If Edith is pregnant and Gregson is not around could she be forced into a marriage of convenience to minimise the scandal.
She may be a modern woman but it is 1922 after all.
perhaps one of Mary's suitors who have yet to make an appearance. Evelyn Napier?
I agree with all this. I'm probably a dream audience, because I tend to be not very critical about logic etc. I just love characters and once I'm won, I'm won.
And I'm certainly won for Downton. I love it. Burned Patrick, Bates' prison story and all the death's didn't make me love it any less. Every Downton sunday is a pleasure for me.
Every Downton Sunday is a pleasure for me to. I suspect that most viewers, the ones who are not contributing to message boards or forums, actually just enjoy it. They probably have moments when they laugh at some of the dialogue but other than that mostly enjoy the acting, the various storylines, the upstairs ladies dresses, the house and the cinematography. What more could you want for a Sunday evening, before the working week begins again.
If Edith is pregnant and Gregson is not around could she be forced into a marriage of convenience to minimise the scandal.
She may be a modern woman but it is 1922 after all.
perhaps one of Mary's suitors who have yet to make an appearance. Evelyn Napier?
I like that! Particularly if Gregson came back later...
Must say though, even with Aunt Rosamund's warning of doom, I'm not convinced Edith will get pregnant. There's already two babies at Downton! That nursery would be getting very crowded. Your (Bellemauve) suggestion would make a pregnancy storyline more feasible, but would mean
we'd likely lose Edith from Downton as a regular cast member, as she'd be living elsewhere. Can't see that happening either.
I think Edith's main storyline will be focused around that document in some way; problems arising and Gregson off-piste.
IF there is to be a baby this season I still expect it will be Anna sadly - though I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Her outburst to Mrs Hughes that she would kill herself if she was pregnant was a big, red flag - and let's face it, Downton isn't always the subtlest of shows.
Of course it might end up being a baby in the Christmas Special instead, courtesy of Edna.
It's not a Television programme over here. We haven't even watched season 3 here yet and it is unwatchabel anyway because it is horribly dubbed. So Downton for me is -- as many other English series - a "Computer series".
The DVDs are on sale for people to buy, wherever they are in the world. Those sales help fund future series.
And as I said before: I can't help getting an impression about her when they spam me with pictures all over the internet. But maybe the "TV magic" will improve my impression. I won't rule that out. So far I'm underwhelmed.
Who are "they"? I doubt "they" have targeted you deliberately.
Not a single image has so far been released of Daisy Lewis's character by Carnival or ITV.
They'll never be close. Mary has no respect for her and Edith obviously can't have any back because of that.
Mary is bound to stick the knife in regardless of what Edith's drama is. Once she's over the shock she'll make her usual bitchy comments. And if it's a pregnancy, she'll probably be really insulting. Her being a supportive sister would kill the viewers with shock
I hope Edith gives some bitchy comments back.
It'll be much more fun that them weeping together into their sherry.
I suspect that s4 Edith will indeed give as good as she gets. And Mr Pamuk may get a mention along the way....
Mary would be concerned about what other people would think, if Edith were to bring scandal to the house. Remember Mary's conversation with Matthew after she had told him about Pamuk, she commented "that Sybil was the one who didn't care what other people thought". They could probably keep it out of the newspapers, as newspapers back then were more biddable than they are now. It would predominantly be a scandal amongst the aristocracy rather than the net twitching of the lower orders of society.
It took the abdication scandal to change that (part in bold). It would be a disgrace but Edith could be kept hidden at Downton and while there would be rumours in the village etc, it would only the upper crust's
If Edith is pregnant and Gregson is not around could she be forced into a marriage of convenience to minimise the scandal.
She may be a modern woman but it is 1922 after all.
perhaps one of Mary's suitors who have yet to make an appearance. Evelyn Napier?
Interesting.
Evelyn Napier has not been touted as one of the suitors, has he?
And will Evelyn Napier or Charles Blake be married or widowed? Surely not every thirtysomething man to arrive at Downton can be single in the postwar period when men were at such a premium?
Sorry, as I said, I'm not a native speaker. So it is probably just my wrong translation. I always had the impression that "bluestocking" implied something negative. But maybe it is just that I read to many regency novels in which a "bluestocking" certainly WAS something negative.
And "screen" is my computer screen. I don't watch it on TV anyway so it makes no difference if I watch pictures or scenes. They're both on the same "screen".
I think you're right in saying that 'bluestocking' was often used in a negative way - especially by those people who didn't think that women should be educated!
It's a short leap from that attitude, to using descriptions like 'frumpy' and 'dowdy' - in an attempt to further undermine the bluestocking's 'femininity'.
I understood what you were saying when you referred to seeing characters 'on your screen' - even when they haven't yet appeared in one of the episodes which has been screend on ITV so far.
However, I think that it would be very interesting to see Tom fall for someone who is less conventionally beautiful than Sybil.
To my mind, Tom fell in love with Sybil the person - her spirit, her personality, her principles, and her willing to stand up for those principles. The fact that all of those assets were wrapped up in a beautiful packaging was just an added bonus!
I don't think that the character of Tom, as presented to us, is so shallow that he would judge someone purely on the outer packaging - be that age, height, class or anything else.
It would be completely in character for him to fall in love with another beautiful soul - even if that soul comes in an unconventional packaging.
Well, I liked her and - as I said - it helped tremendously to learn English. So I can only recommend reading light lecture for everyone who wants to learn a foreign language even though I might have learned the wrong expression for one or the other word - as proven with "bluestocking" obviously.
You can't start with learning English reading Shakespeare . Not even Austen.
The DVDs are on sale for people to buy, wherever they are in the world. Those sales help fund future series.
Oh, I have them all and not only in English, but in German, too, which is stupid since I hate the dubbing. I own the German Edition just for the subtitles because my family doesn't speak English as well as I do.
But I'm not ready to wait for the DVDs to come out. I watch every sunday and I'm not ashamed to do it.
Who are "they"? I doubt "they" have targeted you deliberately.
Not a single image has so far been released of Daisy Lewis's character by Carnival or ITV.
Did I say it came from ITV or Carnival? But there were several articles in several online editions of the newspapers. So don't say there weren't pictures of her. There were plenty and I don't see why you would think she'd look better to me in official pictures?
Of course I'm interested in her, since Tom Branson is by far my favourite character and I was one of the few S/T shippers, who was actually looking forward for him to move on. I was hoping for him to meet an amazing, beautiful and interesting woman. Someone as amazing as Sybil was. Sybil was "a beauty inside and out" , a dream girl. Tom adored her and I was expecting someone along those lines. And why should I not? After all they cast handsome young men as love interest for Mary, too.
But on first look I was underwhelmed and disappointed with her in pictures. That's all I'm saying and btw, I'm not the only one. I have seen many people saying the same. So what? It's just my opinion and you won't change it. I'm perfectly fine with everyone else saying their first impression is great or that they're waiting to judge when they see her in her episodes. Fine.
In fact I hope my impression will improve if she turns out to be endgame. It would be a great pity if I had to watch him in a romantic storyline that I couldn't ship.
Did I say it came from ITV or Carnival? But there were several articles in several online editions of the newspapers. So don't say there weren't pictures of her. There were plenty and I don't see why you would think she'd look better to me in official pictures?
I was querying who "they" were who you say were "spamming" you with pictures.
You chose to look at them so moaning you're being spammed is absurd.
... Tom adored her and I was expecting someone along those lines. And why should I not? After all they cast handsome young men as love interest for Mary, too.
That's all I'm saying and btw, I'm not the only one. I have seen many people saying the same. So what? It's just my opinion and you won't change it. I'm perfectly fine with everyone else saying their first impression is great or that they're waiting to judge when they see her in her episodes. Fine.
There are some odd people out there - and frankly a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of Sybil/Tom fans out there on the internet are fanatical to the point of derangement. And I'd bet a pretty penny that every one whining about everything to do with their pet plotline watch illegally.
In fact I hope my impression will improve if she turns out to be endgame. It would be a great pity if I had to watch him in a romantic storyline that I couldn't ship.
A ship is a vessel for the sea.
Downton is an ITV drama produced for UK audiences. The only ship so far has been the Titanic.
But maybe best not to use as reference for the English language...
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Would you be able to discuss the issue with Andorra in German, with the same fluency?
Andorra expresses herself in English very well indeed - with only the odd slight hiccup in terms of very small nuances.
However, as the Oxford dictionary is in agreement with her understanding that 'bluestocking' was often used in a derogatory sense, I think she has picked up that particular nuance pretty well:
But maybe best not to use as reference for the English language...
I was querying who "they" were who you say were "spamming" you with pictures.
You chose to look at them so moaning you're being spammed is absurd.
Ah, the sense of entitlement again.
Then don't look. No-one asked you to look at illegally obtained photographs.
There are some odd people out there - and frankly a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of Sybil/Tom fans out there on the internet are fanatical to the point of derangement. And I'd bet a pretty penny that every one whining about everything to do with their pet plotline watch illegally.
A ship is a vessel for the sea.
Downton is an ITV drama produced for UK audiences. The only ship so far has been the Titanic.
I think when it comes to watching what is after all a pretty period drama that relies a great deal on beautiful costumes and sets and yes, people, to engage the audience, it is perfectly acceptable for viewers to want and expect physical beauty in certain members of the cast.
Mary and Matthew were popular and had chemistry in part because they were beautiful people. When they cast Mary's new love interests, they certainly looked for handsome actors. I have read an interview in which GN and MD said as much.
Lily James, who was quite transparently brought in as the rebellious youngest girl after Sybil died, is a beautiful young woman. Whoever is brought in as Tom's new love interest is following in Sybil's footsteps too, so one would naturally expect her to be very pretty and not older than he is.
This is not a movie or show about the plain girl who gets the better-looking guy. It never has been and there is no reason it should be now. That is not why people watch this show.
As for looking at pictures, I do not believe the pictures that were published of Tom meeting DL's character on the street were illegally obtained. The photographer apparently had very close access to the scene. They almost looked posed, to be frank. If the production team somehow let someone get THAT close without authorization, they really fell down on the job.
At any rate, what difference does it make how they were obtained? They clearly show the character's appearance, from a distance and up close. And in every production picture in which I have seen her - however obtained - she has looked too old for him and not even close to as pretty as JBF.
I have no trouble with a "bluestocking" or intellectual type. That sounds great to me and I don't associate it with "frumpy." Sybil was a politically minded and serious young woman. She was also beautiful. But she was the type who could look beautiful in a severe nurse's uniform with her hair hidden under a kerchief. There is no reason they could not have that again, no matter what sort of personality or interests the character has. They have their choice of actresses, God knows.
I just think it's ridiculous to say that a viewer who wants the show to provide the sort of entertainment that has made it successful - and that includes pretty people and places and clothes - is being "entitled." Viewers make the money for this show. They have every right to expect drama, comedy, pathos, romance and beauty.
And when a beloved character has died and a well-loved couple lost, no matter the reason, to replace her/it with someone who does not come close to the standard of beauty set by her predecessor would be a risky, baffling choice. It would be letting down a lot of viewers. Not those who don't care at all about looks. But look at it this way, would a viewer who is totally beauty-blind be disappointed if Tom's love interest WAS beautiful? Probably not. Those of us who want that for him again WOULD be disappointed if he were to settle for far less.
So the best way to make everyone happy is to take looks seriously into consideration, to the same degree they did for Lily James and Tom Cullen, etc. Anything else would just be sub-par work on the part of the casting department.
And getting back to this "sense of entitlement" thing? What are you saying, that viewers are not entitled to expect anything from the show? That if the show declines due to bad writing, bad casting, bad acting, etc., then it's just too bad and no one has a right to complain?
This is a two-way street. If the show wants success, it needs to deliver and that includes romance that is actually exciting and engaging. No doubt you will argue that the ratings are still high and will continue to be. Maybe. But if ratings and money are all that matter, that shows a lack of respect for the audience frankly. If the people involved don't care enough about it to want to recapture some of the magic that was lost, then they are letting down the people who are paying their salaries. And if I feel let down by bad casting, I have every right to say so.
Andorra your English is terrific (and I love Heyer too!) I expect some forum members forget that Heyer uses the same words as Shakespeare but not always in the same order...
Andorra your English is terrific (and I love Heyer too!) I expect some forum members forget that Heyer uses the same words as Shakespeare but not always in the same order...
Agreed Heyer seems to have provided excellent material for learning
And I can't see any reason at all why you shouldn't watch Downton on a computer screen :cool:
I think when it comes to watching what is after all a pretty period drama that relies a great deal on beautiful costumes and sets and yes, people, to engage the audience, it is perfectly acceptable for viewers to want and expect physical beauty in certain members of the cast.
[I]Yet, the 'Ugly Duckling turns into a swan' storyline is a well-established TV drama trope. It has already featured - to a certain extent - in the Edith storyline. And there's nothing like love to help beauty bloom...
[/I]
Mary and Matthew were popular and had chemistry in part because they were beautiful people. ...
[I]In some people's opinion. I didn't really notice any particular 'chemistry' between the two of them; they were no more popular than any other characters, for me; and although I think Mary is a physically beautiful woman, Matthew's physical type is not one which I personally find attractive. Especially when the actor doesn't appear to be particularly engaged with his character or the script
[/I]
.....
This is not a movie or show about the plain girl who gets the better-looking guy. It never has been and there is no reason it should be now. That is not why people watch this show.
[B]However, if that comes up as a storyline, I'll watch it to see how it's done and how it develops. It would be interesting to see how such a storyline fitted in with the characters involved.
So, as I've already said, I don't think that the character of Tom is so shallow that he would judge a bluestocking by her cover. Mary, on the other hand, I think is definitely shallow enough to judge a suitor on his looks. But she is pragmatic enough to accept an ugly suitor based on his eligibility. Plenty of scope for good old drama in those scenarios.
...
But look at it this way, would a viewer who is totally beauty-blind be disappointed if Tom's love interest WAS beautiful? Probably not.
If I hadn't come across this discussion, I probably wouldn't even have though about how Tom's love interest looked. I'd have been wondering if it felt that the time was right for him to move on, and what was it about the new woman which had attracted him. If he had purely been attracted by physical beauty, that would have disappointed me, as it would seem out of character.
On the other hand, if the new love interest turned out to be less conventionally beautiful than Sybil - something which would no doubt have been pointed out by any number of the other character, if it was deliberate - then that would have intrigued me.
If the Downton powers that be have cast someone who they believe is beautiful, this kind of discussion will no doubt bewilder them.
[/B]...And if I feel let down by bad casting, I have every right to say so.
I'd rather see a good performance by a more 'homely' actor than a bad performance by a 'good-looking' one. So, for me the latter is "bad casting", the former is good casting.
I don't share all of the views you expressed, but I enjoyed reading your full post, which was argued with conviction and passion. I've cropped it simply to highlight the points I'm addressing.
I really hope they don't do a storyline where Edith is made a fool of, yet again, by a man and ends up moping around DA feeling foolish. She's better than that and the jilted at the altar storyline was used to launch Edith in a different, and better, direction. Even if it doesn't work out with Gregson I hope JF continues to base her amongst the bohemian London set. It's been such a turnaround from the downtrodden, chip on her shoulder, Edith we met in series one nd it has worked brilliantly.
I don't think Gregson will deliberately make a fool of her. I just think it won't work out for some reason. Edith probably is heading for another fall But I expect her to get back up again and go on to do better like she's always done.
The thing you have to admire about Edith is, she's had so many disappointments over the 10 years but she continues on and she does better and better along the way. She has real strength. So no matter what happens, even if she's pregnant, I think she'll make it through.
As for people's suggestion of her needing a husband for any unwanted child. I'd never rule out JF having Tom marrying her for that reason. I just have a feeling he may end up in Edith's or Rose's direction one day. I only rule out Mary as a possibility.
Washboard,
if they're going to do the "ugly duckling finding a prince" story, I wouldn't mind at all. But to think that likely would actually be unfair to the actress, because she is certainly no "ugly duckling".
She is attractive enough, don't get me wrong. I can't really explain it, it's maybe just that she looked a bit too old and a bit too boring. Maybe it was her expression (as I said, she was making cow eyes at him) which doesn't really speak for the "educated, spirited woman" theory.
I could see her as Tom's "Lavinia". You know, after evil Edna now one who is a bit too good?
But we'll see. Maybe there's more fire in her as the pictures suggest.
Oh, and thank you to everyone who defended my English. That was sweet of you .
Lily James, who was quite transparently brought in as the rebellious youngest girl after Sybil died, is a beautiful young woman. Whoever is brought in as Tom's new love interest is following in Sybil's footsteps too, so one would naturally expect her to be very pretty and not older than he is.
You might expect that but you can't speak for everyone else.
This is not a movie or show about the plain girl who gets the better-looking guy. It never has been and there is no reason it should be now. That is not why people watch this show.
First, how do you know that's the plotline? Second, how do you why people watch the programme?
I just think it's ridiculous to say that a viewer who wants the show to provide the sort of entertainment that has made it successful - and that includes pretty people and places and clothes - is being "entitled." Viewers make the money for this show. They have every right to expect drama, comedy, pathos, romance and beauty.
Viewers have no right to expect anything. They may wish for certain things, but no right to expect anything. I'm afraid your
And when a beloved character has died and a well-loved couple lost, no matter the reason, to replace her/it with someone who does not come close to the standard of beauty set by her predecessor would be a risky, baffling choice. It would be letting down a lot of viewers.
Letting down who? I honestly find this argument foolish.
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So the best way to make everyone happy is to take looks seriously into consideration, to the same degree they did for Lily James and Tom Cullen, etc. Anything else would just be sub-par work on the part of the casting department.
No, it isn't. You know NOTHING about Daisy Lewis's character. Come back after you've seen an episode with her and you may have a point but until then, whining is absurd.
And getting back to this "sense of entitlement" thing? What are you saying, that viewers are not entitled to expect anything from the show? That if the show declines due to bad writing, bad casting, bad acting, etc., then it's just too bad and no one has a right to complain?
To repeat, no-one has a right to complain. That doesn't mean people shouldn't complain but no-one has right to do it. Why would anyone think they have a "right"?
This is a two-way street. If the show wants success, it needs to deliver and that includes romance that is actually exciting and engaging. No doubt you will argue that the ratings are still high and will continue to be.Maybe. But if ratings and money are all that matter, that shows a lack of respect for the audience frankly.
What? When has Downton shown a lack of respect? Because they've cast someone YOU don't like. Are you serious?
If the people involved don't care enough about it to want to recapture some of the magic that was lost, then they are letting down the people who are paying their salaries. And if I feel let down by bad casting, I have every right to say so.
What magic has been lost? I think you need to realise not everyone thinks as you do. And thank goodness for that.
Your post makes me laugh. Fantasy land, love, fantasy land.
Andorra your English is terrific (and I love Heyer too!) I expect some forum members forget that Heyer uses the same words as Shakespeare but not always in the same order...
I never questioned Andorra's English - I questioned her telling me what "bluestocking" meant and using Wikipedia as a source, then Georgette Heyer.
And the order words are used is rather important, isn't it? :rolleyes:
I don't think Gregson will deliberately make a fool of her. I just think it won't work out for some reason. Edith probably is heading for another fall But I expect her to get back up again and go on to do better like she's always done.
Well, that's the thing - we don't really know whether Gregson is going to deliberately hurt Edith. If he's what he seems, then no. But there's the insane wife, and that paper. It could be unimportant - Edith felt he was trusting her so she let down her guard finally. But it did seem she didn't bother to read it and it wasn't something she was expecting, something they'd discussed beforehand.
The thing you have to admire about Edith is, she's had so many disappointments over the 10 years but she continues on and she does better and better along the way. She has real strength. So no matter what happens, even if she's pregnant, I think she'll make it through.
Julian Fellowes has said something similar about Edith soldiering on despite the knocks.
As for people's suggestion of her needing a husband for any unwanted child. I'd never rule out JF having Tom marrying her for that reason. I just have a feeling he may end up in Edith's or Rose's direction one day. I only rule out Mary as a possibility.
Perhaps - if they say it's "what Sybil would have wanted".:D
And another thought - am I right that there hasn't been a trailer this week? I've only watched the footy on ITV this week (I managed to resist Cilla last night....) so haven't been around but it strikes me there's no trailer on the Downton website, just stills.
I never questioned Andorra's English - I questioned her telling me what "bluestocking" meant and using Wikipedia as a source, then Georgette Heyer.
And the order words are used is rather important, isn't it? :rolleyes:
I never told you what "bluestocking" meant. I simply ASKED if there wasn't a negative implication in it, because I had thought it was. I certainly never questioned you knowing better than I do.
And another thought - am I right that there hasn't been a trailer this week? I've only watched the footy on ITV this week (I managed to resist Cilla last night....) so haven't been around but it strikes me there's no trailer on the Downton website, just stills.
There has been a trailer. At least the one at the end of the episode. And the little clip with Mary, Tom and the children.
And another thought - am I right that there hasn't been a trailer this week? I've only watched the footy on ITV this week (I managed to resist Cilla last night....) so haven't been around but it strikes me there's no trailer on the Downton website, just stills
I never told you what "bluestocking" meant. I simply ASKED if there wasn't a negative implication in it, because I had thought it was. I certainly never questioned you knowing better than I do.
Then why question my use of it?
And, if you look back, I spoke of the character of Tom possibly ending up with a nice middle-class bluestocking.
I never referred to the character played by Daisy Lewis for the simple reason that she hasn't appeared in Downton yet so no-one can judge until she has.
Obviously I have no idea whether the character of Sarah Bunting is nice, middle class and/or a bluestocking.
Comments
She may be a modern woman but it is 1922 after all.
Every Downton Sunday is a pleasure for me to. I suspect that most viewers, the ones who are not contributing to message boards or forums, actually just enjoy it. They probably have moments when they laugh at some of the dialogue but other than that mostly enjoy the acting, the various storylines, the upstairs ladies dresses, the house and the cinematography. What more could you want for a Sunday evening, before the working week begins again.
I like that! Particularly if Gregson came back later...
Must say though, even with Aunt Rosamund's warning of doom, I'm not convinced Edith will get pregnant. There's already two babies at Downton! That nursery would be getting very crowded. Your (Bellemauve) suggestion would make a pregnancy storyline more feasible, but would mean
I think Edith's main storyline will be focused around that document in some way; problems arising and Gregson off-piste.
IF there is to be a baby this season I still expect it will be Anna sadly - though I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Her outburst to Mrs Hughes that she would kill herself if she was pregnant was a big, red flag - and let's face it, Downton isn't always the subtlest of shows.
Of course it might end up being a baby in the Christmas Special instead, courtesy of Edna.
Ugh. As bad as Barbara Cartland....
The DVDs are on sale for people to buy, wherever they are in the world. Those sales help fund future series.
Who are "they"? I doubt "they" have targeted you deliberately.
Not a single image has so far been released of Daisy Lewis's character by Carnival or ITV.
It'll be much more fun that them weeping together into their sherry.
I suspect that s4 Edith will indeed give as good as she gets. And Mr Pamuk may get a mention along the way....
It took the abdication scandal to change that (part in bold). It would be a disgrace but Edith could be kept hidden at Downton and while there would be rumours in the village etc, it would only the upper crust's
Interesting.
And will Evelyn Napier or Charles Blake be married or widowed? Surely not every thirtysomething man to arrive at Downton can be single in the postwar period when men were at such a premium?
I think you're right in saying that 'bluestocking' was often used in a negative way - especially by those people who didn't think that women should be educated!
It's a short leap from that attitude, to using descriptions like 'frumpy' and 'dowdy' - in an attempt to further undermine the bluestocking's 'femininity'.
I understood what you were saying when you referred to seeing characters 'on your screen' - even when they haven't yet appeared in one of the episodes which has been screend on ITV so far.
However, I think that it would be very interesting to see Tom fall for someone who is less conventionally beautiful than Sybil.
To my mind, Tom fell in love with Sybil the person - her spirit, her personality, her principles, and her willing to stand up for those principles. The fact that all of those assets were wrapped up in a beautiful packaging was just an added bonus!
I don't think that the character of Tom, as presented to us, is so shallow that he would judge someone purely on the outer packaging - be that age, height, class or anything else.
It would be completely in character for him to fall in love with another beautiful soul - even if that soul comes in an unconventional packaging.
I'm quite happy to wait and see what transpires
Well, I liked her and - as I said - it helped tremendously to learn English. So I can only recommend reading light lecture for everyone who wants to learn a foreign language even though I might have learned the wrong expression for one or the other word - as proven with "bluestocking" obviously.
You can't start with learning English reading Shakespeare
Oh, I have them all and not only in English, but in German, too, which is stupid since I hate the dubbing. I own the German Edition just for the subtitles because my family doesn't speak English as well as I do.
But I'm not ready to wait for the DVDs to come out. I watch every sunday and I'm not ashamed to do it.
Did I say it came from ITV or Carnival? But there were several articles in several online editions of the newspapers. So don't say there weren't pictures of her. There were plenty and I don't see why you would think she'd look better to me in official pictures?
Of course I'm interested in her, since Tom Branson is by far my favourite character and I was one of the few S/T shippers, who was actually looking forward for him to move on. I was hoping for him to meet an amazing, beautiful and interesting woman. Someone as amazing as Sybil was. Sybil was "a beauty inside and out" , a dream girl. Tom adored her and I was expecting someone along those lines. And why should I not? After all they cast handsome young men as love interest for Mary, too.
But on first look I was underwhelmed and disappointed with her in pictures. That's all I'm saying and btw, I'm not the only one. I have seen many people saying the same. So what? It's just my opinion and you won't change it. I'm perfectly fine with everyone else saying their first impression is great or that they're waiting to judge when they see her in her episodes. Fine.
In fact I hope my impression will improve if she turns out to be endgame. It would be a great pity if I had to watch him in a romantic storyline that I couldn't ship.
Well, as long as the "beautiful soul" is not boring, I don't mind. I think Allen can have chemistry with nearly every female, so I hope for the best.
But maybe best not to use as reference for the English language...
I was querying who "they" were who you say were "spamming" you with pictures.
You chose to look at them so moaning you're being spammed is absurd.
Ah, the sense of entitlement again.
Then don't look. No-one asked you to look at illegally obtained photographs.
There are some odd people out there - and frankly a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny number of Sybil/Tom fans out there on the internet are fanatical to the point of derangement. And I'd bet a pretty penny that every one whining about everything to do with their pet plotline watch illegally.
A ship is a vessel for the sea.
Downton is an ITV drama produced for UK audiences. The only ship so far has been the Titanic.
Would you be able to discuss the issue with Andorra in German, with the same fluency?
Andorra expresses herself in English very well indeed - with only the odd slight hiccup in terms of very small nuances.
However, as the Oxford dictionary is in agreement with her understanding that 'bluestocking' was often used in a derogatory sense, I think she has picked up that particular nuance pretty well:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bluestocking
I think when it comes to watching what is after all a pretty period drama that relies a great deal on beautiful costumes and sets and yes, people, to engage the audience, it is perfectly acceptable for viewers to want and expect physical beauty in certain members of the cast.
Mary and Matthew were popular and had chemistry in part because they were beautiful people. When they cast Mary's new love interests, they certainly looked for handsome actors. I have read an interview in which GN and MD said as much.
Lily James, who was quite transparently brought in as the rebellious youngest girl after Sybil died, is a beautiful young woman. Whoever is brought in as Tom's new love interest is following in Sybil's footsteps too, so one would naturally expect her to be very pretty and not older than he is.
This is not a movie or show about the plain girl who gets the better-looking guy. It never has been and there is no reason it should be now. That is not why people watch this show.
As for looking at pictures, I do not believe the pictures that were published of Tom meeting DL's character on the street were illegally obtained. The photographer apparently had very close access to the scene. They almost looked posed, to be frank. If the production team somehow let someone get THAT close without authorization, they really fell down on the job.
At any rate, what difference does it make how they were obtained? They clearly show the character's appearance, from a distance and up close. And in every production picture in which I have seen her - however obtained - she has looked too old for him and not even close to as pretty as JBF.
I have no trouble with a "bluestocking" or intellectual type. That sounds great to me and I don't associate it with "frumpy." Sybil was a politically minded and serious young woman. She was also beautiful. But she was the type who could look beautiful in a severe nurse's uniform with her hair hidden under a kerchief. There is no reason they could not have that again, no matter what sort of personality or interests the character has. They have their choice of actresses, God knows.
I just think it's ridiculous to say that a viewer who wants the show to provide the sort of entertainment that has made it successful - and that includes pretty people and places and clothes - is being "entitled." Viewers make the money for this show. They have every right to expect drama, comedy, pathos, romance and beauty.
And when a beloved character has died and a well-loved couple lost, no matter the reason, to replace her/it with someone who does not come close to the standard of beauty set by her predecessor would be a risky, baffling choice. It would be letting down a lot of viewers. Not those who don't care at all about looks. But look at it this way, would a viewer who is totally beauty-blind be disappointed if Tom's love interest WAS beautiful? Probably not. Those of us who want that for him again WOULD be disappointed if he were to settle for far less.
So the best way to make everyone happy is to take looks seriously into consideration, to the same degree they did for Lily James and Tom Cullen, etc. Anything else would just be sub-par work on the part of the casting department.
And getting back to this "sense of entitlement" thing? What are you saying, that viewers are not entitled to expect anything from the show? That if the show declines due to bad writing, bad casting, bad acting, etc., then it's just too bad and no one has a right to complain?
This is a two-way street. If the show wants success, it needs to deliver and that includes romance that is actually exciting and engaging. No doubt you will argue that the ratings are still high and will continue to be. Maybe. But if ratings and money are all that matter, that shows a lack of respect for the audience frankly. If the people involved don't care enough about it to want to recapture some of the magic that was lost, then they are letting down the people who are paying their salaries. And if I feel let down by bad casting, I have every right to say so.
Agreed
And I can't see any reason at all why you shouldn't watch Downton on a computer screen :cool:
I don't share all of the views you expressed, but I enjoyed reading your full post, which was argued with conviction and passion. I've cropped it simply to highlight the points I'm addressing.
I don't think Gregson will deliberately make a fool of her. I just think it won't work out for some reason. Edith probably is heading for another fall
The thing you have to admire about Edith is, she's had so many disappointments over the 10 years but she continues on and she does better and better along the way. She has real strength. So no matter what happens, even if she's pregnant, I think she'll make it through.
As for people's suggestion of her needing a husband for any unwanted child. I'd never rule out JF having Tom marrying her for that reason. I just have a feeling he may end up in Edith's or Rose's direction one day. I only rule out Mary as a possibility.
if they're going to do the "ugly duckling finding a prince" story, I wouldn't mind at all. But to think that likely would actually be unfair to the actress, because she is certainly no "ugly duckling".
She is attractive enough, don't get me wrong. I can't really explain it, it's maybe just that she looked a bit too old and a bit too boring. Maybe it was her expression (as I said, she was making cow eyes at him) which doesn't really speak for the "educated, spirited woman" theory.
I could see her as Tom's "Lavinia". You know, after evil Edna now one who is a bit too good?
But we'll see. Maybe there's more fire in her as the pictures suggest.
Oh, and thank you to everyone who defended my English. That was sweet of you
First, how do you know that's the plotline? Second, how do you why people watch the programme?
They're not production photographs. Nor were they staged.
Viewers have no right to expect anything. They may wish for certain things, but no right to expect anything. I'm afraid your
Letting down who? I honestly find this argument foolish.
. No, it isn't. You know NOTHING about Daisy Lewis's character. Come back after you've seen an episode with her and you may have a point but until then, whining is absurd.
To repeat, no-one has a right to complain. That doesn't mean people shouldn't complain but no-one has right to do it. Why would anyone think they have a "right"?
What? When has Downton shown a lack of respect? Because they've cast someone YOU don't like. Are you serious?
What magic has been lost? I think you need to realise not everyone thinks as you do. And thank goodness for that.
Your post makes me laugh. Fantasy land, love, fantasy land.
I never questioned Andorra's English - I questioned her telling me what "bluestocking" meant and using Wikipedia as a source, then Georgette Heyer.
And the order words are used is rather important, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Julian Fellowes has said something similar about Edith soldiering on despite the knocks.
Perhaps - if they say it's "what Sybil would have wanted".:D
And another thought - am I right that there hasn't been a trailer this week? I've only watched the footy on ITV this week (I managed to resist Cilla last night....) so haven't been around but it strikes me there's no trailer on the Downton website, just stills.
I never told you what "bluestocking" meant. I simply ASKED if there wasn't a negative implication in it, because I had thought it was. I certainly never questioned you knowing better than I do.
There has been a trailer. At least the one at the end of the episode. And the little clip with Mary, Tom and the children.
This is the only other trailer I know of is with the babies and I'm sure you've already seen it.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-releases/downton-abbey-ep5-2013-video#.Ul1aA1BJOSp
Then why question my use of it?
And, if you look back, I spoke of the character of Tom possibly ending up with a nice middle-class bluestocking.
I never referred to the character played by Daisy Lewis for the simple reason that she hasn't appeared in Downton yet so no-one can judge until she has.
Obviously I have no idea whether the character of Sarah Bunting is nice, middle class and/or a bluestocking.