If Thatcher hadn't increased VAT we wouldn't be under such an obligation, EU membership or not.
How is that true? If we were a free country we could set VAT at 1% if we choose. Because we live until Brussels we have to set it at 15% minimum. No ifs no buts.
EUSSR? :yawn: Love it or hate it, the EU is neither Soviet nor Socialist.
:yawn: Sorry you've been put under the spell of Brussels, the way things are going it is based on the soviet model and unless people wake up, we could have another war in Europe because of it.
Don't forget the State purchase taxes and any other local taxes they want to add which often brings to the equivalent of our taxes. But then they get considerably less out if their government than we do, they don't have universal health care or unemployment benefits, for example. What has always annoyed me about shopping in the US is having to add the tax on before you get to the till, so that you know how much you are spending.
The USA does have unemployment benefits--in fact even the lowest payments in say Mississippi are higher than the British jobseeker's allowance (though housing benefits in the USA are generally worse than in the UK). Unemployment compensation in the USA is funded through taxes on employers as part of the unemployment insurance program.
Wikipedia has a good chart of the tax rates and categories sales tax applies to in the USA:
I've never lived in a state where sales tax was applied to groceries but there are states out there that do tax them (it seems that other than Hawaii and Illinois most of the states that levy sales tax on groceries are more right-leaning states).
I think most Americans who live in states with sales tax just know to mentally include the amount in the price.
that seems like a very high number, and what exactly are food stamps?
Food stamps is a bit of an anachronistic term--it's officially the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) and is administered through a debit card system (they used to be paper coupons). There's also a federal program called WIC (it's a special supplemental nutrition program from infants, children and their mothers) which are vouchers or debit cards which pay for milk and cereal and peanut butter and some other specific food categories.
How is that true? If we were a free country we could set VAT at 1% if we choose. Because we live until Brussels we have to set it at 15% minimum. No ifs no buts.
The EU could not have forced us to raise VAT to 15% had we kept it at 8%. Thatcher chose to do this and later on the EU adopted the lowest standard rate as the minimum.
:yawn: Sorry you've been put under the spell of Brussels, the way things are going it is based on the soviet model and unless people wake up, we could have another war in Europe because of it.
I'm not under the spell of Brussels, but to refer to it as the EUSSR is just childish, as well as inaccurate.
How is that true? If we were a free country we could set VAT at 1% if we choose. Because we live until Brussels we have to set it at 15% minimum. No ifs no buts.
Aren't you playing fantasy politics here - just a tad? If there was a desire to set our VAT rate at a level less than 15%, why on Earth isn't it at 15% now? Might it be that it's not down to "the evil EU" that the minimum rate is 15% - it's at that level because our own Government agreed to it? You don't think that if a Government seriously desired to set a lower rate, they would be able to negotiate a lower minimum rate?
Aren't you playing fantasy politics here - just a tad? If there was a desire to set our VAT rate at a level less than 15%, why on Earth isn't it at 15% now? Might it be that it's not down to "the evil EU" that the minimum rate is 15% - it's at that level because our own Government agreed to it? You don't think that if a Government seriously desired to set a lower rate, they would be able to negotiate a lower minimum rate?
well I think even setting it to 15% is a fair value.
well I think even setting it to 15% is a fair value.
I don't think it's that unreasonable a minimum. Only three European countries have lower rates - Switzerland and two microstates, Liechtenstein and Andorra. (In addition, there's a VAT rate of 3% in Jersey.) In all likelihood, the only EU countries that would benefit significantly from abolition of the minimum rate are Cyprus and Luxembourg.
Here's how the VAT situation compares across Europe from January 2011:
Iceland - 25.5%
Denmark - 25%
Hungary Norway
Sweden
Romania - 24% Croatia - 23%
Finland
Greece
Poland
Portugal
Ireland - 21%
Belgium
Latvia
Lithuania Albania - 20% Armenia
Austria Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Estonia
Italy Moldova
Slovenia United Kingdom
France - 19.6%
Germany - 19%
Netherlands
Slovakia Azerbaijan - 18% Georgia Macedonia (FYROM)
Malta Russia Serbia Turkey
Spain Bosnia and Herzegovina - 17% Montenegro Ukraine
Cyprus - 15%
Luxembourg
(EU minimum) Liechtenstein - 7.6% Switzerland Andorra - 4.5%
You seem to be comparing only sales taxes. What's the overall amount of taxation like in each of the countries you're talking about?
That's a very simple question with a very complicated answer.
Here are pretty much all places where I give money to the government:
Sales tax rate is 6.6% in the county, 9.1% if the store is within city limits.. most internet purchases have no sales tax.
Property tax is 10% of assessed property value.
I spend roughly $90 a year for my car registration. I also pay $12 a year for the smog inspection.
With all the deductions (money spent on other taxes, donations, medical bills and insurance are subtracted from your taxable income and even change your tax bracket), I pay 15% federal income tax, and 4.2% state income tax.
There's also a 19 cent/gallon gas tax.
I believe that's every instance where I give the government money.
I don't think it's that unreasonable a minimum. Only three European countries have lower rates - Switzerland and two microstates, Liechtenstein and Andorra. (In addition, there's a VAT rate of 3% in Jersey.) In all likelihood, the only EU countries that would benefit significantly from abolition of the minimum rate are Cyprus and Luxembourg.
Here's how the VAT situation compares across Europe from January 2011:
Iceland - 25.5%
Denmark - 25%
Hungary Norway
Sweden
Romania - 24% Croatia - 23%
Finland
Greece
Poland
Portugal
Ireland - 21%
Belgium
Latvia
Lithuania Albania - 20% Armenia
Austria Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Estonia
Italy Moldova
Slovenia United Kingdom
France - 19.6%
Germany - 19%
Netherlands
Slovakia Azerbaijan - 18% Georgia Macedonia (FYROM)
Malta Russia Serbia Turkey
Spain Bosnia and Herzegovina - 17% Montenegro Ukraine
Cyprus - 15%
Luxembourg
(EU minimum) Liechtenstein - 7.6% Switzerland Andorra - 4.5%
You pay 20% of the total price - how does the actual 'added value' have any bearing?
VAT is not just a sales tax, so the name does not make too much sense unless you consider it's wider application. Try wikipedia for a full explanation. However in brief, when you buy at retail you get 100% added value, in that you did not have the item before you purchased it. Manufacturers and wholesalers are effectively taxed on the difference between their inward purchases and outward products. The difference being the value they added.
VAT is not just a sales tax, so the name does not make too much sense unless you consider it's wider application. Try wikipedia for a full explanation. However in brief, when you buy at retail you get 100% added value, in that you did not have the item before you purchased it. Manufacturers and wholesalers are effectively taxed on the difference between their inward purchases and outward products. The difference being the value they added.
So is there an argument that VAT can be taxed at a higher rate than sales tax as with VAT the overall cost of the product is reduced so the wholesale price of the product is less than if we were using a sales tax.
So is there an argument that VAT can be taxed at a higher rate than sales tax as with VAT the overall cost of the product is reduced so the wholesale price of the product is less than if we were using a sales tax.
No, because it isn't. Wholesalers trade in prices net of VAT and then submit returns based on inward and outward tax. To the consumer, 20% VAT is exactly the same as 20% sales tax.
No, because it isn't. Wholesalers trade in prices net of VAT and then submit returns based on inward and outward tax. To the consumer, 20% VAT is exactly the same as 20% sales tax.
yes but with VAT, the tax taken at each stage of the production line should be less than with sales tax which is a tax on a tax on a tax.
Therefore, the overall price of the product before VAT should be less than with sales tax?
The EU could not have forced us to raise VAT to 15% had we kept it at 8%. Thatcher chose to do this and later on the EU adopted the lowest standard rate as the minimum.
You've completely twisted my point. I never said the EU forced us to increase VAT to 15%. I also never said that I think we should lower it at the present time. My point was that if we in the future ever wanted to reduce it, we can't as the EU minimum is 15%.
I'm not under the spell of Brussels, but to refer to it as the EUSSR is just childish, as well as inaccurate.
No it isn't. It's becoming a simular structure to the old Soviet Union. No accountability to the people, overuling national parliaments, a president that is unelected who earns more than Barack Obama. How anyone could defend the EU beats me.
Aren't you playing fantasy politics here - just a tad? If there was a desire to set our VAT rate at a level less than 15%, why on Earth isn't it at 15% now? Might it be that it's not down to "the evil EU" that the minimum rate is 15% - it's at that level because our own Government agreed to it? You don't think that if a Government seriously desired to set a lower rate, they would be able to negotiate a lower minimum rate?
LOL! Did I say I think we should have a lower rate of VAT than 15% right now? My point is that if at sometime in the future we wanted to lower the rate to less than that we can't as our masters in Brussels would not let us. You're living in a dreamworld if you think that one day we could go and negotiate easily for a reduction. And if we are supposed to be a sovereign nation, why should we have to negotiate a reduction? We should be able to set it at whatever rate we want. Just goes to prove we are not sovereign.
Canada's heath care is not exactly free - We have insurance to pay for medical prescriptions.dental care etc...the insurance is about $30 for us (couple) and pays 80% of our costs towards these things.
the VAT equivalent is now 13% - it is made up of a federal tax and a provincial tax -
at one point certain things were only one of the taxes (8% or 5%) but they changed it up this year.
they gave all couples $1000 spread out in three payments over 18 months as a compensation and singles got $300.
We live in a rental apartment 5 min walk from the Canadian parliament and there appears to be no such thing as council tax.( i cant speak for home owners though)
yes but with VAT, the tax taken at each stage of the production line should be less than with sales tax which is a tax on a tax on a tax.
Therefore, the overall price of the product before VAT should be less than with sales tax?
No it doesn't work like that. The VAT doesn't build up because manufacturers and wholesalers can reclaim the VAT they pay. As the consumer all you are interested in is the tax you have to pay, which is 17.5% of the net price the retailer sells it for, just the same as if it was a sales tax.
You've completely twisted my point. I never said the EU forced us to increase VAT to 15%. I also never said that I think we should lower it at the present time. My point was that if we in the future ever wanted to reduce it, we can't as the EU minimum is 15%.
I don't think I did, not deliberately anyway. If Thatcher had not increased VAT from 8% to 15%, the EU could not have set 15% as the minimum rate. That rate had to be agreed by all member states, and if ours had still been 8% we would have pushed to have that as the minimum.
No it isn't. It's becoming a simular structure to the old Soviet Union. No accountability to the people, overuling national parliaments, a president that is unelected who earns more than Barack Obama. How anyone could defend the EU beats me.
No accountability? We elect Euro MPs to the parliament, and our elected cabinet ministers operate on our behalf in the council of ministers. Only the commissioners are appointed, by the national governments. The president of the council is not an executive president in the same sense that Barack Obama is. He's no more than a committee chairman. The real power is elsewhere.
However the structure is really nothing like the Soviet Union. If the EU had no power to overrule national governments in key areas the whole thing would be a pointless and impossible waste of time. National governments still rule their own countries with little EU interference. The EU serves to provide a common framework from which to operate.
Comments
EUSSR? :yawn: Love it or hate it, the EU is neither Soviet nor Socialist.
that seems like a very high number, and what exactly are food stamps?
Simular to what we call Milk Tokens, but for food.
How is that true? If we were a free country we could set VAT at 1% if we choose. Because we live until Brussels we have to set it at 15% minimum. No ifs no buts.
:yawn: Sorry you've been put under the spell of Brussels, the way things are going it is based on the soviet model and unless people wake up, we could have another war in Europe because of it.
Wikipedia has a good chart of the tax rates and categories sales tax applies to in the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States
I've never lived in a state where sales tax was applied to groceries but there are states out there that do tax them (it seems that other than Hawaii and Illinois most of the states that levy sales tax on groceries are more right-leaning states).
I think most Americans who live in states with sales tax just know to mentally include the amount in the price.
Food stamps is a bit of an anachronistic term--it's officially the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) and is administered through a debit card system (they used to be paper coupons). There's also a federal program called WIC (it's a special supplemental nutrition program from infants, children and their mothers) which are vouchers or debit cards which pay for milk and cereal and peanut butter and some other specific food categories.
I'm not under the spell of Brussels, but to refer to it as the EUSSR is just childish, as well as inaccurate.
Do you even know what a soviet is?
Aren't you playing fantasy politics here - just a tad? If there was a desire to set our VAT rate at a level less than 15%, why on Earth isn't it at 15% now? Might it be that it's not down to "the evil EU" that the minimum rate is 15% - it's at that level because our own Government agreed to it? You don't think that if a Government seriously desired to set a lower rate, they would be able to negotiate a lower minimum rate?
well I think even setting it to 15% is a fair value.
I don't think it's that unreasonable a minimum. Only three European countries have lower rates - Switzerland and two microstates, Liechtenstein and Andorra. (In addition, there's a VAT rate of 3% in Jersey.) In all likelihood, the only EU countries that would benefit significantly from abolition of the minimum rate are Cyprus and Luxembourg.
Here's how the VAT situation compares across Europe from January 2011:
Iceland - 25.5%
Denmark - 25%
Hungary
Norway
Sweden
Romania - 24%
Croatia - 23%
Finland
Greece
Poland
Portugal
Ireland - 21%
Belgium
Latvia
Lithuania
Albania - 20%
Armenia
Austria
Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Estonia
Italy
Moldova
Slovenia
United Kingdom
France - 19.6%
Germany - 19%
Netherlands
Slovakia
Azerbaijan - 18%
Georgia
Macedonia (FYROM)
Malta
Russia
Serbia
Turkey
Spain
Bosnia and Herzegovina - 17%
Montenegro
Ukraine
Cyprus - 15%
Luxembourg
(EU minimum)
Liechtenstein - 7.6%
Switzerland
Andorra - 4.5%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
That's a very simple question with a very complicated answer.
Here are pretty much all places where I give money to the government:
Sales tax rate is 6.6% in the county, 9.1% if the store is within city limits.. most internet purchases have no sales tax.
Property tax is 10% of assessed property value.
I spend roughly $90 a year for my car registration. I also pay $12 a year for the smog inspection.
With all the deductions (money spent on other taxes, donations, medical bills and insurance are subtracted from your taxable income and even change your tax bracket), I pay 15% federal income tax, and 4.2% state income tax.
There's also a 19 cent/gallon gas tax.
I believe that's every instance where I give the government money.
The United States ---- 7 %
US doesn't have VAT. it does have Sales Tax but that varies from State to State - and some States dont even have that.
Agreed. VAT is added at every stage, but companies are allowed to claim VAT back. It is only the end purchaser that actually pays it.
Value Added Tax is a term that has always amused me though. Since when has any tax ADDED value to anything?
How?
You pay 20% of the total price - how does the actual 'added value' have any bearing?
So is there an argument that VAT can be taxed at a higher rate than sales tax as with VAT the overall cost of the product is reduced so the wholesale price of the product is less than if we were using a sales tax.
yes but with VAT, the tax taken at each stage of the production line should be less than with sales tax which is a tax on a tax on a tax.
Therefore, the overall price of the product before VAT should be less than with sales tax?
You've completely twisted my point. I never said the EU forced us to increase VAT to 15%. I also never said that I think we should lower it at the present time. My point was that if we in the future ever wanted to reduce it, we can't as the EU minimum is 15%.
No it isn't. It's becoming a simular structure to the old Soviet Union. No accountability to the people, overuling national parliaments, a president that is unelected who earns more than Barack Obama. How anyone could defend the EU beats me.
Typical comeback of someone without an argument. To Patronise. :rolleyes:
LOL! Did I say I think we should have a lower rate of VAT than 15% right now? My point is that if at sometime in the future we wanted to lower the rate to less than that we can't as our masters in Brussels would not let us. You're living in a dreamworld if you think that one day we could go and negotiate easily for a reduction. And if we are supposed to be a sovereign nation, why should we have to negotiate a reduction? We should be able to set it at whatever rate we want. Just goes to prove we are not sovereign.
the VAT equivalent is now 13% - it is made up of a federal tax and a provincial tax -
at one point certain things were only one of the taxes (8% or 5%) but they changed it up this year.
they gave all couples $1000 spread out in three payments over 18 months as a compensation and singles got $300.
We live in a rental apartment 5 min walk from the Canadian parliament and there appears to be no such thing as council tax.( i cant speak for home owners though)
No accountability? We elect Euro MPs to the parliament, and our elected cabinet ministers operate on our behalf in the council of ministers. Only the commissioners are appointed, by the national governments. The president of the council is not an executive president in the same sense that Barack Obama is. He's no more than a committee chairman. The real power is elsewhere.
However the structure is really nothing like the Soviet Union. If the EU had no power to overrule national governments in key areas the whole thing would be a pointless and impossible waste of time. National governments still rule their own countries with little EU interference. The EU serves to provide a common framework from which to operate.
Only asking. Some people use the term very loosely and inaccurately.