No this incident really happened, I phoned the ambulance and stayed with the man until the ambulance crew arrived and were talking to him. So why do you say "you don't come across very well in this"?
I don't know how often you dial 999, in my case the last time was about 10 years ago when a girl was being beaten up by a drunken boyfriend outside my house early one Sunday morning.. I phoned for the police, went outside and shouted at the man who was very abusive. The police had to call for reinforcements to get him into a police van.
So yes I do what is necessary in emergency situations. I did help the man by calling the ambulance and stayed with him, so what would you have done?
I would have stood beside him, held his hand if needed, put my arm around him. Felt his pulse and spoke to him even offer to ring someone else for him, not stand 12 feet away as if I was going to catch something from him.
OK - I didn't realise the ambulance was despatched before they started asking the questions. it arrived about 5 minutes after I ended the call although the ambulance station isn't far away.
As for taking his pulse, is that really a job for the untrained? I had already told them he had severe chest pains, symptoms of either a heart attack or angina.
But you were still afraid he would beat you up?
To be honest, your whole post makes you sound like a dithering wet blanket. How about stepping up to the plate?
The ambulance would have been despatched as soon as you made the call, the questions are been asked as the ambulance is en-route. Though you might not think that at the time.
I'm not so sure. I have been in a similar situation and after 10 minutes of questions was told the situation did not require any emergency services. It was a man in his 80s who was injured in a fall and unable to move.
It's inevitable anyway. Can we really expect the same standards of services and health care when immigration is putting so much strain on them?
To be honest, your whole post makes you sound like a dithering wet blanket. How about stepping up to the plate?
I object to thaT - YOU ARE OUT OF ORDER. I did try asking him a couple of their questions, he became agitated and I thought it was making him worse. I explained that to the operator.
OP did all he could and all he felt comfortable with. "I'd have put my arm round him" - really?
To answer your question OP, they do ask a lot to gauge what they're going out to, they can begin to make decisions such as which hospital to transfer to and so on. You're not expected to do any more than is asked and you're under no obligation to actually do any of it.
OP did all he could and all he felt comfortable with. "I'd have put my arm round him" - really?
To answer your question OP, they do ask a lot to gauge what they're going out to, they can begin to make decisions such as which hospital to transfer to and so on. You're not expected to do any more than is asked and you're under no obligation to actually do any of it.
Thank you - I don't take it personally. I saw somebody walk straight past the man just before he stopped me.
It was the first time I had called 999 for an ambulance, the questions would make perfect sense if put to someone who knew the patient. I didn't and putting them to him for the operator seemed to be making him worse.
Its gone horrendous.
it was bad enough when I had septicaemia and mum and dad waited nearly 1hr 30 mins for an ambulance. but mum went really ill last year and after three 999 calls we found out this system they used had classed her low priority it turned out not only did she have a three chamber prolapse but her bladder was in severe danger of rupturing. We made a complaint about the treatment and guess what another big huge Fob off.
Basically from what we have learned unless you are already not breathing or they suspect a heart attack get ready for hell (but this is wales)
Thank you - I don't take it personally. I saw somebody walk straight past the man just before he stopped me.
It was the first time I had called 999 for an ambulance, the questions would make perfect sense if put to someone who knew the patient. I didn't and putting them to him for the operator seemed to be making him worse.
Hell - You can't do right for doing wrong>:(
Considering the strength of the so called 'by-stander effect' I think anyone who assists in any way needs a pat on the back.
I'm sure the bloke you got assistance for is a lot more appreciative than this lot
The operator actually said "It's OK if you don't feel comfortable taking his pulse".
Even if I had done, would it have made much difference, what could I have done if it wasn't normal?
Some of the Questions Being asked I do think will scare people off.
Apparently its down to this new "tick box" diagnostic software they use
and basically if a pulse can be felt./heart beat General condition of the person unwell
its then put into various levels of attention.
you make a really valid point we ring 999 because there is an emergency unless you have a medical background we are relying on these people for help. Its like Ive seen people using thumb to take a pulse making it totally pointless because the thumb has its own pulse and will give a false reading.
Yes, pretty normal questions. They might seem random, or unnecessary, but it helps to give more information to the crew, even if they do ask the questions again when the arrive. When I had to call 999 for my mum when she had a heart attack, they asked all the questions bar the pulse question, the medication question is quite a handy reminder, as although i don't know all the meds she's on, I know where she keeps it, so i could just pick it up and give it to them
Yes, pretty normal questions. They might seem random, or unnecessary, but it helps to give more information to the crew, even if they do ask the questions again when the arrive. When I had to call 999 for my mum when she had a heart attack, they asked all the questions bar the pulse question, the medication question is quite a handy reminder, as although i don't know all the meds she's on, I know where she keeps it, so i could just pick it up and give it to them
Yes if you know the person and have some knowledge of their medical history.
In this case I didn't and the man didn't want to talk, maybe it was making his symptoms worse.
You sound a bit pedantic to be honest. Do you honestly think the operator would ask those questions if not necessary and part of the information they provide to the ambulance (which would have been despatched immediately). Imagine he dropped dead on the spot and had no ID etc. They would have a hard time locating his family to tell them. At least if they have a registered doctor that's where they can obtain that information.
You sound a bit pedantic to be honest. Do you honestly think the operator would ask those questions if not necessary and part of the information they provide to the ambulance (which would have been despatched immediately). Imagine he dropped dead on the spot and had no ID etc. They would have a hard time locating his family to tell them. At least if they have a registered doctor that's where they can obtain that information.
As I explained, I didn't know the man, trying to talk seemed to make his condition worse and he wasn't keen to talk - which I explained to the operator. The man remained on his feet until the ambulance arrived, he did not collapse and the operator also knew that. The crew guided him to the ambulance he didn't need a chair.
Good grief. If just finished reading this thread and I'm horrified by the reactions of some FM's. The OP did what they felt right in the circumstances, but the righteous other forum members feel they would have done better.
I think the OP did what could be expected of any reasonable passer by. The call operator should have made it clear to the OP that an ambulance was on it's way (the OP is a random member of the public, the call handler should never expect that a member of the public knows the protocol). Also, as far as checking pulse is concerned, there are ways to do this (if done the wrong way then your own pulse can get in the way) and I don't think it should be put upon a member of the public to check someone's pulse.
I had a situation where I saw someone lying on the pavement from my window (I live a few floors up) early one morning. I phoned an ambulance while my partner went down to assist the person. Despite repeatedly telling the operator that I was looking at the person from my eighth floor window, she carried on through a list of questions which I was obviously unable to answer. I think they just have a script to follow no matter the individual circumstances and while I understand why she was asking the questions, it seemed a bit silly that I had to keep replying "I don't know, I'm eight floors away and looking out a window".
I think the OP did what could be expected of any reasonable passer by. The call operator should have made it clear to the OP that an ambulance was on it's way (the OP is a random member of the public, the call handler should never expect that a member of the public knows the protocol). Also, as far as checking pulse is concerned, there are ways to do this (if done the wrong way then your own pulse can get in the way) and I don't think it should be put upon a member of the public to check someone's pulse.
If they work to a "box ticking" protocol, they are just doing as they are told.
I did take a St John's Ambulance first aid course 40 years ago. In that time, I have never needed to give first aid to anyone and certainly wouldn't now as much of what was taught then is probably considered wrong or even dangerous now. Tourniquets anyone?
I have never been asked to feel anyone's pulse in my life and was really surprised when the operator asked me to do that.
This relates to an incident that happened near my house this morning.
I was walking to a local shop when I walked past a man who was leaning against a garden wall, he asked me to call an ambulance as he had severe chest pains and thought he was having a heart attack. So I did what any reasonable person would have done, I dialled 999 and reached the emergency operator. I gave my details, location and nature of the emergency and explained it was not for me but for another person, someone I did not know and had never met previously. I described the symptoms when requested.
At this point the operator asked me for his name which I obtained from him and then Is his skin turning pale? (it wasn't). Who is his doctor?
Is he on medication?
what medication is he on?
What is the medication for?
Does he have the medication with him?
Does he have any other health conditions?
Who is his carer?
The questions seemed to last for ever.....
By this time the man was becoming more distressed and the I asked the operator why I was being asked these questions when it was an emergency and these details could be obtained later. I was told this was standard procedure, even though the man was clearly in distress and I could not answer the questions as I did not know him. The operator then asked me to feel the man's skin to see if it was cold and clammy and also to take his pulse. I refused to do this for the following reasons
- The man could have had a mental health condition and become potentially violent - I don't know how to diagnose psychiatric illness. Why should I be asked to put myself at risk of violence? People have attacked people trying to help them.
- If I had touched the man without his permission, is that not a definition of common assault under the law?
The operator then told me an ambulance was being despatched and it arrived within a few minutes. I briefly described the situation to the crew, they took the man inside the ambulance and I left the scene. I assume he would have been taken to the local A&E for appropriate treatment.
Is this how 999 ambulance calls are handled these days? I thought the aim was to get a crew to the scene as quickly as possible, trained people who know what to do. What was the point of the questions when I could not answer them?
What would other people have done?
I'd have just said."Sorry, no idea. I'm just a passer by, and he's too ill to answer any questions. I've got to go, sorry. You'll find him at the corner of Acacia Avenue, and All Saints Boulevard"
They would still have sent an ambulance, and actually I would have stopped with him. But the questions pre-suppose you are a close relative. As soon as you say you're a passer by in the bloody street, you'd think anyone with half a brain would act accordingly.
Sadly, they have a ticklist, and are not allowed to use commonsense.
I had a situation where I saw someone lying on the pavement from my window (I live a few floors up) early one morning. I phoned an ambulance while my partner went down to assist the person. Despite repeatedly telling the operator that I was looking at the person from my eighth floor window, she carried on through a list of questions which I was obviously unable to answer. I think they just have a script to follow no matter the individual circumstances and while I understand why she was asking the questions, it seemed a bit silly that I had to keep replying "I don't know, I'm eight floors away and looking out a window".
..and this is the problem with them having to follow a script.
The last time I phoned an ambulance was for my OH and I (pretty much) knew his medical history but I have phoned for one for a stranger before and despite saying I had stopped the car when I saw him collapsed at the side of the road I was asked a lot of questions which I had no chance of being able to answer. As he was disorientated after the fall he was unable to answer them too.
I take the point that they are following a procedure but sometimes a bit of common sense would help.
Comments
I would have stood beside him, held his hand if needed, put my arm around him. Felt his pulse and spoke to him even offer to ring someone else for him, not stand 12 feet away as if I was going to catch something from him.
But you were still afraid he would beat you up?
To be honest, your whole post makes you sound like a dithering wet blanket. How about stepping up to the plate?
I'm not so sure. I have been in a similar situation and after 10 minutes of questions was told the situation did not require any emergency services. It was a man in his 80s who was injured in a fall and unable to move.
It's inevitable anyway. Can we really expect the same standards of services and health care when immigration is putting so much strain on them?
I object to thaT - YOU ARE OUT OF ORDER. I did try asking him a couple of their questions, he became agitated and I thought it was making him worse. I explained that to the operator.
OP did all he could and all he felt comfortable with. "I'd have put my arm round him" - really?
To answer your question OP, they do ask a lot to gauge what they're going out to, they can begin to make decisions such as which hospital to transfer to and so on. You're not expected to do any more than is asked and you're under no obligation to actually do any of it.
Thank you - I don't take it personally. I saw somebody walk straight past the man just before he stopped me.
It was the first time I had called 999 for an ambulance, the questions would make perfect sense if put to someone who knew the patient. I didn't and putting them to him for the operator seemed to be making him worse.
Hell - You can't do right for doing wrong>:(
it was bad enough when I had septicaemia and mum and dad waited nearly 1hr 30 mins for an ambulance. but mum went really ill last year and after three 999 calls we found out this system they used had classed her low priority it turned out not only did she have a three chamber prolapse but her bladder was in severe danger of rupturing. We made a complaint about the treatment and guess what another big huge Fob off.
Basically from what we have learned unless you are already not breathing or they suspect a heart attack get ready for hell (but this is wales)
Considering the strength of the so called 'by-stander effect' I think anyone who assists in any way needs a pat on the back.
I'm sure the bloke you got assistance for is a lot more appreciative than this lot
The operator actually said "It's OK if you don't feel comfortable taking his pulse".
Even if I had done, would it have made much difference, what could I have done if it wasn't normal?
To be fair, they'd have known at least that being conscious and in pain meant he had some sort of pulse
I've been on the line with my then hubby in pain and I couldn't answer their questions about him.
Some of the Questions Being asked I do think will scare people off.
Apparently its down to this new "tick box" diagnostic software they use
and basically if a pulse can be felt./heart beat General condition of the person unwell
its then put into various levels of attention.
you make a really valid point we ring 999 because there is an emergency unless you have a medical background we are relying on these people for help. Its like Ive seen people using thumb to take a pulse making it totally pointless because the thumb has its own pulse and will give a false reading.
Yes if you know the person and have some knowledge of their medical history.
In this case I didn't and the man didn't want to talk, maybe it was making his symptoms worse.
As I explained, I didn't know the man, trying to talk seemed to make his condition worse and he wasn't keen to talk - which I explained to the operator. The man remained on his feet until the ambulance arrived, he did not collapse and the operator also knew that. The crew guided him to the ambulance he didn't need a chair.
Thank you - I hope he makes a full recovery.
If nothing else, I have learned a few things if something similar happens again.
You were not there. Don't judge others.
Well done OP for doing what you did.
If they work to a "box ticking" protocol, they are just doing as they are told.
I did take a St John's Ambulance first aid course 40 years ago. In that time, I have never needed to give first aid to anyone and certainly wouldn't now as much of what was taught then is probably considered wrong or even dangerous now. Tourniquets anyone?
I have never been asked to feel anyone's pulse in my life and was really surprised when the operator asked me to do that.
I'd have just said."Sorry, no idea. I'm just a passer by, and he's too ill to answer any questions. I've got to go, sorry. You'll find him at the corner of Acacia Avenue, and All Saints Boulevard"
They would still have sent an ambulance, and actually I would have stopped with him. But the questions pre-suppose you are a close relative. As soon as you say you're a passer by in the bloody street, you'd think anyone with half a brain would act accordingly.
Sadly, they have a ticklist, and are not allowed to use commonsense.
..and this is the problem with them having to follow a script.
The last time I phoned an ambulance was for my OH and I (pretty much) knew his medical history but I have phoned for one for a stranger before and despite saying I had stopped the car when I saw him collapsed at the side of the road I was asked a lot of questions which I had no chance of being able to answer. As he was disorientated after the fall he was unable to answer them too.
I take the point that they are following a procedure but sometimes a bit of common sense would help.