Does anyone know what the highest rated programmes on TG4 are? I suspect a lot of people only watch for GAA, Breaking Bad, English language films or the country music programmes where the links are in Irish but the songs are in English.
Mostly GAA, as is to be expected, but rugby has also proven popular:
Again can people who speak Irish not also speak English? Why do you expect the majority to pay for a channel in a language that has little practical use?
I repeat, Irish is their FIRST language. And they pay the licence fee too (I'm not sure why you keep avoiding this rather important fact).
Actually I would imagine they are a little peeved that English language subtitles are forced on them but it might be the price they have to pay. And it makes the channel more accessible to a greater number of the population.
Irish is also constitutionally the country's first language and every Irish child learns it in school - I wish I'd had something like TG4 when I was being educated. So, I'm really not sure where you get your "lack of practical use" argument from ;-)
Returning to an earlier (but related) debate. BBC Four is funded by the licence fee. Why should people who pay the licence fee be denied the right to programming of their choice? Or is it only channels in other languages you object to?
I repeat, Irish is their FIRST language. And they pay the licence fee too (I'm not sure why you keep avoiding this rather important fact).
Actually I would imagine they are a little peeved that English language subtitles are forced on them but it might be the price they have to pay. And it makes the channel more accessible to a greater number of the population.
Irish is also constitutionally the country's first language and every Irish child learns it in school - I wish I'd had something like TG4 when I was being educated. So, I'm really not sure where you get your "lack of practical use" argument from ;-)
I haven't ignored that point at all, but as I said before all (or very nearly all) people who speak Irish also are fluent (native level) English speakers. By putting programs in English Irish speakers aren't really losing out.
The lack of practical use point is down again that you don't need Irish in practical life to get along as everyone speaks English, any resurgence is down to the government trying to artificially promote the language. Call me an extremist but personally I'd rather the money be spent on vital public services.
Returning to an earlier (but related) debate. BBC Four is funded by the licence fee. Why should people who pay the licence fee be denied the right to programming of their choice? Or is it only channels in other languages you object to?
I am happy to talk about this issue with you, but we will end up way off topic and probably the one millionth BBC/LF debate on DS Broadcasting
On a general note though I think PSB should be accessible as possible for viewers.
The lack of practical use point is down again that you don't need Irish in practical life to get along as everyone speaks English, any resurgence is down to the government trying to artificially promote the language. Call me an extremist but personally I'd rather the money be spent on vital public services.
You could say that about other countries too. In The Netherlands, English is compulsory at school and English (American) TV shows are shown without dubbing. Everyone speaks excellent English apart from a few old farmers in rural areas. Should they let Dutch die out?
I haven't ignored that point at all, but as I said before all (or very nearly all) people who speak Irish also are fluent (native level) English speakers. By putting programs in English Irish speakers aren't really losing out.
The lack of practical use point is down again that you don't need Irish in practical life to get along as everyone speaks English, any resurgence is down to the government trying to artificially promote the language. Call me an extremist but personally I'd rather the money be spent on vital public services.
I am happy to talk about this issue with you, but we will end up way off topic and probably the one millionth BBC/LF debate on DS Broadcasting
On a general note though I think PSB should be accessible as possible for viewers.
Whilst everyone may have the capability of speaking English there are many communities where Irish is the only language used.
It is not that they are making a choice to speak Irish instead of English - it is that Irish is their language of communication. Signposts and shop names are in Irish only (the rest of the country has bilingual signposts)
I am increasingly getting the impression that you know very little about Irish culture, identity and language use. Are you even based in Ireland?
The language is taught in schools in Ireland so that covers the "practical" aspects of having a channel that can help those studies.
It used to be a requirement for certain jobs to have fluency in Irish (although that is no longer the case it is certainly a help).
But, first and foremost, the channel is provided for licence fee payers for whom Irish is their language. A great big full stop,
Whilst everyone may have the capability of speaking English there are many communities where Irish is the only language used.
It is not that they are making a choice to speak Irish instead of English - it is that Irish is their language of communication. Signposts and shop names are in Irish only (the rest of the country has bilingual signposts)
I am increasingly getting the impression that you know very little about Irish culture, identity and language use. Are you even based in Ireland?
No I'm not Irish or based in Ireland but I have many Irish relatives, I have visited a few times and know about Irish culture etc. On a less important note with just a few hundred Euros I could be an Irish citizen.
Restating facts of the Irish language fails to combat any of the points in my previous post.
The language is taught in schools in Ireland so that covers the "practical" aspects of having a channel that can help those studies.
OK so its a very expensive study aid, that doesn't stop the fact the Irish language is being pushed heavily by the government rather then there being a natural take up of the language.
But, first and foremost, the channel is provided for licence fee payers for whom Irish is their language. A great big full stop,
As I have said before, that's not something that should be provided by a PSB as it reduces accessibility.
No I'm not Irish or based in Ireland but I have many Irish relatives, I have visited a few times and know about Irish culture etc. On a less important note with just a few hundred Euros I could be an Irish citizen.
Care to explain? Questioning someone's knowledge because they disagree with you on a point of public policy is a bit of a cop out.
I would've thought it was obvious...
You've been to Ireland a couple of times - that does not give you any idea whatsoever about how deeply ingrained Irish culture is and how important Irish identity is.
The attitude that because somebody has the capability to speak English so sure that'll be good enough for them is crass to say the least (and could only come from a person who has no understanding of Irish culture).
Next time you're here make a point to visit a Gaeltacht area.
Also the point made by another person about the Netherlands stands just as true in this case (and you could make similar claims for Scandanavia and the many Spanish-speaking communities in the USA) yet I'm sure you wouldn't dream of forcing English-only language TV on those people. Or would you? If not is it just Ireland and Irish-speaking people you have issues with?
Oh, btw, it is really rather ironic you making a point of saying the Irish government is forcing a language on its peoples given the arguments you're making here
No I'm not Irish or based in Ireland but I have many Irish relatives, I have visited a few times and know about Irish culture etc. On a less important note with just a few hundred Euros I could be an Irish citizen.
A couple of visits and you think you know all about Irish culture. How many times have you been to a Gaelteacht? I could get a UK passport too if I wanted to but it doesn't mean I am all knowing about the different UK cultures..
1. ]You say that, yet fail once again to explain why this is the case.
Why is it insulting?
2. Asserting something is very similar to saying something, and just because you can come out with worse insults doesn't mean its not name calling and failing to address the issue.
3. There is so much wrong with this section, but I will take the conversation way off topic. I would however like to know what is your definition of "mature discussion"?[/QUOTE]
1. Hello there Jack. Your original statement was "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV". What I found insulting was that with no provocation present in any of the postings which had been previously put on this thread, you came in and slagged off the whole concept of non English language television and its "subsidy" by the government and people of another country. None of the money comes from you, neither does the operation of Irish Television leave you out of pocket, yet you come on here and state your opinion that the Irish Government and people have no right to finance a television station which is in their own language and which promotes their culture (and in doing so does provide some well produced and entertaining television which you do not tend to see any more on British Television.)
This would be like me coming onto a BBC4 thread and stating that British people do not have the right to view programmes about British art, music or culture, as BBC4 can only survive by being financed by the licence fee. Myself, I would never dream of doing that, because that is bad manners and I do not have the right to do so.
Ridiculous can be covered by what I have just typed. Maybe I was a little hard on you when I said your posting was lacking in any logic, as you have posted a number of "opinions" to other posters, which proves that the logic you use is along the lines that you only speak one language (I may be wrong about that, but that is the impression you give). Akso your logic is, as far as I can tell, the same logic as the UKIP membership. (I am not saying that you are a Ukip member, but your thinking does suggest that you are sympathetic to their philosophies and that you do not value the language and culture of people who are not indigenous to the country in which they live.).
2. What is it that I am supposed to have asserted? My original reply was actually quite playful and I was trying in a gentle way to point out that your posting was trollish. You, in your clumsy manner in replying to me, have made it into a competition about who can say the dirtiest words. Okay, again I was a little hard on you. You have turned out not to be a troll, you are a bit more resilient than that. The problem is that you have not really developed your argument much further than "all telly should be commercially funded and that's that". WellI am sorry for you cos that is not that. The whole existence and funding of television is not as black and white or as simple as that. There is a lot of grey involved as well and if you cannot grasp what I am currently trying to explain to you, then I cannot waste any more time going into more detail with you.
3. Quite simple Jack, mature discussion is not stating things like "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV" and then taking false umbrage when other people treat that posting with the contempt it deserves.
Now, apologies for this but I will not be replying to any further postings from you. I will leave that to the others, who are doing a better job and are prepared to indulge your meanderings in a more patient way than I am.
Uile is mhaith. (The Irish Government slipped me 50p for writing that bit of Gaelic, by the way :-) )
Kevin Myers, a well-known journalist here (born in Leicester) famously criticised the station when launched, on the grounds of it being a white elephant, and indeed with concerns that such a pet project would prove unwatchable. But even he changed his mind, on the basis that it was providing better value for money than RTE! Meanwhile, An Bronntanas recorded ratings of 340,000, perfectly respectable for its Thursday night scheduling.
You've been to Ireland a couple of times - that does not give you any idea whatsoever about how deeply ingrained Irish culture is and how important Irish identity is.
The attitude that because somebody has the capability to speak English so sure that'll be good enough for them is crass to say the least (and could only come from a person who has no understanding of Irish culture).
My grandmother and other Irish relatives don't speak Irish yet are still culturally Irish.
I have never once questioned Irish culture or in fact the speaking of Irish, my only point of contention is about the funding of a PSB channel, you're making huge assertions.
Also the point made by another person about the Netherlands stands just as true in this case (and you could make similar claims for Scandanavia and the many Spanish-speaking communities in the USA) yet I'm sure you wouldn't dream of forcing English-only language TV on those people. Or would you? If not is it just Ireland and Irish-speaking people you have issues with?
The penetration of Irish in Ireland isn't really comparable to the Scandinavian and Netherlands where near 100% of the population speak in the native language. No and I don't know where you get this idea I want to force people to watch English TV, as I have said previously it comes down to funding, if TG4 was a commercial channel I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Oh, btw, it is really rather ironic you making a point of saying the Irish government is forcing a language on its peoples given the arguments you're making here
You've either misconstrued my argument or don't understand it, I never said anything forcing people to watch English only TV. I also never said the Irish government was forcing people to speak Irish, I said it was heavily pushing it.
A couple of visits and you think you know all about Irish culture. How many times have you been to a Gaelteacht? I could get a UK passport too if I wanted to but it doesn't mean I am all knowing about the different UK cultures..
None but it's irrelevant to the debate
I am sure he has issues with BBC Alba and S4C too. He only wants to force the English language on everyone.
Read my above post, you obviously haven't understood my argument.
1. Hello there Jack. Your original statement was "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV". What I found insulting was that with no provocation present in any of the postings which had been previously put on this thread, you came in and slagged off the whole concept of non English language television and its "subsidy" by the government and people of another country. None of the money comes from you, neither does the operation of Irish Television leave you out of pocket, yet you come on here and state your opinion that the Irish Government and people have no right to finance a television station which is in their own language and which promotes their culture (and in doing so does provide some well produced and entertaining television which you do not tend to see any more on British Television.)
Just because something doesn't directly effect me doesn't mean I'm banned from having an opinion on it.
I have never said the Irish people don't have the right to fund a Irish channel, of course they do. This doesn't mean that its not a bad idea to do so.
This would be like me coming onto a BBC4 thread and stating that British people do not have the right to view programmes about British art, music or culture, as BBC4 can only survive by being financed by the licence fee. Myself, I would never dream of doing that, because that is bad manners and I do not have the right to do so.
Again your misconstruing what I've said, I have never said that people should or shouldn't watch certain programs.
Its a discussion forum, and even in real life criticizing a public policy decision is rarely bad manners.
Ridiculous can be covered by what I have just typed. Maybe I was a little hard on you when I said your posting was lacking in any logic, as you have posted a number of "opinions" to other posters,
Its a forum, both sides of the debate have been expressing opinions.
which proves that the logic you use is along the lines that you only speak one language (I may be wrong about that, but that is the impression you give). Akso your logic is, as far as I can tell, the same logic as the UKIP membership. (I am not saying that you are a Ukip member, but your thinking does suggest that you are sympathetic to their philosophies and that you do not value the language and culture of people who are not indigenous to the country in which they live.).
You're right I only speak one language but wish I spoke more, do quite fancy learning either Chinese or Japanese.
In terms of my views on cultural diversity I mentioned my view on this in earlier post in this thread
The problem is that you have not really developed your argument much further than "all telly should be commercially funded and that's that". WellI am sorry for you cos that is not that. The whole existence and funding of television is not as black and white or as simple as that. There is a lot of grey involved as well and if you cannot grasp what I am currently trying to explain to you, then I cannot waste any more time going into more detail with you.
I haven't ever said on this thread that all TV should be commercially funded, my main point was in relation to the accessibly of PSB
A lot of your explanation is based on assertions you have on me which for the most part aren't actually true.
3. Quite simple Jack, mature discussion is not stating things like "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV" and then taking false umbrage when other people treat that posting with the contempt it deserves.
I'm not taking umbrage with the disagreement, more the tone (although to your credit you've changed slightly) whereby anyone who disagrees with a certain type of PSB must be a troll.
if TG4 was a commercial channel I wouldn't have a problem with it.
You don't come from Ireland nor contribute to the funding of TG4 in any way so I really, really cannot see why you presently do have a problem with it - It baffles me to be honest.
In contrast - and I'm tired of reiterating this most important of points - people in Gaeltacht areas (and those in other areas of Ireland for whom Irish is their second language or who are learning the language) DO contribute to the funding of the channel.
Whilst I am pretty sure there are people in Ireland who share your views I personally have never heard anyone express them (even those who might be actually opposed to any promotion of the language). In fact there is generally a lot of positivity towards TG4 and most people tend to feel it is a cultural necessity, even if they never tune in.
Finally, surely the whole point of PSBs is to run programming that might not be commercially viable - in this respect I feel you're arguing against yourself.
It is only irrelevant as it shows you are a spoofer. It is safe to say that you know nothing about Irish culture. It would be appreciated if you kept your small minded nonsense away from things that have nothing to do with you and have absolutely no effect on your life
You don't come from Ireland nor contribute to the funding of TG4 in any way so I really, really cannot see why you presently do have a problem with it - It baffles me to be honest.
Its discussion forum, surely people are allowed to express their opinion on something even if it doesn't affect them?
Apologies for lack of better examples but I have an opinion on the government of North Korea, racial oppression in Darfur and anti-gay laws in Uganda even though none of them affect me. (obviously i'm not claiming that TG4 is anywhere near those situations, I'm only showing people can have an opinion on things that don't affect them)
In contrast - and I'm tired of reiterating this most important of points - people in Gaeltacht areas (and those in other areas of Ireland for whom Irish is their second language or who are learning the language) DO contribute to the funding of the channel.
When have I said they don't, but they won't be losing out in real terms should the channel go (which I don't believe it will) as they can still enjoy English content. But I think on this point we'll have to agree to differ
Finally, surely the whole point of PSBs is to run programming that might not be commercially viable - in this respect I feel you're arguing against yourself.
But its also should be for the wider public benefit, producing the same program in English will mean that more people can enjoy it.
It is only irrelevant as it shows you are a spoofer. It is safe to say that you know nothing about Irish culture.
Read my posts on this page before commenting
It would be appreciated if you kept your small minded nonsense away from things that have nothing to do with you and have absolutely no effect on your life
Improving services is small minded? Again read my above post, you obviously haven't thought that last point through.
Also this is a discussion forum, people are allowed to say things that you disagree with.
I wouldn't be getting involved in the pro's and con's of the Irish Language. I will say at the start of TnaG as it was it was regarded as a waste of money by many in Ireland. Many were suggesting that 2 hours of Irish Language programmes every night on Network 2 would fulfill any need there was out there.
However, TG4 would be a huge loss if it were to be dropped at this stage, not only for those that speak Irish but also for those that have little or none. It really is a good station for the amount of funding that it gets. It's own programmes in Irish are interesting and entertaining, plus the sports coverage and clever US purchases actually make it very worthwhile.
I regularly hear people complain about RTE and TV3 but whenever TG4 is mentioned it's usually with some praise, and most people I talk to have little or no real Irish.
Its discussion forum, surely people are allowed to express their opinion on something even if it doesn't affect them?
.
if TG4 was a commercial channel I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Maybe you think English is my second language so I probably wouldn't understand but surely the logical reverse of that statement is that you do have a problem with TG4 (otherwise it had no logic). So my question again is why does it bother you so much when it really has nothing at all to do with you?
It has occurred to me that you probably haven't seen much, if any, of the channel.
You keep using the word accessibility and talking about your belief that it should be accessible to most of the population. As I and others have pointed out already, even if it was a full Gaelic language service it actually does serve a great deal of the population - including those with some or little Irish. The fact that you don't get that is one of the reasons I felt it became increasingly obvious that you have no understanding of the culture or what it is to be Irish. I hadn't noticed your "location" in the sidebar; that was based firmly on your posts.
Maybe you've also decided to ignore the oft-repeated fact in this thread that the channel runs many English language programmes (some of them not already shown in Ireland - Breaking Bad for example, which I don't believe ever even ran properly in the UK - and other shows which, if they've run at all has only ever run on pay TV). These programmes simply would not be shown otherwise.
There's also sport - Wimbledon and certain GAA games, and others. Again, they wouldn't be shown.
And then there's foreign language programming (subtitled in English btw) of the type you might see on BBC Four. You never did talk about BBC Four but I believe it's relevant to the discussion.
And, most importantly (again a fact already mentioned), its Irish language programming is all subtitled in English - apart from the Cúla4 pre-school programming strand and some live programming. Those subtitles make the programming accessible to 100% of the native population.
You're right though - we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I would say I am proud to come from a country with such a rich culture and heritage in a world that is becoming increasingly "Americanised" - and TV channels like TG4 make me proud. It would be such a shame if it was made to commercially justify its existence and have to bow out.
So, whether or not they even watch it the vast majority of Irish people are happy and proud that it exists. It is this aspect of "Irishness" that I intimated that you neither "get" or "understand" and, obviously, you never could or will.
Apart from your first post it has been good debating with you, take care mate
Had to jump in on this as most Irish contributers to this thread seem to be very pro TG4. Its possible that some may be part of pro Irish language groups or the station itself who are very vocal about defending the language and the station whenever its called into question.
To the average Irish person who doesn't live in the gaeltacht or attend a gaelscoil (Irish language school in which all subjects are taught through the medium of Irish) TG4 is irrelevant. They don't watch it. It is (as Kevin Myers predicted) a white elephant which has become even less relevant since satellite and cable has given access to many different tv viewing choices to the majority of households.
TG4 however has been good news for the independent tv production sector in Ireland as it provides state funded money to spend on their productions.
TG4 has a right to exist if it is self supporting or if it were to go down the subscription route whereby customers could pay a monthly or annual fee to access it. As things stand in a country that is technically bankrupt (were it not for bailouts for the EU/IMF) it is a luxury the taxpayer should not be bankrolling.
Had to jump in on this as most Irish contributers to this thread seem to be very pro TG4. Its possible that some may be part of pro Irish language groups or the station itself who are very vocal about defending the language and the station whenever its called into question.
To the average Irish person who doesn't live in the gaeltacht or attend a gaelscoil (Irish language school in which all subjects are taught through the medium of Irish) TG4 is irrelevant. They don't watch it. It is (as Kevin Myers predicted) a white elephant which has become even less relevant since satellite and cable has given access to many different tv viewing choices to the majority of households.
I certainly wouldn't be pro irish language, some of my most miserable childhood memories involve the language. But I do have to give credit were it's due. Many of the shows in Irish with Irish subtitles are of interest to me. Now I might be in a minority, but there is an effort to serve all sections of the community. Sport and US shows are of a high quality.
There are also English language shows which are aren't cool enough for RTE, but would have an audience, mostly the Country and Western Shows (foster and allen)
TG4 however has been good news for the independent tv production sector in Ireland as it provides state funded money to spend on their productions.
TG4 has a right to exist if it is self supporting or if it were to go down the subscription route whereby customers could pay a monthly or annual fee to access it. As things stand in a country that is technically bankrupt (were it not for bailouts for the EU/IMF) it is a luxury the taxpayer should not be bankrolling.
TG4 saved the day in the late 90's when it came to many independent companies. It has actually taken on the responsibility of TV3. The idea behind TV3 was that they would buy in all their programmes, Instead they commission little.
If you believe that TG4 shouldn't be bankrolled by the taxpayer, by that logic RTE should also be shut down (except for RTE Radio 1 which would make a profit if it had to) But fair enough point if you put RTE into the same basket.
Comments
Mostly GAA, as is to be expected, but rugby has also proven popular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TG4#Ratings
I repeat, Irish is their FIRST language. And they pay the licence fee too (I'm not sure why you keep avoiding this rather important fact).
Actually I would imagine they are a little peeved that English language subtitles are forced on them but it might be the price they have to pay. And it makes the channel more accessible to a greater number of the population.
Irish is also constitutionally the country's first language and every Irish child learns it in school - I wish I'd had something like TG4 when I was being educated. So, I'm really not sure where you get your "lack of practical use" argument from ;-)
Returning to an earlier (but related) debate. BBC Four is funded by the licence fee. Why should people who pay the licence fee be denied the right to programming of their choice? Or is it only channels in other languages you object to?
I haven't ignored that point at all, but as I said before all (or very nearly all) people who speak Irish also are fluent (native level) English speakers. By putting programs in English Irish speakers aren't really losing out.
The lack of practical use point is down again that you don't need Irish in practical life to get along as everyone speaks English, any resurgence is down to the government trying to artificially promote the language. Call me an extremist but personally I'd rather the money be spent on vital public services.
I am happy to talk about this issue with you, but we will end up way off topic and probably the one millionth BBC/LF debate on DS Broadcasting
On a general note though I think PSB should be accessible as possible for viewers.
You could say that about other countries too. In The Netherlands, English is compulsory at school and English (American) TV shows are shown without dubbing. Everyone speaks excellent English apart from a few old farmers in rural areas. Should they let Dutch die out?
Whilst everyone may have the capability of speaking English there are many communities where Irish is the only language used.
It is not that they are making a choice to speak Irish instead of English - it is that Irish is their language of communication. Signposts and shop names are in Irish only (the rest of the country has bilingual signposts)
I am increasingly getting the impression that you know very little about Irish culture, identity and language use. Are you even based in Ireland?
The language is taught in schools in Ireland so that covers the "practical" aspects of having a channel that can help those studies.
It used to be a requirement for certain jobs to have fluency in Irish (although that is no longer the case it is certainly a help).
But, first and foremost, the channel is provided for licence fee payers for whom Irish is their language. A great big full stop,
No I'm not Irish or based in Ireland but I have many Irish relatives, I have visited a few times and know about Irish culture etc. On a less important note with just a few hundred Euros I could be an Irish citizen.
Restating facts of the Irish language fails to combat any of the points in my previous post.
OK so its a very expensive study aid, that doesn't stop the fact the Irish language is being pushed heavily by the government rather then there being a natural take up of the language.
As I have said before, that's not something that should be provided by a PSB as it reduces accessibility.
Read my above post.
Even if I had "nothing" to do with a country doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on something.
With all due respect, no you don't.
Care to explain? Questioning someone's knowledge because they disagree with you on a point of public policy is a bit of a cop out.
I would've thought it was obvious...
You've been to Ireland a couple of times - that does not give you any idea whatsoever about how deeply ingrained Irish culture is and how important Irish identity is.
The attitude that because somebody has the capability to speak English so sure that'll be good enough for them is crass to say the least (and could only come from a person who has no understanding of Irish culture).
Next time you're here make a point to visit a Gaeltacht area.
Also the point made by another person about the Netherlands stands just as true in this case (and you could make similar claims for Scandanavia and the many Spanish-speaking communities in the USA) yet I'm sure you wouldn't dream of forcing English-only language TV on those people. Or would you? If not is it just Ireland and Irish-speaking people you have issues with?
Oh, btw, it is really rather ironic you making a point of saying the Irish government is forcing a language on its peoples given the arguments you're making here
A couple of visits and you think you know all about Irish culture. How many times have you been to a Gaelteacht? I could get a UK passport too if I wanted to but it doesn't mean I am all knowing about the different UK cultures..
I am sure he has issues with BBC Alba and S4C too. He only wants to force the English language on everyone.
1. ]You say that, yet fail once again to explain why this is the case.
Why is it insulting?
2. Asserting something is very similar to saying something, and just because you can come out with worse insults doesn't mean its not name calling and failing to address the issue.
3. There is so much wrong with this section, but I will take the conversation way off topic. I would however like to know what is your definition of "mature discussion"?[/QUOTE]
1. Hello there Jack. Your original statement was "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV". What I found insulting was that with no provocation present in any of the postings which had been previously put on this thread, you came in and slagged off the whole concept of non English language television and its "subsidy" by the government and people of another country. None of the money comes from you, neither does the operation of Irish Television leave you out of pocket, yet you come on here and state your opinion that the Irish Government and people have no right to finance a television station which is in their own language and which promotes their culture (and in doing so does provide some well produced and entertaining television which you do not tend to see any more on British Television.)
This would be like me coming onto a BBC4 thread and stating that British people do not have the right to view programmes about British art, music or culture, as BBC4 can only survive by being financed by the licence fee. Myself, I would never dream of doing that, because that is bad manners and I do not have the right to do so.
Ridiculous can be covered by what I have just typed. Maybe I was a little hard on you when I said your posting was lacking in any logic, as you have posted a number of "opinions" to other posters, which proves that the logic you use is along the lines that you only speak one language (I may be wrong about that, but that is the impression you give). Akso your logic is, as far as I can tell, the same logic as the UKIP membership. (I am not saying that you are a Ukip member, but your thinking does suggest that you are sympathetic to their philosophies and that you do not value the language and culture of people who are not indigenous to the country in which they live.).
2. What is it that I am supposed to have asserted? My original reply was actually quite playful and I was trying in a gentle way to point out that your posting was trollish. You, in your clumsy manner in replying to me, have made it into a competition about who can say the dirtiest words. Okay, again I was a little hard on you. You have turned out not to be a troll, you are a bit more resilient than that. The problem is that you have not really developed your argument much further than "all telly should be commercially funded and that's that". WellI am sorry for you cos that is not that. The whole existence and funding of television is not as black and white or as simple as that. There is a lot of grey involved as well and if you cannot grasp what I am currently trying to explain to you, then I cannot waste any more time going into more detail with you.
3. Quite simple Jack, mature discussion is not stating things like "TG4 Another example of governments wasting money on non English TV" and then taking false umbrage when other people treat that posting with the contempt it deserves.
Now, apologies for this but I will not be replying to any further postings from you. I will leave that to the others, who are doing a better job and are prepared to indulge your meanderings in a more patient way than I am.
Uile is mhaith. (The Irish Government slipped me 50p for writing that bit of Gaelic, by the way :-) )
My grandmother and other Irish relatives don't speak Irish yet are still culturally Irish.
I have never once questioned Irish culture or in fact the speaking of Irish, my only point of contention is about the funding of a PSB channel, you're making huge assertions.
The penetration of Irish in Ireland isn't really comparable to the Scandinavian and Netherlands where near 100% of the population speak in the native language. No and I don't know where you get this idea I want to force people to watch English TV, as I have said previously it comes down to funding, if TG4 was a commercial channel I wouldn't have a problem with it.
You've either misconstrued my argument or don't understand it, I never said anything forcing people to watch English only TV. I also never said the Irish government was forcing people to speak Irish, I said it was heavily pushing it.
None but it's irrelevant to the debate
Read my above post, you obviously haven't understood my argument.
Just because something doesn't directly effect me doesn't mean I'm banned from having an opinion on it.
I have never said the Irish people don't have the right to fund a Irish channel, of course they do. This doesn't mean that its not a bad idea to do so.
Again your misconstruing what I've said, I have never said that people should or shouldn't watch certain programs.
Its a discussion forum, and even in real life criticizing a public policy decision is rarely bad manners.
Its a forum, both sides of the debate have been expressing opinions.
You're right I only speak one language but wish I spoke more, do quite fancy learning either Chinese or Japanese.
In terms of my views on cultural diversity I mentioned my view on this in earlier post in this thread
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=75848614&postcount=48
I haven't ever said on this thread that all TV should be commercially funded, my main point was in relation to the accessibly of PSB
A lot of your explanation is based on assertions you have on me which for the most part aren't actually true.
I'm not taking umbrage with the disagreement, more the tone (although to your credit you've changed slightly) whereby anyone who disagrees with a certain type of PSB must be a troll.
You don't come from Ireland nor contribute to the funding of TG4 in any way so I really, really cannot see why you presently do have a problem with it - It baffles me to be honest.
In contrast - and I'm tired of reiterating this most important of points - people in Gaeltacht areas (and those in other areas of Ireland for whom Irish is their second language or who are learning the language) DO contribute to the funding of the channel.
Whilst I am pretty sure there are people in Ireland who share your views I personally have never heard anyone express them (even those who might be actually opposed to any promotion of the language). In fact there is generally a lot of positivity towards TG4 and most people tend to feel it is a cultural necessity, even if they never tune in.
Finally, surely the whole point of PSBs is to run programming that might not be commercially viable - in this respect I feel you're arguing against yourself.
It is only irrelevant as it shows you are a spoofer. It is safe to say that you know nothing about Irish culture. It would be appreciated if you kept your small minded nonsense away from things that have nothing to do with you and have absolutely no effect on your life
Its discussion forum, surely people are allowed to express their opinion on something even if it doesn't affect them?
Apologies for lack of better examples but I have an opinion on the government of North Korea, racial oppression in Darfur and anti-gay laws in Uganda even though none of them affect me. (obviously i'm not claiming that TG4 is anywhere near those situations, I'm only showing people can have an opinion on things that don't affect them)
When have I said they don't, but they won't be losing out in real terms should the channel go (which I don't believe it will) as they can still enjoy English content. But I think on this point we'll have to agree to differ
But its also should be for the wider public benefit, producing the same program in English will mean that more people can enjoy it.
Read my posts on this page before commenting
Improving services is small minded? Again read my above post, you obviously haven't thought that last point through.
Also this is a discussion forum, people are allowed to say things that you disagree with.
However, TG4 would be a huge loss if it were to be dropped at this stage, not only for those that speak Irish but also for those that have little or none. It really is a good station for the amount of funding that it gets. It's own programmes in Irish are interesting and entertaining, plus the sports coverage and clever US purchases actually make it very worthwhile.
I regularly hear people complain about RTE and TV3 but whenever TG4 is mentioned it's usually with some praise, and most people I talk to have little or no real Irish.
Maybe you think English is my second language so I probably wouldn't understand but surely the logical reverse of that statement is that you do have a problem with TG4 (otherwise it had no logic). So my question again is why does it bother you so much when it really has nothing at all to do with you?
It has occurred to me that you probably haven't seen much, if any, of the channel.
You keep using the word accessibility and talking about your belief that it should be accessible to most of the population. As I and others have pointed out already, even if it was a full Gaelic language service it actually does serve a great deal of the population - including those with some or little Irish. The fact that you don't get that is one of the reasons I felt it became increasingly obvious that you have no understanding of the culture or what it is to be Irish. I hadn't noticed your "location" in the sidebar; that was based firmly on your posts.
Maybe you've also decided to ignore the oft-repeated fact in this thread that the channel runs many English language programmes (some of them not already shown in Ireland - Breaking Bad for example, which I don't believe ever even ran properly in the UK - and other shows which, if they've run at all has only ever run on pay TV). These programmes simply would not be shown otherwise.
There's also sport - Wimbledon and certain GAA games, and others. Again, they wouldn't be shown.
And then there's foreign language programming (subtitled in English btw) of the type you might see on BBC Four. You never did talk about BBC Four but I believe it's relevant to the discussion.
And, most importantly (again a fact already mentioned), its Irish language programming is all subtitled in English - apart from the Cúla4 pre-school programming strand and some live programming. Those subtitles make the programming accessible to 100% of the native population.
You're right though - we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I would say I am proud to come from a country with such a rich culture and heritage in a world that is becoming increasingly "Americanised" - and TV channels like TG4 make me proud. It would be such a shame if it was made to commercially justify its existence and have to bow out.
So, whether or not they even watch it the vast majority of Irish people are happy and proud that it exists. It is this aspect of "Irishness" that I intimated that you neither "get" or "understand" and, obviously, you never could or will.
Apart from your first post it has been good debating with you, take care mate
To the average Irish person who doesn't live in the gaeltacht or attend a gaelscoil (Irish language school in which all subjects are taught through the medium of Irish) TG4 is irrelevant. They don't watch it. It is (as Kevin Myers predicted) a white elephant which has become even less relevant since satellite and cable has given access to many different tv viewing choices to the majority of households.
TG4 however has been good news for the independent tv production sector in Ireland as it provides state funded money to spend on their productions.
TG4 has a right to exist if it is self supporting or if it were to go down the subscription route whereby customers could pay a monthly or annual fee to access it. As things stand in a country that is technically bankrupt (were it not for bailouts for the EU/IMF) it is a luxury the taxpayer should not be bankrolling.
I certainly wouldn't be pro irish language, some of my most miserable childhood memories involve the language. But I do have to give credit were it's due. Many of the shows in Irish with Irish subtitles are of interest to me. Now I might be in a minority, but there is an effort to serve all sections of the community. Sport and US shows are of a high quality.
There are also English language shows which are aren't cool enough for RTE, but would have an audience, mostly the Country and Western Shows (foster and allen)
TG4 saved the day in the late 90's when it came to many independent companies. It has actually taken on the responsibility of TV3. The idea behind TV3 was that they would buy in all their programmes, Instead they commission little.
If you believe that TG4 shouldn't be bankrolled by the taxpayer, by that logic RTE should also be shut down (except for RTE Radio 1 which would make a profit if it had to) But fair enough point if you put RTE into the same basket.