He claimed that the 7/7 bombers had political target objectives, what is political about blowing up a bus?
They were attacking our political system, and claimed to be responding to decisions of our politicians, such as the Iraq war. Presumably that's what he meant. To me they were evil Islamic extremists.
He comes across as an apologist.
I do think that he is keen to recognise the role of the US government in the suffering of Muslims in the Middle East, but he is not as keen to acknowledge the roles of governments in the Muslim world.
It's not about not caring about how others feel, you'd totally expect the relatives of those lost in 9/11 to have opinions on things. But that's precisely why I don't think you can take those feelings into account - they're too emotional to think rationally.
I don't think there is any evidence to support that claim. They're just like other people in that they think different things. Some of them support the Park 51 project and others oppose it.
Someone who previously didn't believe in the death penalty, would probably be more likely to change their mind if a close friend or relative was murdered but that doesn't mean they'd then be more qualified to say whether or not we should reintroduce death by state.
At least the murderers will be jailed, but if it is felt that the sentences are too light, the views of the victims' family should be considered if the sentences are reviewed.
I don't think the suffering of families should be used as a political weapon, and I think both sides are guilty of trying to gain an advantage over their opponents by claiming to be representative of people who lost friends and relatives on 9/11.
if you're so opposed to the 'Ground Zero Mosque' why aren't you also arguing in favour of getting rid of the original mosque four blocks away. Or is it the two blocks extra that makes it acceptable for you?
I am not opposed to the building of a mosque near Ground Zero, but I don't think people who are or have links to Islamic extremists should be involved in the project.
If two blocks is too close to ground zero how about 1,800 miles away ? Well the good people of Murfreesboro, Tennessee seem to say a big fat no as they don't want a mosque built there either.
If two blocks is too close to ground zero how about 1,800 miles away ? Well the good people of Murfreesboro, Tennessee seem to say a big fat no as they don't want a mosque built there either.
Well these people need to grow up and realise they can't just say no to something they don't like. What nastiness this kind of thing brings out in people.
At least the murderers will be jailed, but if it is felt that the sentences are too light, the views of the victims' family should be considered if the sentences are reviewed.
I don't think the suffering of families should be used as a political weapon, and I think both sides are guilty of trying to gain an advantage over their opponents by claiming to be representative of people who lost friends and relatives on 9/11.
Amen to your last para. As for the first, this isn't really the point I was making. It wasn't about murderers and sentences. It was just an example to highlight how using grief and personal tragedy to set a precedent cannot be allowed to happen.
That is also true, but some Muslims are or have links to Islamic extremists, and I am not convinced that none of the Muslims involved in the Park 51 Project have no links to Islamic extremists.
some Muslims? how about the vast majority of Muslims....
given the tiny % of Muslims who are linked to terrorism, what makes you think that some involved with this project will have such links?
To respect the feelings of people who think it is too close to Ground 0. but I notice you go on to imply you don't care about their feelings.
The fact is there are too many people like you on both sides, who don't care about how other people feel. There are people who oppose the Park 51 Project who don't care about how Muslims feel and accuse all Muslims of being Islamic extremists, and there are people who agree with the Park 51 Project who unlike Torrid Affair dismiss everybody who opposes the mosque as either bigots, stupid or too emotional.
supposing people thought that all Muslims should leave the US, out of feelings for people who think that should happen?
if Islamic terrorists were setting up a meeting house they might have a point.
wns_195 , for goodness sake , what are you up too now
I'm not up to anything. I've just been expressing my views about the idea of a mosque near Ground 0, the involvement of people who are or who have links to extremists in the Park 51 Project, and my views on the extremists on and tactics of people on both sides.
some Muslims? how about the vast majority of Muslims....
There are people on the left who say that a minority of Muslims are extreme, and there are people on the right who say the majority of Muslims are extreme. The truth is that nobody knows how many Muslims are extreme. Finding out is not easy, as some Islamic extremists will try to give the impression that they are not extreme, so people won't suspect them of Islamic extremism. It doesn't matter to me whether the majority or a small minority of Muslims are extreme. What matters is that there are Islamic extremists who use Islam to justify their violent terrorism which includes suicide bombings, acid attacks on girls who want to go to school, executing people for watching football matches, attacking coaches because they're carrying cricket players to matches, banning radio stations from playing music, killing people for choosing not to be Muslims, etc.
given the tiny % of Muslims who are linked to terrorism, what makes you think that some involved with this project will have such links?
Those who are involved in the project have declined opportunities to rule out accepting funding from the Islamic extremists who govern Saudi Arabia and Iran. They don't agree with the US government about Hamas.
supposing people thought that all Muslims should leave the US, out of feelings for people who think that should happen?
That would be religious discrimination .Some opponents of the Park 51 Project seem to hate all Muslims and other people who are in some way different to them.
No it isn't. It is cold, insensitive and inconsiderate to disregard people's feelings, and I think people who do that probably apply uncaring and nasty attitudes in other areas of their lives. If we disregard the feelings of the families you disagree with, why not disregard the feelings of the people involved in the project and the people who support it too?
Interesting view considering your opinion on Moat.
So normal law-abiding moderate Muslims in New York are supposed to do what? Go and hang their head in shame on the outskirts of the city for something they have no responsibility over? That is ridiculous.
No, the poster didn't mention anything about how Muslims should act. A mosque shouldn't be built there. Like it or not, a mosque will forever be associated with what happened on 9/11, whether anyone likes it or not.
No, the poster didn't mention anything about how Muslims should act. A mosque shouldn't be built there. Like it or not, a mosque will forever be associated with what happened on 9/11, whether anyone likes it or not.
Do you associate mosques with the tube bombings as well?
No, the poster didn't mention anything about how Muslims should act. A mosque shouldn't be built there. Like it or not, a mosque will forever be associated with what happened on 9/11, whether anyone likes it or not.
In the way that a Catholic church will forever be associated with paedophilia?
Not everyone views Muslims and mosques as representations of evil incarnate.
No, the poster didn't mention anything about how Muslims should act. A mosque shouldn't be built there. Like it or not, a mosque will forever be associated with what happened on 9/11, whether anyone likes it or not.
You do realise it isn't being built on Ground Zero don't you? And that there's already a mosque in the vicinity that nobody seems to mind?
In the way that a Catholic church will forever be associated with paedophilia?
It will be for as long as it protects paedophile priests. Genuinely moderate Muslims have tried to distance themselves from Islamic extremists. They don't have links to Islamic extremists. Roman Catholics who claim to disapprove of paedophile priests still support the church that protects them. Therefore one could conclude that it would be more unfair to associate genuinely moderate Muslims with Islamic extremists than it would be to associate Roman Catholics with paedophile priests.
It will be for as long as it protects paedophile priests. Genuinely moderate Muslims have tried to distance themselves from Islamic extremists. They don't have links to Islamic extremists. Roman Catholics who claim to disapprove of paedophile priests still support the church that protects them. Therefore one could conclude that it would be more unfair to associate genuinely moderate Muslims with Islamic extremists than it would be to associate Roman Catholics with paedophile priests.
It will be for as long as it protects paedophile priests. Genuinely moderate Muslims have tried to distance themselves from Islamic extremists. They don't have links to Islamic extremists. Roman Catholics who claim to disapprove of paedophile priests still support the church that protects them. Therefore one could conclude that it would be more unfair to associate genuinely moderate Muslims with Islamic extremists than it would be to associate Roman Catholics with paedophile priests.
So...with that in mind, you now support the mosque.
To be honest, I'm kind of narked that all the time, I've been trying to have a rational argument with a Raoul Moat supporter
And oh look - it can only accommodate 20% of its members because of a problem with the building. Would be really handy for a similar organisation to open in the area.
Who said the 'Ground Zero' mosque wasn't 'needed'?
It's the families of the victims that started all this...and we have to be sensitive to their feelings...the mosque was set to open on September 11th also...
I am not saying they should the move the mosque but would they put up a monument to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor? ....they also trying to build a huge casino on the battlefield at Gettysburg...
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
I wish the families of those who were killed in 911 were more healed...I say this as someone who lost a lot of family and friends myself but clearly they are still sensitive to this and that has to be respected and discussed
And oh look - it can only accommodate 20% of its members because of a problem with the building. Would be really handy for a similar organisation to open in the area.
Who said the 'Ground Zero' mosque wasn't 'needed'?
And they was evicted in May 2008, Anyone would think that some people don't like Muslims in NYC.
It's the families of the victims that started all this...and we have to be sensitive to their feelings...the mosque was set to open on September 11th also...
Really ? Has there been some evidence to back this claim up or has just another pleb been sucked in by UK tabloid style claptrap ?
It's the families of the victims that started all this...and we have to be sensitive to their feelings...the mosque was set to open on September 11th also...
I am not saying they should the move the mosque but would they put up a monument to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor? ....they also trying to build a huge casino on the battlefield at Gettysburg...
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
I wish the families of those who were killed in 911 were more healed...I say this as someone who lost a lot of family and friends myself but clearly they are still sensitive to this and that has to be respected and discussed
The Muslim leaders don't need to say anything about September 11th. They weren't involved in it, it has nothing to do with them and is meaningless in the context. Every time a Roman Catholic church is built, it doesn't require a disclaimer first that they denounce peadophilia before opening it.
As for the rest of your post - the comparisons are meaningless. A monument to the Japanse at Pearl Harbour is just a ridiculous overstretch. A monument to what? A mosque is a functional building which would be for local Muslims to use. You know, Muslims who are actually American and live in New York?
And the opening on September 11th stuff is all conjecture.
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
It's the families of the victims that started all this...and we have to be sensitive to their feelings...the mosque was set to open on September 11th also...
I am not saying they should the move the mosque but would they put up a monument to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor? ....they also trying to build a huge casino on the battlefield at Gettysburg...
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
I wish the families of those who were killed in 911 were more healed...I say this as someone who lost a lot of family and friends myself but clearly they are still sensitive to this and that has to be respected and discussed
What crap. I feel terribly for the families of 9/11. Their pain must be immense. However, their pain is not above the Constitution of the United States of America. I'm not sorry either. When I was a kid, I was taught to respect the Constitution and how important the Bill of Rights is. Grieving families are not included in that. How long should it be, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years?
Mt Rushmore was a sacred place for the Lakota, but that didn't stop developers from blasting the presidents' faces into it.
I'll assume you are white and male. Do you apologise for everything a white male does, when one commits some sort of atrocity? Why is it always left to minorities to apologise when one of their number does something? It's ridiculous.
What crap. I feel terribly for the families of 9/11. Their pain must be immense. However, their pain is not above the Constitution of the United States of America. I'm not sorry either. When I was a kid, I was taught to respect the Constitution and how important the Bill of Rights is. Grieving families are not included in that. How long should it be, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years?
Mt Rushmore was a sacred place for the Lakota, but that didn't stop developers from blasting the presidents' faces into it.
I'll assume you are white and male. Do you apologise for everything a white male does, when one commits some sort of atrocity? Why is it always left to minorities to apologise when one of their number does something? It's ridiculous.
I am in NYC right now....went to college in the states as well...and know a few Muslims who are my friends...
I think some of you are missing the point...there was no big public outcry from the Muslim community when 911 happened.... the Vatican continually condemns priests now....and they should....which doesn't seem to be enough for many people btw...
The Japanese citizens alive now had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor yet you won't see any tribute to the Japanese in any way erected there...because it's too sensitive...
Maybe these sensitivities should not exist at this stage and I don't condemn the Mosque but it certainly needs to be open to debate and discussion....I personally know it's not appropriate to ask the Mosque not to be built there but everyone should be heard on the issue...and now it's the democrats backing away from Obama on it...but no one brings that up...Why are they backing away from it?
The culture in this country is very different than in the UK and until have you been here for awhile and for me it was living here for four years and frequent visits...it's important to understand they see it differently...
My personal thing about this is...I was shocked the families were so angry about this....it just shows me a lot of them have not healed from their losses yet and it's been a long time..
But at the same time...it never hurts to acknowledge the pain someone is in and discuss it...instead of acting like "SO WHAT?"
It's the families of the victims that started all this...and we have to be sensitive to their feelings...the mosque was set to open on September 11th also...
I am not saying they should the move the mosque but would they put up a monument to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor? ....they also trying to build a huge casino on the battlefield at Gettysburg...
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
I wish the families of those who were killed in 911 were more healed...I say this as someone who lost a lot of family and friends myself but clearly they are still sensitive to this and that has to be respected and discussed
No, it's SOME families that started it--not all familes of 9/11 victims are opposed:
As for the Pope, there's a rather large difference between the head of an entire religion under whose direction the priests serve and a non-centralized religion like Islam.
Comments
They were attacking our political system, and claimed to be responding to decisions of our politicians, such as the Iraq war. Presumably that's what he meant. To me they were evil Islamic extremists.
I do think that he is keen to recognise the role of the US government in the suffering of Muslims in the Middle East, but he is not as keen to acknowledge the roles of governments in the Muslim world.
I presume they thought he was a Muslim because he's black. the video gives the impression that the people attacking him are racists.
I don't think there is any evidence to support that claim. They're just like other people in that they think different things. Some of them support the Park 51 project and others oppose it.
At least the murderers will be jailed, but if it is felt that the sentences are too light, the views of the victims' family should be considered if the sentences are reviewed.
I don't think the suffering of families should be used as a political weapon, and I think both sides are guilty of trying to gain an advantage over their opponents by claiming to be representative of people who lost friends and relatives on 9/11.
I am not opposed to the building of a mosque near Ground Zero, but I don't think people who are or have links to Islamic extremists should be involved in the project.
You are becoming so boring.
Well these people need to grow up and realise they can't just say no to something they don't like. What nastiness this kind of thing brings out in people.
Amen to your last para. As for the first, this isn't really the point I was making. It wasn't about murderers and sentences. It was just an example to highlight how using grief and personal tragedy to set a precedent cannot be allowed to happen.
some Muslims? how about the vast majority of Muslims....
given the tiny % of Muslims who are linked to terrorism, what makes you think that some involved with this project will have such links?
supposing people thought that all Muslims should leave the US, out of feelings for people who think that should happen?
if Islamic terrorists were setting up a meeting house they might have a point.
but they're not, so really they don't.
Iain
I'm not up to anything. I've just been expressing my views about the idea of a mosque near Ground 0, the involvement of people who are or who have links to extremists in the Park 51 Project, and my views on the extremists on and tactics of people on both sides.
There are people on the left who say that a minority of Muslims are extreme, and there are people on the right who say the majority of Muslims are extreme. The truth is that nobody knows how many Muslims are extreme. Finding out is not easy, as some Islamic extremists will try to give the impression that they are not extreme, so people won't suspect them of Islamic extremism. It doesn't matter to me whether the majority or a small minority of Muslims are extreme. What matters is that there are Islamic extremists who use Islam to justify their violent terrorism which includes suicide bombings, acid attacks on girls who want to go to school, executing people for watching football matches, attacking coaches because they're carrying cricket players to matches, banning radio stations from playing music, killing people for choosing not to be Muslims, etc.
Those who are involved in the project have declined opportunities to rule out accepting funding from the Islamic extremists who govern Saudi Arabia and Iran. They don't agree with the US government about Hamas.
That would be religious discrimination .Some opponents of the Park 51 Project seem to hate all Muslims and other people who are in some way different to them.
Interesting view considering your opinion on Moat.
No, the poster didn't mention anything about how Muslims should act. A mosque shouldn't be built there. Like it or not, a mosque will forever be associated with what happened on 9/11, whether anyone likes it or not.
Do you associate mosques with the tube bombings as well?
In the way that a Catholic church will forever be associated with paedophilia?
Not everyone views Muslims and mosques as representations of evil incarnate.
You do realise it isn't being built on Ground Zero don't you? And that there's already a mosque in the vicinity that nobody seems to mind?
It will be for as long as it protects paedophile priests. Genuinely moderate Muslims have tried to distance themselves from Islamic extremists. They don't have links to Islamic extremists. Roman Catholics who claim to disapprove of paedophile priests still support the church that protects them. Therefore one could conclude that it would be more unfair to associate genuinely moderate Muslims with Islamic extremists than it would be to associate Roman Catholics with paedophile priests.
So...with that in mind, you now support the mosque.
To be honest, I'm kind of narked that all the time, I've been trying to have a rational argument with a Raoul Moat supporter
http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/
And oh look - it can only accommodate 20% of its members because of a problem with the building. Would be really handy for a similar organisation to open in the area.
Who said the 'Ground Zero' mosque wasn't 'needed'?
I am not saying they should the move the mosque but would they put up a monument to the Japanese at Pearl Harbor? ....they also trying to build a huge casino on the battlefield at Gettysburg...
Now Americans have that 10 minute attention span..of course the Muslims building the Mosque were not involved with 911 but not one leader of the Muslim Community has come out and PUBLICLY denounced the actions of those on 911....and it's interesting the Pope gets slammed if he doesn't defrock priests and condemn them backwards and forwards and then he still gets slammed...
The Muslim leaders seem to be under no pressure to speak out against any sort of terrorism committed by extremists...
I wish the families of those who were killed in 911 were more healed...I say this as someone who lost a lot of family and friends myself but clearly they are still sensitive to this and that has to be respected and discussed
And they was evicted in May 2008, Anyone would think that some people don't like Muslims in NYC.
Really ? Has there been some evidence to back this claim up or has just another pleb been sucked in by UK tabloid style claptrap ?
The Muslim leaders don't need to say anything about September 11th. They weren't involved in it, it has nothing to do with them and is meaningless in the context. Every time a Roman Catholic church is built, it doesn't require a disclaimer first that they denounce peadophilia before opening it.
As for the rest of your post - the comparisons are meaningless. A monument to the Japanse at Pearl Harbour is just a ridiculous overstretch. A monument to what? A mosque is a functional building which would be for local Muslims to use. You know, Muslims who are actually American and live in New York?
And the opening on September 11th stuff is all conjecture.
What crap. I feel terribly for the families of 9/11. Their pain must be immense. However, their pain is not above the Constitution of the United States of America. I'm not sorry either. When I was a kid, I was taught to respect the Constitution and how important the Bill of Rights is. Grieving families are not included in that. How long should it be, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years?
Mt Rushmore was a sacred place for the Lakota, but that didn't stop developers from blasting the presidents' faces into it.
I'll assume you are white and male. Do you apologise for everything a white male does, when one commits some sort of atrocity? Why is it always left to minorities to apologise when one of their number does something? It's ridiculous.
Amen to that.
I think some of you are missing the point...there was no big public outcry from the Muslim community when 911 happened.... the Vatican continually condemns priests now....and they should....which doesn't seem to be enough for many people btw...
The Japanese citizens alive now had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor yet you won't see any tribute to the Japanese in any way erected there...because it's too sensitive...
Maybe these sensitivities should not exist at this stage and I don't condemn the Mosque but it certainly needs to be open to debate and discussion....I personally know it's not appropriate to ask the Mosque not to be built there but everyone should be heard on the issue...and now it's the democrats backing away from Obama on it...but no one brings that up...Why are they backing away from it?
The culture in this country is very different than in the UK and until have you been here for awhile and for me it was living here for four years and frequent visits...it's important to understand they see it differently...
My personal thing about this is...I was shocked the families were so angry about this....it just shows me a lot of them have not healed from their losses yet and it's been a long time..
But at the same time...it never hurts to acknowledge the pain someone is in and discuss it...instead of acting like "SO WHAT?"
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/25/new.york.islamic.center.rally/index.html?hpt=T2
As for the Pope, there's a rather large difference between the head of an entire religion under whose direction the priests serve and a non-centralized religion like Islam.