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Merlin Series 4 - General Discussion Thread

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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    I tried looking for the crucifix picture but I can't find the one I saw in the episodes, but it was there and I noticed that in Gaius' chambers he has a poster of a bunch of crosses in a circle and in another, surprisingly, there's a lute--- it seems Merlin and Gaius are musicians. I'll keep a look out for the crucifix.

    Besides, the Chi-Rho "X-P", "X-p", or "X-t" is a very Christian
    symbol dating to the 14th Century and used as an abbreviation for christ or "cristos." That's part of the reason that the X was used in X-mas as a according to some scholars.

    I found those spoilers while looking up some items on behavioral motivation and psychology and one of those led me to Merlin. It seems that eoincmacken on twitter was a psych major and through a bunch of twists and turns I found this:
    a bruised Gwaine? Sometime during/after filming in some Caves? http://twitter.com/#!/eoincmacken/status/181809126970638336/photo/1
    and that led me to the other sites.

    If you live near someplace called Forest Dean, the BBC's filming at
    "Clearwell Caves"
    you might find some arrows with an "M". And, it seems to be what eoincmaken twitted If you don't want to do what I did and go through the roundabout, you can use this site: They've got quite a bit on the show and even had the filming dates for Pierrefrond before anyone else that I saw
    It's about the filming dates at Pierrefonds. I don't speak the language but you can use babelfish to translate it: I think some actor on the show was trying to set up accommodations.

    Dates de tournage à Pierrefonds ( saison 5 )
    by Colin Morgan on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 at 7:18am ·

    Voici les dates du tournage de la saison 5 de Merlin en France, provenance de l'Office de Tourisme de Pierrefonds :

    Premère sessions du 14/06/2012 au 27/06/2012

    Deuxième sessions du 06/09/2012 au 14/09/2012

    sous réserve de modifications.

    Il semblerait que le tournage ne compte que deux sessions cette année, la session mars-avril ne figure pas en tête de liste ...

    TOUTEFOIS... rien est encore OFFICIEL et tout est approximatif donc patience ...

    source - Mist of Camelot - http://www.merlin-france.net
    .

    And, if the writers go the way of the Hero Archetype, then there's lots to discuss about what might happen. Especially the motivation behind
    Aithusa breathing life into Morgana
    because there are "monsters" to be expected on either a hero(ine)'s journey. And, I think that's what's happening now.

    Hmmm... you know it might be about the time for someone to start a Season 5 Spoiler/Speculation thread.
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    the most obvious christian symbol in merlin are the swords with the cross guards. I think you have done well to spot others as the series is so politically correct it will never rise above a childrens programme.
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    the most obvious christian symbol in merlin are the swords with the cross guards. I think you have done well to spot others as the series is so politically correct it will never rise above a childrens programme.

    Yes, it's not that easy to spot. But, it's a medieval period piece of a sort.

    There are other accidental symbols that might be Christian, once I started to really look for them. I stumbled upon more of them during the holiday while trying to find the crucifix in Gaius' room that I saw before (I haven't found it yet, it was on a shelf--- but there are other cross-like objects strewn here and there on the parapets of the castle, the banners and tapestries in the court and on Gaius' evening gown--- the ties are arranged so that it ends in a "crucifix" that looks to dangle at the front of his gown--- and his poster of a circle of crosses.)

    If some people believe that a shamrock represents the idea of the Holy Trinity, various crosses including embroidered ones have a religious connection to Christian beliefs, and that Celtic knots were used in religious manuscripts like the Book of Kells or Kidare then this show's got it. (I did a few screen caps this time and the shamrock's clearly seen on Uther's throne while a Celtic knot hangs around Uther's neck).

    If not, then it's just an "happy accident" for the cristos crowd, a coincidence in reality, but who look at the messianic scene in the Last Dragon Lord where Arthur (the Savior) asks 12 knights (12 Apostles?) to join him on a Quest to Save Camelot from the Dragon (Salvation?) but at the cost of their own lives in return for honor and glory thereafter even in death (A hereafter?) as something of a Christian thing. Or the Coming of Arthur which has a lot of references to sacred numbers and salvation.
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    MikeAP001 wrote: »
    Yes, it's not that easy to spot. But, it's a medieval period piece of a sort.

    There are other accidental symbols that might be Christian, once I started to really look for them. I stumbled upon more of them during the holiday while trying to find the crucifix in Gaius' room that I saw before (I haven't found it yet, it was on a shelf--- but there are other cross-like objects strewn here and there on the parapets of the castle, the banners and tapestries in the court and on Gaius' evening gown--- the ties are arranged so that it ends in a "crucifix" that looks to dangle at the front of his gown--- and his poster of a circle of crosses.)

    If some people believe that a shamrock represents the idea of the Holy Trinity, various crosses including embroidered ones have a religious connection to Christian beliefs, and that Celtic knots were used in religious manuscripts like the Book of Kells or Kidare then this show's got it. (I did a few screen caps this time and the shamrock's clearly seen on Uther's throne while a Celtic knot hangs around Uther's neck).

    If not, then it's just an "happy accident" for the cristos crowd, a coincidence in reality, but who look at the messianic scene in the Last Dragon Lord where Arthur (the Savior) asks 12 knights (12 Apostles?) to join him on a Quest to Save Camelot from the Dragon (Salvation?) but at the cost of their own lives in return for honor and glory thereafter even in death (A hereafter?) as something of a Christian thing. Or the Coming of Arthur which has a lot of references to sacred numbers and salvation.

    I still think your stretching it a bit. Christians were in Rome from about 40ad and Britain 200ad but they took over a lot of pagan symbols. Churches were built on pagan sites and near ancient standing stones so what in Merlin is a magic sign or symbol could just as easily be interpreted as christian.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    . . . is so politically correct it will never rise above a childrens programme.

    Please explain how it's politically correct and qualifies as a children's programme to me would you as I'm not sure I'm seeing that when I watch a programme that has characters which include someone hell bent on wholesale murder and destruction, another who constantly manipulates the truth to hide their secret, another one who used power and fear to maintain their rule and others in various other states of "moral" ambiguity.

    Merlin is neither Christian or Pagan, it has ambiguously named deities specifically because they appear to be trying to avoid setting it into any specific historical time period in the UK as that way madness lies with the number of "experts" who would come out to say they'd got various things wrong.
    The fact they still have a Mother Goddess based female Old Religion is completely out of step with the depiction of their Knights in shiny armour riding horses for example. Never mind the stone castle they live in with its water pump and lovely bronze statues.
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Please explain how it's politically correct and qualifies as a children's programme to me would you as I'm not sure I'm seeing that when I watch a programme that has characters which include someone hell bent on wholesale murder and destruction, another who constantly manipulates the truth to hide their secret, another one who used power and fear to maintain their rule and others in various other states of "moral" ambiguity.

    Merlin is neither Christian or Pagan, it has ambiguously named deities specifically because they appear to be trying to avoid setting it into any specific historical time period in the UK as that way madness lies with the number of "experts" who would come out to say they'd got various things wrong.
    The fact they still have a Mother Goddess based female Old Religion is completely out of step with the depiction of their Knights in shiny armour riding horses for example. Never mind the stone castle they live in with its water pump and lovely bronze statues.

    Because it is made for family viewing, In the last episodess when Morgana was having the knights starved and then apparently beaten half to death by her men they still went back to the cell unscathed so what was the point. About the only blood was when the girl warrior was scratched on the shoulder before she died. Sharpe was explicit maybe too much when showing the effects of a sword.

    As for politically correct, you explained it better than I did with it's ambiguity.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Because it is made for family viewing, In the last episodess when Morgana was having the knights starved and then apparently beaten half to death by her men they still went back to the cell unscathed so what was the point. About the only blood was when the girl warrior was scratched on the shoulder before she died. Sharpe was explicit maybe too much when showing the effects of a sword.

    As for politically correct, you explained it better than I did with it's ambiguity.

    Yes, it's family viewing, but it's not a children's programme otherwise you wouldn't have had any of the fighting, destruction or death at all and you wouldn't have had Merlin killing Agravaine in the manner in which he did or the burning field of corpses after the dragon wiped them out. Children's TV is things like Tracy Beaker, stuff that appears on Cbeebies, CBBC, not shows like Robin Hood or Merlin or Doctor Who which go out in the after tea time slot on a Saturday evening.
    You are certainly not going to see anything involving gushing blood, disembowling etc as you would see in Game of Thrones or Spartacus or Rome because they're not family viewing and go out at a much later time accordingly.

    And the ambiguity doesn't automatically make it politically correct in my opinion. It simply means they're trying to avoid putting it into a specific time frame.
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    ... Churches were built on pagan sites and near ancient standing stones so what in Merlin is a magic sign or symbol could just as easily be interpreted as christian.

    Precisely, the point made in this show though it is a very subtle and subliminal one. Merlin's not going to replace the New Religion with the Old as Morgana would but incorporate the New and Old together by ushering in an era of acceptance by each and forming a different way of life by taking the hopefully best of each once Albion is formed and established.

    And that's what one message of this show is: Tolerance. It is one of the principles of the early church missionaries and outlined in CITY of GOD, ON THE TRINITY, and ON CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, book 2 I think which formed much of the ideas of the early Churches during the time period you cited and was responsible for the acceptance of christian principles espoused by missionaries because the members of the older religion might in fact be witnesses to the newer one.

    However, by the medieval period most of this was wiped out. And, unfortunately, the lesson of Augustinian Tolerance for other within a christian community was lost.
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    LowriLowri Posts: 3,094
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    Really pleased to see Series 3 repeated on CBBC! I've now seen all of series 1 and 2 several times and I've forgotten much of series 3 so I'm really looking forward to these :D
    I intend to buy the DVDs at some point but I'm holding back in case series 5 is the last and they do a special set.
    Here is the first episode if anyone missed it
    I don't know if it's because of the easter holidays, but they're really pushing Merlin atm, there's episodes 6 days a week (link)! A bit worrying that it's back to series 2 next monday, I hope they show more than 5 episodes of series 3. Radio times doesn't give a proper episode description, although it does show further ahead than the BBC. Can anyone help me with this?
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    When I read above Merlin was on the CBBC channel i expected it at least 6pm but 215pm. who is the series aimed at? The under fours, truants, unemployed? The first few series were rated PG but the last series was 12 . are these episodes uncut or as I have said before it is a childrens series at least as much as the Richard Green Robin Hood or William Russell Sir Lancelot.
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    LowriLowri Posts: 3,094
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    When I read above Merlin was on the CBBC channel i expected it at least 6pm but 215pm. who is the series aimed at? The under fours, truants, unemployed? The first few series were rated PG but the last series was 12 . are these episodes uncut or as I have said before it is a childrens series at least as much as the Richard Green Robin Hood or William Russell Sir Lancelot.

    Re BIB: Hello! :-D As it happens I usually watch them on iplayer anyway (the DOG is also less annoying than the cbbc one)
    Series 3 ep 1 was longer than they often are at about 41 minutes. Some of the previous episodes are cut to about 30-35. Part of the reason I can't wait to buy the dvds, I hope I'm not being stupid waiting for a boxset that might never happen! I'll then have to wait over a year before it's cheap enough. Meh, decisions, decisions :confused:
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    DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    When I read above Merlin was on the CBBC channel i expected it at least 6pm but 215pm. who is the series aimed at? The under fours, truants, unemployed? The first few series were rated PG but the last series was 12 . are these episodes uncut or as I have said before it is a childrens series at least as much as the Richard Green Robin Hood or William Russell Sir Lancelot.

    Children on their Easter holidays. There wouldn't be any truants just now.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    When I read above Merlin was on the CBBC channel i expected it at least 6pm but 215pm. who is the series aimed at? The under fours, truants, unemployed? The first few series were rated PG but the last series was 12 . are these episodes uncut or as I have said before it is a childrens series at least as much as the Richard Green Robin Hood or William Russell Sir Lancelot.

    The CBBC channel is for teenagers and, if I remember correctly, the versions which are aired on there have been cut.
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    REVUpminsterREVUpminster Posts: 1,289
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    The CBBC channel is for teenagers and, if I remember correctly, the versions which are aired on there have been cut.

    Would teenagers admit to watching CBBC and a censored programme?
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Would teenagers admit to watching CBBC and a censored programme?

    Does it matter whether they do or not? CBBC's target audience is aged eight to 12 or 14 if I remember rightly and I would imagine the older end of that scale are watching Merlin when it airs on a Saturday at 8.15pm.
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    LowriLowri Posts: 3,094
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    I'm 22 and I watch Merlin and Sarah Jane Adventures and Horrible Histories on CBBC.
    There, I said it! :cool:
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    Lowri wrote: »
    I'm 22 and I watch Merlin and Sarah Jane Adventures and Horrible Histories on CBBC.
    There, I said it! :cool:

    I'm presuming you've also watched Merlin on BBC1 on a Saturday evening too though Lowri ;)
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    I'm presuming you've also watched Merlin on BBC1 on a Saturday evening too though Lowri ;)

    Just out of curiosity, did you think like me that the final episode of the Sword in the Stone was lacking?
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    LowriLowri Posts: 3,094
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    I'm presuming you've also watched Merlin on BBC1 on a Saturday evening too though Lowri ;)

    Try and stop me :D
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    LowriLowri Posts: 3,094
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    MikeAP001 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, did you think like me that the final episode of the Sword in the Stone was lacking?

    I don't think it was lacking (although I was hoping for a Merlin reveal at some point), but I can hardly remember what happened at all :o. I remember the series opener much better so perhaps that says everything!
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    Lowri wrote: »
    I don't think it was lacking (although I was hoping for a Merlin reveal at some point), but I can hardly remember what happened at all :o. I remember the series opener much better so perhaps that says everything!

    Right, I liked the opener, too. But, I thought the second part while good wasn't quite as good and lacking. (I'll admit, I thought that while Merlin was being healed by the good spirits of the Spring, one of them was Freya, AND I expected the writers to acknowledge that somewhere in the episode by having Merlin mumble... "Freya..." or Lancelot asking later, "Merlin, who's Freya?" And, seeing the expression on his face. It's the small things like that that would have made it for me.)

    But, I've noticed that Merlin two-parters seem to follow the trend where the first part is a better ep than the second when it should be the other way around.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    MikeAP001 wrote: »
    I'll admit, I thought that while Merlin was being healed by the good spirits of the Spring, one of them was Freya, AND I expected the writers to acknowledge that somewhere in the episode by having Merlin mumble... "Freya..." or Lancelot asking later, "Merlin, who's Freya?" And, seeing the expression on his face. It's the small things like that that would have made it for me.

    But why would Freya have anything to do with the spirits which healed Merlin? She's not a Vilia (which are the spirits of brooks and streams) she's the Lady of the Lake (the Lake of Avalon).
    MikeAP001 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, did you think like me that the final episode of the Sword in the Stone was lacking?

    No, I thought they wrapped up Series Four very well and still left open enough story lines that you wanted to tune in when it started again.
    Arthur and Morgana had a face to face which gave them a brief opportunity of "what ifs and why dids", Merlin demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt just how powerful he is and how far he's willing to go for the rise of "Albion" with Arthur as King of Camelot when he called the dragon on the invaders and when he cold bloodedly killed Agravaine, and Gwen became Queen after poor lovely Isolde had to bite the big one to show Arthur that if you love someone then being apart from them is stupid.
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    But why would Freya have anything to do with the spirits which healed Merlin? She's not a Vilia (which are the spirits of brooks and streams) she's the Lady of the Lake (the Lake of Avalon).

    In mythology, Celtic and otherwise, the Vilia are chthonic/earth spirits having dominion over the woodlands, fields, streams, brooks, and lakes. The Vilia appear in various forms and names but among areas occupied by Rome, the spelling and/or the pronunciation are commonly and the characteristics of these spirits are generally the same.

    In general, the Vilia are not benevolent or kind spirits to wayward humans, as Lancelot and Merlin were depicted in the episode, unless they had culled some sort of favor from them earlier. The ballet , GISELLE, is about Vilia taking vengeance upon a human.

    As for the second part, on seeing the episode again, it still seems to be lacking.
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    MikeAP001 wrote: »
    In mythology, Celtic and otherwise, the Vilia are chthonic/earth spirits having dominion over the woodlands, fields, streams, brooks, and lakes. The Vilia appear in various forms and names but among areas occupied by Rome, the spelling and/or the pronunciation are commonly and the characteristics of these spirits are generally the same.

    In general, the Vilia are not benevolent or kind spirits to wayward humans, as Lancelot and Merlin were depicted in the episode, unless they had culled some sort of favor from them earlier. The ballet , GISELLE, is about Vilia taking vengeance upon a human.

    As for the second part, on seeing the episode again, it still seems to be lacking.

    Yes, but that's in mythology not in THIS version :) And in Giselle they are Willis, the spirits of women betrayed before their wedding day, nothing to do with tree or river sprites.
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    MikeAP001MikeAP001 Posts: 1,916
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Yes, but that's in mythology not in THIS version :) And in Giselle they are Willis, the spirits of women betrayed before their wedding day, nothing to do with tree or river sprites.

    I remember the Great Dragon saying something along the lines that THIS version was a "Land of Myth and a Time of Magic"... he never did make any exclusionary clauses to limit the broader ideas of woodland spirit. I think he'll have to speak to Aithusa about including that stipulaiton the next time around! ;)

    Regardless, if I remember right: supposedly, the Celtic word "Vilia" had proto-Indo-European roots. "Wili" was another derivation of this root word and heavily used in the Western European regions of the Roman Empire, including the proto-Germanic branch from which English derives.

    Pronunciation-wise, the words in the proto-Indo-European tree: Vilia, Villi, Veela, Wilia, and Wili were similar or even the same depending upon the region and century in question, and referred to the same sort of creature: a nymph or other similar spirit, representing the powers of earth/nature.

    One of the earlier poems about the association involving the Vilia and the woods involved a hunter pining for the Vilia, the witch in the woods, in the MERRY WIDOW. Because of folk tales involving these sometimes malevolent spirits, the vengeance aspect of Vilia became emphasized.

    GISELLE borrows heavily from the vengeance aspect. Here, the Vilia as spirits of Vengeance are much like the Greek Erinyes (Roman, Furies). But, in the ballet, the Vilia... oops... I mean Willi retain much of their origins as woodland spirits (as they are in some legends avenging spirits who arise from women who died or were jilted on their wedding day, and beholden to Queen Myrtha, the spirit of the Bavarian Forest.)

    There are several Ukranian and Romanian legends and stories that borrow this same theme and same but for political correctness can't be mentioned because of their pro-Christian morals and the fact that I don't remember the names only the story lines.

    At any rate, Puccini's LE VILLIi (THE WILLI or The Faeries) restores much of the woodland spirit theme. The protagonist is lured into the woods because a grieving father has called upon the Villia (the spirits of the woods) for vengeance or another way of looking at it: a grieving father calls upon the spirits of vegeance which he finds among in the woodlands.

    Either way it's viewed, the Vilia are chthonic spirits who exact vengeance. Bottom line: you don't want to mess with them or meet them. But, they didn't have any probs with Lancer or Merlin--- I doubt they'd be so nice to anyone else without the presence of the show's wizard including Arthur--- and, it could have been that destiny thing but I think it would have been a nicer touch if Freya had put in a good word for them with the other spirits.
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