If the music is played over one system and is played to a public audience, so a factory playing CD's etc or a music radio station over a PA would class as that, then you have to have a PRS Licence as it is classed as a public performance. If you played a radio station such as LBC which is pure talk radio then there is no obligation to have a PRS licence.
The PRS are at present in the middle of a campaign which inlcudes rather threatening phone calls to businesses and try and convince people they need to get licensed.
I run a hotel business and they have been on to us, I have no problem with a PRS Licence for those premises that have a bar and play music, but I have no intention of licensing some of our premises that are purely Bed and Breakfast style Hotel accommodation with no bar and a reception and rooms. There is no legal requirement for a PRS Licence for hotel rooms as it is legally not classed as a Public Performance and I have had three very heated calls with the PRS over this in the last week.
The PRS are including in their present telephone campaign music played whilst on hold on the telephone, even if it is not music but digital tones , as long as it is based on a tune then they say one requires a PRS Licence, we have now removed our music on hold and have a boring message instead.I have no obejction to people earning money but I get a little sick of it trying to be grabbed at every corner.
During one call this week the overbearing rude woman at the PRS said that she acknowledged that we licensed some of our premises and that some of our hotel premises may not have bars , but she said that in those premsies we have rooms with TV's and even though they have TV licences that licence covers broadcast programmes but does not cover the theme tunes on programmes or the music played in them. When I asked about how they intended to implement this in peoples homes she said that a hotel room was classed as a public place , to which I informed her she was incorrect in both EU law and UK law , and that according to the government it was definitely not a public place as that is why smoking is still allowed in Hotel rooms as it is classed as someones temporary accommodation be it for one night or ten. At that point she told me I would be hearing from them and put the phone down. Ten minutes later she called again on another number not realising she had the same hotel....
But back on track , if the music played is in a private office then no PRS licence is needed, if it is deliberately played for all to hear then one is.
So as long as the Radio is privately owned there's nothing they can do?
So what happens if the boss bought the radio or the company pipes the radio over the pa system?
No, it doesn't matter who provided the equiptment - it is still a public broadcast. The company will have to take responsibilty for it as they will have allowed you to listen to the music on your own CDs or radio.
But if there is no chance of the PRS checking up on you don't waste your money, but if you have somewhere that is open to the public (shop, bar etc) it would be advisable to pay up.
The PRS are at present in the middle of a campaign which inlcudes rather threatening phone calls to businesses and try and convince people they need to get licensed.
This is partly because many artists are starting to ditch their labels, and it's the labels that get paid by the PRS, not the artists.
If the labels no longer own current music, the PRS can't collect on their behalf.
(OT, one of the models artists are working on to earn money is this: Music is free, released online. All money would be made via merchandising and live performances - if it proves viable, the music industry as we know it is utterly screwed.)
This is partly because many artists are starting to ditch their labels, and it's the labels that get paid by the PRS, not the artists.
If the labels no longer own current music, the PRS can't collect on their behalf.
(OT, one of the models artists are working on to earn money is this: Music is free, released online. All money would be made via merchandising and live performances - if it proves viable, the music industry as we know it is utterly screwed.)
And having met many of them over the years ( the music industry execs that is , on a business basis ) what a shame that would be for us all ....
How do, the PRS, know who qualifies for a payment?
I don't know, but I would guess it has to do with the fact that CD's/DVD's etc have the words "any unauthorised public performance is strictly prohibited" (or words to that effect) written on their covers. But I suppose it is what constitutes a "public performance", that is the determining criteria.
With regard to the radio, who is doing the performing, the radio station, or the organisation that pipes it down their own personal PA system ? Individual CD's, I can understand, but the radio itself might pose an interesting legal conundrum.
Does anybody know of any organisation successfully prosecuted by the PRS for broadcasting a public radio transmission to their employees or whatever ?
What piece of legislation is all this covered by ?
I don't know, but I would guess it has to do with the fact that CD's/DVD's etc have the words "any unauthorised public performance is strictly prohibited" (or words to that effect) written on their covers. But I suppose it is what constitutes a "public performance", that is the determining criteria.
With regard to the radio, who is doing the performing, the radio station, or the organisation that pipes it down their own personal PA system ? Individual CD's, I can understand, but the radio itself might pose an interesting legal conundrum.
Does anybody know of any organisation successfully prosecuted by the PRS for broadcasting a public radio transmission to their employees or whatever ?
What piece of legislation is all this covered by ?
The PRS is a non-profit organisation representing the artists and publishers of the music.
Radio Stations have to pay the PRS in order to broadcast copyrighted music but organisations also have to have a licence to use the music contained in that broadcast as a 'public performance'. This means that if you pipe a radio station at work or allow employees to bring in radios so that the staff can hear music at work, you need to pay for a PRS licence
It's copyright law - specifically the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
The PRS is a non-profit organisation representing the artists and publishers of the music.
Radio Stations have to pay the PRS in order to broadcast copyrighted music but organisations also have to have a licence to use the music contained in that broadcast as a 'public performance'. This means that if you pipe a radio station at work or allow employees to bring in radios so that the staff can hear music at work, you need to pay for a PRS licence
It's copyright law - specifically the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
I understand what your saying, but the income generated from the licence, whom do they pay and doe's one qualify, surely they can't pay every record producer?
Does anybody know of any organisation successfully prosecuted by the PRS for broadcasting a public radio transmission to their employees or whatever ?
Kwik Fit were carping about it in a radio news item a few weeks back. They banned piped music years ago but turn a blind eye to old personal radios on a shelf in the workshop. They were warned by the PRS but used the excuse that it was the workers actions not the company. Any basic legal advice would tell them employees and premises are deemed to be under their control, it sounded like they were dragging their heels rather than putting forward a genuine defence.
The PRS steadily notch up the pressure, countering the same old arguments, until the employer gets the message. Very few cases actually end up in court because copyright law, whatever personal views are held on its fairness, is the law.
Kwik Fit were carping about it in a radio news item a few weeks back. They banned piped music years ago but turn a blind eye to old personal radios on a shelf in the workshop. They were warned by the PRS but used the excuse that it was the workers actions not the company. Any basic legal advice would tell them employees and premises are deemed to be under their control, it sounded like they were dragging their heels rather than putting forward a genuine defence.
The PRS steadily notch up the pressure, countering the same old arguments, until the employer gets the message. Very few cases actually end up in court because copyright law, whatever personal views are held on its fairness, is the law.
Very interesting. Of course, that is just one company among many thousands. At our place people tend to bring in radios when working overtime on a Saturday. Sometimes, people are within earshot, sometimes they're not. But eitherway, I'd imagine it would not be possible to enforce it, as the building is a private one, not accessible to outsiders.
Also, what about various individuals who play their radios in their back gardens, or CD's with the bedroom window open. Surely there has to be a practical limit of realism ?
The other place that springs readily to mind is "you tube". Not quite the same thing, but myriad numbers of music items uploaded to their website, freely available for anyone to play. Where do they stand, I wonder ?
I understand what your saying, but the income generated from the licence, whom do they pay and doe's one qualify, surely they can't pay every record producer?
The revenue is distributed to composers, though what formula they use these days I wouldn't know. Radio stations have to provide details of all music played, and although I think they have relaxed the reporting requirements for smaller stations a bit in recent years, the bigger ones still have to make full returns. For most small stations there are normally periods of a few days when PRS notify them that they might record the output and go through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure they're getting accurate returns.
Obviously they can't know what music has been played in a shop, so there is presumably some sort of random sampling to determine who gets what - or it might be based on some sort of average of what the broadcasters have reported. It can't be total guesswork, as I once heard Noddy Holder say that he always looks forward to the PRS cheque he gets some time each spring which covers the Christmas period when everyone is playing Slade's Merry Christmas Everybody!
The revenue is distributed to composers, though what formula they use these days I wouldn't know. Radio stations have to provide details of all music played, and although I think they have relaxed the reporting requirements for smaller stations a bit in recent years, the bigger ones still have to make full returns. For most small stations there are normally periods of a few days when PRS notify them that they might record the output and go through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure they're getting accurate returns.
I remember doing this when I worked for hospital radio now you mention it. I didn't equate it as it being for the same thing and didn't realise that you'd need a licence to play a radio in the workplace. Makes sense now though, I suppose.
It also affects internet radio - there were campaigning emails a while back from Pandora.com about performance rights fees being enforced and affecting their viability.
The era of British pop music is now starting to fall out of copyright. Soon Cliff Richard's early hits will be copyright free followed in a couple of years by the early Beatles. Within ten years, there could be an audience for copyright free radio.
The revenue is distributed to composers, though what formula they use these days I wouldn't know. Radio stations have to provide details of all music played, and although I think they have relaxed the reporting requirements for smaller stations a bit in recent years, the bigger ones still have to make full returns. For most small stations there are normally periods of a few days when PRS notify them that they might record the output and go through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure they're getting accurate returns.
BBC Radio & Tv send back details of every piece of music over 3 seconds, whether it is on the radio or just used on a tv promo.
Commercial radio have sampling days. For smaller stations (Like The Wolf or Palm Fm) usually twice a year, bigger stations (like Capital or BRMB) could be more often or for several days in a row.
They send back the details of every piece of music played over 3 seconds for that period.Title/artist/length they aired/record number. For small stations with a limited number of staff these exercises are very time consuming & a complete pain to do.
The reality of course is that those artists that get a load of commercial airplay (James Blunt, Pink, Eurythmics etc) probably do ok out of it. The golden hour/top 10 @ 10 songs that only appear in these features (Black/Charlene/Men Without Hats etc) will get nothing unless they happen to be played on the sample day(s)
Not a very good system really
The fact that the radio station has already paid to play these songs to the public seems to pass PRS by. Still never let a fact like that stand in the way of collecting more cash from the public.
Very interesting. Of course, that is just one company among many thousands. At our place people tend to bring in radios when working overtime on a Saturday. Sometimes, people are within earshot, sometimes they're not. But eitherway, I'd imagine it would not be possible to enforce it, as the building is a private one, not accessible to outsiders.
Kwik-Fit's proplem was that the music could be heard in the customer areas so the PRS could find just by going in. If the music from the workshop couldn't be heard by the customers the PRS wouldn't have ben able to get the evidence to take them to court.
Kwik-Fit's defence was also a bit stupid - "we told our staff it was against the rules", but didn't make any effort to enforce those rules on the staff who were their responsibilty while they were at work.
Obviously they can't know what music has been played in a shop, so there is presumably some sort of random sampling to determine who gets what - or it might be based on some sort of average of what the broadcasters have reported.
Most large retailers get their music provided by satellite radio services like this, so those companies will be able to provide PRS with records of what was played and to how many shops.
That just leave the other places like smaller shops and bars etc who play the radio, CDs or the TV - I suppose it must be something like an average across all the other broadcasters or maybe they just work it out as percentages from the reported ones and apply that to everything.
How many countries have a similar law, to the U.K, about playing music in shops/garages etc?
It's not the law as such. The law is that you can only use copyrighted material within the conditions allowed by the copyright holder, so if the copyright holder says you can only use their work to play in public with an additional fee that is a legally enforcable rule.
I have really had enough of the PRS now, 7 calls , 7 calls today from them , each one a different person informing me that we need a PRS Licence for those premises we do not have them for.
I have politely informed them again that it was seen and decided by government during the implementation of the Smoking Ban that Hotel rooms are not classed as public places but as temporary accommodation. Therefore to my mind the watching of TV by a Hotel guest in their room is not a public performace , I agree it would be be different if it were in the bar etc but it is not.
The last woman I spoke to warned me that my call was being recorded , she did not know what to say when I asked if she would be paying me royalties for recording my voice.
They really are going overbaord in this current campign.
I have really had enough of the PRS now, 7 calls , 7 calls today from them , each one a different person informing me that we need a PRS Licence for those premises we do not have them for.
I have politely informed them again that it was seen and decided by government during the implementation of the Smoking Ban that Hotel rooms are not classed as public places but as temporary accommodation. Therefore to my mind the watching of TV by a Hotel guest in their room is not a public performace , I agree it would be be different if it were in the bar etc but it is not.
The last woman I spoke to warned me that my call was being recorded , she did not know what to say when I asked if she would be paying me royalties for recording my voice.
They really are going overbaord in this current campign.
Personally i think you should report them to the police for harrasing you.
No business should really have to pay anyway.
If Radio 1 play Pink, or Local FM play Abba, those stations already paying PRS to play those songs to the public. It should make no difference as to whether 1 person listens to that song in their bedroom or 100 people in a factory. The radio station will pay PRS for the public performance of that song.
OK then, what about prisons. You have at least 500 cons, most in individual cells and ALL have radios, not to mention TV`s. Even if they play their radios loud enough for only them to hear (which they don`t) anyone walking down the landing can hear it, therefore a public performance. Have the cons had all their radio`s removed or are they forced to wear earphones ? Of course not ! They are exempt from it all as some arsehole has now determined that an inmates cell is now his home. Also, they do not pay towards a TV licence as one solitary licence covers the whole prison. They pay 50 pence a week for the "rent" of a TV. Needless to say, all communal areas for cons are also exempt from the PRS licence but staff have been ordered to remove all radios from offices. So, if you wish to listen to a radio without fear of any reprisals, mug,steal,rob,maim or kill and get yourself in to your nearest nick. Its a great life ! ( So long as you don`t have to work there. !!! ) :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
But back on track , if the music played is in a private office then no PRS licence is needed, if it is deliberately played for all to hear then one is.
I have an office with 3 of us in it. We dont have a radio, but do have a TV. We only ever have Sky News or one of the Sky Sports Channels on and we have been told that because the channels have adverts, and those adverts have music we have to pay!!!!! I suggested that i would see them in court and we have heard no more ..... for now
No it didn`t, as it happens. This is a recent issue which concerns a place of work. I googled the subject and this thread came up. Don`t worry, I typed this reply extremely slowly because I surmised that you can`t read very fast !
Comments
The PRS are at present in the middle of a campaign which inlcudes rather threatening phone calls to businesses and try and convince people they need to get licensed.
I run a hotel business and they have been on to us, I have no problem with a PRS Licence for those premises that have a bar and play music, but I have no intention of licensing some of our premises that are purely Bed and Breakfast style Hotel accommodation with no bar and a reception and rooms. There is no legal requirement for a PRS Licence for hotel rooms as it is legally not classed as a Public Performance and I have had three very heated calls with the PRS over this in the last week.
The PRS are including in their present telephone campaign music played whilst on hold on the telephone, even if it is not music but digital tones , as long as it is based on a tune then they say one requires a PRS Licence, we have now removed our music on hold and have a boring message instead.I have no obejction to people earning money but I get a little sick of it trying to be grabbed at every corner.
During one call this week the overbearing rude woman at the PRS said that she acknowledged that we licensed some of our premises and that some of our hotel premises may not have bars , but she said that in those premsies we have rooms with TV's and even though they have TV licences that licence covers broadcast programmes but does not cover the theme tunes on programmes or the music played in them. When I asked about how they intended to implement this in peoples homes she said that a hotel room was classed as a public place , to which I informed her she was incorrect in both EU law and UK law , and that according to the government it was definitely not a public place as that is why smoking is still allowed in Hotel rooms as it is classed as someones temporary accommodation be it for one night or ten. At that point she told me I would be hearing from them and put the phone down. Ten minutes later she called again on another number not realising she had the same hotel....
But back on track , if the music played is in a private office then no PRS licence is needed, if it is deliberately played for all to hear then one is.
But if there is no chance of the PRS checking up on you don't waste your money, but if you have somewhere that is open to the public (shop, bar etc) it would be advisable to pay up.
If the labels no longer own current music, the PRS can't collect on their behalf.
(OT, one of the models artists are working on to earn money is this: Music is free, released online. All money would be made via merchandising and live performances - if it proves viable, the music industry as we know it is utterly screwed.)
And having met many of them over the years ( the music industry execs that is , on a business basis ) what a shame that would be for us all
Who gave the PRS the right to issue licenses?
How do, the PRS, know who qualifies for a payment?
I don't know, but I would guess it has to do with the fact that CD's/DVD's etc have the words "any unauthorised public performance is strictly prohibited" (or words to that effect) written on their covers. But I suppose it is what constitutes a "public performance", that is the determining criteria.
With regard to the radio, who is doing the performing, the radio station, or the organisation that pipes it down their own personal PA system ? Individual CD's, I can understand, but the radio itself might pose an interesting legal conundrum.
Does anybody know of any organisation successfully prosecuted by the PRS for broadcasting a public radio transmission to their employees or whatever ?
What piece of legislation is all this covered by ?
From what i've read it sounds like PRS are using the same kind of threating techniques long used by Capita to collect the TVL.
Don't you just love this country
The PRS is a non-profit organisation representing the artists and publishers of the music.
Radio Stations have to pay the PRS in order to broadcast copyrighted music but organisations also have to have a licence to use the music contained in that broadcast as a 'public performance'. This means that if you pipe a radio station at work or allow employees to bring in radios so that the staff can hear music at work, you need to pay for a PRS licence
It's copyright law - specifically the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
I understand what your saying, but the income generated from the licence, whom do they pay and doe's one qualify, surely they can't pay every record producer?
Kwik Fit were carping about it in a radio news item a few weeks back. They banned piped music years ago but turn a blind eye to old personal radios on a shelf in the workshop. They were warned by the PRS but used the excuse that it was the workers actions not the company. Any basic legal advice would tell them employees and premises are deemed to be under their control, it sounded like they were dragging their heels rather than putting forward a genuine defence.
The PRS steadily notch up the pressure, countering the same old arguments, until the employer gets the message. Very few cases actually end up in court because copyright law, whatever personal views are held on its fairness, is the law.
I tried to find a BBC link and turned up this:
http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/1020-Copyright-%20Kwik-Fit.html
Very interesting. Of course, that is just one company among many thousands. At our place people tend to bring in radios when working overtime on a Saturday. Sometimes, people are within earshot, sometimes they're not. But eitherway, I'd imagine it would not be possible to enforce it, as the building is a private one, not accessible to outsiders.
Also, what about various individuals who play their radios in their back gardens, or CD's with the bedroom window open. Surely there has to be a practical limit of realism ?
The other place that springs readily to mind is "you tube". Not quite the same thing, but myriad numbers of music items uploaded to their website, freely available for anyone to play. Where do they stand, I wonder ?
The revenue is distributed to composers, though what formula they use these days I wouldn't know. Radio stations have to provide details of all music played, and although I think they have relaxed the reporting requirements for smaller stations a bit in recent years, the bigger ones still have to make full returns. For most small stations there are normally periods of a few days when PRS notify them that they might record the output and go through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure they're getting accurate returns.
Obviously they can't know what music has been played in a shop, so there is presumably some sort of random sampling to determine who gets what - or it might be based on some sort of average of what the broadcasters have reported. It can't be total guesswork, as I once heard Noddy Holder say that he always looks forward to the PRS cheque he gets some time each spring which covers the Christmas period when everyone is playing Slade's Merry Christmas Everybody!
I remember doing this when I worked for hospital radio now you mention it. I didn't equate it as it being for the same thing and didn't realise that you'd need a licence to play a radio in the workplace. Makes sense now though, I suppose.
The era of British pop music is now starting to fall out of copyright. Soon Cliff Richard's early hits will be copyright free followed in a couple of years by the early Beatles. Within ten years, there could be an audience for copyright free radio.
BBC Radio & Tv send back details of every piece of music over 3 seconds, whether it is on the radio or just used on a tv promo.
Commercial radio have sampling days. For smaller stations (Like The Wolf or Palm Fm) usually twice a year, bigger stations (like Capital or BRMB) could be more often or for several days in a row.
They send back the details of every piece of music played over 3 seconds for that period.Title/artist/length they aired/record number. For small stations with a limited number of staff these exercises are very time consuming & a complete pain to do.
The reality of course is that those artists that get a load of commercial airplay (James Blunt, Pink, Eurythmics etc) probably do ok out of it. The golden hour/top 10 @ 10 songs that only appear in these features (Black/Charlene/Men Without Hats etc) will get nothing unless they happen to be played on the sample day(s)
Not a very good system really
The fact that the radio station has already paid to play these songs to the public seems to pass PRS by. Still never let a fact like that stand in the way of collecting more cash from the public.
Kwik-Fit's defence was also a bit stupid - "we told our staff it was against the rules", but didn't make any effort to enforce those rules on the staff who were their responsibilty while they were at work.
Most large retailers get their music provided by satellite radio services like this, so those companies will be able to provide PRS with records of what was played and to how many shops.
That just leave the other places like smaller shops and bars etc who play the radio, CDs or the TV - I suppose it must be something like an average across all the other broadcasters or maybe they just work it out as percentages from the reported ones and apply that to everything.
It's not the law as such. The law is that you can only use copyrighted material within the conditions allowed by the copyright holder, so if the copyright holder says you can only use their work to play in public with an additional fee that is a legally enforcable rule.
Most other countries have similar copyright collection societies who I would imagine apply similar rules regarding public broadcast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copyright_collection_societies
I have politely informed them again that it was seen and decided by government during the implementation of the Smoking Ban that Hotel rooms are not classed as public places but as temporary accommodation. Therefore to my mind the watching of TV by a Hotel guest in their room is not a public performace , I agree it would be be different if it were in the bar etc but it is not.
The last woman I spoke to warned me that my call was being recorded , she did not know what to say when I asked if she would be paying me royalties for recording my voice.
They really are going overbaord in this current campign.
Personally i think you should report them to the police for harrasing you.
No business should really have to pay anyway.
If Radio 1 play Pink, or Local FM play Abba, those stations already paying PRS to play those songs to the public. It should make no difference as to whether 1 person listens to that song in their bedroom or 100 people in a factory. The radio station will pay PRS for the public performance of that song.
Law is an ass anyone!
Speech radio is fine. They are just after cash for listening to music
I have an office with 3 of us in it. We dont have a radio, but do have a TV. We only ever have Sky News or one of the Sky Sports Channels on and we have been told that because the channels have adverts, and those adverts have music we have to pay!!!!! I suggested that i would see them in court and we have heard no more ..... for now
No it didn`t, as it happens. This is a recent issue which concerns a place of work. I googled the subject and this thread came up. Don`t worry, I typed this reply extremely slowly because I surmised that you can`t read very fast !