Series 7b is really Series 8... anyone else feel like we're being conned?

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  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    Si_Crewe wrote: »
    Incidentally, it seems the BBC are struggling to keep their story straight.

    The latest TV ad's say you can watch "every episode of the current series" on iPlayer.
    No you can't. You can only watch the 2nd half of series 7.

    I guess the BBC, themselves, aren't even sure if this year's shows are a separate series or not. :p

    I'd imagine that they're trying to get people to perceive that since Clara came along it's a new series and to forget about how many episodes there were last year.
    Which worked on me. That was exactly my perception.

    It was only when I noticed in the description of my PVR recording that the episode 'Hide' was described as being episode 4 of 8.
    "8 episodes?" I thought, "Surely some mistake? They've listed this series as having only 8 episodes".
    Then I came on here and read a couple of posts which referred to this series as 7B, then realised that things weren't how I originally perceived them to be.

    As soon as this series started afresh with Clara boarding the Tardis, whatever was shown last year and how many epsiodes there were was completely out of my mind. As far as I was concerned this series was presented as a brand new series. Not the second half of a series.
    I can only conclude that the BBC intended for others and I to perceive things that way.
    When it came back the announcer didn't say anything about it being the second half of the series, they just presented it as the brand new series.
  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
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    This is the new series. It's the "Series 7 Part 2" series. :p
  • AlrightmateAlrightmate Posts: 73,120
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    Tom Tit wrote: »
    Suppose you're right on the money about all of this - the BBC should have simply told the public the way it was, what they are doing and the reasons for it and people would have not necessarily been pleased but accepting of it, as they were the last time they had a 'rest year'. But instead they've lied, spun and doggedly ignored the issue, frankly insulting the intelligence of the audience. That's what gets my goat - not the reduction itself, but the misinformation, the lack of transparency.

    Yes, I don't really blame Moffat for the actual situation as it's not up to him how many episodes a series can have or how many are broadcast. That's the BBC's call.
    I guess he had to say something and had to offer a sugar-coated explanation which would likely sound acceptable to viewers. I couldn't blame him for the actual decision about how many episodes can be made for each series. Although promising more Doctor Who than ever is probably pushing it a bit.
  • November_RainNovember_Rain Posts: 9,145
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    I've been trying (really, I have) to stay away from this thread since it seems that anyone who expresses an opinion that they feel short changed this year is set upon like a fox by the hounds. However, I've given up, so here goes:

    <snip>

    This post has gone on much longer than I intended it to and for that I apologise. I await being shot down like everyone else who feels we've been lied to.

    If only there was a 'like' button on here.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 249
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    Yes, I don't really blame Moffat for the actual situation as it's not up to him how many episodes a series can have or how many are broadcast. That's the BBC's call.
    I guess he had to say something and had to offer a sugar-coated explanation which would likely sound acceptable to viewers. I couldn't blame him for the actual decision about how many episodes can be made for each series. Although promising more Doctor Who than ever is probably pushing it a bit.

    Every indication is that it's not the BBC, not the production team grafters, but the current exec team that has not been able to produce the episode. The production schedule has been 9 months on three months off. That has been remarkably consistent, so there's no question of the production team workers themselves being unable to fulfil the gruelling schedule.

    From all the evidence we've ever had, the BBC would like to have as much Doctor Who as possible, in order to cover their spending shortfall, since it makes about 5 times as much revenue as it costs.

    Moffat has never delivered 14 ep/year series for two years on the trot due to scripting issues. Never. He openly admitted that they came a cropper in 2011, and had to delay the series production start by six months until Feb 2012, so he could catch up.

    None of that explains why they're not filming anything other than two specials in the entire year, admittedly. Though if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bank on it being the BBC's decision.

    It was December 1st that they wrapped on season 7.That means that the scripts should have been pretty much finalised up over a month beforehand in October. Are we to believe that nothing regarding season 8 has been planned since all that time? No outline, or script commissions to other writers? It if really were that the BBC wouldn't budget for a series 8 this year, that would be no reason to delay that process. Or is it just that Moffat spent the rest of his time on Sherlock, then the Doctor Who 50th Special, and thus, there's been no series 8 proper outline at all yet?

    Which do you think is the most likely?
  • DiscoPDiscoP Posts: 5,931
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    Every indication is that it's not the BBC, not the production team grafters, but the current exec team that has not been able to produce the episode. The production schedule has been 9 months on three months off. That has been remarkably consistent, so there's no question of the production team workers themselves being unable to fulfil the gruelling schedule.

    From all the evidence we've ever had, the BBC would like to have as much Doctor Who as possible, in order to cover their spending shortfall, since it makes about 5 times as much revenue as it costs.

    Moffat has never delivered 14 ep/year series for two years on the trot due to scripting issues. Never. He openly admitted that they came a cropper in 2011, and had to delay the series production start by six months until Feb 2012, so he could catch up.

    None of that explains why they're not filming anything other than two specials in the entire year, admittedly. Though if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bank on it being the BBC's decision.

    It was December 1st that they wrapped on season 7.That means that the scripts should have been pretty much finalised up over a month beforehand in October. Are we to believe that nothing regarding season 8 has been planned since all that time? No outline, or script commissions to other writers? It if really were that the BBC wouldn't budget for a series 8 this year, that would be no reason to delay that process. Or is it just that Moffat spent the rest of his time on Sherlock, then the Doctor Who 50th Special, and thus, there's been no series 8 proper outline at all yet?

    Which do you think is the most likely?

    Even if all the problems are down to Mr. Moffat and script being delivered late ultimately it's still the BBC's decision as to whether or not they carry on working with him though.

    I can only assume that they are happy enough with his work on Doctor Who and Sherlock that they are happy to put up with these difficulties even if it means a sparser schedule and less revenue for them.

    Also I think that Moffat is exec producer on all 50th anniversary things, so not just the special but also the doco and I guess any related chat shows, quiz shows etc. I've no idea what is involved in exec producing as opposed to writing but he certainly seemed to imply that he was very busy in recent interviews and accounts from other writers have said the same thing.

    Also, as other have said from reading the Writers Tale it certainly seemed that producing 14 episodes a year took it's toll on RTD. As much I would love as much Doctor Who each year as possible, because there's precious little else on TV, I certainly wouldn't want anyone making themselves ill over it. I would rather they either find a way to share out the show runner duties or reduce production to 8-10 episodes a year.
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,057
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    For me, it just feels as though the show is winding down.

    I think its partly because we've had such a patchy run of episodes this year, but also the lack of stability around when the show is being broadcast (and how many episodes are being broadcast).

    Having a clear run of 13 episodes gave the show gravitas, as though the BBC thought it was important. Now it all feels a bit piecemeal.
  • RooksRooks Posts: 9,100
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    nebogipfel wrote: »
    I don't think DWM or any online site that relies on, eg, preview copies of episodes and insider access to do much in the way of investigative journalism. To be honest, I don't blame DWM for wanting to stay on the jolly side. I bet they sell many copies to people who don't like forum style discussion of bad news.

    DWM do an "Ask Steven" page each month, perhaps we should bombard DWM with these very questions? DWM are in a position to ask these questions and they are questions that a large number of their readers would want to know. Something like "So Steven, last year you promised us more Doctor Who in 2013, not less. Can you give us more information about what form this will take?"

    Or maybe SFX or SciFiNow (though frankly both of these mags should have raised the questions before now imo).
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,057
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    Rooks wrote: »
    DWM do an "Ask Steven" page each month, perhaps we should bombard DWM with these very questions? DWM are in a position to ask these questions and they are questions that a large number of their readers would want to know. Something like "So Steven, last year you promised us more Doctor Who in 2013, not less. Can you give us more information about what form this will take?"

    Or maybe SFX or SciFiNow (though frankly both of these mags should have raised the questions before now imo).

    I've just lodged a complaint with the BBC about the misinformation its press office has published over the past few years concerning the number of new episodes/scheduling of episodes.

    I know that seems a little drastic, but I'm SO fed up with the constant smoke-and-mirrors from the BBC I though it was time to be a bit more direct in the hope of getting some honest answers.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 249
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    DiscoP wrote: »
    Even if all the problems are down to Mr. Moffat and script being delivered late ultimately it's still the BBC's decision as to whether or not they carry on working with him though.

    I can only assume that they are happy enough with his work on Doctor Who and Sherlock that they are happy to put up with these difficulties even if it means a sparser schedule and less revenue for them.

    Also I think that Moffat is exec producer on all 50th anniversary things, so not just the special but also the doco and I guess any related chat shows, quiz shows etc. I've no idea what is involved in exec producing as opposed to writing but he certainly seemed to imply that he was very busy in recent interviews and accounts from other writers have said the same thing.

    Also, as other have said from reading the Writers Tale it certainly seemed that producing 14 episodes a year took it's toll on RTD. As much I would love as much Doctor Who each year as possible, because there's precious little else on TV, I certainly wouldn't want anyone making themselves ill over it. I would rather they either find a way to share out the show runner duties or reduce production to 8-10 episodes a year.

    Just because the BBC has had to put up with it, doesn't mean that they're happy with it. It might well be the least worse option, given that the only other alternative would be to replace Moffat in the 50th year, and risk causing even more disruption (yet another gap year), as well as putting Sherlock at risk to boot. Who would they replace him with anyway?

    If you were BB21 Controller would you make a radical decision like that, or play it safe and take what's on offer?
  • macman11macman11 Posts: 341
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    Mulett wrote: »
    For me, it just feels as though the show is winding down.

    I think its partly because we've had such a patchy run of episodes this year, but also the lack of stability around when the show is being broadcast (and how many episodes are being broadcast).

    Having a clear run of 13 episodes gave the show gravitas, as though the BBC thought it was important. Now it all feels a bit piecemeal.

    Yeah, a permanent move to "Specials" seems on the horizon and I bet the first after Christmas won't be until Autumn 2014. :(
  • DiscoPDiscoP Posts: 5,931
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    Just because the BBC has had to put up with it, doesn't mean that they're happy with it. It might well be the least worse option, given that the only other alternative would be to replace Moffat in the 50th year, and risk causing even more disruption (yet another gap year), as well as putting Sherlock at risk to boot. Who would they replace him with anyway?

    If you were BB21 Controller would you make a radical decision like that, or play it safe and take what's on offer?

    Blimey don't even get me started on what I would like to do if I were BBC1 Controller, but for the purposes of this thread I'll limit it to talking about Doctor Who.

    If it were me I would have given Moffat whatever support he needs to enable him to produce a consistent straight run of episodes each year, which I guess could be in form of an increased budget for writers so that Moffat has less to directly write himself.

    I would have said 2012 can be another year of specials to give yourselves time to sort things out (which is virtually what we got anyway, albeit with a different name) but then you know what 2013 is a really big year for Doctor Who, we've got a ton of merchandise coming out, we've got this big 'Olympic' style event planned for November so it would be really good if we could have a straight run of episodes in the year as well to promote it.

    But first and foremost what I would have done is been straightforward and honest about it all so that people knew what to expect and didn't raise false hope.
  • DiscoPDiscoP Posts: 5,931
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    Mulett wrote: »
    I've just lodged a complaint with the BBC about the misinformation its press office has published over the past few years concerning the number of new episodes/scheduling of episodes.

    I know that seems a little drastic, but I'm SO fed up with the constant smoke-and-mirrors from the BBC I though it was time to be a bit more direct in the hope of getting some honest answers.

    Good luck with that, but I bet I can guess what their reply will be. They will say that they haven't announced their full plans for November yet and scheduling decisions were made for creative reasons.

    Do I win a prize if they anything along those lines? :)
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,057
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    DiscoP wrote: »
    Good luck with that, but I bet I can guess what their reply will be. They will say that they haven't announced their full plans for November yet and scheduling decisions were made for creative reasons.

    Do I win a prize if they anything along those lines? :)

    Shall we turn it into a drinking game instead?
    • One shot if they use the phrase "We are sorry if you feel you have been misled by our publicity"
    • One shot if they fail to address my complaint about a reduction in Who production, and instead point to "an exciting anniversary year".
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    I'll take a shot if the response is: "We are sorry for your entitlement issues."

    :o. ;)
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    Rooks wrote: »
    DWM do an "Ask Steven" page each month, perhaps we should bombard DWM with these very questions? DWM are in a position to ask these questions and they are questions that a large number of their readers would want to know. Something like "So Steven, last year you promised us more Doctor Who in 2013, not less. Can you give us more information about what form this will take?"

    Or maybe SFX or SciFiNow (though frankly both of these mags should have raised the questions before now imo).

    You could always join Ian Levine in his new hobby of twittering about it all day, I suppose. :). He kept doing "Ask Ed Russell", until Ed blocked him.

    I like discussing these things but wouldn't want any kind of apology. Crying over spilt milk. Moffat loves the show and I hope he and the new producer manages to turn things round. And stop tweeting bollocks.

    The PR quality has been poor, but I think this probably reflects the various ever changing turmoils behind the scene
  • DiscoPDiscoP Posts: 5,931
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    Mulett wrote: »
    Shall we turn it into a drinking game instead?
    • One shot if they use the phrase "We are sorry if you feel you have been misled by our publicity"
    • One shot if they fail to address my complaint about a reduction in Who production, and instead point to "an exciting anniversary year".

    I'll down a pint if they say we don't know what the future plans are because Moffat hasn't written it yet :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 249
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    DiscoP wrote: »
    Blimey don't even get me started on what I would like to do if I were BBC1 Controller, but for the purposes of this thread I'll limit it to talking about Doctor Who.

    If it were me I would have given Moffat whatever support he needs to enable him to produce a consistent straight run of episodes each year, which I guess could be in form of an increased budget for writers so that Moffat has less to directly write himself.

    I would have said 2012 can be another year of specials to give yourselves time to sort things out (which is virtually what we got anyway, albeit with a different name) but then you know what 2013 is a really big year for Doctor Who, we've got a ton of merchandise coming out, we've got this big 'Olympic' style event planned for November so it would be really good if we could have a straight run of episodes in the year as well to promote it.

    But first and foremost what I would have done is been straightforward and honest about it all so that people knew what to expect and didn't raise false hope.

    All of that involves saying to Moffat, "you're not the showrunner, I'm micromanaging you."

    If Moffat wanted to delegate more scripts, why do you think he'd be unable to? I hardly think they're strapped for cash for a couple of writers - they always over commission anyway. He's the showrunner for Doctor Who and he decides the outline and series arc.

    All those options are available to the showrunner, without having to be given the nod, but they don't seem to have worked, or availed upon. The word is that The Crimson Horror was delegated to Gattis at a late stage anyway - presumably out of necessity rather than Moffat's orignial desire. This might well have been an attempt to curb the sliding deadlines. For all we know, the last meeting Moffat had with the top brass, it was strongly suggested that he gets some extra support.
  • RooksRooks Posts: 9,100
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    nebogipfel wrote: »
    You could always join Ian Levine in his new hobby of twittering about it all day, I suppose. :). He kept doing "Ask Ed Russell", until Ed blocked him.

    I've seen that. However, that approach is one that really does put some pressure on companies. I've been working in PR lately (fascinating by the way) and they heavily monitor social media. Some people might block him as a result but it would definitely be flagged as an issue if the noise gets louder. One thing the BBC don't want at the moment is more bad PR :) Social media noise is more effective than any other medium.

    Though you might argue it counter-productive and it might be but if you stay quiet then how will the BBC know your thoughts?
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    Rooks wrote: »
    I've seen that. However, that approach is one that really does put some pressure on companies. I've been working in PR lately (fascinating by the way) and they heavily monitor social media. Some people might block him as a result but it would definitely be flagged as an issue if the noise gets louder. One thing the BBC don't want at the moment is more bad PR :) Social media noise is more effective than any other medium.

    Though you might argue it counter-productive and it might be but if you stay quiet then how will the BBC know your thoughts?

    If their monitoring of social media extends to popular Who forums then they'll already know the thoughts of many people. I also know people have complained. And I am fairly sure, not least because Private Eye said so, that the BBC themselves didn't want a reduced episode count.

    I think they know the PR has been bungled. Moffat, for example, has withdrawn from Twitter. Partly to save time but I suspect because he realised he kept making things worse. They do seem to be trying to say nothing rather than hamfisted cobblers. (although Moffats "one sixty minute episode is absolute nonsense" was a corker).

    I don't see the point of complaining via Twitter about the poor PR since 2011. There's no point demanding more episodes in 2013.

    So the only thing left is to noisily demand a straight run of 13 in 2014. And bullshit free news about it as soon as possible. But I think there may be good reason why they can't or won't announce series 8 plans yet, so I am content to be patient a while longer.

    So maybe I will Twitter that I would like 13 episodes in 2014, to be announced whenever they feel like it. Somehow I don't think this will be a surprise to them.
  • Tom TitTom Tit Posts: 2,554
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    I think the BBC will be fairly desperate to keep hold of Moffat: even ignoring the acclaim he has received for other BBC shows like Sherlock he has a strong reputation outside of the UK (he was working with Spielberg on a Tin Tin film before pulling out to 'run' Dctor Who). Frankly, they are getting a writer of his calibre cheaply.

    On top of that, look at the Audience AI for his episodes, compared to others (Moff stories in bold):

    The Crimson Horror 85
    Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS 85
    Hide 85
    Cold War 84
    The Rings of Akhaten 84
    The Bells of St John 87
    The Snowmen 87
    The Angels Take Manhattan 88
    The Power of Three 87
    A Town Called Mercy 85
    Dinosaurs on a Spaceship 87
    Asylum of the Daleks 89
    The Doctor, the Widow & the Wardrobe 84
    The Wedding of River Song 86
    Closing Time 86
    The God Complex 86
    The Girl Who Waited 85
    Night Terrors 86
    Let's Kill Hitler 85
    A Good Man Goes to War 88
    The Almost People 86
    The Rebel Flesh 85
    The Doctor's Wife 87
    The Curse of the Black Spot 86
    The Day of the Moon 87
    The Impossible Astronaut 88

    A Christmas Carol 83
    The Big Bang 89
    The Pandorica Opens 88

    The Lodger 87
    Vincent and the Doctor 86
    Cold Blood 85
    The Hungry Earth 86
    Amy's Choice 84
    Vampires of Venice 86
    Flesh and Stone 86
    Time of Angels 87

    Victory of the Daleks 84
    The Beast Below 86
    The Eleventh Hour 86

    This is just for the Matt Smith era. It's pretty obvious that he has a higher average rating than the other writers. Take the lower ratings for the Christmas episodes with a pinch of salt: Christmas Day programming tends to be lower than usual for all programmes; presumably people are less interested in watching TV on Christmas Day, due to the familial nature of the day. The pattern was the same for Christmas episodes in RTD's time.
  • Joe_ZelJoe_Zel Posts: 20,832
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    Why don't they just get someone in to run the show along with Moffat?

    All this talk about the job taking its toll on RTD and Moffat struggling with the workload along with Sherlock, surely they can afford more than one sole show runner?
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    Joe_Zel wrote: »
    Why don't they just get someone in to run the show along with Moffat?

    All this talk about the job taking its toll on RTD and Moffat struggling with the workload along with Sherlock, surely they can afford more than one sole show runner?

    They did take action by reducing the number of scripts Moffat wrote for series seven. But as highlighted above, the BBC will want the main writer to do the big episodes - opener, finale and Christmas. But series seven still suffered problems - Caroline Skinner departed, an indication not all was well. So now they have a new producer and let's hope he has the authority and remit to support Moffat getting things back on track.
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    The AI list above is interesting and highlights a truth - Moffat is really delivering for the BBC. They must be keen to keep him. They got all sorts of praise from the industry and the public over Sherlock. That's another reason I think any "Moffat must go" stuff is daft. Regardless of whether we like particular stories or arc plots,the public love his episodes.

    Christmas tends to get lower AI because so many more people watch it who don't normally. They're not as predisposed to liking scifi/fantasy shows in the first place and therefore harder to please. But its still a hugely important episode for the BBC. They'll want Moffat writing it.

    So the BBC will probably be desparate to keep.Moffat, but equally desparate to fix the problems that have led to such erratic and reduced delivery of episodes. One of the problems, though, is Moffat's delivery of scripts. Tricky.

    Even so, the BBC do seem to have let things go to pot since 2010. Silly buggers.
  • Joe_ZelJoe_Zel Posts: 20,832
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    nebogipfel wrote: »
    They did take action by reducing the number of scripts Moffat wrote for series seven. But as highlighted above, the BBC will want the main writer to do the big episodes - opener, finale and Christmas. But series seven still suffered problems - Caroline Skinner departed, an indication not all was well. So now they have a new producer and let's hope he has the authority and remit to support Moffat getting things back on track.

    I didn't ask had they took action, I meant specifically hired more than one show runner, ie. someone on the same authority level as Moffat. The show clearly needs it.

    Then Moffat can do his big episodes without shouldering the burden of running the show himself whilst doing his other projects.
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