Has anyone successfully returned a 9200T for a refund?

[Deleted User] · 20/02/06 - 15:39

Due to losing all my recordings this weekend and the USB file transfer bug, I’m thinking of returning my 9200T for a refund. Has anyone successfully done this and if so, which retailer did you purchase it from.

[Deleted User] · 20/02/06 - 16:20

John Lewis refunded on mine without question

[Deleted User] · 26/02/06 - 08:51

I've contacted DABS for a refund, which should be interesting

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 18:51

david walter wrote:

John Lewis refunded on mine without question

Was that within 30 days of purchase?

Here’s my 3rd email to Dabs, they treated the first two as if I wanted the thing repaired; if Humax had a fix by now I wouldn’t be asking for a refund!

<<Please read my previous email. I'm not asking for you to replace the product or return it to the manufacturers to be repaired. The product has design flaws which the manufacturer has not been able to resolve 4 months after the product was released. So there is no point in returning it to the manufacturer as they can only replace it with another similarly flawed item.

I feel that since the product has now lost all recordings and I have waited in vain for 4 months for other flaws to be resolved, that now is the time to seek a refund. I can't rely on the product to perform its functions reliably, or on the manufacturer to resolve them in a timely manner, so I am left with a product that I can't use. Do you see my point? I wish to receive a refund so that I can purchase a similar product from a different manufacturer.>>

Here’s the reply from DABs:

<<Thanks for your email with regard to your request for refund or replacement of an item purchased from dabs.com.

Whilst we're sorry to hear that you're experiencing problems with goods you've purchased from dabs.com, may we respectfully state that legally, you are not entitled to a refund or a replacement once a "reasonable time" has elapsed. This is classed as 28 days from receipt of the goods.

However, you are entitled to a warranty repair. Automatic replacement of faulty goods outside of this period may be offered in some circumstances depending on the details of each individual case, but it is not the law.

As a business, dabs.com is given the opportunity to examine returned goods and even seek a second opinion for the rectification of the fault (referring to the manufacturer). The warranty repair process can take up to 6 weeks from our receipt of the goods. After 6 weeks, you may have a claim for a replacement unit, but not before that.

Further explanation of these points can be found within the Sale of Goods Act sections 14, 35 and 59, all of which Trading Standards should be well aware of.

We do empathise with your situation and apologise for the inconvenience this issue may cause. We will of course, keep you up to date with the progress of this returns issue.>>

Does this mean that if you build a product that scrapes by the 30 day period, but flaws start appearing after that point, that your warranty is in effect worthless?

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 19:16

Warranty is promise against defects appearing with the product and with the 9200T Humax it has a 2 years period - so can be returned to them for repairs.

You should be able to talk to Humax directly to explain your problems and that you wish to get a refund for your purchase, and you should ask them how to go about it.

To be able to return it to the seller (in this case Dabs) you have to abide by their purchasing terms.

But goods are sold subject to 'fit for purpose' and hence you can argue with Dabs that the 9200T is not fit for its purpose and that you wish for a refund.

Methinks. Certainly this would be the line I will take when I lose all my recordings...

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 19:32

son_t wrote:

You should be able to talk to Humax directly to explain your problems and that you wish to get a refund for your purchase, and you should ask them how to go about it.

To be able to return it to the seller (in this case Dabs) you have to abide by their purchasing terms.

But goods are sold subject to 'fit for purpose' and hence you can argue with Dabs that the 9200T is not fit for its purpose and that you wish for a refund.

I spoke with Humax today and they are confident that both issues that I raised will be fixed, with priority obviously going to the disappearing libraries.

I’m wondering how long I am obliged to give Humax to fix these problems. They have been informed of the USB transfer bug my myself and others since virtually day one, with no fix forthcoming. It doesn’t inspire confidence in me.

Currently, the product does not function as described without problems and as you say is not ‘fit for the purpose’ that it was designed for. I know Dabs are piggy in the middle here, and I’m going to seek advice on where I stand with this before pursuing it further. I can almost hear the hounds of eBay calling me…..

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 19:43

Yes I (we?) understand...

You could request from Humax for the (beta) software update now as you are desperate... (do you want the box fixed or do you just want to wish it away?) [I would replace mine with a Toppy - but that is just as problematic when it comes to the big bugs. So I will live with the Hummy until the update - April?]

Looks like there is only one 9200T on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Humax-PVR-9200T_W0QQitemZ5870788694QQcategoryZ96964QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) and it is going at more than retail price...

I think you are in with a good chance of sell yours if you get it in now... The 2 years warranty is also transferable so that would be a good selling point...

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 20:41

I agree with above , you should go along with the 'not fit for the purpose ' , they know the problems and are just being a bitch , contact trading standards and also one of those guys in the newspapers/magazines for advice (and bad publicity) .

From the PCW magazine ' In England and Wales ,the retailer must prove that faults found within six months of purchase are not inherent'

more info at www.oft.gov.uk/consumer

keep us informed

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 22:31

crow_smiling wrote:

Does this mean that if you build a product that scrapes by the 30 day period, but flaws start appearing after that point, that your warranty is in effect worthless?

In essence yes! You'll find all on-line sellers do this. I had the exact same blurb from microdirect, when an LCD panel I bought developed a fault on day 32 of purchase. They only offered to repair it. Had to accept a refurbished replacement from the manufacture in the end.

Contacting Trading Standards was a waste of time. There is, in effect, no legal time period outside the distance selling rule of 7 days and the arbitruary 30-day rule. You can argue "fit for purpose" but be prepared to take legal action.

If you paid by credit card you may be best to contact them and explain your position, that you require a refund because the item is "not fit for purpose".

[Deleted User] · 27/02/06 - 23:00

its simple. Dabs say you are entitled to a warranty repair. It says 5.1 surround sound on the box. You now have a 5.1 surround sound system in which to enjoy 5.1 surround sound from the Humax now connected to it. This does not work however. You are entitled to a warranty repair from Dabs. I bet you any money that Dabs will not be able to offer you a repair or a replacement with a fully working unit as specified with 5.1 surround sound. They wont have much choice after that. Similarly, it says USB2, but when you tried to download recorded files recently, you found the machine will only transfer recordings at the slow speed of USB1. No amount of warranty or repair from Dabs will be able to finally pair you with a USB2 speed device. You can speed up the process by checking this out with the manufacturer first, and pass the details on to Dabs, where they can make their own checks with the manufacturer. I used to rate Dabs but they have changed - play them at their own silly game as its the only thing they undertand.

You can always keep the machine for a few months. We all know that there are software releases in the next few months to fix bugs and its no different a practice as other PVR makers. At least we have some details to work with even though they have some delays currently. If not, it may be an opportunity to try another PVR. You can always go back to the Humax if any doesnt suit you and have nothing to loose. Later on in the year people will be buying the next PVR release with (low and behold) bugs and after a few months reverting to another PVR seen as a 'mature' 9200t, as all the other PVRs are seen as today.

[Deleted User] · 28/02/06 - 08:31

Caoimhghin wrote:

I had the exact same blurb from microdirect, when an LCD panel I bought developed a fault on day 32 of purchase. They only offered to repair it. Had to accept a refurbished replacement from the manufacture in the end.

That’s particularly annoying when you buy a monitor with a 3 year warranty. Personally, I don’t mind provided that the refurbished product is in good condition. I don’t expect a new replacement if a product packs in 11 months into a 12 month warranty period. If that was normal practice the extra cost would be passed on to consumers I suspect.

But this is really off topic as the Humax hasn’t developed a fault so much as has a design flaw.

Caoimhghin wrote:

If you paid by credit card you may be best to contact them and explain your position, that you require a refund because the item is "not fit for purpose".

Thanks, that’s a good idea, I forget about the side benefits of paying by credit card, which I did.

marcdavis wrote:

its simple. Dabs say you are entitled to a warranty repair. It says 5.1 surround sound on the box. You now have a 5.1 surround sound system in which to enjoy 5.1 surround sound from the Humax now connected to it. This does not work however. You are entitled to a warranty repair from Dabs. I bet you any money that Dabs will not be able to offer you a repair or a replacement with a fully working unit as specified with 5.1 surround sound. They wont have much choice after that. Similarly, it says USB2, but when you tried to download recorded files recently, you found the machine will only transfer recordings at the slow speed of USB1. No amount of warranty or repair from Dabs will be able to finally pair you with a USB2 speed device.

If Humax release a PVR that is (hopefully) future proofed by supporting Dolby Digital 5.1 via a digital output, I can’t exactly blame Humax because current broadcasts are not encoded with DD5.1.

If a product is labelled as supporting USB2, this does not imply that it has a fast transfer rate, merely that it supports the USB2 specification. There is much confusion over what the USB2 specification means in real terms. There are two flavours of USB2; they are called something like Hi-speed and Full-speed. One of them gives the same maximum transfer rate as USB1 (12 Mbps I think); the other gives the much higher (theoretical) maximum transfer rate of 480 Mbps, if my memory is correct.
So I can’t see that Humax are at fault for labelling the device as being USB2 compatible, just because it has a slow transfer rate.

marcdavis wrote:

You can always keep the machine for a few months. We all know that there are software releases in the next few months to fix bugs and its no different a practice as other PVR makers. At least we have some details to work with even though they have some delays currently. If not, it may be an opportunity to try another PVR. You can always go back to the Humax if any doesnt suit you and have nothing to loose. Later on in the year people will be buying the next PVR release with (low and behold) bugs and after a few months reverting to another PVR seen as a 'mature' 9200t, as all the other PVRs are seen as today.

There’s the crux of the dilemma really. Am I better of with the bird I have in hand, so to speak? The only alternative seems to be the Topfield which I feel wary about due to needing to run TAPS to bring the spec up to scratch. Maybe I’ll go back to listening to radio!

[Deleted User] · 28/02/06 - 08:54

crow_smiling wrote:

That’s particularly annoying when you buy a monitor with a 3 year warranty. Personally, I don’t mind provided that the refurbished product is in good condition. I don’t expect a new replacement if a product packs in 11 months into a 12 month warranty period. If that was normal practice the extra cost would be passed on to consumers I suspect.

But this is really off topic as the Humax hasn’t developed a fault so much as has a design flaw.

Thanks, that’s a good idea, I forget about the side benefits of paying by credit card, which I did.

If Humax release a PVR that is (hopefully) future proofed by supporting Dolby Digital 5.1 via a digital output, I can’t exactly blame Humax because current broadcasts are not encoded with DD5.1.

If a product is labelled as supporting USB2, this does not imply that it has a fast transfer rate, merely that it supports the USB2 specification. There is much confusion over what the USB2 specification means in real terms. There are two flavours of USB2; they are called something like Hi-speed and Full-speed. One of them gives the same maximum transfer rate as USB1 (12 Mbps I think); the other gives the much higher (theoretical) maximum transfer rate of 480 Mbps, if my memory is correct.
So I can’t see that Humax are at fault for labelling the device as being USB2 compatible, just because it has a slow transfer rate.

There’s the crux of the dilemma really. Am I better of with the bird I have in hand, so to speak? The only alternative seems to be the Topfield which I feel wary about due to needing to run TAPS to bring the spec up to scratch. Maybe I’ll go back to listening to radio!

Yes agreed wholeheartedly. However, the issue I am trying to bring out through those two identified reasons was it is and has been for many people misleading. Those in the know about UK dtt realise the whole 5.1 thing on the box is wrong - it cant possibly work - and there arent even any future plans for 5.1 available. The issue about the USB2 is also misleading. Genuinly misleading, which accounts for the number of people on the topfield and Humax genuinly disapointed to find it is only operating at no higher than USB1. These are not reasons to take the machine back in my mind and its not necessarily Humax's fault. The fact that you acknowledge there is much confusion over the USB2 labelling issue is enough to prove the point here. It is merely a means to play Dabs in a way everybody can move on efficiently. My fear for you is Dabs will receive your machine,, check with Humax about the problem you had, and Humax will acknowledge the fault and say they are currently in the process of working on a fix - which they are. What Dabs will do is come back to you and say this is a fault that will be fixed in a software update soon - I fear they may not give you your money back. I remember some people warning about buying this PVR from Dabs in October - I wasnt one of them. But it is true it is a shame the processes at Dabs are not customer orientated enough.

[Deleted User] · 28/02/06 - 14:31

A further reply from Dabs:

<< If the item is not repaired within 6 weeks a refund will be issued.>>

marcdavis wrote:

Those in the know about UK dtt realise the whole 5.1 thing on the box is wrong - it cant possibly work - and there arent even any future plans for 5.1 available. The issue about the USB2 is also misleading. Genuinly misleading, which accounts for the number of people on the topfield and Humax genuinly disapointed to find it is only operating at no higher than USB1. These are not reasons to take the machine back in my mind and its not necessarily Humax's fault. The fact that you acknowledge there is much confusion over the USB2 labelling issue is enough to prove the point here. It is merely a means to play Dabs in a way everybody can move on efficiently.

I feel that I have a strong case as it is and that by mentioning the Dolby Digital and USB2 features I can only weaken my case.

For me the USB ‘issue’ is purely down to the USB Forums specification and Humax are not at fault here. The device is USB2 compatible and seemingly doesn’t work well with USB1 connections. Manufacturers rarely choose to advertise the weaker areas of a product, in this case the slow USB transfer rate. The Topfield isn’t that much faster anyway. At the end of the day, if they don’t quote a transfer rate, then you can’t really use this as an argument; you’ll get laughed out of court so to speak.

If the USB Forum specifies that a device needs to be categorized as being either Hi or Low speed, then you could say that Humax are negligent in not showing which it is. But even then, people who are aware of the USB2 specification would realise that the device hadn’t been fully labelled and would proceed with caution. I should have been a bloody lawyer

Which reminds me:

What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

A good start.

[Deleted User] · 28/02/06 - 15:00

I think the two points: 5.1 channel sound and USB2 speed are slightly too technical (although Dabs should be able to understand and sympathise as they are resellers of computer equipment) and if you do bring up these points as arguments for a refund, then you might just end up arguing over technicalities... Look again at the Humax website and about the 9200T. Does Humax still claim and market these features to deceive buyers..?

You should concentrate on the 'fit for purpose' argument.

1. You bought a PVR to record programmes. The 9200T keeps missing programmes you set to record hence does not do what it is sold to do.
2. You bought a hard disk recorder to store recorded programmes. The 9200T keeps playing up which causes the lost of your recordings. It does not store your programmes as it claims (100Hrs worth!)
3. You bought a FREEVIEW PVR to watch Freeview channels. The 9200T is unstable a keeps locking up so that you can't watch TV. It does not work as a Freeview STB as it claims (let alone allow you to record 2 channels while watching a third!)

Hope this helps.

[Deleted User] · 01/03/06 - 08:47

Well I tried to return mine to Bennetts in Chelmsford, Essex the other week, due to it crashing on the Olympic Games. I also mentioned the Guide being slow to load.

Basically they put it on test for an hour and half, said they couldn't find anythign wrong with it.

Therefore it would seem I am stuck with it. What can I do? I forgot to mention the USB problems but that might give me an edge, do you think guys? I hate these shops' customer service, it seems to be non-existent when a product they've sold you is found faulty.

Jon

[Deleted User] · 01/03/06 - 09:19

DJjay18 wrote:

Well I tried to return mine to Bennetts in Chelmsford, Essex the other week, due to it crashing on the Olympic Games. I also mentioned the Guide being slow to load.

Basically they put it on test for an hour and half, said they couldn't find anythign wrong with it.

Therefore it would seem I am stuck with it. What can I do? I forgot to mention the USB problems but that might give me an edge, do you think guys? I hate these shops' customer service, it seems to be non-existent when a product they've sold you is found faulty.

Jon

I could be a problem because these lockup reports suggest they dont happen everywhere or everyone, they may have the machine for a few days and tell you the same thing. I think a good idea is to explain the situation with Humax and ask for their help with the retailer. Humax will understand the nature of the problem with lockups and can offer some sort of confirmation that the lockups happen to random users at random times, should the retailer wish to validate your claim.

[Deleted User] · 01/03/06 - 10:17

DJjay18 wrote:

Well I tried to return mine to Bennetts in Chelmsford, Essex the other week, due to it crashing on the Olympic Games. I also mentioned the Guide being slow to load.

Basically they put it on test for an hour and half, said they couldn't find anythign wrong with it.

Therefore it would seem I am stuck with it. What can I do?

If you have a video camera you could try making a video of it all locked up, multiple times, also showing you trying to use the remote & the buttons on the box itself. Then dump it back at Bennets with a print out from various threads on the bugs from here.

davefevs · 07/03/06 - 12:53

It's a real shame that a number of online companies take this stance.

From what I've read you stated that although you wanted a refund, you were prepared to put it towards another PVR sold by them.

Surely DABs can see the the benefits of satisfying your problem, and that you will probably think positively as a result, and then buy more from them. Surely DABs have a relationship with Humax (the supplier to them) to help them ascertain whether if they refund to you, what they'll get back from Humax???

I've bought from DABs over the years, but haven't recently, as I had problems returning a product.

As for John Lewis, they are spot on with returns.

Incidentally, I took an 8 month old digital camera back to Argos yesterday without any problems at all. Got my refund without question.

I'd expected them to send it for repair first of all!!

[Deleted User] · 09/03/06 - 09:10

I bought my 9200 from Comet online - they have a 7 day 'no quibble' refund policy for items bought over the web. I took mine back (I was testing it as a Sky+ replacement ). The assistant queried it, but I took with me a print out of the webpage with the relevant info. He did a quick check with the manager and then gave me the refund.
Worth checking Comet out if you think you might want to return it (or you just fancy testing it for a few days!!)

[Deleted User] · 09/03/06 - 13:44

son_t wrote:

You should concentrate on the 'fit for purpose' argument.

If you paid by credit card, then I have found the following gets retailers attention.

'Clearly as this item is not fit for the purpose it was supplied, this qualifies as a breach of contract under sale of goods legislation, so please can you refund me for this item in full without further delay. If you are unwilling to refund this in full within 14 days, I will contact my credit card company and request a chargeback under Section 75 of the consumer credit act which I am confident they will readily agree to'

Chargeback means the credit card company simply take the money back from the retailer and refund you the full cost of the item, plus any additional costs you have suffered due to 'misrepresentation' If you phone your credit card company and explain you would like them to organise a 'chargeback' they will take details over the phone, and normally just require a letter or paper form explaining why with your signature, and they will do this without question - its not their money, so they don't generally care.

Redress under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 75 : if you paid at least partially by credit card

Credit card companies (all subject to the UK's Consumer Credit Act 1974) have a duty of care under section 75 of that act to assist consumers who have demonstrably suffered from misrepresentation or failure on the part of the 'merchant' to deliver goods and services.

Effectively this covers any breach of contract covered under the Sale of goods act or supply of goods and services act.

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Has anyone successfully returned a 9200T for a refund?

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