Above, you've said the past meaning is gone. My point was that it isn't.
Your view of the term is simply another layer; there's nothing wrong with that. Your understanding of the term troll is what I'd be willing to accept as someone who might potentially be the sadist/psychopath in the linked article.
I'm sorry could you re-explain this please.
Are you're saying there is nothing wrong with what I and and others consider the term to mean now? but also nothing wrong with what it meant then? in which case I agree.
But do they have a "better" grasp of the term. If the majority of people (including the police who prosecute people who "troll" abuse on twitter") think troll - does it not mean abuse? is it not a bit like when MAW said GAY used to just mean HAPPY. You can define it all you like by what it used to mean. That is gone.
I'm sorry we have not all been on the net since time immemorial but that does not mean we are wrong now. Sure maybe it meant others restrictive terms then. It does not now.
But the alternative use of the word "gay" hasn't gone anywhere.
And, instead, if I tell you I'm gay then you're left to wonder if I'm alluding to a convivial mood or homosexual tendencies.
Again, if people want to brand any kind of internet interaction that they don't like as "trolling" that's up to them but it seems like it'd be better to use more accurate terms whenever possible and leave the term "trolling" for it's intended use.
You yourself have told me a far few times you don't think my opinion is correct and the only correct term for a troll is the one i consider out of date.
Not the abuse version but the original version you encountered " back in the day". yes or no? The fact that terminology has moved on has passed you by it seems.
What I said was that my opinion is that the Wiki entry for trolling is wrong as it only ascribes the current usage of the word and fails to take into account any historical background to its origins and development.
I also said that the media incorrectly uses it as they ascribe any form of internet abuse as trolling when, frequently, it's cyber bulling, criminal abuse or threatening behaviour, all of which are prosecutable offences.
Are you're saying there is nothing wrong with what I and and others consider the term to mean now? but also nothing wrong with what it meant then? in which case I agree.
But we are not in "then". We are in now.
In my opinion, the word 'troll' is capable of numerous meanings.
I am not concerned about the particular dates of origin as I don't believe that serves any purpose. I do not agree that any "then" meanings have become obsolete, or have been repealed by the "now" version. I think all meanings can co-exist very happily.
What I said was that my opinion is that the Wiki entry for trolling is wrong as it only ascribes the current usage of the word and fails to take into account any historical background to its origins and development.
I also said that the media incorrectly uses it as they ascribe any form of internet abuse as trolling when, frequently, it's cyber bulling, criminal abuse or threatening behaviour, all of which are prosecutable offences.
In my opinion, the word 'troll' is capable of numerous meanings.
I am not concerned about the particular dates of origin as I don't believe that serves any purpose. I do not agree that any "then" meanings have become obsolete, or have been repealed by the "now" version. I think all meanings can co-exist very happily.
Ok.
Thank you both for explaining.
I think of the term troll as its current use. Abusive/nasty behaviour. I understand when the term was coined its meaning was different. I understand it has evolved. Much like the word "Gay".
I do think that most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse. Those who troll Dedication pages etc.
I understand Amy-Girl, Cadiva and even Sweh think the original term is the true meaning.
I do think that most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse. Those who troll Dedication pages etc.
I gotta say, that seems like a bit of a leap.
Personally, I reckon most internet users probably just associate the word "troll" with the jerks who insist on posting bolshie shite for no obvious reason.
That's just me, though.
Personally, I reckon most internet users probably just associate the word "troll" with the jerks who insist on posting bolshie shite for no obvious reason.
That's just me, though.
Can't help but think you're just splitting hairs. Whats the difference between a dick and a dick who posts on dedication pages?
Can't help but think you're just splitting hairs. Whats the difference between a dick and a dick who posts on dedication pages?
I meant that I doubt most people use the word "troll" to describe those who're arrested for abusive actions.
You, yourself, have referred to people as "trolls" on a couple of occasions on this very forum, once regarding a comment about tattoos and also in reference to Katie Price.
Your own use of the word would suggest that you don't actually reserve the term for people who're doing stuff worthy of arrest and that, instead, you use it to describe people who you think are being deliberately argumentative.... which is, of course, more what the term really describes.
I meant that I doubt most people use the word "troll" to describe those who're arrested for abusive actions.
You, yourself, have referred to people as "trolls" on a couple of occasions on this very forum, once regarding a comment about tattoos and also in reference to Katie Price.
Your own use of the word would suggest that you don't actually reserve the term for people who're doing stuff worthy of arrest and that, instead, you use it to describe people who you think are being deliberately argumentative.... which is, of course, more what the term really describes.
Don't put words in my mouth. I have never said it is only for people doing actions worthy of arrest. I have said what I think it is here many times. Don't take one aspect of that to score some kind of debating point. Either quote me and what I mean fully or don't pick and choose what fits your agenda?
I do think that most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse.
I have said what I think it is here many times. Don't take one aspect of that to score some kind of debating point. Either quote me and what I mean fully or don't?
I wasn't trying to score points.
You were claiming that "most internet users" now think of trolls as the people who get arrested for stuff.
I disagreed.
You know it's sometimes okay to just say "Okay, fair enough. That wasn't really what I meant", right?
You don't have to argue every criticism to death.
You put the words in your mouth (or, more precicely, on the page).
I wasn't trying to score points.
You were claiming that "most internet users" now think of trolls as the people who get arrested for stuff.
I disagreed.
You know it's sometimes okay to just say "Okay, fair enough. That wasn't really what I meant", right?
You don't have to argue every criticism to death.
It's ok for you to take what I have said out of context and run with it t score points if you need too. I'll let you. Carry on.
For the record what I have said is basically this:
That the terminology has moved on. That people think general abuse is now trolling. That people are arrested for "trolling" on twitter and various places including dedication pages. But if he feels the need to score points, let him.
Have a good night Si, doing what you do. It is boring. Genuine debate rather than pathetic point scoring is always much better. But I'm not sure you get that. night night GD
Have a good night Si, doing what you do. It is boring. Genuine debate rather than pathetic point scoring is always much better. But I'm not sure you get that. night night GD
Y'know, I was going to leave it until I noticed that you couldn't resist adding in a sneaky, bitchy, edit.
The simple fact is that you categorically said that you think "most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse" and yet you, yourself, have accused people of "trolling" simply because they said stuff about Katie Price and tattoos.
Surely you don't actually think that "most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse" or you wouldn't have used it, yourself, to describe somebody who made a contentious comment about a tattoo or Katie Price?
Or are you saying that you think most people have a different understanding of the word than you do yourself?
I think of the term troll as its current use. Abusive/nasty behaviour. I understand when the term was coined its meaning was different. I understand it has evolved. Much like the word "Gay".
I do think that most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse. Those who troll Dedication pages etc.
I understand Amy-Girl, Cadiva and even Sweh think the original term is the true meaning.
So what would you call someone like bloodninja (see earlier links)?
Not sure if anyone has asked this, but what do people think of how internet trolls are in real life? Can someone create a troll persona on the net but be an otherwise productive and decent person elsewhere? Is there an assumption that those who engage in trolling full-time are not quite playing with a full deck, or show signs of being a sociopath? One of the markers for it is 'lack of empathy', but we have to take into account that people on the internet are not always truthful and will sometimes lie to get attention, so maybe reserving empathy in some situations isn't a bad idea.
Not sure if anyone has asked this, but what do people think of how internet trolls are in real life? Can someone create a troll persona on the net but be an otherwise productive and decent person elsewhere? Is there an assumption that those who engage in trolling full-time are not quite playing with a full deck, or show signs of being a sociopath? One of the markers for it is 'lack of empathy', but we have to take into account that people on the internet are not always truthful and will sometimes lie to get attention, so maybe reserving empathy in some situations isn't a bad idea.
Interesting question.
Personally, I'd bet that the people who're trolls in the original sense of the word are the sort of people who also enjoy deliberately spilling people's coffee over books, dropping keys down the backs of desks, ensuring that messages don't get passed on and indulging in other similarly petty but spiteful shenanigans just cos they like the idea of doing stuff to irritate other people.
I don't think that being an arsehole is necessarily a binary choice but I'd bet that such people score pretty highly on the "arsehole scale" in most aspects of their life, even if others don't always notice it.
Personally, I'd bet that the people who're trolls in the original sense of the word are the sort of people who also enjoy deliberately spilling people's coffee over books, dropping keys down the backs of desks, ensuring that messages don't get passed on and indulging in other similarly petty but spiteful shenanigans just cos they like the idea of doing stuff to irritate other people.
I don't think that being an arsehole is necessarily a binary choice but I'd bet that such people score pretty highly on the "arsehole scale" in most aspects of their life, even if others don't always notice it.
There should be an 'arsehole scale' if there isn't one already.
I think a lot of internet trolls don't have a job and that is why a lot of them keep on posting during the night and early hours, because they don't have to get up in the morning to go to work. they will tell you that they do work though and can survive on 2 hours sleep per night but that's normally just rubbish they are spouting.
I think a lot of internet trolls don't have a job and that is why a lot of them post right through the night, because they don't have to get up in the morning to go to work.
The devil makes work for idle hands and all that.
It is interesting that a large percentage of those who have been arrested, charged and convicted of internet abuse on social media are young (teenage to early twenties) and either unemployed or complete saddos.
I have noticed that some of the posters on forums who call 'troll' or 'wind up merchant' at the drop of a hat, are the ones that I would class as trolls etc.
Maybe it is a case of 'takes one to know one'.
I have noticed that some of the posters on forums who call 'troll' or 'wind up merchant' at the drop of a hat, are the ones that I would class as trolls etc.
Maybe it is a case of 'takes one to know one'.
I have noticed that some of the posters on forums who call 'troll' or 'wind up merchant' at the drop of a hat, are the ones that I would class as trolls etc.
Maybe it is a case of 'takes one to know one'.
Yeah like the ones who have been a member for a week and they start calling everyone a troll and PBU.:D
Not sure if anyone has asked this, but what do people think of how internet trolls are in real life? Can someone create a troll persona on the net but be an otherwise productive and decent person elsewhere? Is there an assumption that those who engage in trolling full-time are not quite playing with a full deck, or show signs of being a sociopath? One of the markers for it is 'lack of empathy', but we have to take into account that people on the internet are not always truthful and will sometimes lie to get attention, so maybe reserving empathy in some situations isn't a bad idea.
Consulting tomes for correct terms doesn't interest me particularly but the motivation behind individuals who create fake personas or try to insult and cause chaos on the internet certainly does.
I'm not sure what possible satisfaction they get out of it as it would bore me senseless. The most abusive individuals must certainly possess a lack of empathy,they don't seem to understand that their actions have an effect on others. I know those concerned with definitions will prefer me to call those who disrupt the face book pages of people who have passed away as cyber bullies not trolls so I will do so.
What on Gods Earth do cyber bullies think they are trying to achieve mocking the Dead and insulting the family members of someone who has recently commited suicide or passed away? Surely these individuals must be disturbed,they have to be, it is too cruel and irrational an action to be dismissed as anything but 'disturbed behaviour.
I recall a programme when a person who had mocked the recently bereaved on Facebook pages was tracked down and asked to explain his abusive actions. He was overweight,unclean looking and ran away at any given opportunity. He was a complete coward and frankly a pathetic looking figure.
The only verbal response he gave as he sought refuge on a bus was that 'it didn't mean anything'. So if hurling abuse at the recently bereaved doesn't mean anything,why bother doing it??
I have noticed that some of the posters on forums who call 'troll' or 'wind up merchant' at the drop of a hat, are the ones that I would class as trolls etc.
Maybe it is a case of 'takes one to know one'.
On the other hand, trolls are also known to back up other trolls when it suits them, in a show of 'trollidarity'. I think Stoatie invented that word, IIRC. Or maybe, many trolls just have a lot of sock accounts:D
Comments
I'm sorry could you re-explain this please.
Are you're saying there is nothing wrong with what I and and others consider the term to mean now? but also nothing wrong with what it meant then? in which case I agree.
But we are not in "then". We are in now.
But the alternative use of the word "gay" hasn't gone anywhere.
And, instead, if I tell you I'm gay then you're left to wonder if I'm alluding to a convivial mood or homosexual tendencies.
Again, if people want to brand any kind of internet interaction that they don't like as "trolling" that's up to them but it seems like it'd be better to use more accurate terms whenever possible and leave the term "trolling" for it's intended use.
What I said was that my opinion is that the Wiki entry for trolling is wrong as it only ascribes the current usage of the word and fails to take into account any historical background to its origins and development.
I also said that the media incorrectly uses it as they ascribe any form of internet abuse as trolling when, frequently, it's cyber bulling, criminal abuse or threatening behaviour, all of which are prosecutable offences.
In my opinion, the word 'troll' is capable of numerous meanings.
I am not concerned about the particular dates of origin as I don't believe that serves any purpose. I do not agree that any "then" meanings have become obsolete, or have been repealed by the "now" version. I think all meanings can co-exist very happily.
Ok.
Thank you both for explaining.
I think of the term troll as its current use. Abusive/nasty behaviour. I understand when the term was coined its meaning was different. I understand it has evolved. Much like the word "Gay".
I do think that most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse. Those who troll Dedication pages etc.
I understand Amy-Girl, Cadiva and even Sweh think the original term is the true meaning.
Nah, sweh only cares that the "then meaning" trolls are being categorised as sadists because of the "now meaning" trolls which is ridiculous.
I gotta say, that seems like a bit of a leap.
Personally, I reckon most internet users probably just associate the word "troll" with the jerks who insist on posting bolshie shite for no obvious reason.
That's just me, though.
Ok i get that thank you
Can't help but think you're just splitting hairs. Whats the difference between a dick and a dick who posts on dedication pages?
I meant that I doubt most people use the word "troll" to describe those who're arrested for abusive actions.
You, yourself, have referred to people as "trolls" on a couple of occasions on this very forum, once regarding a comment about tattoos and also in reference to Katie Price.
Your own use of the word would suggest that you don't actually reserve the term for people who're doing stuff worthy of arrest and that, instead, you use it to describe people who you think are being deliberately argumentative.... which is, of course, more what the term really describes.
Don't put words in my mouth. I have never said it is only for people doing actions worthy of arrest. I have said what I think it is here many times. Don't take one aspect of that to score some kind of debating point. Either quote me and what I mean fully or don't pick and choose what fits your agenda?
You put the words in your mouth (or, more precicely, on the page).
I wasn't trying to score points.
You were claiming that "most internet users" now think of trolls as the people who get arrested for stuff.
I disagreed.
You know it's sometimes okay to just say "Okay, fair enough. That wasn't really what I meant", right?
You don't have to argue every criticism to death.
It's ok for you to take what I have said out of context and run with it t score points if you need too. I'll let you. Carry on.
For the record what I have said is basically this:
That the terminology has moved on. That people think general abuse is now trolling. That people are arrested for "trolling" on twitter and various places including dedication pages. But if he feels the need to score points, let him.
Have a good night Si, doing what you do. It is boring. Genuine debate rather than pathetic point scoring is always much better. But I'm not sure you get that. night night GD
No I don't think anyone said that.
But I do think when someone refers to a criminal as a troll, it shows ignorance and fear of the Internet, and in the media's case, hysteria.
Y'know, I was going to leave it until I noticed that you couldn't resist adding in a sneaky, bitchy, edit.
The simple fact is that you categorically said that you think "most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse" and yet you, yourself, have accused people of "trolling" simply because they said stuff about Katie Price and tattoos.
Surely you don't actually think that "most of the internet users now would think of the term troll as those who are arrested for abuse" or you wouldn't have used it, yourself, to describe somebody who made a contentious comment about a tattoo or Katie Price?
Or are you saying that you think most people have a different understanding of the word than you do yourself?
So what would you call someone like bloodninja (see earlier links)?
Interesting question.
Personally, I'd bet that the people who're trolls in the original sense of the word are the sort of people who also enjoy deliberately spilling people's coffee over books, dropping keys down the backs of desks, ensuring that messages don't get passed on and indulging in other similarly petty but spiteful shenanigans just cos they like the idea of doing stuff to irritate other people.
I don't think that being an arsehole is necessarily a binary choice but I'd bet that such people score pretty highly on the "arsehole scale" in most aspects of their life, even if others don't always notice it.
There should be an 'arsehole scale' if there isn't one already.
You might enjoy this:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-simple-steps-to-not-being-total-asshole/
The devil makes work for idle hands and all that.
They are easy to spot.
It is interesting that a large percentage of those who have been arrested, charged and convicted of internet abuse on social media are young (teenage to early twenties) and either unemployed or complete saddos.
Maybe it is a case of 'takes one to know one'.
Agreed :cool:
Yeah like the ones who have been a member for a week and they start calling everyone a troll and PBU.:D
Consulting tomes for correct terms doesn't interest me particularly but the motivation behind individuals who create fake personas or try to insult and cause chaos on the internet certainly does.
I'm not sure what possible satisfaction they get out of it as it would bore me senseless. The most abusive individuals must certainly possess a lack of empathy,they don't seem to understand that their actions have an effect on others. I know those concerned with definitions will prefer me to call those who disrupt the face book pages of people who have passed away as cyber bullies not trolls so I will do so.
What on Gods Earth do cyber bullies think they are trying to achieve mocking the Dead and insulting the family members of someone who has recently commited suicide or passed away? Surely these individuals must be disturbed,they have to be, it is too cruel and irrational an action to be dismissed as anything but 'disturbed behaviour.
I recall a programme when a person who had mocked the recently bereaved on Facebook pages was tracked down and asked to explain his abusive actions. He was overweight,unclean looking and ran away at any given opportunity. He was a complete coward and frankly a pathetic looking figure.
The only verbal response he gave as he sought refuge on a bus was that 'it didn't mean anything'. So if hurling abuse at the recently bereaved doesn't mean anything,why bother doing it??
On the other hand, trolls are also known to back up other trolls when it suits them, in a show of 'trollidarity'. I think Stoatie invented that word, IIRC. Or maybe, many trolls just have a lot of sock accounts:D