It definitely wasn't Wil Wheaton that was the problem, it was how the Wesley character was written and what function he fulfilled within the show in the early days. Essentially, wunderkind, who for some reason had privileged access to many of the ships critical/core systems and ended up as a walking deus ex machina, saving the ship more times than anyone else in at least the first season of the show.
The character does get better, particularly when he gets the uniform, and there are of course some episodes that you haven't seen yet that might colour your opinion of the character. The First Duty and Journey's End in particular.
It also doesn't help that you have DS9, that also features a kid, that absolutely nails how to use him properly. Jake's a fantastically written character from start to finish. Wesley had flashes of brilliance along the way but also tended to act as a crutch for lazy writing at times. Unfortunately, the writers were largely faceless names to viewers at the time. Wil Wheaton, and Wesley Crusher, were not, and therefore copped the most flak/ire.
So what's the problem people have with him? Was it the character or the actor playing him?
Al lot of the flack comes the first season. At that point the character was bland and a two goody two shoes....but so were all the characters. Some people had a problem with the idea of a child prodigy outsmarting experienced officers week after week. For the most part the "hate" wasn't genuine though, it became a bit of an cliche joke thing to hate Wesley. The general dislike people seem to have for kids on TV shows fuelled it and kept it going.
Gene Roddenberry based the character on himself when he was younger, so he did take offence to the negativity.
It definitely wasn't Wil Wheaton that was the problem, it was how the Wesley character was written and what function he fulfilled within the show in the early days. Essentially, wunderkind, who for some reason had privileged access to many of the ships critical/core systems and ended up as a walking deus ex machina, saving the ship more times than anyone else in at least the first season of the show.
The character does get better, particularly when he gets the uniform, and there are of course some episodes that you haven't seen yet that might colour your opinion of the character. The First Duty and Journey's End in particular.
It also doesn't help that you have DS9, that also features a kid, that absolutely nails how to use him properly. Jake's a fantastically written character from start to finish. Wesley had flashes of brilliance along the way but also tended to act as a crutch for lazy writing at times. Unfortunately, the writers were largely faceless names to viewers at the time. Wil Wheaton, and Wesley Crusher, were not, and therefore copped the most flak/ire.
Al lot of the flack comes the first season. At that point the character was bland and a two goody two shoes....but so were all the characters. Some people had a problem with the idea of a child prodigy outsmarting experienced officers week after week. For the most part the "hate" wasn't genuine though, it became a bit of an cliche joke thing to hate Wesley. The general dislike people seem to have for kids on TV shows fuelled it and kept it going.
Gene Roddenberry based the character on himself when he was younger, so he did take offence to the negativity.
Thanks for the replies, both of you. So it looks like overall the Wesley character at least improved as time went on. I do agree with both of you that having him save the day so often in season 1 wasn't really a good idea. Perhaps they could've waited til he got the uniform before he was allowed to show his true worth and usefulness.
I have another question. I read on Wikipedia about the circumstances of Gates McFadden's absence from season 2 and subsequent re-appearance in season 3. Clearly she fell out with certain members of the production crew and I see someone in this thread mentioned an interesting allegation allegedly made against Maurice Hurley by Gates McFadden which seems to have been backed up by the link provided by that fm.
However, I'm actually more interested in her one-time replacement Diana Muldaur's experience on the show. Her Wikipedia page quotes her saying she didn't enjoy her experience on the TNG set compared to her previous guest appearances on the original series. Is this true? Does anyone have any more detailed info about what she thought of her time on TNG? Has she ever mentioned names among the production crew or even the main cast she apparently didn't get on with? Did the regular cast resent her replacing Gates McFadden? Or was the Wikipedia quote attributed to Muldaur complete bollocks? I'm really curious about this and would love to know the truth if possible!
From memory, re Diana Muldaur, it wasn't that anyone was specifically nasty to her, but clearly, GM was part of a pretty tight-knit ensemble cast in the first season, and DM wasn't. To have GM ousted, under a cloud, and then someone new come in....I guess it was bound to have an effect.
DM had a lot of technobabble which I don't think she was particularly happy with as well, and then there was also the obvious fan reaction. Turns out that GM/Doctor Crusher was pretty popular with fans and most of them weren't overly enamoured in seeing her replaced. Worse, the writers wanted to recapture 'the spirit of Bones' and tried to create a prickly attitude towards Data - mistake number 2, as Data was also massively popular with fans and Pulaski's attitude towards Data almost comes across as bullying at the start of the season.
All in all, it would have been interesting to see how long DM would have lasted if other factors hadn't aligned to ensure that GM came back for the third season onwards. I highly doubt that DM would have stayed with the show until the end of its run.
Of course the sentence also has to include 'NOT' for it to work, but there you go.....:D
Seriously though, this is ONE of the fundamental issues I had with Voyager, it was woefully miscast. Evident from the fcukup they had in casting the role of Janeway in the first place. Anyone who's seen the Genevieve Bujold scenes on the Voyager extras must have been left wondering how the fook she ever got cast in the first place?!
Then there's Harry Dim - woeful character - both written and acted. Tuvok, the most boring of Vulcans ever to grace(?) Star Trek.....There's Chakotay who might easily have been replaced by a plank of wood. Neelix, fabulous actor in Ethan Phillips, completely wasted on a generally irritating character.
It also p1ssed me off that they took the lazy route of renaming Locarno to Paris just so that they didn't have to pay royalties to the writers of TNG's The First Duty. :rolleyes:
B'Elana Torres too - dull. How do you make the Klingons dull FFS?
Take the EMH, Seven, and Paris out of the equation and it's arguably one of the most unlikeable casts in television outside of reality shows!
This post is great, as it says everything I want to say about Voyager without having to type it out. You are so right, the cast was awful, which is such a shame as the premise about a lost Federation ship trying to make its way back was tantalisingly good.
Thanks for the replies, both of you. So it looks like overall the Wesley character at least improved as time went on. I do agree with both of you that having him save the day so often in season 1 wasn't really a good idea. Perhaps they could've waited til he got the uniform before he was allowed to show his true worth and usefulness.
I have another question. I read on Wikipedia about the circumstances of Gates McFadden's absence from season 2 and subsequent re-appearance in season 3. Clearly she fell out with certain members of the production crew and I see someone in this thread mentioned an interesting allegation allegedly made against Maurice Hurley by Gates McFadden which seems to have been backed up by the link provided by that fm.
However, I'm actually more interested in her one-time replacement Diana Muldaur's experience on the show. Her Wikipedia page quotes her saying she didn't enjoy her experience on the TNG set compared to her previous guest appearances on the original series. Is this true? Does anyone have any more detailed info about what she thought of her time on TNG? Has she ever mentioned names among the production crew or even the main cast she apparently didn't get on with? Did the regular cast resent her replacing Gates McFadden? Or was the Wikipedia quote attributed to Muldaur complete bollocks? I'm really curious about this and would love to know the truth if possible!
It was contractural. Diana was only contracted as a special guest star for one season. At a recent convention she stated that she got another role off the back of a TNG episode and had no intention of extending. The producers then had no choice really but to go back to gates or recast the doctor yet again.
It's been widely reported over the years that Diana Muldaur and Patrick Stewart didn't like each other. Reasons unknown. There may have been resentment at her presence over the Gates incident, which of course had nothing to do with Muldaur, or it could just have been personality conflict.
I think Muldaur also hated wearing prosthetic makeup, although she only did the one episode where she was heavily aged via latex and other makeup.
^^ Enterprise seasons are £17/£18 each on Blu Ray as well. For those that might want them.
Re the alien races in Voyager - completely agree. The Kazon were a terrible idea - let's cross the Klingons with the Ferengi....? Inspired!
And my God, way to ruin the Borg - completely emasculate them. Way over-exposed in Voyager, and went from being Star Trek's ultimate nemesis, being able to bring the Federation to its knees with a single cube, to Janeway flying Voyager around the Delta Quadrant taking out cubes with just one of her 'magic' torpedoes. Yeah, right.....
Thanks for posting that, Bester. I snapped up season 4 Enterprise last night for £18. They must've sold all their inventory now as the price has gone back up to £32.80 and delivery is now 7 - 8 days!
Thanks for posting that, Bester. I snapped up season 4 Enterprise last night for £18. They must've sold all their inventory now as the price has gone back up to £32.80 and delivery is now 7 - 8 days!
It was only ever a 3 day sale on Trek stuff to "celebrate" the extortionately priced Destination Star Trek London event.
From memory, re Diana Muldaur, it wasn't that anyone was specifically nasty to her, but clearly, GM was part of a pretty tight-knit ensemble cast in the first season, and DM wasn't. To have GM ousted, under a cloud, and then someone new come in....I guess it was bound to have an effect.
DM had a lot of technobabble which I don't think she was particularly happy with as well, and then there was also the obvious fan reaction. Turns out that GM/Doctor Crusher was pretty popular with fans and most of them weren't overly enamoured in seeing her replaced. Worse, the writers wanted to recapture 'the spirit of Bones' and tried to create a prickly attitude towards Data - mistake number 2, as Data was also massively popular with fans and Pulaski's attitude towards Data almost comes across as bullying at the start of the season.
All in all, it would have been interesting to see how long DM would have lasted if other factors hadn't aligned to ensure that GM came back for the third season onwards. I highly doubt that DM would have stayed with the show until the end of its run.
It was contractural. Diana was only contracted as a special guest star for one season. At a recent convention she stated that she got another role off the back of a TNG episode and had no intention of extending. The producers then had no choice really but to go back to gates or recast the doctor yet again.
It's been widely reported over the years that Diana Muldaur and Patrick Stewart didn't like each other. Reasons unknown. There may have been resentment at her presence over the Gates incident, which of course had nothing to do with Muldaur, or it could just have been personality conflict.
I think Muldaur also hated wearing prosthetic makeup, although she only did the one episode where she was heavily aged via latex and other makeup.
Thanks again for the replies. Looks like a whole number of things happened to lead to DM leaving and GM coming back. Its a shame as I thought DM was a great actress but it was still good to see GM back for season 3 onwards. Perhaps Polaski should've been used as a recurring character on the show, as Dr Crusher's mentor maybe?
When you think about the number of screw-ups they managed in the first couple of seasons with the quality of the storylines and writing, the way Wesley Crusher was written, getting rid of GM, the way Dr Polaski was written which partly lead to DM leaving and having to bring back GM to correct their original error, its amazing the show managed to survive beyond the first couple of seasons but I for one am glad it did as it was a fantastic show which just got better and better by the looks of it.
Also, interesting comment about DM and Patrick Stewart apparently not getting on with each other. I'm glad I'm not the only who wondered if that was the case as Muldaur's Wikipedia page also said she had no chemistry with PS and I always wonder whether a lack of chemistry between two actors is also a sign they don't like each other? On the other hand it could just be he missed having his favourite red-head around at the time ;-):D Nonetheless, like the last poster I quoted, I also suspect DM and PS didn't like each other much.
Al lot of the flack comes the first season. At that point the character was bland and a two goody two shoes....but so were all the characters. Some people had a problem with the idea of a child prodigy outsmarting experienced officers week after week. For the most part the "hate" wasn't genuine though, it became a bit of an cliche joke thing to hate Wesley. The general dislike people seem to have for kids on TV shows fuelled it and kept it going.
Gene Roddenberry based the character on himself when he was younger, so he did take offence to the negativity.
I really disliked Wesley when I watched the show for the first time as a teenager . You had all these cool characters doing dangerous stuff and then there was this 'teachers pet' kid who seemed to be taken straight out of a episode of the Waltons.
Watching the series more recently I have less of an issue with him. I've come to understand that Roddenberry wanted someone to project the 'best' of what he saw would happen to mankind in the future, and who better to do that with than a kid. He obviously became a more complex and interesting character with his latter episodes but I'm not sure if Gene would have approved of the change.
I know this is a season 1 thread but I just thought I'd say I watched the first episode of season 2, 'The Child', last night. I thought I'd at least glimpsed every episode of TNG at some point but I've never seen this Troi-centric one before! Always nice to get a completely fresh one.
Though the whole show feels fresh with this re-mastering. Saying that, this episode definitely had a dodgier restoration than the season 1 ones. The Enterprise looked a bit like a plastic toy and the planet they were orbiting was naff. I remember reading a while ago that the team doing the new effects for season 2 weren't going to be used again, so I'm glad about that.
This post is great, as it says everything I want to say about Voyager without having to type it out. You are so right, the cast was awful, which is such a shame as the premise about a lost Federation ship trying to make its way back was tantalisingly good.
One of the worst things about Voyager was not only that it had a lot of potential in its premise, but that now and again they actually teased what the show could have been. Stories like "Year of Hell," and "Equinox," gave us an idea of the sort of issues and moral dilemmas the crew could have been facing.
But instead we got fun Irish jaunts in the holodeck.
Re: Voyager - I think you have to see it in the context of the tv market at the time. It was a simple fact that self contained episodes were more commercial than story arcs. DS9 was the critical success but Voyager episodes are, even now, preferred by tv networks. It's telling that 'Enterprise' stuck with the same format for the first two series as well and the remaining two had only a loose story arc.
Re: Voyager - I think you have to see it in the context of the tv market at the time. It was a simple fact that self contained episodes were more commercial than story arcs. DS9 was the critical success but Voyager episodes are, even now, preferred by tv networks. It's telling that 'Enterprise' stuck with the same format for the first two series as well and the remaining two had only a loose story arc.
I can't help but disagree with you. A lot of shows these days are not self contained standalones, especially in sci-fi at the moment. They are very serialized arc heavy. Too arc heavy for my liking. It's one of the many reasons why i find the sci-fi television genre at it's poorest at the moment. It's exhausting and alienating to present 22 episode arc heavy episodes to a viewer (well to me), to the point where it can affect character development and time to actually breathe and allow a viewer to be able to take in what is going on.
As much as voyager had it's faults, i can only wish for a show as self contained as that was to be on the air today.
Re: Voyager - I think you have to see it in the context of the tv market at the time. It was a simple fact that self contained episodes were more commercial than story arcs. DS9 was the critical success but Voyager episodes are, even now, preferred by tv networks. It's telling that 'Enterprise' stuck with the same format for the first two series as well and the remaining two had only a loose story arc.
Seasons 1 & 2 had the loose arc with the temporal cold war. Season 3 was pretty arc intensive and season 4 on the whole was a series of 2, 3 or 4 episode arcs.
Comments
The character does get better, particularly when he gets the uniform, and there are of course some episodes that you haven't seen yet that might colour your opinion of the character. The First Duty and Journey's End in particular.
It also doesn't help that you have DS9, that also features a kid, that absolutely nails how to use him properly. Jake's a fantastically written character from start to finish. Wesley had flashes of brilliance along the way but also tended to act as a crutch for lazy writing at times. Unfortunately, the writers were largely faceless names to viewers at the time. Wil Wheaton, and Wesley Crusher, were not, and therefore copped the most flak/ire.
Al lot of the flack comes the first season. At that point the character was bland and a two goody two shoes....but so were all the characters. Some people had a problem with the idea of a child prodigy outsmarting experienced officers week after week. For the most part the "hate" wasn't genuine though, it became a bit of an cliche joke thing to hate Wesley. The general dislike people seem to have for kids on TV shows fuelled it and kept it going.
Gene Roddenberry based the character on himself when he was younger, so he did take offence to the negativity.
I have another question. I read on Wikipedia about the circumstances of Gates McFadden's absence from season 2 and subsequent re-appearance in season 3. Clearly she fell out with certain members of the production crew and I see someone in this thread mentioned an interesting allegation allegedly made against Maurice Hurley by Gates McFadden which seems to have been backed up by the link provided by that fm.
However, I'm actually more interested in her one-time replacement Diana Muldaur's experience on the show. Her Wikipedia page quotes her saying she didn't enjoy her experience on the TNG set compared to her previous guest appearances on the original series. Is this true? Does anyone have any more detailed info about what she thought of her time on TNG? Has she ever mentioned names among the production crew or even the main cast she apparently didn't get on with? Did the regular cast resent her replacing Gates McFadden? Or was the Wikipedia quote attributed to Muldaur complete bollocks? I'm really curious about this and would love to know the truth if possible!
DM had a lot of technobabble which I don't think she was particularly happy with as well, and then there was also the obvious fan reaction. Turns out that GM/Doctor Crusher was pretty popular with fans and most of them weren't overly enamoured in seeing her replaced. Worse, the writers wanted to recapture 'the spirit of Bones' and tried to create a prickly attitude towards Data - mistake number 2, as Data was also massively popular with fans and Pulaski's attitude towards Data almost comes across as bullying at the start of the season.
All in all, it would have been interesting to see how long DM would have lasted if other factors hadn't aligned to ensure that GM came back for the third season onwards. I highly doubt that DM would have stayed with the show until the end of its run.
This post is great, as it says everything I want to say about Voyager without having to type it out. You are so right, the cast was awful, which is such a shame as the premise about a lost Federation ship trying to make its way back was tantalisingly good.
It was contractural. Diana was only contracted as a special guest star for one season. At a recent convention she stated that she got another role off the back of a TNG episode and had no intention of extending. The producers then had no choice really but to go back to gates or recast the doctor yet again.
I think Muldaur also hated wearing prosthetic makeup, although she only did the one episode where she was heavily aged via latex and other makeup.
Thanks for posting that, Bester.
It was only ever a 3 day sale on Trek stuff to "celebrate" the extortionately priced Destination Star Trek London event.
Ah, I didn't know about the sale. I just checked my order and, though they sold to me at £18,:) my expected delivery is 18th - 20th October.
When you think about the number of screw-ups they managed in the first couple of seasons with the quality of the storylines and writing, the way Wesley Crusher was written, getting rid of GM, the way Dr Polaski was written which partly lead to DM leaving and having to bring back GM to correct their original error, its amazing the show managed to survive beyond the first couple of seasons but I for one am glad it did as it was a fantastic show which just got better and better by the looks of it.
Also, interesting comment about DM and Patrick Stewart apparently not getting on with each other. I'm glad I'm not the only who wondered if that was the case as Muldaur's Wikipedia page also said she had no chemistry with PS and I always wonder whether a lack of chemistry between two actors is also a sign they don't like each other? On the other hand it could just be he missed having his favourite red-head around at the time ;-):D Nonetheless, like the last poster I quoted, I also suspect DM and PS didn't like each other much.
Trek would have been a lot different without MP.
Who knew that we would still be discussing TNG? *happy sigh*. There is something about Trek...never loses its magic
I really disliked Wesley when I watched the show for the first time as a teenager . You had all these cool characters doing dangerous stuff and then there was this 'teachers pet' kid who seemed to be taken straight out of a episode of the Waltons.
Watching the series more recently I have less of an issue with him. I've come to understand that Roddenberry wanted someone to project the 'best' of what he saw would happen to mankind in the future, and who better to do that with than a kid. He obviously became a more complex and interesting character with his latter episodes but I'm not sure if Gene would have approved of the change.
Though the whole show feels fresh with this re-mastering. Saying that, this episode definitely had a dodgier restoration than the season 1 ones. The Enterprise looked a bit like a plastic toy and the planet they were orbiting was naff. I remember reading a while ago that the team doing the new effects for season 2 weren't going to be used again, so I'm glad about that.
One of the worst things about Voyager was not only that it had a lot of potential in its premise, but that now and again they actually teased what the show could have been. Stories like "Year of Hell," and "Equinox," gave us an idea of the sort of issues and moral dilemmas the crew could have been facing.
But instead we got fun Irish jaunts in the holodeck.
A lot of Voyager might have been great if Jeri Taylor didn't have her way.
What did she do?
She restricted it to a two parter. Originally co-writer Brannon Braga played with the idea of making it a much longer arc.
How on earth was she able to do that? Cast members can't control that sort of thing.
Executive Producer / writer Jeri Taylor. You're thinking of Seven of Nine Jeri Ryan
I can't help but disagree with you. A lot of shows these days are not self contained standalones, especially in sci-fi at the moment. They are very serialized arc heavy. Too arc heavy for my liking. It's one of the many reasons why i find the sci-fi television genre at it's poorest at the moment. It's exhausting and alienating to present 22 episode arc heavy episodes to a viewer (well to me), to the point where it can affect character development and time to actually breathe and allow a viewer to be able to take in what is going on.
As much as voyager had it's faults, i can only wish for a show as self contained as that was to be on the air today.
Seasons 1 & 2 had the loose arc with the temporal cold war. Season 3 was pretty arc intensive and season 4 on the whole was a series of 2, 3 or 4 episode arcs.