Options
N.IRELAND; For you britons, what is it for?
![[Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/eb0a9ab73d5c2dca4b4e3da3e6b7b0d7.svg)
[Deleted User]
Posts: 2,584 Forum Member
✭✭✭
As someone from there, I'm reminded of Anne Robinson's faux pas, as regards the Welsh. What is the point, [in a modern UK] of a seperate segment of the United Kingdom, not part of the island of Britain, for you?
I can well see the point of the Welsh and the Scots, as of the English, but is there any recognition among any of the three actual natives nations of Britain for the continuing subsidy and membership of this allegedly protestant State for a Protestant people, that is the ideal of those in Northern Ireland who insisted in 1920 in claiming to belong to your island while insisting on remaining on ours? I suspect, none.
I can well see the point of the Welsh and the Scots, as of the English, but is there any recognition among any of the three actual natives nations of Britain for the continuing subsidy and membership of this allegedly protestant State for a Protestant people, that is the ideal of those in Northern Ireland who insisted in 1920 in claiming to belong to your island while insisting on remaining on ours? I suspect, none.
0
Comments
Personally I'm not that fussed about Northern Ireland, but if the majority of the people regard themselves as British, then British they should remain.
Northern Ireland will remain British for the foreseeable future.
Northern Ireland's a beautiful place in parts and in that it is much like the rest of the UK actually - no offence but Londonderry is a dump. Cold, wet and damp with not much of a city centre to it. Nice walls though and interesting history. Parts of County Down (especially South Down) remind me very much of where I come from in terms of countryside - in fact I know Irish people that live in my village in England who has said as much.
EDIT: I suspect I am contradicting myself in that previous paragraph. Oh well.
I have absolutely no view on whether it should or should not be part of the UK. Frankly, I don't care either way.
I've been to Belfast on business trips and my family on both sides hail from Northern Ireland. I know that my Great Grandfather was from Belfast and worked at Harland and Wolfe. He was also the Worshipful Master of a Masonic Lodge at some point.
I did feel a strange affinity for Belfast the first time I visited, but I suspect this was only fuelled by my imagination and knowledge of my family history.
I've always thought our role in Ireland was obscene. I studied the history of what was euphemistically called 'the irish Question' in A Level History - and that was the inescapable conclusion any sane person would have to come to, looking at the facts.
It's sad as Cromwell was a hero to us in England - but evil for what he set in train in Ireland. It is hard to reconcile the two. (Mind you I have always believed we should be a republic, and have no monarchy - that's one thing we did get right in 1649).
We should never have been there. We should not have partitioned. If protestants of English ancestry have a problem with us giving ireland back to the Irish - then they can do what my white relatives in Rhodesia did when it became Zimbabwe. After 2 generations - they still came 'home' to England.
Mind you I also think we need to devolve Wales and Scotland properly - to the point we give them no money or subsidy of any kind and let them make their own way entirely, as we should make our's.
Having bits of countries that are on the same land mass as you is one thing - but claiming anything that is not attached to us is always dodgy.
I hate what we did in Ireland. From studying the history (a little) as a teenager onwards, I have never for one minute felt anything but shame about it. I think most English are ill educated about the history, so have uninformed opinions.
Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland purely because it wants to be. Its not Britain's choice. It choses to remain part of the UK so part of the UK it remains. Were Northern Ireland to decide to leave the UK we'd be quite happy to see it go. Its their choice however and they have chosen the UK.
What year do you think it is? lol
Stop living in the past with your imaginary oppressed minority nonsense.
Anyway if Ireland hadn't been partitioned we'd all probably be speaking German right now!
Surely, when talking about the wishes of the people of the island of Ireland regarding a united Ireland, then to be truly 'democratic', ALL the people who live on that island should have an equal say in the matter?
Only taking into account the wishes of the majority of the people who live in the north is not democratic,
OR are we saying that the population of the republic should have no say at all on the issue of uniting their country with another?
That's like saying the UK should have a say in the affairs of France. The south is a seperate country. There's an international border between the two.
Surely, when talking about the wishes of the people of the archipelago of the British Isles regarding a united British Isles, then to be truly 'democratic', ALL the people who live in that archipelago should have an equal say in the matter?
Only taking into account the wishes of the majority of the people who live on Ireland is not democratic.
OR are we saying that the population of Ireland should have no say at all on the issue of uniting their country with another?
Basically what you're saying is very wrong.
According to your argument China could decide it wants to own Japan then the two would have to vote on it- 1 billion Chinese say yes, 100 million Japanese say no. Hello Greater China.
Ireland has been a political mess for more than a hundred years and it's reached a situation of relative stability. The people of NI aren't demanding anything and the republicans have (for the most part) given up trying to "liberate" NI.
What's it matter if the people of NI are a 60 minute boat ride away from mainland England?
They pay their taxes and live their lives. They're not a burden to anybody so why try to change anything?
Sorry? - what utter nonsense! So you are saying Hitler would have won the war if there had been a united Ireland really?
Its a fact of life now but Northern Ireland is a highly artificial country designed to deliver a Protestant majority when it was created in 1921.
Its also called 'Ulster' - but one third of this ancient province (Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan) is actually in the Irish Republic. The northern most part of the island of Ireland is also in the Republic - so its neither really Northern Ireland or Ulster. Its just a gerrymandered state - but its here to stay.
Didn't Germans occupy Southern Ireland in WW2?
Perhaps the idea is that if Ireland had been unified then Germany could have staged some pretty big assaults on the UK from there?
The consequences could have been pretty far reaching when you think about it.
Ireland would have made a perfect base to interdict atlantic convoys and the battle of Britain might have turned out a lot differently if German planes based in Ireland could have attacked England along with planed from over the channel.
It's impossible to say whether the strategic advantage gained by a major base of op's in Ireland would have altered the outcome of the war but it's not something to be dismissed lightly.
No! The Irish Free State remained neutral throughout "The Emergency".
See here.
I misused the word "occupy".
I was sure I'd heard stories about german U-boats and ships refuelling in Ireland though.
Even so, I guess it's possible that an independant Ireland might have been an easier target for German occupation if there were no ties to Britain.
What history book told you that?.
The Republic stayed neutral throughout WW2, and while there were Irish who were Nazi sympathisers, the same can be said of the UK in general.
Anyway, to the OP's post.
What you personally think of NI's place in the UK is irrelevant, as it is up to the people of NI to decide their own destiny. IF, eventually they wish to join in a united Ireland, that is THEIR choice.
As for Hippy Guy's fantasist approach, the people of the Republic would have a say whether or not they wished to merge with NI, but only AFTER the people of NI had decided to do so.
Not at all since whether NI joins the RoI is completely irrelevant to NI leaving the UK.
REALLY??
So, firstly I will ignore the fact that the north & south of Ireland occupy the same island and that it's a man made border, unlike the UK & France.
ARE you saying that IF there was a popular and historic call for the UK & France to unite as one nation, then, only the votes and wishes of ONE of the 2 nations involved should decide the outcome?
"sorry UK, but the majority of the French want us to become one nation, and YOU don't get a say in the matter"
Ireland was a united nation on one island until quite recently in historical terms,
the UK & France dont occupy the same land mass and have different languages and cultures,
a better analogy would be scotland, if Scotland wasn't a part of the UK, would it be ok then if ONLY the scots had the right to choose to join or not, and the English would just have to agree to whatever Scotland decided?
:cool:
NO, the republic was nutral in WW2, although Churchill did offer to open talks on a united Ireland AFTER the war was over, IF the republic would allow Britain to use some of it's Atlantic ports, the republic refused, prefering to maintain it's neutrality,
Although MANY thousands of southern Irish men joined the British armed forces to fight Hitler.
it's also true that the IRA contacted Hitler and offered their 'help' in the fight against Britain, Hitler sent a high ranking officer to 'negotiate' with the IRA to see if they would be of any use, He was.... lets say... less than impressed, he thought they were a bunch of disorganised amateurs, and would have been a liability,
it's also true that during the bitz the IRA planted bombs in London and elswhere in the UK,
:cool:
Northern Ireland is a beautiful place, both British and Irish at the same time.
I am English.
My husband calls himself British.
My children call themselves Irish.
Thankfully most of us who live here have moved on from the dark days of the troubles ..... the OP is obviously one of those who have not.
Button. I wrote the opening post as neutral, asking only the views of mainland Britain dwellers. I didn't offer a view of my own, but as a nationalist/catholic, I haven't got a problem with the connection of NI to Britain in itself, just with the way it was governed [if that's the word for it] between Partition and the late 1960s. The corrupt administration at Stormont made an instability at some point, inevitable, but the failure of the IRA campaign in the late 1950s proves there was no desire to end the link. Paisley, for his own selfish interest sought to convince his own fellow Protestant voters that the civil rights campaign WAS about a United Ireland,while knowing it was not. He wanted NI to be a Protestant and Unionist ruled entity only , and gave the Provos the ammunition they needed to destabilise it. The rest is history.
Yes. That's exaclty what should happen. If France votes to unite with Britain but Britain votes no on the issue then there's no agreement, France's votes don't just overwrite those of Britain and mean it happens.
To use geography- how about France and Luxembourg? Thats a pretty artificial border. If just a few percent of the French people turn out to vote yes on uniting the two they can easily out vote the poor Luxembourgers. Should they therefore be allowed to just march in and take over the land of a bunch of people who want to be free?
Obviously the republic of Ireland should get a choice on unification but this should be after and seperate to the north deciding they want unification. Not, as you were suggesting, as part of one big pooled whole of the island vote.
I understand much of what you're saying but the fact that countries occupy the same landmass is irrelevant. Spain and Portugal occupy the same landmass. France and Bulgaria are part of the same landmass. The USA, Canada and Mexico are part of the same landmass.
I'm sure you wouldn't suggest they should all become part of one larger country because they're part of the same landmass so while i understand most of your point, that part at least doesn't appear relevant.
That's true of course and especially so as NI only exists because of the refusal of the Unionist party to accept the will of the govt in London, [which they claim to be loyal to], in 1920, which was Home Rule. If the Republic had not been created, NI would never have been in existence. I suspect that a referendum held in the South at any point in the future would result in a big NO to having us joining up with them.
Would we really ?