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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)

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    thorrthorr Posts: 2,153
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    Great thanks for that info. So it looks like it could be down to the wire again for Lewis. Let's hope it's not as close as the last time he won the champs. That was nerve wracking. :o

    For the last half lap, I stopped breathing!
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    thorrthorr Posts: 2,153
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    Comfy win for Hamilton after Rosberg had a rush of blood at the start. The drivers are said to like the track but it was one of the dullest races in ages and F1 needs a new track designer.

    I don't like double points at the last GP for the simple reason even if you are 49 points ahead but your car gives up on you or the likes of Maldonado runs into you you can lose the WDC.

    You could argue the same being 24 pts ahead, even if it wasn't double pts. Fact of the matter is that everyone has been aware of the rules since the start of the season. The championship is not won until the chequered flag drops on the final race, any permutation of circumstance can occur before then at any time during the season do decide who is WDC - including luck. Maybe the wrong person wins - not for the first time, but that is the nature of the sport. Nico is lucky to still be with a chance of being WDC, only because the Mercedes has been so dominant - nine 1-2s, has enjoyed more of the reliability luck, and also managed to stay on track after his incident at Spa.
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    anyonefortennisanyonefortennis Posts: 111,858
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    thorr wrote: »
    For the last half lap, I stopped breathing!

    As a F1 fan it was fantastic viewing. As a Lewis fan not so when it so nerve wrackingly close like that.
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    Assa2Assa2 Posts: 10,345
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    Here's my theory on Alonso's future:

    I suspect he was well aware Ferrari had an option on Vettel and maybe knew Vettel had a get-out clause at Red Bull. However I think he probably thought up until recently that Vettel would be joining Ferrari in 2016 to take Kimi's seat. I wonder if Alonso then got wind that Ferrari had been in touch with Hamilton over a 2016 switch and realised that his seat was therefore also being discussed. He realised that a seat at Mercedes would be available in 2016 so decided to leave now, making way for Vettel and is going to Mclaren for 2015 with an option to stay if the Honda engine works out. If not he figures the Mercedes drive will be there in 2016. He's risking having a bad season with Mclaren and then missing out on Mercedes if they opt for someone else but he's towards the end of his career now so probably figures it's worth the risk. I think this leaves Button without a drive. Mclaren will take Alonso even if it's for just 1 year as it gives them a fighting chance to attract the sponsors they need and they'll hope Honda given them the return to winning ways.
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    TheToonArmyTheToonArmy Posts: 2,908
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    Assa2 wrote: »
    Here's my theory on Alonso's future:

    I suspect he was well aware Ferrari had an option on Vettel and maybe knew Vettel had a get-out clause at Red Bull. However I think he probably thought up until recently that Vettel would be joining Ferrari in 2016 to take Kimi's seat. I wonder if Alonso then got wind that Ferrari had been in touch with Hamilton over a 2016 switch and realised that his seat was therefore also being discussed. He realised that a seat at Mercedes would be available in 2016 so decided to leave now, making way for Vettel and is going to Mclaren for 2015 with an option to stay if the Honda engine works out. If not he figures the Mercedes drive will be there in 2016. He's risking having a bad season with Mclaren and then missing out on Mercedes if they opt for someone else but he's towards the end of his career now so probably figures it's worth the risk. I think this leaves Button without a drive. Mclaren will take Alonso even if it's for just 1 year as it gives them a fighting chance to attract the sponsors they need and they'll hope Honda given them the return to winning ways.

    If lewis wins the championship then I cannot see him leaving at end of 2015, Merc will want to retain him

    Why would lewis want to drive for Ferrari, there's no sign of them in the slightest competing against the merc

    Why would Merc let lewis go and opt for an ageing alonso, while he's probably is better than most drivers he's not getting any younger.

    The only way I can see alonso driving a Merc is a 3 car team.
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    MythicaMythica Posts: 3,808
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    thorr wrote: »
    You could argue the same being 24 pts ahead, even if it wasn't double pts. Fact of the matter is that everyone has been aware of the rules since the start of the season. The championship is not won until the chequered flag drops on the final race, any permutation of circumstance can occur before then at any time during the season do decide who is WDC - including luck. Maybe the wrong person wins - not for the first time, but that is the nature of the sport. Nico is lucky to still be with a chance of being WDC, only because the Mercedes has been so dominant - nine 1-2s, has enjoyed more of the reliability luck, and also managed to stay on track after his incident at Spa.

    No you can't as one wouldn't be getting 'free' points for doing nothing. There has been some silly things in F1 but this just takes the biscuit.
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    thorrthorr Posts: 2,153
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    If lewis wins the championship then I cannot see him leaving at end of 2015, Merc will want to retain him

    Why would lewis want to drive for Ferrari, there's no sign of them in the slightest competing against the merc

    Why would Merc let lewis go and opt for an ageing alonso, while he's probably is better than most drivers he's not getting any younger.

    The only way I can see alonso driving a Merc is a 3 car team.

    I doubt Lewis will be heading to Ferrari - the team looks miles off. I suspect that Alonso and Lewis will both consider a move to McLaren at some point, depending on how the Honda Engine shapes up. Lewis has recognised that moving to a team who have hidden potential (such as his initially strange move to Merc) can pay dividends, and may pull a similar stroke again. It is hard to believe it has been 8 years since Alonso was last WDC, and so he needs to find a team that is going to be capable of winning from the off. McLaren is a gamble, and he doesn't want to be tied to a long contract if it doesn't work out - so I suspect there is some hard ball negotiations being played out.

    As for Jenson and Kevin, Button has the experience to help develop the car, more so than Magnussen and probably more so than Alonso - who strikes me as a driver who drives round a car's problems , rather than adapting the car to be more driveable. In this respect, Button deserves the second seat at McLaren.
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    thorrthorr Posts: 2,153
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    Mythica wrote: »
    No you can't as one wouldn't be getting 'free' points for doing nothing. There has been some silly things in F1 but this just takes the biscuit.

    How are you getting free points for doing nothing?:confused:
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    MythicaMythica Posts: 3,808
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    thorr wrote: »
    How are you getting free points for doing nothing?:confused:

    Seriously? Would have thought that was very obvious.
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    ati_qtimportaati_qtimporta Posts: 165
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    thorr wrote: »

    As for Jenson and Kevin, Button has the experience to help develop the car, more so than Magnussen and probably more so than Alonso - who strikes me as a driver who drives round a car's problems , rather than adapting the car to be more driveable. In this respect, Button deserves the second seat at McLaren.

    Are you serious? Are you saying Alonso didn't adapt to the car? If you look at his years in Ferrari, he was the only driver who always got the results.....destroyed Massa, destroyed Kimi so far.... but he is still not adapting to the car? LOL
    He was almost capable of winning a race this year with a tractor (finished 2nd).
    I would like to see how other drivers would handle this car.
    In my opinion, the only driver who could compare with him would be Hamilton, so Alonso is better by far than the others.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,190
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    Are you serious? Are you saying Alonso didn't adapt to the car? If you look at his years in Ferrari, he was the only driver who always got the results.....destroyed Massa, destroyed Kimi so far.... but he is still not adapting to the car? LOL
    He was almost capable of winning a race this year with a tractor (finished 2nd).
    I would like to see how other drivers would handle this car.
    In my opinion, the only driver who could compare with him would be Hamilton, so Alonso is better by far than the others.

    I re-read that post if I were you.... what he said was that "Alonso drives around the cars problems" IE gets better results than the car deserves.
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    Assa2Assa2 Posts: 10,345
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    Why would lewis want to drive for Ferrari, there's no sign of them in the slightest competing against the merc

    Same reason Vettel is willing to leave Red Bull for Ferrari - partly the money, partly the prestige of driving for them, partly the challenge of emulating Schuey's success and partly the recognition that Ferrari are serious about returning to the top. It's exactly what he did when he left Mclaren for Mercedes.
    Why would Merc let lewis go and opt for an ageing alonso, while he's probably is better than most drivers he's not getting any younger.

    If Hamilton wants to leave there's nothing Mercedes will be able to do about it. He has a contract for next season and doesn't have to sign for longer. Then they'll be left with an empty car and who's going to fill it? Alonso will be the 'best' of the available drivers.

    I'm not saying this is what's going to or even likely to happen, only that it's possibly what Alonso thinks is going to happen. Interesting that the BBC chief F1 reporter seems to agree with me!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29604437
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,263
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    thorr wrote: »
    ..................As for Jenson and Kevin, Button has the experience to help develop the car, more so than Magnussen and probably more so than Alonso .............

    I keep reading that Button is supposed to be good at developing the car but for the life of me, can't see where this evidence is coming from. You can't count his championship win, that was a designers success story.
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    ati_qtimportaati_qtimporta Posts: 165
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    bystander wrote: »
    I keep reading that Button is supposed to be good at developing the car but for the life of me, can't see where this evidence is coming from. You can't count his championship win, that was a designers success story.

    I agree.
    I understood that Button was or is better than Alonso developing the car, and that's something I don't agree with.
    Justabloke wrote: »
    I re-read that post if I were you.... what he said was that "Alonso drives around the cars problems" IE gets better results than the car deserves.

    Well, I'm not English and there are several expressions I don't know.
    But to me, there is something wrong because he said that Button is suposed to be good developing the car, even better than Alonso (I don't know what is that based on)
    and then he said that Alonso gets better results than the car deserves......
    Maybe he is saying that Alonso is good driving the car but not developing it...:confused:
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    DanielFDanielF Posts: 2,006
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    I agree.
    I understood that Button was or is better than Alonso developing the car, and that's something I don't agree with.



    Well, I'm not English and there are several expressions I don't know.
    But to me, there is something wrong because he said that Button is suposed to be good developing the car, even better than Alonso (I don't know what is that based on)
    and then he said that Alonso gets better results than the car deserves......
    Maybe he is saying that Alonso is good driving the car but not developing it...:confused:

    I think what he was saying is that Alonso is so good that if a car has inherent problems then he finds the best way to drive it without addressing them - whereas Button knows how to find a car's issues.

    For me, how much input does a driver get developing these days? With the lack of testing, surely the biggest gains are found back at base?
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    dansusdansus Posts: 2,559
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    bystander wrote: »
    I keep reading that Button is supposed to be good at developing the car but for the life of me, can't see where this evidence is coming from. You can't count his championship win, that was a designers success story.

    Hes very smooth and consistent, letting the car do the work, which is why he has always been good in changeable conditions.

    Alonso and Hamilton tend be more aggressive on turn-in and can live with a loose rear end mid corner. They will naturally drive round problems or deficiency's in the design, which is good for racing but not what you want for development.

    Michael was the same, his cars were developed with so much oversteer to balance the massive entry speed, that no one else could drive the thing.
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    Mark FMark F Posts: 54,048
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    Seems like there are accusations that Bianchi was going too fast/didn't slow down.

    I just hope we don't such stories without knowing full facts.

    Now isn't really the time to start pointing fingers is it?
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    Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
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    I think Button and Alonso probably have different things to offer a team.

    It's probably true to say that teams use technology rather than drivers to develop their cars, these days, but that doesn't mean it always goes according to plan.
    I mean, McLaren's super-duper car designing team must have, presumably, decided that stuff like the funky upside-down front suspension etc were actually a good idea, on paper at least.

    That's the sort of situation where a guy like Button does come in handy because he can drive in a consistent enough manner to allow a team to draw reliable comparisons between alternative parts and let them decide whether the parts yield the predicted benefit and allow them to learn more about what works in the real-world.

    The funky front suspension is a good example of that at work.
    Some genius has realised that it means the dampers and linkages are at the bottom of the car which means it has a lower centre of gravity and that it should be possible to build a suspension system that works in tension rather than in compression so it should work just the same.
    The reality, however, appears to be that the benefit of the lower CG is smaller than predicted and that it's harder to set up properly and it's less compliant in use.

    And a team needs to have reliable driver before they can draw conclusions like that and learn from them.
    The team does, of course, also need to be prepared to learn from the empirical data as well, though.

    Which brings us to Alonso...

    His biggest problem seems to be that Ferrari are so desperate to win something, at the moment, that they're just throwing money and technology at the car and expecting Alonso to drive the wheels off it.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrari are only just starting to come to terms with the fact that they've lost their way.
    I mean, Schuey was winning everything in sight, Raikkonen jumped into the car and he won too (and I don't think, at the time, anybody at Ferrari was willing to acknowledge that he only won because Hamilton and Alonso were busy tripping each other up) and then Alonso got the seat and "suddenly" Ferrari stopped winning.

    It probably took at least 2 seasons before anybody at Ferrari was willing to admit they weren't producing a winning car any more and then they seem to have come to rely on Alonso to just make the best of whatever they produce rather than being prepared to admit they need to take a step back, regroup and accept that it'd be a couple of year's work to methodically develop a class-winning car again.

    After years of this cycle, I imagine Alonso would welcome a seat at a team who're prepared to accept that it'll take time to develop a winning car and not put pressure on him to win in a car that simply isn't capable of it.
    Course, if he does end up in that situation, it really is "put up or shut up" time for Alonso in that if a team are looking to him to help develop a car, he'll need to provide more than a heavy right foot and a good brain for race-strategy.
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    Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
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    Mark F wrote: »
    Seems like there are accusations that Bianchi was going too fast/didn't slow down.

    I just hope we don't such stories without knowing full facts.

    Now isn't really the time to start pointing fingers is it?

    Not really sure about any of that TBH.

    I mean, if Bianchi simply slid off the circuit while in an area where there were waved yellows he clearly was going way too fast.
    And, as I said before, if there was any question of the car's reliability being in question then surely it'd be reckless to have sent Malfoy out to race in Sochi?

    So, on the basis that there wasn't an issue with the car, why shouldn't people "point fingers" at the real cause of the incident, even if that means being critical of a driver, if it helps lead to a useful safety improvement?

    All this stuff about how they should use mobile cranes to remove cars, rather than telehandlers, seems like a good idea on the face of it but if the real issue is that drivers aren't slowing down sufficiently then it still leaves marshals and other drivers at risk from a driver who's going too fast and a failure to address the real problem still leaves those people at risk.
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    ACUACU Posts: 9,104
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    Mark F wrote: »
    Seems like there are accusations that Bianchi was going too fast/didn't slow down.

    I just hope we don't such stories without knowing full facts.

    Now isn't really the time to start pointing fingers is it?

    From the video that I saw, it was pretty obvious he was going to fast. I dont think thats in doubt. What is in doubt was why he was going to fast. Was it a fault in the car, or was he ignoring waved double yellow flags, or something else?
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    Mark FMark F Posts: 54,048
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    Fair points - does have to be investigated and as you say the reasons has to be found.

    Just maybe not the time to find blame yet.
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    ACUACU Posts: 9,104
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    Mark F wrote: »
    Fair points - does have to be investigated and as you say the reasons has to be found.

    Just maybe not the time to find blame yet.

    When is the right time? There is another race in two weeks time.

    Its unfortunate that a driver was very seriously injured, and may not wake up again, and thus lose his life. That is tragic, and not something you wish would happen to anyone.

    However if drivers are ignoring yellow flags, then something needs to be done about it, so they dont. Can you imagine if Bianchi lost control a split second later, he would have missed the recovery vehicle and headed straight for a marshall. Bianchi would have been ok, as he would have gone into a tyre wall, but the marshall not so lucky.

    I think the FIA need to put an interim solution in place, whilst they think of a good solution to the problem. The interim solution could be as simple as, a driver must complete a lap with waved yellows, 5 seconds (10 seconds for double yellows) less than his previous lap time. If he doesnt then 10/20 seconds will be added to his final time.

    A simple solution like this would soon make the drivers slow down.
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    Assa2Assa2 Posts: 10,345
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    Charlie Whiting confirmed that all drivers, including Bianchi, slowed for the yellows. He also commented that some slowed more than others however he would not confirm specifics i.e. how much Bianchi actually slowed by. Given the other comments coming from the FIA that drivers were not doing enough slowing under yellows it's easy to add things together and assume Bianchi hadn't slowed by much.

    The prickly question is going to be how to decide what 'enough' is under the variable circumstances of each race or if to mandate a hard rule no matter where, when or why. It's also going to be a very delicate matter to lay the blame with Bianchi if that's how it turns out. I suspect it will be pointed out that other drivers passed through the yellows at the same speed (assuming some did) so while there's recognition that they were perhaps going too fast there was also a huge element of misfortune in Bianchi's accident.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,263
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    Si_Crewe wrote: »
    ......That's the sort of situation where a guy like Button does come in handy because he can drive in a consistent enough manner to allow a team to draw reliable comparisons between alternative parts and let them decide whether the parts yield the predicted benefit and allow them to learn more about what works in the real-world......

    Perhaps that's McLaren's problem, instead of focusing on a smooth and steady plodder, like Button, to help develop the car, they should try paying more attention to someone who is more of a racer.
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    Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
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    ACU wrote: »
    I think the FIA need to put an interim solution in place, whilst they think of a good solution to the problem. The interim solution could be as simple as, a driver must complete a lap with waved yellows, 5 seconds (10 seconds for double yellows) less than his previous lap time. If he doesnt then 10/20 seconds will be added to his final time.

    A simple solution like this would soon make the drivers slow down.

    Must say, I've always found the Safety Car to be a bit unfair (and, erm, not just now that it's usually Hamilton who gets shafted by it) so I'd rather some kind of system that allowed a driver to (roughly, if not exactly) maintain their track position in relation to those in front and behind.

    Seems like waved yellows always being full-course would be a pretty reasonable solution to that.

    Personally, I reckon the only reason the SC should be out there is when there's something actually on the circuit and the drivers need somebody to lead them all through it.
    bystander wrote: »
    Perhaps that's McLaren's problem, instead of focusing on a smooth and steady plodder, like Button, to help develop the car, they should try paying more attention to someone who is more of a racer.

    Well, that's the thing, isn't it?
    Go too far one way and you end up in a situation a bit like what's happening with Alonso, at Ferrari, where the designers can, basically, come up with any old pile of crap and Alonso will flatter it whereas, OTOH, if you go too far the other way you risk ending up building a nice, comfy, car that's easy to drive but isn't fast.

    I suppose that's why teams often try to pair up guys like Button and Hamilton so that they can figure out if a car is just "challenging" or if it's just plain crap.
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