obsession) and, by 1979, they seemed just a bit too dated against new wave, disco and the rising tide of electronic music. Attempts to replicate that kind of group were short-lived (Coast To Coast, anyone?) and even the Stray Cats, who supposedly had more credibility attached to them, didn't last that long.
BIB2 - rather than being folk-influenced, I'd argue that Smokie were more an attempt to create a more pop-orientated version of the Eagles … with one eye on the US market. I'm not aware they ever cracked the Billboard charts - although Chris Norman did land a Top 5 US hit with 'Stumblin' In' - his duet with Suzi Quatro (with didn't even make the Top 40 here). And I have to disagree with your comments on Sweet: the well-documented friction between the group and Chinnichap gave them a way more distinctive sound than Smokie … but then I would say that! ;-)
Agree on Racey. Who wrote their stuff? Was it Chinnichap? If so, they had bigger fish to fry by 1979 obviously. Also, Rak would have been concerned with the relative failure of old reliable Hot Chocolate that year, with two flop singles--the dire Mindless Boogie and the excellent Going Through the Motions. By 1980, they would be back on track. And waiting in the wings was Kim Wilde, who Micky Most would have given much tine to as I believe he and Marty were old mates (Marty Wilde had written I'm a Tiger for Lulu way back when. But agree: identity is key and was key then.:(
Fascinating on Smokie. I remember them going on The Old Grey Whistle Test in 1975, and doing If You Think You Know How to Love Me and being presented as Chinnichap with credibility. That idea soon disappeared, but the fact was that, for me anyway, they were really good, and look at a song like It's My Life--well it is bloody good.:)
Living Next Door to Alice made the top thirty in the States early in 1977 I think. I am not sure if follow ups made the top hundred at all. I had not heard the Eagles analogy before but it is plausible. Alas, they did not make it in the States, although Stumblin' In was a top tenner--and never a hit over here?
I never knew why Smokie's hits dried up over here so suddenly. When I was in Germany in the Summer of 1979 they had a smash called Run to Me (or something similar) but I never heard it played over here.:)
It is sad to see good/ great group s stop having hits.:(
Not sure it was a record company mandated makeover, though. I think Jimmy Pursey had lots of fashion industry/arty friends. I am sure I remember some designer getting him to do some catwalk modelling for him/her decades later. Apparently he also paints pictures to raise money for a greyhound sanctuary (Hersham Hounds, awwww.) Sounds more of a softie than his punk persona allowed for? So I can imagine that visually the band were fine with a bit of experimentation that is less evident in the music. I would imagine it was the lack of progression in the music (compared to someone like Siouxsie and the Banshees) that lead to falling sales in the end.
Far-right 'fans' turning up to gigs also used to plague Madness but they just stared them down until they melted away.
From memory I think he did a lot of modelling.:)
I am not sure that Sham's sympathies were with the right wing element at all. As you say, this was a hazard at the time.:o
Not sure it was a record company mandated makeover, though. I think Jimmy Pursey had lots of fashion industry/arty friends. I am sure I remember some designer getting him to do some catwalk modelling for him/her decades later. Apparently he also paints pictures to raise money for a greyhound sanctuary (Hersham Hounds, awwww.) Sounds more of a softie than his punk persona allowed for? So I can imagine that visually the band were fine with a bit of experimentation that is less evident in the music. I would imagine it was the lack of progression in the music (compared to someone like Siouxsie and the Banshees) that lead to falling sales in the end.
Far-right 'fans' turning up to gigs also used to plague Madness but they just stared them down until they melted away.
Yes, the NF/BM skinheads did indeed try and page Madness, but given that 2Tone was founded on racial unity, it wouldn't be that difficult to turn their audience against far right fans. Sham 69 never had that kind of image, never associated themselves with reggae in the way The Clash, say, did and Pursey was very much 'working class-er than thou' and the gobby oik in his image, at the start, at least. I wouldn't for one moment suggest that the group had any sympathies with the far right - I recall Pursey being openly angry and upset about the trouble they caused - but the NF/BM contingent refused to let up and must have done the group some damage.
I too recall his arty side emerging … but I think that was after Sham 69 bit the dust.
Agree on Racey. Who wrote their stuff? Was it Chinnichap? If so, they had bigger fish to fry by 1979 obviously. Also, Rak would have been concerned with the relative failure of old reliable Hot Chocolate that year, with two flop singles--the dire Mindless Boogie and the excellent Going Through the Motions. By 1980, they would be back on track. And waiting in the wings was Kim Wilde, who Micky Most would have given much tine to as I believe he and Marty were old mates (Marty Wilde had written I'm a Tiger for Lulu way back when. But agree: identity is key and was key then.:(
Fascinating on Smokie. I remember them going on The Old Grey Whistle Test in 1975, and doing If You Think You Know How to Love Me and being presented as Chinnichap with credibility. That idea soon disappeared, but the fact was that, for me anyway, they were really good, and look at a song like It's My Life--well it is bloody good.:)
Living Next Door to Alice made the top thirty in the States early in 1977 I think. I am not sure if follow ups made the top hundred at all. I had not heard the Eagles analogy before but it is plausible. Alas, they did not make it in the States, although Stumblin' In was a top tenner--and never a hit over here?
I never knew why Smokie's hits dried up over here so suddenly. When I was in Germany in the Summer of 1979 they had a smash called Run to Me (or something similar) but I never heard it played over here.:)
It is sad to see good/ great group s stop having hits.:(
Smokie were always massive in Germany - much bigger than they were here, I think.
As for their demise, did they go the same way as Mud, desperate to free themselves of Chinnichap, and it all backfired? They failed to score a UK hit in 1979 and appeared for the last time with their best-known line-up covering a Bobby Vee song … Or had Mike Chapman abandoned songwriting for a career as a producer by then?
I have to defend 'Mindless Boogie', though - not one of HC's best, certainly, but a disco-esque track referencing the neutron bomb and the Jonestown Massacre has got to be worth something, if only in the surreal stakes! ;-)
BIB1 - I'd say Racey's image was pretty clear - but unfortunately too close to other groups whose chart fortunes were in decline by 1979 (Showaddywaddy) or had plummeted altogether (Mud). Both groups relied on referencing the past in some way (Showaddywaddy's cover versions, Les Gray's Elvis obsession) and, by 1979, they seemed just a bit too dated against new wave, disco and the rising tide of electronic music. Attempts to replicate that kind of group were short-lived (Coast To Coast, anyone?) and even the Stray Cats, who supposedly had more credibility attached to them, didn't last that long.
BIB2 - rather than being folk-influenced, I'd argue that Smokie were more an attempt to create a more pop-orientated version of the Eagles … with one eye on the US market. I'm not aware they ever cracked the Billboard charts - although Chris Norman did land a Top 5 US hit with 'Stumblin' In' - his duet with Suzi Quatro (with didn't even make the Top 40 here). And I have to disagree with your comments on Sweet: the well-documented friction between the group and Chinnichap gave them a way more distinctive sound than Smokie … but then I would say that! ;-)
You may well be right about Racey's image being too close to other groups, and also with regard to the new wave sounds making them sound a touch dated. However, for me Racey's image (and musical individuality) just didn't seem as strong as Mud's and Showaddywaddy's, in their prime, even if Showaddywaddy did primarily record cover versions of older songs.
My observations on Sweet (and i do believe they released some fabulous singles), is that despite their music appearing fairly heavy at times, and Mud's music being more traditionally rock 'n' roll and Elvis influenced, it doesn't take much listening to spot their music sort of sounds pretty similar too, and especially as the songs hit their choruses. It takes very little listening to spot the Chinn and Chapman sound with both Sweet and Mud. I think that may also be true of Smokie as well, to a degree, but Smokie tended to sound a little different too, at the same time. Maybe that may also have something to do with Smokie's style being a little more relaxed and more folk/ballad based. Chris Norman's voice tended to sound like no-one else, either.
Yes, Mud could certainly have recorded Racey's 'Some Girls' - it would have fit them perfectly!
Smokie were always massive in Germany - much bigger than they were here, I think.
I think they were huge in Germany. Not sure about these days in Germany, (I've never been there), but go in any German owned bar in Spain or The Canaries and it'll be pretty much guaranteed that you'll hear a Smokie song (or two) during the evening.
My observations on Sweet (and i do believe they released some fabulous singles), is that despite their music appearing fairly heavy at times, and Mud's music being more traditionally rock 'n' roll and Elvis influenced, it doesn't take much listening to spot their music sort of sounds pretty similar too, and especially as the songs hit their choruses. It takes very little listening to spot the Chinn and Chapman sound with both Sweet and Mud. I think that may also be true of Smokie as well, to a degree, but Smokie tended to sound a little different too, at the same time. Maybe that may also have something to do with Smokie's style being a little more relaxed and more folk/ballad based. Chris Norman's voice tended to sound like no-one else, either.
Yes, Mud could certainly have recorded Racey's 'Some Girls' - it would have fit them perfectly!
I think a lot of Chinn/Chap songs were potentially very inter changeable between the groups they wrote for at the time. I read somewhere once that they wrote 'Dyna-mite' for Sweet, (I think it would have become the follow up to Ballroom Blitz), but they turned it down and so it got given to Mud instead. I think equally, if they hadn't finished their relationship with Chinn/Chap Sweet would have ended up being given and recording some of the songs that Smokie subsequently did.
You may well be right about Racey's image being too close to other groups, and also with regard to the new wave sounds making them sound a touch dated. However, for me Racey's image (and musical individuality) just didn't seem as strong as Mud's and Showaddywaddy's, in their prime, even if Showaddywaddy did primarily record cover versions of older songs.
My observations on Sweet (and i do believe they released some fabulous singles), is that despite their music appearing fairly heavy at times, and Mud's music being more traditionally rock 'n' roll and Elvis influenced, it doesn't take much listening to spot their music sort of sounds pretty similar too, and especially as the songs hit their choruses. It takes very little listening to spot the Chinn and Chapman sound with both Sweet and Mud. I think that may also be true of Smokie as well, to a degree, but Smokie tended to sound a little different too, at the same time. Maybe that may also have something to do with Smokie's style being a little more relaxed and more folk/ballad based. Chris Norman's voice tended to sound like no-one else, either.
Yes, Mud could certainly have recorded Racey's 'Some Girls' - it would have fit them perfectly!
BIB - not sure I'd agree. Chinnichap may have been the hit factory of their day, and may have produced Mud - but they didn't produce Sweet, they only wrote songs for them … so, while they may have been stuffed full of hooks, I don't think there was a Chinnichap 'sound' in the same way there obviously was with SAW.
Sweet were constantly at loggerheads with Chinnichap and RCA and increasingly forced their own personalities and musicianship onto their singles, hence the rock sound that creeps in across 1973 into 1974 - a far cry from Grey's Elvis homages.
BIB - not sure I'd agree. Chinnichap may have been the hit factory of their day, and may have produced Mud - but they didn't produce Sweet, they only wrote songs for them … so, while they may have been stuffed full of hooks, I don't think there was a Chinnichap 'sound' in the same way there obviously was with SAW.
Sweet were constantly at loggerheads with Chinnichap and RCA and increasingly forced their own personalities and musicianship onto their singles, hence the rock sound that creeps in across 1973 into 1974 - a far cry from Grey's Elvis homages.
Maybe you are right, but the harmonies on the choruses of both Mud and Sweet songs do sound rather similar. The song structures are very much alike too, by and large - certainly more so than with Suzi Quatro and Smokie..
Mud's 'Dynamite' sounds almost identical to The Sweet, doesn't it ?
Also, Rak would have been concerned with the relative failure of old reliable Hot Chocolate that year, with two flop singles--the dire Mindless Boogie and the excellent Going Through the Motions. By 1980, they would be back on track.
It is sad to see good/ great group s stop having hits.:(
I have NEVER understood those two Hot Chocolate flops in 1979!! I think BOTH songs could've been classic disco hits but failed to make the Top 30!!! Unbelievable!
Also it was a travesty that Hot Chocolate's Every 1s A Winner failed to make the Top 10, the previous year!!
Smokie were always massive in Germany - much bigger than they were here, I think.
As for their demise, did they go the same way as Mud, desperate to free themselves of Chinnichap, and it all backfired? They failed to score a UK hit in 1979 and appeared for the last time with their best-known line-up covering a Bobby Vee song … Or had Mike Chapman abandoned songwriting for a career as a producer by then?
I have to defend 'Mindless Boogie', though - not one of HC's best, certainly, but a disco-esque track referencing the neutron bomb and the Jonestown Massacre has got to be worth something, if only in the surreal stakes! ;-)
Well, I do wonder what happened to Smokie? I do believe that their German hits dried up after 1980. I expect it was that Chinnichap for whatever reason were no longer involved. For Mike Chapman anyway, there were richer pickings in the States.
Mindless Boogie at the time did get some poor reviews (from memory). I wonder if DJs and critics just saw it as a bit oddball.:D
I have NEVER understood those two Hot Chocolate flops in 1979!! I think BOTH songs could've been classic disco hits but failed to make the Top 30!!! Unbelievable!
Also it was a travesty that Hot Chocolate's Every 1s A Winner failed to make the Top 10, the previous year!!
Going Through the Motions is one of my favourite records of 1979, so I agree.:)
Everyone's a Winner was probably their biggest US hit apart from You Sexy Thing. So the Americans at least understood.:)
They had a bit of a wobble here, though in 1978 to 1979. I think many of us thought that I'll Put You Together Again should have been bigger.:)
Maybe you are right, but the harmonies on the choruses of both Mud and Sweet songs do sound rather similar. The song structures are very much alike too, by and large - certainly more so than with Suzi Quatro and Smokie..
Mud's 'Dynamite' sounds almost identical to The Sweet, doesn't it ?
I do remember reading years ago that Dynamite was turned down by the Sweet.:o
I am glad if that is so because the song suits Mud's humour better.:)
I do not think they took themselves as seriously as the Sweet.
Don't get me wrong,though, I always will love the Sweet.:o
I think they were huge in Germany. Not sure about these days in Germany, (I've never been there), but go in any German owned bar in Spain or The Canaries and it'll be pretty much guaranteed that you'll hear a Smokie song (or two) during the evening.
I think a lot of Chinn/Chap songs were potentially very inter changeable between the groups they wrote for at the time. I read somewhere once that they wrote 'Dyna-mite' for Sweet, (I think it would have become the follow up to Ballroom Blitz), but they turned it down and so it got given to Mud instead. I think equally, if they hadn't finished their relationship with Chinn/Chap Sweet would have ended up being given and recording some of the songs that Smokie subsequently did.
Sorry, you got there first on the story about Dynamite being written for Sweet. I had not read your post when I posted above.
It does suggest though that the story might be right.
For all that Sweet and Mud were chalk and cheese. Quite different. I prefer the Sweet myself but they were both fine bands.:)
Sorry, you got there first on the story about Dynamite being written for Sweet. I had not read your post when I posted above.
It does suggest though that the story might be right.
For all that Sweet and Mud were chalk and cheese. Quite different. I prefer the Sweet myself but they were both fine bands.:)
On the contrary, I'm glad you heard the same because I wasn't totally sure about it and was worried I might be making things up!
Sweet were a great group, I'd probably list them in my top 10 bands of all time. I know they had a degree of success with their self penned stuff but in terms of their 'history' I wonder just how many more huge hits they could have had if they'd stuck with C & C and not made the split.
Not sure it was a record company mandated makeover, though. I think Jimmy Pursey had lots of fashion industry/arty friends. I am sure I remember some designer getting him to do some catwalk modelling for him/her decades later. Apparently he also paints pictures to raise money for a greyhound sanctuary (Hersham Hounds, awwww.) Sounds more of a softie than his punk persona allowed for? So I can imagine that visually the band were fine with a bit of experimentation that is less evident in the music. I would imagine it was the lack of progression in the music (compared to someone like Siouxsie and the Banshees) that lead to falling sales in the end.
Far-right 'fans' turning up to gigs also used to plague Madness but they just stared them down until they melted away.
Yes, the NF/BM skinheads did indeed try and page Madness, but given that 2Tone was founded on racial unity, it wouldn't be that difficult to turn their audience against far right fans. Sham 69 never had that kind of image, never associated themselves with reggae in the way The Clash, say, did and Pursey was very much 'working class-er than thou' and the gobby oik in his image, at the start, at least. I wouldn't for one moment suggest that the group had any sympathies with the far right - I recall Pursey being openly angry and upset about the trouble they caused - but the NF/BM contingent refused to let up and must have done the group some damage.
I too recall his arty side emerging … but I think that was after Sham 69 bit the dust.
A journalist at the NME slightly twisted Chas Smash's words during an interview which gave the impression he in some way supported the NF followers who were turning up to their gigs. He very much denied it after the interview was published, pointing out that he meant he wanted anyone to be able to come to a Madness gig and enjoy the music.
As a result of this misquoting, one of my favourite Madness tracks, 'Don't Quote Me On That,' was released on the 'Work Rest And Play' EP, better known for its leading track 'Nightboat to Cairo.'
Smokie were always massive in Germany - much bigger than they were here, I think.
As for their demise, did they go the same way as Mud, desperate to free themselves of Chinnichap, and it all backfired? They failed to score a UK hit in 1979 and appeared for the last time with their best-known line-up covering a Bobby Vee song … Or had Mike Chapman abandoned songwriting for a career as a producer by then?
Interesting to compare the success of Smokie, Mud and Sweet after they parted company with Chinnichap - Smokie only managed a couple of small UK hits (mexican girl/take good care of my baby), Sweet a couple of large ones (fox on the run/love is like oxygen) whereas Mud possibly had the most success of the three with another 4 hits including 3 top tens (l-l-lucy, show me you're a woman, shake it down, lean on me) after leaving RAK so they probably felt vindicated at the time, not that it was to last that long though of course...i love all three bands but definitely don't feel the same about racey
I think a lot of Chinn/Chap songs were potentially very inter changeable between the groups they wrote for at the time. I read somewhere once that they wrote 'Dyna-mite' for Sweet, (I think it would have become the follow up to Ballroom Blitz), but they turned it down and so it got given to Mud instead. I think equally, if they hadn't finished their relationship with Chinn/Chap Sweet would have ended up being given and recording some of the songs that Smokie subsequently did.
I can quite believe Sweet turned down 'Dyna-mite' - and they were quite right to. They were pushing their rock sound ever more during 1973 and it's hard to imagine how they could have done that with 'Dyna-mite'. 'Teenage Rampage' and 'The Six Teens' had a more aggressive edge to them than anything Mud did - and Sweet were increasingly keen to do anything they could to distance themselves from their Chinnichap association.
I'm sure RCA might have liked the idea of Sweet recording some of the songs Smokie did - but I'd wager the group themselves would've told them precisely where to get off. By the start of 1974, they had their sights set on playing on the same bill as The Who - and would've done had it not been for Brian Connolly being attacked - so softening their sound would've been the very last thing on their mind … and 'Fox On The Run', 'Action' and 'Love Is Like Oxygen' rather back that up.
The hurdle Sweet desperately wanted to get over, and never quite managed, was to be seen as a rock act, rather than a glam pop outfit. They certainly had the necessary musicianship but making a transition from a singles-led group with songs written by someone else to a credible rock group who could shift albums as well as singles is an extremely tough act to pull off. I wonder what they made of groups like Rainbow, who established a loyal core audience, then went mainstream with the likes of 'Since You've Been Gone' and 'I Surrender' … and pretty much got away with it.
A journalist at the NME slightly twisted Chas Smash's words during an interview which gave the impression he in some way supported the NF followers who were turning up to their gigs. He very much denied it after the interview was published, pointing out that he meant he wanted anyone to be able to come to a Madness gig and enjoy the music.
As a result of this misquoting, one of my favourite Madness tracks, 'Don't Quote Me On That,' was released on the 'Work Rest And Play' EP, better known for its leading track 'Nightboat to Cairo.'
The Logical Song was not the first single of the 1970s to include this sonic effect - a similar sound was heard in a Chinnichap single seven years earlier.
The whistle can be heard at 1.33 in the vintage TOTP clip below:
The last time I recall seeing John Helliwell on TOTP he was playing saxophone with Thin Lizzy during a studio performance of 'Dancing in the Moonlight' in August 1977. It is no great surprise that he was invited to play with the group as Supertramp's drummer is Scott Gorham's brother-in-law.
I suspect the FMs who commented above with respect to The Sweet etc. may find this short lived DS thread interesting and/or entertaining (see link below). Although it was initiated nearly five years ago in August 2009 and attracted comments for less than a week, I recognise the names of six regular/occasional TOTP contributors over the 2 pages, three of whom have posted on this thread during the past week.
I can quite believe Sweet turned down 'Dyna-mite' - and they were quite right to. They were pushing their rock sound ever more during 1973 and it's hard to imagine how they could have done that with 'Dyna-mite'. 'Teenage Rampage' and 'The Six Teens' had a more aggressive edge to them than anything Mud did - and Sweet were increasingly keen to do anything they could to distance themselves from their Chinnichap association.
I'm sure RCA might have liked the idea of Sweet recording some of the songs Smokie did - but I'd wager the group themselves would've told them precisely where to get off. By the start of 1974, they had their sights set on playing on the same bill as The Who - and would've done had it not been for Brian Connolly being attacked - so softening their sound would've been the very last thing on their mind … and 'Fox On The Run', 'Action' and 'Love Is Like Oxygen' rather back that up.
The hurdle Sweet desperately wanted to get over, and never quite managed, was to be seen as a rock act, rather than a glam pop outfit. They certainly had the necessary musicianship but making a transition from a singles-led group with songs written by someone else to a credible rock group who could shift albums as well as singles is an extremely tough act to pull off. I wonder what they made of groups like Rainbow, who established a loyal core audience, then went mainstream with the likes of 'Since You've Been Gone' and 'I Surrender' … and pretty much got away with it.
Of the glam acts only Slade just about manged to get over the glam pop era. They were a great rock band with a glam image. Rainbow or should I just say Ritchie Blackmore as really any image change was soley down to him. Got away with it because Ritchie was and still is a guitar genious and his presense overshadowd any change.
It was a shame that Sweet lost out though they could be quite arrogant. One of them sneeringly laughed at Francis Rossi when Paper Plane hit for Status Quo in 1973. "good luck with that he said" with a smirk.
thing is bands like Sweet and Mud used the same shuffle sound to most of their songs. That Quo had been doing since late 1969 onwards. Though they had more high profile sucsess with it during 1971-1972.
Comments
BIB1 - I'd say Racey's image was pretty clear - but unfortunately too close to other groups whose chart fortunes were in decline by 1979 (Showaddywaddy) or had plummeted altogether (Mud). Both groups relied on referencing the past in some way (Showaddywaddy's cover versions, Les Gray's Elvis obsession) and, by 1979, they seemed just a bit too dated against new wave, disco and the rising tide of electronic music. Attempts to replicate that kind of group were short-lived (Coast To Coast, anyone?) and even the Stray Cats, who supposedly had more credibility attached to them, didn't last that long.
BIB2 - rather than being folk-influenced, I'd argue that Smokie were more an attempt to create a more pop-orientated version of the Eagles … with one eye on the US market. I'm not aware they ever cracked the Billboard charts - although Chris Norman did land a Top 5 US hit with 'Stumblin' In' - his duet with Suzi Quatro (with didn't even make the Top 40 here). And I have to disagree with your comments on Sweet: the well-documented friction between the group and Chinnichap gave them a way more distinctive sound than Smokie … but then I would say that! ;-)
Sham 69 were in a lot of trouble by 1979: their gigs were routinely infiltrated by the National Front/British Movement (the EDL of the time) and would descend into chaos.
So Polydor would have found themselves stuck with a group with a difficult reputation … maybe why a makeover of sorts was attempted, and they performed with vaguely new romantic-style scarves draped round their necks.
Either way, it didn't work …
Far-right 'fans' turning up to gigs also used to plague Madness but they just stared them down until they melted away.
Agree on Racey. Who wrote their stuff? Was it Chinnichap? If so, they had bigger fish to fry by 1979 obviously. Also, Rak would have been concerned with the relative failure of old reliable Hot Chocolate that year, with two flop singles--the dire Mindless Boogie and the excellent Going Through the Motions. By 1980, they would be back on track. And waiting in the wings was Kim Wilde, who Micky Most would have given much tine to as I believe he and Marty were old mates (Marty Wilde had written I'm a Tiger for Lulu way back when. But agree: identity is key and was key then.:(
Fascinating on Smokie. I remember them going on The Old Grey Whistle Test in 1975, and doing If You Think You Know How to Love Me and being presented as Chinnichap with credibility. That idea soon disappeared, but the fact was that, for me anyway, they were really good, and look at a song like It's My Life--well it is bloody good.:)
Living Next Door to Alice made the top thirty in the States early in 1977 I think. I am not sure if follow ups made the top hundred at all. I had not heard the Eagles analogy before but it is plausible. Alas, they did not make it in the States, although Stumblin' In was a top tenner--and never a hit over here?
I never knew why Smokie's hits dried up over here so suddenly. When I was in Germany in the Summer of 1979 they had a smash called Run to Me (or something similar) but I never heard it played over here.:)
It is sad to see good/ great group s stop having hits.:(
From memory I think he did a lot of modelling.:)
I am not sure that Sham's sympathies were with the right wing element at all. As you say, this was a hazard at the time.:o
And on the Left there was Rock against Racism.:)
Yes, the NF/BM skinheads did indeed try and page Madness, but given that 2Tone was founded on racial unity, it wouldn't be that difficult to turn their audience against far right fans. Sham 69 never had that kind of image, never associated themselves with reggae in the way The Clash, say, did and Pursey was very much 'working class-er than thou' and the gobby oik in his image, at the start, at least. I wouldn't for one moment suggest that the group had any sympathies with the far right - I recall Pursey being openly angry and upset about the trouble they caused - but the NF/BM contingent refused to let up and must have done the group some damage.
I too recall his arty side emerging … but I think that was after Sham 69 bit the dust.
Smokie were always massive in Germany - much bigger than they were here, I think.
As for their demise, did they go the same way as Mud, desperate to free themselves of Chinnichap, and it all backfired? They failed to score a UK hit in 1979 and appeared for the last time with their best-known line-up covering a Bobby Vee song … Or had Mike Chapman abandoned songwriting for a career as a producer by then?
I have to defend 'Mindless Boogie', though - not one of HC's best, certainly, but a disco-esque track referencing the neutron bomb and the Jonestown Massacre has got to be worth something, if only in the surreal stakes! ;-)
You may well be right about Racey's image being too close to other groups, and also with regard to the new wave sounds making them sound a touch dated. However, for me Racey's image (and musical individuality) just didn't seem as strong as Mud's and Showaddywaddy's, in their prime, even if Showaddywaddy did primarily record cover versions of older songs.
My observations on Sweet (and i do believe they released some fabulous singles), is that despite their music appearing fairly heavy at times, and Mud's music being more traditionally rock 'n' roll and Elvis influenced, it doesn't take much listening to spot their music sort of sounds pretty similar too, and especially as the songs hit their choruses. It takes very little listening to spot the Chinn and Chapman sound with both Sweet and Mud. I think that may also be true of Smokie as well, to a degree, but Smokie tended to sound a little different too, at the same time. Maybe that may also have something to do with Smokie's style being a little more relaxed and more folk/ballad based. Chris Norman's voice tended to sound like no-one else, either.
Yes, Mud could certainly have recorded Racey's 'Some Girls' - it would have fit them perfectly!
I think they were huge in Germany. Not sure about these days in Germany, (I've never been there), but go in any German owned bar in Spain or The Canaries and it'll be pretty much guaranteed that you'll hear a Smokie song (or two) during the evening.
I think a lot of Chinn/Chap songs were potentially very inter changeable between the groups they wrote for at the time. I read somewhere once that they wrote 'Dyna-mite' for Sweet, (I think it would have become the follow up to Ballroom Blitz), but they turned it down and so it got given to Mud instead. I think equally, if they hadn't finished their relationship with Chinn/Chap Sweet would have ended up being given and recording some of the songs that Smokie subsequently did.
BIB - not sure I'd agree. Chinnichap may have been the hit factory of their day, and may have produced Mud - but they didn't produce Sweet, they only wrote songs for them … so, while they may have been stuffed full of hooks, I don't think there was a Chinnichap 'sound' in the same way there obviously was with SAW.
Sweet were constantly at loggerheads with Chinnichap and RCA and increasingly forced their own personalities and musicianship onto their singles, hence the rock sound that creeps in across 1973 into 1974 - a far cry from Grey's Elvis homages.
Maybe you are right, but the harmonies on the choruses of both Mud and Sweet songs do sound rather similar. The song structures are very much alike too, by and large - certainly more so than with Suzi Quatro and Smokie..
Mud's 'Dynamite' sounds almost identical to The Sweet, doesn't it ?
I have NEVER understood those two Hot Chocolate flops in 1979!!
Unbelievable!
Also it was a travesty that Hot Chocolate's Every 1s A Winner failed to make the Top 10, the previous year!!
Mindless Boogie at the time did get some poor reviews (from memory). I wonder if DJs and critics just saw it as a bit oddball.:D
Going Through the Motions is one of my favourite records of 1979, so I agree.:)
Everyone's a Winner was probably their biggest US hit apart from You Sexy Thing. So the Americans at least understood.:)
They had a bit of a wobble here, though in 1978 to 1979. I think many of us thought that I'll Put You Together Again should have been bigger.:)
I do remember reading years ago that Dynamite was turned down by the Sweet.:o
I am glad if that is so because the song suits Mud's humour better.:)
I do not think they took themselves as seriously as the Sweet.
Don't get me wrong,though, I always will love the Sweet.:o
It does suggest though that the story might be right.
For all that Sweet and Mud were chalk and cheese. Quite different. I prefer the Sweet myself but they were both fine bands.:)
On the contrary, I'm glad you heard the same because I wasn't totally sure about it and was worried I might be making things up!
Sweet were a great group, I'd probably list them in my top 10 bands of all time. I know they had a degree of success with their self penned stuff but in terms of their 'history' I wonder just how many more huge hits they could have had if they'd stuck with C & C and not made the split.
Not a patch on the 'Tiger Feet' dance!
A journalist at the NME slightly twisted Chas Smash's words during an interview which gave the impression he in some way supported the NF followers who were turning up to their gigs. He very much denied it after the interview was published, pointing out that he meant he wanted anyone to be able to come to a Madness gig and enjoy the music.
As a result of this misquoting, one of my favourite Madness tracks, 'Don't Quote Me On That,' was released on the 'Work Rest And Play' EP, better known for its leading track 'Nightboat to Cairo.'
"It's all eggs, bacon, beans, and a friiiiiiiiiiied slice...!"
Interesting to compare the success of Smokie, Mud and Sweet after they parted company with Chinnichap - Smokie only managed a couple of small UK hits (mexican girl/take good care of my baby), Sweet a couple of large ones (fox on the run/love is like oxygen) whereas Mud possibly had the most success of the three with another 4 hits including 3 top tens (l-l-lucy, show me you're a woman, shake it down, lean on me) after leaving RAK so they probably felt vindicated at the time, not that it was to last that long though of course...i love all three bands but definitely don't feel the same about racey
I can quite believe Sweet turned down 'Dyna-mite' - and they were quite right to. They were pushing their rock sound ever more during 1973 and it's hard to imagine how they could have done that with 'Dyna-mite'. 'Teenage Rampage' and 'The Six Teens' had a more aggressive edge to them than anything Mud did - and Sweet were increasingly keen to do anything they could to distance themselves from their Chinnichap association.
I'm sure RCA might have liked the idea of Sweet recording some of the songs Smokie did - but I'd wager the group themselves would've told them precisely where to get off. By the start of 1974, they had their sights set on playing on the same bill as The Who - and would've done had it not been for Brian Connolly being attacked - so softening their sound would've been the very last thing on their mind … and 'Fox On The Run', 'Action' and 'Love Is Like Oxygen' rather back that up.
The hurdle Sweet desperately wanted to get over, and never quite managed, was to be seen as a rock act, rather than a glam pop outfit. They certainly had the necessary musicianship but making a transition from a singles-led group with songs written by someone else to a credible rock group who could shift albums as well as singles is an extremely tough act to pull off. I wonder what they made of groups like Rainbow, who established a loyal core audience, then went mainstream with the likes of 'Since You've Been Gone' and 'I Surrender' … and pretty much got away with it.
I was an '80s Melody Maker reader so I can well believe the NME did that... /tribal loyalty ;-) Thanks LittleGirl that is interesting.
Servalan - yes he was a bit 'I'm considerable more more working class than you...'
The Logical Song was not the first single of the 1970s to include this sonic effect - a similar sound was heard in a Chinnichap single seven years earlier.
The whistle can be heard at 1.33 in the vintage TOTP clip below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKuE4RTsIe4
The last time I recall seeing John Helliwell on TOTP he was playing saxophone with Thin Lizzy during a studio performance of 'Dancing in the Moonlight' in August 1977. It is no great surprise that he was invited to play with the group as Supertramp's drummer is Scott Gorham's brother-in-law.
I suspect the FMs who commented above with respect to The Sweet etc. may find this short lived DS thread interesting and/or entertaining (see link below). Although it was initiated nearly five years ago in August 2009 and attracted comments for less than a week, I recognise the names of six regular/occasional TOTP contributors over the 2 pages, three of whom have posted on this thread during the past week.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1116773
Of the glam acts only Slade just about manged to get over the glam pop era. They were a great rock band with a glam image. Rainbow or should I just say Ritchie Blackmore as really any image change was soley down to him. Got away with it because Ritchie was and still is a guitar genious and his presense overshadowd any change.
It was a shame that Sweet lost out though they could be quite arrogant. One of them sneeringly laughed at Francis Rossi when Paper Plane hit for Status Quo in 1973. "good luck with that he said" with a smirk.
thing is bands like Sweet and Mud used the same shuffle sound to most of their songs. That Quo had been doing since late 1969 onwards. Though they had more high profile sucsess with it during 1971-1972.