They should have tried, one way or another to keep it going, by employing a fresh tream of writers, producers and directors. Also, a new costume designer too.
June Hudson was good, but not as good as some people can be. I believe she designed Colin's 'coat of many colours' in early 1984.
And she fought against it as hard as she possibly could. JNT told her to create something that defies taste - and naturally she struggled, just like any competent designer would, to ignore her basic instincts and to not include some kind of flair. JNT rejected it again and again and kept telling her to have no sense of style whatsoever, and as a bit of a frustrated half-joke she replied "what, you mean like this?" and just splattered random colours and designs at the costume. This rebounded when JNT approved it and poor June was horrified.
And she fought against it as hard as she possibly could. JNT told her to create something that defies taste - and naturally she struggled, just like any competent designer would, to ignore her basic instincts and to not include some kind of flair. JNT rejected it again and again and kept telling her to have no sense of style whatsoever, and as a bit of a frustrated half-joke she replied "what, you mean like this?" and just splattered random colours and designs at the costume. This rebounded when JNT approved it and poor June was horrified.
I like the scene in The Twin Dillemma when the Doctor, having just put on his 'coat of many colours', proceeds to go to the console room and Peri says, "You can't go out, dressed like that." Looking at her, puzzled, the Doctor replies, "And why ever not?"
I like that.
This is a 55 minute documentary about Colin Baker's tenure, and I believe it is on the Twin Dilemma DVD release.
It features the scene with Colin changing out of Peter's Cricket costume, to put on that colourful coat. I like to see this now and again. It's an enjoyable watch. It mentions Michael Grade's decision to put Dr Who on a hiatious. It also mentions JNT and talks about some of the things he tried to do to make Colin's time a good one.
I like the scene in The Twin Dillemma when the Doctor, having just put on his 'coat of many colours', proceeds to go to the console room and Peri says, "You can't go out, dressed like that." The Doctor replies, "And why ever not?"
I like that.
Yeah, I do admire the boldness and ambition of The Twin Dilemma. If you watch it out of context it's actually not really that bad, just a bit out of sorts. Colin does a great job with what he's given.
The problem is that it follows on from Androzani, and from that point of view the whole story is just a constant insult to Peter and all his fans - especially considering that Androzani was such an exceptional send-off. I think Twin Dilemma was the right idea but at the wrong time - typical of JNT, really.
Yeah, I do admire the boldness and ambition of The Twin Dilemma. If you watch it out of context it's actually not really that bad, just a bit out of sorts. Colin does a great job with what he's given.
The problem is that it follows on from Androzani, and from that point of view the whole story is just a constant insult to Peter and all his fans - especially considering that Androzani was such an exceptional send-off. I think Twin Dilemma was the right idea but at the wrong time - typical of JNT, really.
I think that JNT should have got The Twin Dilemma as the first story of the next season after Peter left. Also, turn TTD into 2, 45 minute episodes. It feels wrong to me that it hangs on to the end of Peter's tenure.
JNT did say in a 1994 interview that he wanted CB's Doctor to be shown to fans properly at the end of PD's tenure and not wait for over ten months until a new season starts. He wanted fans to be given a 'taster' of what the 'new' Doctor is like as a person, so fans weren't upset to have to wait.
1) used old reliable writers that knew Doctor Who and how to write for it and not insist on using inexperienced novices that often couldn't write for shit.
2) have got much better directors that again knew how to do the genre. Warriors of the Deeps biggest downfall is awful directing.
3) not make it so bloody eighties. The ridiculous glam rock android in The Visitation manages to date a story set in 17th Century. No question marks and no technicolour dreamcoat.
4) put story quality and the making of quality before anything and everything else. Stuff bugging off on a jolly for a week in America to do conventions in the middle of a story's production.
5) left much earlier.
The BBC should have...
1) kept the portion of Executive Producer, or have put somebody in a position of authority to rein JNT in.
2) took a much more active roll when the series started to flounder.
1) used old reliable writers that knew Doctor Who and how to write for it and not insist on using inexperienced novices that often couldn't write for shit.
2) have got much better directors that again knew how to do the genre. Warriors of the Deeps biggest downfall is awful directing.
3) not make it so bloody eighties. The ridiculous glam rock android in The Visitation manages to date a story set in 17th Century. No question marks and no technicolour dreamcoat.
4) put story quality and the making of quality before anything and everything else. Stuff bugging off on a jolly for a week in America to do conventions in the middle of a story's production.
5) left much earlier.
The BBC should have...
1) kept the portion of Executive Producer, or have put somebody in a position of authority to rein JNT in.
2) took a much more active roll when the series started to flounder.
3) fired John Nathan-Turner.
So John Nathan-Turner wasn't that good as producer, then?
I can appreciate the difficult position JNT was in - he wanted out, but the Beeb didn't want him anywhere else [understandably, unfortunately] but to be honest the only thing that would have saved the show was a complete change of regime.
Even during some of the later Five serials [looking at YOU, Warriors Of The Deep], the show just had a general air of something that very few people outside of the actors themselves - God bless Colin - gave a toss about. The budget was crap in the 60s and 70s too, but at least they tried, and they made magic. The 80s stuff just looked cheap. The Myrka still had wet paint on it when it was filmed. The Sontaran costumes in The Two Doctors were risibly bad - compare with their first appearance a over a decade before - the mask moved, the costume fit, Kevin Lindsay made a lot of effort to make Linx look like a living creature (with the fantastically creepy lip-licking)... by The Two Doctors the masks barely moved, the costume was wobbly, the neck-piece of the armour was loose and flapping around not connected to anyone... there was just a general air of not giving even half a toss about the show, it was just something that was thrown out.
There was a sense of "It's only Doctor Who" when it came to the attempts to put the show on the screen. And that's what killed it.
I'm not sure if that's because JNT wanted out, the BBC wanted rid, the public interest had wained, or just a general sense of ennui due to the show running every year for over two decades - though I suspect that it was a combination of all of those things - but when those involved in putting the show on screen don't care, all the acting in the world won't save a production.
What they needed was not a team who would say "It's only Doctor Who", but a team who were enthusiastic, who would look at a tiny budget as a challenge, not an excuse, who would say "It's Doctor Who!!" and actually love the damn show.
You can see this seep in to things as the McCoy era carries on. The enthusiasm of Cartmel, Aaronovitch et al really elevates the whole show - even JNT seems to have rediscovered his love for the show in the last two years. The budget in Survival or Fenric is probably much lower than in The Two Doctors or Timelash, but they look leagues better because there's some damn effort been put in.
But it was too little, too late.
The show needed somebody other than Colin to care about it, basically. And for a wide variety of reasons - not least of which probably just being that, to be honest, it had run its course - it didn't get that.
Cancellation in 89 is still painful, because the show was on the up, and you were left feeling that we were robbed of more good stories.
It's hard to feel too bitter over the cancellation in 85, though. It's hard to claim that it wasn't deserved.
Some interesting reading here, I've certainly learnt a bit!
I didn't realise JNT wanted out, for instance, that does explain quite a lot I guess.
On a separate note I really admire Colin Baker for his enthusiasm about the show. I understand he had a rough time while he was there, and he was going through a personal crisis at the start of his tenure but still he got on with it and he seems to have a lot of time for the fans. Fair play to the bloke, he deserves a medal.
Some interesting reading here, I've certainly learnt a bit!
I didn't realise JNT wanted out, for instance, that does explain quite a lot I guess.
On a separate note I really admire Colin Baker for his enthusiasm about the show. I understand he had a rough time while he was there, and he was going through a personal crisis at the start of his tenure but still he got on with it and he seems to have a lot of time for the fans. Fair play to the bloke, he deserves a medal.
I don't think anyone can realistically question Colin's part in events, or bring his acting ability into the debate. He had boundless enthusiasm for the show and for his role until the bitter end. He didn't have any hard feelings after the hiatus and as the face of the show, kept it going through a dark period.
And sadly, this meant that he was an easy fall guy and he ended up as the one person who was publicly fired and had his television career and professional reputation ruined during that time. So unjust, poor Colin.
Cancellation in 89 is still painful, because the show was on the up, and you were left feeling that we were robbed of more good stories.
It's hard to feel too bitter over the cancellation in 85, though. It's hard to claim that it wasn't deserved.
I do feel bitter with Michael Grade over the 1985 hiatus, yes. Because what he did, putting the show on hold for 18 months, robbed the fans of the chance to see the Ice Warriors for the fourth time in DW history. Also, the Celestial Totymaker would have come back, rumoured to have been played by the original actor.
I still feel bitter with Michael Grade over the 1985 hiatus, because what he did, putting the show on hold for 18 months, robbed the fans of the chance to see the Ice Warriors for the fourth time in DW history. Also, the Celestial Totymaker would have come back, rumoured to have been played by the original actor.
And that's not even getting into the fact that Michael Grade jumped into bed with Colin Baker's ex-wife at the first opportunity. It all got way too personal and motivated by people's own interest.
That would have been nice, yes, but no. It couldn't happen.
He should have stepped down from his role as Director General of the BBC when Peter Davison left in March 1984. Then we may have had Doctor Who go into the 1990s.
A) MG was controller of BBC1, not DG of the BBC.
He didn't arrive at the BBC (from LWT) until later in 1984, so he can't have stepped down from any role at the BBC in March 1984 as he wasn't working there at the time.
He didn't arrive at the BBC (from LWT) until later in 1984, so he can't have stepped down from any role at the BBC in March 1984 as he wasn't working there at the time.
Sorry, I had my wires crossed. I thought when he was interviewed on Room 101 back around 2002, he said that he was DG of the BBC. I shall remember that he was controller of the BBC.
This is a clip of him on Room 101, from the early noughties, putting DW into Room 101. If you look, you will see that he is wearing Red socks. Rather apropriate for a man like him, don't you think?
Anyway on another note. Apparently, at the end of Revelation of the Daleks, when CB's Doctor said to Peri, "Alright. I'll take you to...", he would have said Blackpool. That would have been where the Doctor and Peri had gone to in the first episode of the next story in 1986. But because of MG, this didn't happen and we got the rather drab, mediocre 'TOAT' instead.
Sorry, I had my wires crossed. I thought when he was interviewed on Room 101 back around 2002, he said that he was DG of the BBC. I shall remember that he was controller of the BBC.
Anyway on another note. Apparently, at the end of Revelation of the Daleks, when CB's Doctor said to Peri, "Alright. I'll take you to...", he would have said Blackpool. That would have been where the Doctor and Peri had gone to in the first episode of the next story in 1986. But because of MG, this didn't happen and we got the rather drab, mediocre 'TOAT' instead.
To be fair, we may have dodged a bullet there. I like Delta and the Bannermen but the holiday camp setting means it's a really obviously ultra low budget story - the whole thing looks amateur. It undermines everything and comes off rather embarrassing.
I don't think anyone can realistically question Colin's part in events, or bring his acting ability into the debate. He had boundless enthusiasm for the show and for his role until the bitter end. He didn't have any hard feelings after the hiatus and as the face of the show, kept it going through a dark period.
And sadly, this meant that he was an easy fall guy and he ended up as the one person who was publicly fired and had his television career and professional reputation ruined during that time. So unjust, poor Colin.
Absolutely. Grade and Jonathan Powell couldn't abide the show and Colin was just there at the wrong time. If senior management have no interest in, or worse, actively dislike a show, you're stuffed. It wasn't about ratings, which were pretty healthy for Season 22.
Great bloke. Met him during the hiatus as a cynical teen and he was lovely even though I was quite shy. If I met him now, I'd just shake his hand and say "Cheers, Colin."
This is a clip of him on Room 101, from the early noughties, putting DW into Room 101. If you look, you will see that he is wearing Red socks. Rather apropriate for a man like him, don't you think?
Doesn't give a very balanced look at the classic era does it? Clearly the worst bits from the series have been cherry picked to suit an agenda.
A good example of how low Doctor Who sunk before the recommission. In the 90s the TV movie and the New Adventures kept things going but the franchise was close to death by the time RTD and Lorraine Heggessey came along. The BBC lavish all sorts of attention on Doctor Who now but never acknowledge that they treated it like something rotten on the bottom of their shoe as little as 10-12 years ago.
Doctor Who would have been okay if the BBC hadn't been intent on running it into the ground. If the series had been regarded as an asset, they would have done in 1984 what they did in 2004, bringing in a producer with a track record of success that good directors and writers would want to work with. J-NT seemed to have been alienating them left, right and centre.
So John Nathan-Turner wasn't that good as producer, then?
Not in my humble opinion no. All Who producers (and later, executives) have made bad decisions, JNT just continually made more of them. He also wasn't very professional, and I don't just mean in the like of his immature falling out with Eric Saward (who was totally right about John's insistence on not hiring experienced writers). The likes of Barry Letts and Steven Moffat would not bugger of to US conventions in the middle of story production and leave their poor script editors to do all the leg work back home.
It's hard to feel too bitter over the cancellation in 85, though. It's hard to claim that it wasn't deserved.
I'll try
The ratings weren't bad, averaging around 7-8 million which equaled Peter Davison's final two series and was greater than Tom's final series. There simply wasn't a reason to cancel the show in 1985 other than they just didn't like it.
And it was that cancellation that really killed the show. Ratings fell through the floor after that first cancellation and never recovered.
Thanks for the link to Trials and Tribulations - had never seen it. I am very interested in the behind the scenes stories of Doctor Who.
The discussion about Colin being too large a presence to transfer to the small screen is interesting, and especially the part where they question the decision to cast and actor based on his party antics. Quite true that it is a questionable reason to give such an important role for such a trivial reason.
I get the impression that stories such as The Happiness Patrol and Paradise Towers were supposed to be biting social satire. Unfortunately, they ended up looking like crap pantomimes.
It's like a bunch of idealistic kids were left to write naive 'political' scripts and then JN-T would endeavour to make the whole thing as camp and tacky as possible.
You are so right. The Happiness Patrol represents everything that had gone wrong with the show, for me. The moment that bloody Kandyman thing lumbered onscreen, I recall - as a fan from the mid-60s - thinking "This has to be the end - this is the nadir." Hell, I was pleased they put the show out of our misery, so can you imagine how the general punter felt?
Yes, I get what the Kandyman is supposed to represent. But what did the general audience (the most important audience) see? A bloody great Liquorice Allsort on legs; it was something the Goodies would have done if they were taking the p*ss out of Who. And, yes, defenders of The Happiness Patrol point out to it's supposedly being cutting satire. But, by then, Thatcher parodies had been done to death. It wasn't cutting edge, it was stale and tired.
And that's not even getting into the fact that Michael Grade jumped into bed with Colin Baker's ex-wife at the first opportunity. It all got way too personal and motivated by people's own interest.
"Allegedly", one should say, lest DS's lawyers have sudden palpitations! Colin Baker himself seems to rubbish any suggestion that personal issues played any part in the decision to 'rest' the show.
Comments
And she fought against it as hard as she possibly could. JNT told her to create something that defies taste - and naturally she struggled, just like any competent designer would, to ignore her basic instincts and to not include some kind of flair. JNT rejected it again and again and kept telling her to have no sense of style whatsoever, and as a bit of a frustrated half-joke she replied "what, you mean like this?" and just splattered random colours and designs at the costume. This rebounded when JNT approved it and poor June was horrified.
I like the scene in The Twin Dillemma when the Doctor, having just put on his 'coat of many colours', proceeds to go to the console room and Peri says, "You can't go out, dressed like that." Looking at her, puzzled, the Doctor replies, "And why ever not?"
I like that.
This is a 55 minute documentary about Colin Baker's tenure, and I believe it is on the Twin Dilemma DVD release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUF5EAw63zk
It features the scene with Colin changing out of Peter's Cricket costume, to put on that colourful coat. I like to see this now and again. It's an enjoyable watch. It mentions Michael Grade's decision to put Dr Who on a hiatious. It also mentions JNT and talks about some of the things he tried to do to make Colin's time a good one.
Yeah, I do admire the boldness and ambition of The Twin Dilemma. If you watch it out of context it's actually not really that bad, just a bit out of sorts. Colin does a great job with what he's given.
The problem is that it follows on from Androzani, and from that point of view the whole story is just a constant insult to Peter and all his fans - especially considering that Androzani was such an exceptional send-off. I think Twin Dilemma was the right idea but at the wrong time - typical of JNT, really.
I think that JNT should have got The Twin Dilemma as the first story of the next season after Peter left. Also, turn TTD into 2, 45 minute episodes. It feels wrong to me that it hangs on to the end of Peter's tenure.
JNT did say in a 1994 interview that he wanted CB's Doctor to be shown to fans properly at the end of PD's tenure and not wait for over ten months until a new season starts. He wanted fans to be given a 'taster' of what the 'new' Doctor is like as a person, so fans weren't upset to have to wait.
1) used old reliable writers that knew Doctor Who and how to write for it and not insist on using inexperienced novices that often couldn't write for shit.
2) have got much better directors that again knew how to do the genre. Warriors of the Deeps biggest downfall is awful directing.
3) not make it so bloody eighties. The ridiculous glam rock android in The Visitation manages to date a story set in 17th Century. No question marks and no technicolour dreamcoat.
4) put story quality and the making of quality before anything and everything else. Stuff bugging off on a jolly for a week in America to do conventions in the middle of a story's production.
5) left much earlier.
The BBC should have...
1) kept the portion of Executive Producer, or have put somebody in a position of authority to rein JNT in.
2) took a much more active roll when the series started to flounder.
3) fired John Nathan-Turner.
So John Nathan-Turner wasn't that good as producer, then?
He wasn't by Season 23, but seeing as by this stage no JNT = no Doctor Who, firing him would have been counter productive.
Even during some of the later Five serials [looking at YOU, Warriors Of The Deep], the show just had a general air of something that very few people outside of the actors themselves - God bless Colin - gave a toss about. The budget was crap in the 60s and 70s too, but at least they tried, and they made magic. The 80s stuff just looked cheap. The Myrka still had wet paint on it when it was filmed. The Sontaran costumes in The Two Doctors were risibly bad - compare with their first appearance a over a decade before - the mask moved, the costume fit, Kevin Lindsay made a lot of effort to make Linx look like a living creature (with the fantastically creepy lip-licking)... by The Two Doctors the masks barely moved, the costume was wobbly, the neck-piece of the armour was loose and flapping around not connected to anyone... there was just a general air of not giving even half a toss about the show, it was just something that was thrown out.
There was a sense of "It's only Doctor Who" when it came to the attempts to put the show on the screen. And that's what killed it.
I'm not sure if that's because JNT wanted out, the BBC wanted rid, the public interest had wained, or just a general sense of ennui due to the show running every year for over two decades - though I suspect that it was a combination of all of those things - but when those involved in putting the show on screen don't care, all the acting in the world won't save a production.
What they needed was not a team who would say "It's only Doctor Who", but a team who were enthusiastic, who would look at a tiny budget as a challenge, not an excuse, who would say "It's Doctor Who!!" and actually love the damn show.
You can see this seep in to things as the McCoy era carries on. The enthusiasm of Cartmel, Aaronovitch et al really elevates the whole show - even JNT seems to have rediscovered his love for the show in the last two years. The budget in Survival or Fenric is probably much lower than in The Two Doctors or Timelash, but they look leagues better because there's some damn effort been put in.
But it was too little, too late.
The show needed somebody other than Colin to care about it, basically. And for a wide variety of reasons - not least of which probably just being that, to be honest, it had run its course - it didn't get that.
Cancellation in 89 is still painful, because the show was on the up, and you were left feeling that we were robbed of more good stories.
It's hard to feel too bitter over the cancellation in 85, though. It's hard to claim that it wasn't deserved.
I didn't realise JNT wanted out, for instance, that does explain quite a lot I guess.
On a separate note I really admire Colin Baker for his enthusiasm about the show. I understand he had a rough time while he was there, and he was going through a personal crisis at the start of his tenure but still he got on with it and he seems to have a lot of time for the fans. Fair play to the bloke, he deserves a medal.
I don't think anyone can realistically question Colin's part in events, or bring his acting ability into the debate. He had boundless enthusiasm for the show and for his role until the bitter end. He didn't have any hard feelings after the hiatus and as the face of the show, kept it going through a dark period.
And sadly, this meant that he was an easy fall guy and he ended up as the one person who was publicly fired and had his television career and professional reputation ruined during that time. So unjust, poor Colin.
I do feel bitter with Michael Grade over the 1985 hiatus, yes. Because what he did, putting the show on hold for 18 months, robbed the fans of the chance to see the Ice Warriors for the fourth time in DW history. Also, the Celestial Totymaker would have come back, rumoured to have been played by the original actor.
And that's not even getting into the fact that Michael Grade jumped into bed with Colin Baker's ex-wife at the first opportunity. It all got way too personal and motivated by people's own interest.
A) MG was controller of BBC1, not DG of the BBC.
Sorry, I had my wires crossed. I thought when he was interviewed on Room 101 back around 2002, he said that he was DG of the BBC. I shall remember that he was controller of the BBC.
This is a clip of him on Room 101, from the early noughties, putting DW into Room 101. If you look, you will see that he is wearing Red socks. Rather apropriate for a man like him, don't you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyXQX0P52MU
Anyway on another note. Apparently, at the end of Revelation of the Daleks, when CB's Doctor said to Peri, "Alright. I'll take you to...", he would have said Blackpool. That would have been where the Doctor and Peri had gone to in the first episode of the next story in 1986. But because of MG, this didn't happen and we got the rather drab, mediocre 'TOAT' instead.
To be fair, we may have dodged a bullet there. I like Delta and the Bannermen but the holiday camp setting means it's a really obviously ultra low budget story - the whole thing looks amateur. It undermines everything and comes off rather embarrassing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bRa8M1-hqw
This is filmed on the same set as The Trial Of A Time Lord. It was shown on F&S a year later in '87.
This is included on one of the DW DVD releases. I cannot remember where, either a Sixth Dr release or Seventh Dr release.
Absolutely. Grade and Jonathan Powell couldn't abide the show and Colin was just there at the wrong time.
Great bloke. Met him during the hiatus as a cynical teen and he was lovely even though I was quite shy. If I met him now, I'd just shake his hand and say "Cheers, Colin."
Doesn't give a very balanced look at the classic era does it? Clearly the worst bits from the series have been cherry picked to suit an agenda.
A good example of how low Doctor Who sunk before the recommission. In the 90s the TV movie and the New Adventures kept things going but the franchise was close to death by the time RTD and Lorraine Heggessey came along. The BBC lavish all sorts of attention on Doctor Who now but never acknowledge that they treated it like something rotten on the bottom of their shoe as little as 10-12 years ago.
Not in my humble opinion no. All Who producers (and later, executives) have made bad decisions, JNT just continually made more of them. He also wasn't very professional, and I don't just mean in the like of his immature falling out with Eric Saward (who was totally right about John's insistence on not hiring experienced writers). The likes of Barry Letts and Steven Moffat would not bugger of to US conventions in the middle of story production and leave their poor script editors to do all the leg work back home.
I'll try
The ratings weren't bad, averaging around 7-8 million which equaled Peter Davison's final two series and was greater than Tom's final series. There simply wasn't a reason to cancel the show in 1985 other than they just didn't like it.
And it was that cancellation that really killed the show. Ratings fell through the floor after that first cancellation and never recovered.
The discussion about Colin being too large a presence to transfer to the small screen is interesting, and especially the part where they question the decision to cast and actor based on his party antics. Quite true that it is a questionable reason to give such an important role for such a trivial reason.
You are so right. The Happiness Patrol represents everything that had gone wrong with the show, for me. The moment that bloody Kandyman thing lumbered onscreen, I recall - as a fan from the mid-60s - thinking "This has to be the end - this is the nadir." Hell, I was pleased they put the show out of our misery, so can you imagine how the general punter felt?
Yes, I get what the Kandyman is supposed to represent. But what did the general audience (the most important audience) see? A bloody great Liquorice Allsort on legs; it was something the Goodies would have done if they were taking the p*ss out of Who. And, yes, defenders of The Happiness Patrol point out to it's supposedly being cutting satire. But, by then, Thatcher parodies had been done to death. It wasn't cutting edge, it was stale and tired.
"Allegedly", one should say, lest DS's lawyers have sudden palpitations! Colin Baker himself seems to rubbish any suggestion that personal issues played any part in the decision to 'rest' the show.