What's stopping Greece from declaring itself bankrupt right here, right now ? It would cancel all of outstanding debt. Then the Greek government can carrying on running a balance budget with tax revenues covering state expenses.
Substantially France and Germany whose banking sector would go into a nosedive......as evidenced by having yet another emergency meeting in Euroland....or perhaps Lalaland may be a better description.
Well unless some new position is reached, my reading is that out of the euro means out of the EU.
Why? There are countries in the EU but not in the euro such as the UK. There are also countries that use the euro but are not part of the Eurozone ie can't print money. Greece could do either.
The only unreasonable position is to want to remain part of the Eurozone but refuse to follow it’s budgetary rules as that will drag the rest of the Eurozone economies down and make it far harder for them to budget and finance their debts whcih makes them even more unlikely (politically and makes it harder for them to lend Greece a hand). Unfortunately that seems to be what the Greek people have voted for, ignoring the fact that in any negotiations the other party has a right to agree or disagree to the terms and walk away so it is a good idea to be reasonable.
Why? There are countries in the EU but not in the euro such as the UK. There are also countries that use the euro but are not part of the Eurozone ie can't print money. Greece could do either.
The only unreasonable position is to want to remain part of the Eurozone but refuse to follow it’s budgetary rules as that will drag the rest of the Eurozone economies down and make it far harder for them to budget and finance their debts whcih makes them even more unlikely (politically and makes it harder for them to lend Greece a hand). Unfortunately that seems to be what the Greek people have voted for, ignoring the fact that in any negotiations the other party has a right to agree or disagree to the terms and walk away so it is a good idea to be reasonable.
You can't blame Greece when both France and Germany did it first.
Why? There are countries in the EU but not in the euro such as the UK.
The UK and other countries not in the euro never got into it in the first place. Greece, along with other Eurozone members, voluntarily joined up and as far as I'm aware, joining the Eurozone was conditional on EU membership.
There are also countries that use the euro but are not part of the Eurozone ie can't print money. Greece could do either.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Eurozone members cannot, under the terms of membership, print money though that may not be the position with the ECB. Using the euro is an option for countries not members of the Eurozone.
The only unreasonable position is to want to remain part of the Eurozone but refuse to follow it’s budgetary rules as that will drag the rest of the Eurozone economies down and make it far harder for them to budget and finance their debts whcih makes them even more unlikely (politically and makes it harder for them to lend Greece a hand). Unfortunately that seems to be what the Greek people have voted for, ignoring the fact that in any negotiations the other party has a right to agree or disagree to the terms and walk away so it is a good idea to be reasonable.
It would seem that a large chunk of Grecians think the Eurozone is being unreasonable. They must be as fed up as the rest of us with the Eurozone being unable to run its affairs, though probably for different reasons.
What people tend to forget is that Greece was at one time refused entry to the Eurozone but got in some 2 years later by putting what the Eurozone termed austerity measures in place. The reality is it was known by the Eurozone that the measures weren't going to work and were just a fudge to gain membership, so desperate were, and still are, some of the EU leaders to continue with the European dream or what some might call the European nightmare.
So here we are, more than ten years later, with Greece still unable to comply with what mainly Merkel an Sarkozy have demanded, not because they want Greece to succeed but because both their countries are in so much deep shyte having been buying Greek bonds in order to conceal the plight, not just of Greece but of the whole of the German and French banking system, not to mention the euro and the EU. Perhaps the statement of the Greek prime minister on joining the EMU, serves to show just how inneffective politicians are;
"We all know that our inclusion in EMU (European Monetary Union) ensures for us greater stability and opens up new horizons."
You can't blame Greece when both France and Germany did it first.
It's not a matter of blame it's about dealing with things and moving whcih some countries seem to be trying to do whilst others are trying to avoid the consequences of their own actions.
"We all know that our inclusion in EMU (European Monetary Union) ensures for us greater stability and opens up new horizons."
Ya couldn't make it up.
It's probably true. Greece woudn't have been able to spend as much to improve it's services and infrastructure if not in the Eurozone. Also Greece wasn't in the Euro it would have been forced into default a lot earlier. Maybe it is also true that it wouldn't have been extended as much debt as some people assumed (rightly) that the wealthier eurorzone countries would rescue it. However, in reality we will provide a minimum welfare net if they default so they are still ensured greater stability than if they were originally outside.
I can understand most Greek voters not wanting austerity, but they have to realise they cannot avoid austerity just by voting against it. The choice is to accept the further bailouts with the conditions (maybe with minor changes) or go bankrupt and leave the euro. This will also lead to austerity and an even worse crash in the short term, but it might make recovery more possible after a few years.
I can understand most Greek voters not wanting austerity, but they have to realise they cannot avoid austerity just by voting against it. The choice is to accept the further bailouts with the conditions (maybe with minor changes) or go bankrupt and leave the euro. This will also lead to austerity and an even worse crash in the short term, but it might make recovery more possible after a few years.
It will be interesting to see when rumours spread around Greece that the government will shortly announce the adoption of a new currency. Expect anyone and everyone to move whatever money they can out of Greece and to somewhere else.
I can understand most Greek voters not wanting austerity, but they have to realise they cannot avoid austerity just by voting against it. The choice is to accept the further bailouts with the conditions (maybe with minor changes) or go bankrupt and leave the euro. This will also lead to austerity and an even worse crash in the short term, but it might make recovery more possible after a few years.
The choice is to make sure those responsible for landing the country where it is, never get into power again. However you attempt to apportion blame, at the end of the day the people charged with efficiently running any country are politicians, they're the ones to blame for what's happened and happening in Europe and in the wider world.
It will be interesting to see when rumours spread around Greece that the government will shortly announce the adoption of a new currency. Expect anyone and everyone to move whatever money they can out of Greece and to somewhere else.
The guardian are reporting there is a grey market trade in drachmas, how could there be a grey market trade in something that doesn't yet exist?
There are markets for practically everything.
Think of betting: you bet on on outcome - something which doesn't physically exist.
The futures market is like that. You agree to buy something in the future at an agreed price now. Even if it doesn't actually exist now. And of course, you can sell this futures option onto someone else even before the thing is even ready to be physically bought.
The guardian are reporting there is a grey market trade in drachmas, how could there be a grey market trade in something that doesn't yet exist?
It's been more widely reported than in The Guardian and forecast by many that it will be adopted within the next few months; the figure I've seen is 1500 drachmas to the euro. That'll cause a run on toilet rolls in Athens and Brussells.
Meanwhile, the good money suggests Greece will have to go to the polls again in June, roughly the same time Greece will run out of moolah.
We could compare Greece to the Titanic, except Greece has been offered the lifeboats but the Greeks don't want to get on board.
Yes, she will sink captain, it's a mathematical certainty, and the lifeboats left some time ago with the handful of filthy rich greeks when there was room available for many more.
State control of banks is extreme? Didn't you notice that lack of state control of banks led to a pretty extreme situation?
Taxation of business is extreme? This is getting silly.
High taxation of business is considered by most measures of competitiveness to be uncompetitive. State control of banks tends to restrict innovation and leaves the ground wide open for the corruption involving state officials
A reduction of spending on arms would be seen as extreme by Germany, as so much of the high Greek arms spending is with German companies, and Merkel insisted that Greek spending cuts should NOT include this.
Turkey seeks to join the EU, and better relations with the west in general, so obviously they're not about to attack Greece..
Tensions have always existed and always will. Remember that Turkey is beginning to see itself as a regional power, although obviously has concerns about Syria on its doorstep to concentrate on. However if the Turkish economy goes belly up, Greece becomes a soft target. Look at Argentina and the Falklands.
It will be interesting to see when rumours spread around Greece that the government will shortly announce the adoption of a new currency. Expect anyone and everyone to move whatever money they can out of Greece and to somewhere else.
Except that won't be much use if you want to buy things in Greece.
The experiment in monetary union is an abject failure - it is about time that the Eurozone knuckled down and started negotiating for an orderly transition back to National Currencies.
Why is it though? Because the system does have proper fiscal and political Union. The ECB does not have the same power or resources as the US Federal Reserve. If it did, even now it would not be too late to save things.
Do you think the German/French led Eurozone was irresponsible in allowing countries to join who didn't fulfill the criteria for admission? Do you think they should accept much of the blame for this?
Thats an old one and has been addressed so many times. Goldman Sachs helped Greece cook the books for a stonking fee and the Eurozone did not undertake due dilligence to test the figures. Fault on both sides. Responsibility on both sides. This is why a freeze on the bailout memorandum and austerity seems the only fair course of action to allow Greece the time to address the issues that have been identified as contributing to this.
Has anyone seen the report on Sky News about the Greek Govt where being Advised to Leave the Euro two years ago and how they would change the Euro to the new Currency in a matterof moments
Has anyone seen the report on Sky News about the Greek Govt where being Advised to Leave the Euro two years ago and how they would change the Euro to the new Currency in a matterof moments
Would or could, Surely introductions of a new currency requires notes being printed, financial systems being set up , A transitional period which would be practically impossible if the drachma is varying in value so much.
Greece will never be able to pay back its debts and austerity won't change that, it should default and leave the €.
Which also puts at risk membership of the EU. This would affect tourism in a big way due to the lower limits for tobacco and alcholol that applies outside the EU as well as the other trade advantages that EU membership brings. The rules of the Eurozone were never designed for a country to leave so it is uncharted territory.
Comments
Well unless some new position is reached, my reading is that out of the euro means out of the EU.
Substantially France and Germany whose banking sector would go into a nosedive......as evidenced by having yet another emergency meeting in Euroland....or perhaps Lalaland may be a better description.
Why? There are countries in the EU but not in the euro such as the UK. There are also countries that use the euro but are not part of the Eurozone ie can't print money. Greece could do either.
The only unreasonable position is to want to remain part of the Eurozone but refuse to follow it’s budgetary rules as that will drag the rest of the Eurozone economies down and make it far harder for them to budget and finance their debts whcih makes them even more unlikely (politically and makes it harder for them to lend Greece a hand). Unfortunately that seems to be what the Greek people have voted for, ignoring the fact that in any negotiations the other party has a right to agree or disagree to the terms and walk away so it is a good idea to be reasonable.
You can't blame Greece when both France and Germany did it first.
It would seem that a large chunk of Grecians think the Eurozone is being unreasonable. They must be as fed up as the rest of us with the Eurozone being unable to run its affairs, though probably for different reasons.
What people tend to forget is that Greece was at one time refused entry to the Eurozone but got in some 2 years later by putting what the Eurozone termed austerity measures in place. The reality is it was known by the Eurozone that the measures weren't going to work and were just a fudge to gain membership, so desperate were, and still are, some of the EU leaders to continue with the European dream or what some might call the European nightmare.
So here we are, more than ten years later, with Greece still unable to comply with what mainly Merkel an Sarkozy have demanded, not because they want Greece to succeed but because both their countries are in so much deep shyte having been buying Greek bonds in order to conceal the plight, not just of Greece but of the whole of the German and French banking system, not to mention the euro and the EU. Perhaps the statement of the Greek prime minister on joining the EMU, serves to show just how inneffective politicians are;
"We all know that our inclusion in EMU (European Monetary Union) ensures for us greater stability and opens up new horizons."
Ya couldn't make it up.
It's not a matter of blame it's about dealing with things and moving whcih some countries seem to be trying to do whilst others are trying to avoid the consequences of their own actions.
It's probably true. Greece woudn't have been able to spend as much to improve it's services and infrastructure if not in the Eurozone. Also Greece wasn't in the Euro it would have been forced into default a lot earlier. Maybe it is also true that it wouldn't have been extended as much debt as some people assumed (rightly) that the wealthier eurorzone countries would rescue it. However, in reality we will provide a minimum welfare net if they default so they are still ensured greater stability than if they were originally outside.
It will be interesting to see when rumours spread around Greece that the government will shortly announce the adoption of a new currency. Expect anyone and everyone to move whatever money they can out of Greece and to somewhere else.
The choice is to make sure those responsible for landing the country where it is, never get into power again. However you attempt to apportion blame, at the end of the day the people charged with efficiently running any country are politicians, they're the ones to blame for what's happened and happening in Europe and in the wider world.
I think much of the big money has been moved.
There are markets for practically everything.
Think of betting: you bet on on outcome - something which doesn't physically exist.
The futures market is like that. You agree to buy something in the future at an agreed price now. Even if it doesn't actually exist now. And of course, you can sell this futures option onto someone else even before the thing is even ready to be physically bought.
Glorified betting.
It's been more widely reported than in The Guardian and forecast by many that it will be adopted within the next few months; the figure I've seen is 1500 drachmas to the euro. That'll cause a run on toilet rolls in Athens and Brussells.
Meanwhile, the good money suggests Greece will have to go to the polls again in June, roughly the same time Greece will run out of moolah.
Lucky Greeks!:)
Yes, she will sink captain, it's a mathematical certainty, and the lifeboats left some time ago with the handful of filthy rich greeks when there was room available for many more.
Russia? Yes they would lose money but gain influence. Russians are now holidaying in Greece.
Why is it though? Because the system does have proper fiscal and political Union. The ECB does not have the same power or resources as the US Federal Reserve. If it did, even now it would not be too late to save things.
Thats an old one and has been addressed so many times. Goldman Sachs helped Greece cook the books for a stonking fee and the Eurozone did not undertake due dilligence to test the figures. Fault on both sides. Responsibility on both sides. This is why a freeze on the bailout memorandum and austerity seems the only fair course of action to allow Greece the time to address the issues that have been identified as contributing to this.
Would or could, Surely introductions of a new currency requires notes being printed, financial systems being set up , A transitional period which would be practically impossible if the drachma is varying in value so much.
Which also puts at risk membership of the EU. This would affect tourism in a big way due to the lower limits for tobacco and alcholol that applies outside the EU as well as the other trade advantages that EU membership brings. The rules of the Eurozone were never designed for a country to leave so it is uncharted territory.