You know what, I think a (decent) parish church with a bit of history to it wouldn't be bad - say somewhere like Middleham, or Sheriff Hutton where his son is.
It's not that it is a cathedral (although it might be hard to think of a monarch who isn't buried somewhere important - and let's face it, Leicester in terms of history is not important). More that it is a beautiful place that is commensurate, historically.
I wouldn't visit it either. Purely down to where it is, not out of some sense of outrage. It would be depressing - in fact the municipal car park might be preferable as from what I can see, (having zero memory of this 'cathedral') it is a slightly less interesting structure than the car park was.:)
Middleham parish church would be entirely appropriate. I remember visiting the castle with my parents on a very wet and windy day. Sheriff Hutton I've never visited but, again, it would be historically significant and infinitely preferable to Leicester's parish church
I was talking to someone the other day who had been to Leicester twice and they said that they didn't even know that Leicester had a 'cathedral'. I think people who go, expecting something like the cathedrals at York or Exeter, will be sorely disappointed.
Not having anything against Leicester, I do still feel quite sad that King Richard III will not be reinterred into York Minster (after today's announcement by the Dean and Chapter of York Minster). He was after all the last king of the House of York; and the fact that he had specifically said that he wished to be buried there, seems to be a bit disrespectful imho.
Not having anything against Leicester, I do still feel quite sad that King Richard III will not be reinterred into York Minster (after today's announcement by the Dean and Chapter of York Minster). He was after all the last king of the House of York; and the fact that he had specifically said that he wished to be buried there, seems to be a bit disrespectful imho.
I agree with this (although its not top of my list of priorities I have to say, just an interesting aside.)
If its true that Richard himself wanted to be buried in York, and he was the last King of the house of York, it DOES seem a little disrespectful to just ignore all that for no good reason.
The fact that it was Leicester University or whatever that "found" him should have little to no bearing on where his final resting place is. The "permissions" granted should have reflected this in my opinion.
It seems a little disingenuos to treat him worse than you would a normal citizen. After all, if someone expresses a wish to be buried somewhere specific after they die, usually that wish will be carried out - they wouldnt be buried somewhere else entirely simply because they died there - they would be transported back and buried in the right place.
Friends of Leicester lets just leave this thread alone now.
The Population of Yorkshire is over 5 Million and their e-petition has raised over 14000 signatures, The Population of Leicestershire 650000, and their petition has raised 5500 signatures. I would pro-rata that and go on and on but really there's no point. Reason and debate were sidelined in this thread sometime ago, if they ever existed at all.
By sheer numbers Yorkshire are going to shout louder, they are going to get more signatures on their e petition. They may indeed eventually get their parlimenatry debate.
Yorkshire MP " Minister we strongly urge the remains of Richard III to be returned to York."
Minister "I thank the member for...... The terms of the exhumation notice allow for......"...Debate over.
I was in support of Richard III being buried in Westminster.
After reading this thread, I think Leicester is the best place
Just to point out that a lot of people who wanted him buried in York do so because that's what he wanted himself and not because they dislike Leicester.
Just to point out that a lot of people who wanted him buried in York do so because that's what he wanted himself and not because they dislike Leicester.
I dislike Leicester and York is my nearest city, but if it was somewhere equally spectacular, eg: Westminster Abbey, I'd still think York was more apt, as that was what he wanted and he was "one of us".
The other thing is just common decency, really. Why leave anyone in a place where their body was desecrated after they died? If they came from somewhere else, you'd take them home.
I dislike Leicester and York is my nearest city, but if it was somewhere equally spectacular, eg: Westminster Abbey, I'd still think York was more apt, as that was what he wanted and he was "one of us".
The other thing is just common decency, really. Why leave anyone in a place where their body was desecrated after they died? If they came from somewhere else, you'd take them home.
I don't blame the people of Leicester for that, though, as I would imagine the ordinary folk of Leicester kept well away from the battle, and who could blame them. Also, where he was buried at the time does show a bit more respect than what it would have done if he'd just been buried near the battlefield like a lot of men probably were. In the end, though, he wanted to be buried in York and so it does seem disrespectful to ignore that.
Perhaps we should compromise and plump for Lancaster instead. People would definitely hear him spinning then.
I agree with this (although its not top of my list of priorities I have to say, just an interesting aside.)
If its true that Richard himself wanted to be buried in York, and he was the last King of the house of York, it DOES seem a little disrespectful to just ignore all that for no good reason.
The fact that it was Leicester University or whatever that "found" him should have little to no bearing on where his final resting place is. The "permissions" granted should have reflected this in my opinion.
It seems a little disingenuos to treat him worse than you would a normal citizen. After all, if someone expresses a wish to be buried somewhere specific after they die, usually that wish will be carried out - they wouldnt be buried somewhere else entirely simply because they died there - they would be transported back and buried in the right place.
I agree totally. I have no passionate fervour, I am just interested and also a little sad that a person's wishes are to be ignored for no good reason. 500 years really is not such a long time.
I cannot remember to be sure but I rather think Diana said in her will (a lot of things and bequests were ignored in her will) that she wished to be buried in the Brington church near Althorp near her father. The church/Spencer family came up with a load of arguments citing security why she shouldn't be and she's on her own on an island, whether she would have liked that is a moot point.
She died in Paris but she wasn't of course buried in Paris, she was brought home to a proper ceremonial in the Abbey.
I agree totally. I have no passionate fervour, I am just interested and also a little sad that a person's wishes are to be ignored for no good reason. 500 years really is not such a long time.
I cannot remember to be sure but I rather think Diana said in her will (a lot of things and bequests were ignored in her will) that she wished to be buried in the Brington church near Althorp near her father. The church/Spencer family came up with a load of arguments citing security why she shouldn't be and she's on her own on an island, whether she would have liked that is a moot point.
She died in Paris but she wasn't of course buried in Paris, she was brought home to a proper ceremonial in the Abbey.
I sometimes think Diana might really have been interred near her father in the church. I'd like to think so, anyway.
Just to point out that a lot of people who wanted him buried in York do so because that's what he wanted himself and not because they dislike Leicester.
Definitely. But there's no need for certain people to come on here and post disgusting and ignorant remarks about Leicester and its residents.
Definitely. But there's no need for certain people to come on here and post disgusting and ignorant remarks about Leicester and its residents.
I'm sure that the people of Leicester are lovely. However some of the academics of Leicester could be said to have no respect for the dead. The man wanted to be buried in York. That sentence should be the only one that matters.
Middleham parish church would be entirely appropriate. I remember visiting the castle with my parents on a very wet and windy day. Sheriff Hutton I've never visited but, again, it would be historically significant and infinitely preferable to Leicester's parish church
I was talking to someone the other day who had been to Leicester twice and they said that they didn't even know that Leicester had a 'cathedral'. I think people who go, expecting something like the cathedrals at York or Exeter, will be sorely disappointed.
I have been there many times - more than I can count, over decades - and had no idea it had a 'cathedral', either.:D And I am the sort of person who is round historic buildings like a rat up a drain-pipe. Genuinely have no memory of it whatsoever but then if it looks like the pic linked to, it is the sort you'd walk right past and assume was a bad parish church, so over-restored that it's not worth a glance at.:D
OK, lets talk about the "elephant in the room" without the discussion being proclaimed "prejudiced. bigoted or racist" before it's even started.
I think you are correct, there is a feeling of unease about Richard 3 being buried in a city famous for being likely to be the first city with a non English ethnic majority.
But why does it follow that it's a bigoted opinion without merit, that a king of England, an England that no longer exists in Leicester, should be buried more in keeping with the realm they ruled?
Amongst the descendants of the people they ruled?
This discussion reminds me of the fuss about Pocahontas being buried in Gravesend.
There have been moves by native Americans that her body should be removed and brought back to the tribal(?) lands.
I'd like to see the same people calling people here "prejudiced, bigoted and racist" call the native Americans the same.
So much dishonesty going on.
It's no more honest talking about "the elephant in the room" and then making it clear that should anybody actually talk about "the elephant in the room" they will be insulted and branded if they do.
That's because the situations are in no way comparable. Pocahontas was a Native American who lived during a time when Native American lands were being invaded and conquered. She appears to have travelled willingly to England, however.
The British Asian people in Leicester are our countrymen now. They did not arrive here with guns forcibly taking over the country. The vast majority are here legally, were born in this country and feel an affinity and loyalty to it.
I've heard you speaking of the need for integration in the past, yet at every pportunity, you treat non-white people as foreigners who can never integrate because you refuse to treat them as British. I'm curious - do you view your own husband, a Moroccan Muslim immigrant, in the same way?
I signed this yesterday when signatures were at 4,000. Today it is 14,000. No comment - up to you.
The petition to have him buried in York, the place he wanted, seems to have gone up by a thousand just overnight. He's been dead 500 years but still has the power to stir imagination and emotions.
Friends of Leicester lets just leave this thread alone now.
The Population of Yorkshire is over 5 Million and their e-petition has raised over 14000 signatures, The Population of Leicestershire 650000, and their petition has raised 5500 signatures. I would pro-rata that and go on and on but really there's no point. Reason and debate were sidelined in this thread sometime ago, if they ever existed at all.
By sheer numbers Yorkshire are going to shout louder, they are going to get more signatures on their e petition. They may indeed eventually get their parlimenatry debate.
Yorkshire MP " Minister we strongly urge the remains of Richard III to be returned to York."
Minister "I thank the member for...... The terms of the exhumation notice allow for......"...Debate over.
Oh for god's sake. It's not Leicester vs. Yorkshire. It's Leicester vs. the rest of England. I know loads of people who have never been to Yorkshire who think RIII should be buried there. There are countless comments online from people in America and Australia who think he should be buried there. Don't be so parochial as to view this as just 'York wants our star attraction'.
Oh for god's sake. It's not Leicester vs. Yorkshire. It's Leicester vs. the rest of England. I know loads of people who have never been to Yorkshire who think RIII should be buried there. There are countless comments online from people in America and Australia who think he should be buried there. Don't be so parochial as to view this as just 'York wants our star attraction'.
Thank you for this thread. It's been endlessly entertaining.
I'll just say that if the case for his burial in York is so strong (which I think it is) then there is no need for the constant put downs of Leicester, which have been nothing short of infantile.
Thank you for this thread. It's been endlessly entertaining.
I'll just say that if the case for his burial in York is so strong (which I think it is) then there is no need for the constant put downs of Leicester, which have been nothing short of infantile.
I saw The Wedding Present play a show in Leicester a few years back (they're from God's Country... I mean Yorkshire too, right?). Anyway, I don't remember much of it- Leicester that is- but I might have to plan a day trip or something, as I'm starting to warm to the place.
Would some kind person point me to the written evidence by his own hand stating he wished to be buried in York? I've tried looking and I'm damned if I can find it.
Richard the third should be interred where he fell in battle. Yes he should be buried here in leicestershire. IF he had fell in yorkshire then he would have been buried there. Unless bosworth was in yorkshire during the 15th century then york has no right whatsoever to say where his final resting plsce should be. Leicester IS a fitting place for richards final resting place
I for one am so happy that Kapellmeister will not be coming to our city to spew out his vile verbal sewage.
I'm just off to the Guildhall to check the temporary R3 display.
Richard the third should be interred where he fell in battle. Yes he should be buried here in leicestershire. IF he had fell in yorkshire then he would have been buried there. Unless bosworth was in yorkshire during the 15th century then york has no right whatsoever to say where his final resting plsce should be. Leicester IS a fitting place for richards final resting place
It doesnt matter if its "fitting" or not. If you lived in Edinburgh and wanted to be buried in Edinburgh then you dropped dead of heart failure or something while you were in Brighton, would you consider Brighton to be a fitting resting place for you? Against your own wishes? Ok you could argue that you wouldnt care because you would be dead (something I've argued in this very thread about Richard - he won't actually care) but surely, surely, even dead your own requirements should count for something?
Nothing wrong with Leicester. But if it can be proven that Richard wanted to be buried in York thats where he should be buried. That is my opinion.
I for one am so happy that Kapellmeister will not be coming to our city to spew out his vile verbal sewage. I'm just off to the Guildhall to check the temporary R3 display.
You won't be alone. Or you might as apparently they've only had 90 people through the door this morning... Hardly a stampede.
It doesnt matter if its "fitting" or not. If you lived in Edinburgh and wanted to be buried in Edinburgh then you dropped dead of heart failure or something while you were in Brighton, would you consider Brighton to be a fitting resting place for you? Against your own wishes? Ok you could argue that you wouldnt care because you would be dead (something I've argued in this very thread about Richard - he won't actually care) but surely, surely, even dead your own requirements should count for something?
Nothing wrong with Leicester. But if it can be proven that Richard wanted to be buried in York thats where he should be buried. That is my opinion.
I'm not sure anything can be 'proven' from the 15th century. You just have to work on the balance of probability. Is it probable, with the evidence we have, that R3 wanted to be buried in York or Westminster? The answer is unquestionably yes. Similarly, it is highly probable that he would NOT have wanted to be buried in Leicester.
Comments
Middleham parish church would be entirely appropriate. I remember visiting the castle with my parents on a very wet and windy day. Sheriff Hutton I've never visited but, again, it would be historically significant and infinitely preferable to Leicester's parish church
I was talking to someone the other day who had been to Leicester twice and they said that they didn't even know that Leicester had a 'cathedral'. I think people who go, expecting something like the cathedrals at York or Exeter, will be sorely disappointed.
I agree with this (although its not top of my list of priorities I have to say, just an interesting aside.)
If its true that Richard himself wanted to be buried in York, and he was the last King of the house of York, it DOES seem a little disrespectful to just ignore all that for no good reason.
The fact that it was Leicester University or whatever that "found" him should have little to no bearing on where his final resting place is. The "permissions" granted should have reflected this in my opinion.
It seems a little disingenuos to treat him worse than you would a normal citizen. After all, if someone expresses a wish to be buried somewhere specific after they die, usually that wish will be carried out - they wouldnt be buried somewhere else entirely simply because they died there - they would be transported back and buried in the right place.
The Population of Yorkshire is over 5 Million and their e-petition has raised over 14000 signatures, The Population of Leicestershire 650000, and their petition has raised 5500 signatures. I would pro-rata that and go on and on but really there's no point. Reason and debate were sidelined in this thread sometime ago, if they ever existed at all.
By sheer numbers Yorkshire are going to shout louder, they are going to get more signatures on their e petition. They may indeed eventually get their parlimenatry debate.
Yorkshire MP " Minister we strongly urge the remains of Richard III to be returned to York."
Minister "I thank the member for...... The terms of the exhumation notice allow for......"...Debate over.
Just to point out that a lot of people who wanted him buried in York do so because that's what he wanted himself and not because they dislike Leicester.
Your name is Richard the Third too?
I dislike Leicester and York is my nearest city, but if it was somewhere equally spectacular, eg: Westminster Abbey, I'd still think York was more apt, as that was what he wanted and he was "one of us".
The other thing is just common decency, really. Why leave anyone in a place where their body was desecrated after they died? If they came from somewhere else, you'd take them home.
I don't blame the people of Leicester for that, though, as I would imagine the ordinary folk of Leicester kept well away from the battle, and who could blame them. Also, where he was buried at the time does show a bit more respect than what it would have done if he'd just been buried near the battlefield like a lot of men probably were. In the end, though, he wanted to be buried in York and so it does seem disrespectful to ignore that.
Perhaps we should compromise and plump for Lancaster instead.
I agree totally. I have no passionate fervour, I am just interested and also a little sad that a person's wishes are to be ignored for no good reason. 500 years really is not such a long time.
I cannot remember to be sure but I rather think Diana said in her will (a lot of things and bequests were ignored in her will) that she wished to be buried in the Brington church near Althorp near her father. The church/Spencer family came up with a load of arguments citing security why she shouldn't be and she's on her own on an island, whether she would have liked that is a moot point.
She died in Paris but she wasn't of course buried in Paris, she was brought home to a proper ceremonial in the Abbey.
I sometimes think Diana might really have been interred near her father in the church. I'd like to think so, anyway.
Definitely. But there's no need for certain people to come on here and post disgusting and ignorant remarks about Leicester and its residents.
I'm sure that the people of Leicester are lovely. However some of the academics of Leicester could be said to have no respect for the dead. The man wanted to be buried in York. That sentence should be the only one that matters.
I have been there many times - more than I can count, over decades - and had no idea it had a 'cathedral', either.:D And I am the sort of person who is round historic buildings like a rat up a drain-pipe. Genuinely have no memory of it whatsoever but then if it looks like the pic linked to, it is the sort you'd walk right past and assume was a bad parish church, so over-restored that it's not worth a glance at.:D
That's because the situations are in no way comparable. Pocahontas was a Native American who lived during a time when Native American lands were being invaded and conquered. She appears to have travelled willingly to England, however.
The British Asian people in Leicester are our countrymen now. They did not arrive here with guns forcibly taking over the country. The vast majority are here legally, were born in this country and feel an affinity and loyalty to it.
I've heard you speaking of the need for integration in the past, yet at every pportunity, you treat non-white people as foreigners who can never integrate because you refuse to treat them as British. I'm curious - do you view your own husband, a Moroccan Muslim immigrant, in the same way?
The petition to have him buried in York, the place he wanted, seems to have gone up by a thousand just overnight. He's been dead 500 years but still has the power to stir imagination and emotions.
Oh for god's sake. It's not Leicester vs. Yorkshire. It's Leicester vs. the rest of England. I know loads of people who have never been to Yorkshire who think RIII should be buried there. There are countless comments online from people in America and Australia who think he should be buried there. Don't be so parochial as to view this as just 'York wants our star attraction'.
Thank you for this thread. It's been endlessly entertaining.
I'll just say that if the case for his burial in York is so strong (which I think it is) then there is no need for the constant put downs of Leicester, which have been nothing short of infantile.
Hey, that's a bit unfair
To children.
I saw The Wedding Present play a show in Leicester a few years back (they're from God's Country... I mean Yorkshire too, right?). Anyway, I don't remember much of it- Leicester that is- but I might have to plan a day trip or something, as I'm starting to warm to the place.
I'm just off to the Guildhall to check the temporary R3 display.
It doesnt matter if its "fitting" or not. If you lived in Edinburgh and wanted to be buried in Edinburgh then you dropped dead of heart failure or something while you were in Brighton, would you consider Brighton to be a fitting resting place for you? Against your own wishes? Ok you could argue that you wouldnt care because you would be dead (something I've argued in this very thread about Richard - he won't actually care) but surely, surely, even dead your own requirements should count for something?
Nothing wrong with Leicester. But if it can be proven that Richard wanted to be buried in York thats where he should be buried. That is my opinion.
You won't be alone. Or you might as apparently they've only had 90 people through the door this morning... Hardly a stampede.
I'm not sure anything can be 'proven' from the 15th century. You just have to work on the balance of probability. Is it probable, with the evidence we have, that R3 wanted to be buried in York or Westminster? The answer is unquestionably yes. Similarly, it is highly probable that he would NOT have wanted to be buried in Leicester.