But the UK doesn't subsidise our "free" healthcare system or tuition fees. That's a lie. The costs are more than offset by how much Scotland sends to the UK treasury. England (for example) could afford the same things if you'd bother voting for a party which prioritises them. Instead, you're happy with governments that prefer to spend your (and our) money on other things.
So Scotland can afford all of the above without using a single penny of English money? Sounds like Scotland is effectively independent anyway then. In which case as Zaphodski said you'll barely notice any difference if you vote for independence except for being able to put out your own Olympic team and having your own 24 hr tv broadcasters.
As for voting for a party in England who priorities free tuition fees who do you propose we vote for? Well for starters it turned out the Lib Dems were in favour of them after all. We did vote for a Labour government but we didn't imagine Tony Blair would introduce tuition fees in England. Of course, he would've failed to get the bill passed as the majority of English MPs voted against it but he still got it through. Guess how he did it.;-) (if you need a clue read post #70 from clinch)
David Bowie made the mistake of saying that the other day.
“What a
Bowie has turned out to be. What gives him the right to tell Scotland what to do when he doesn’t even pay taxes over here,” one wrote.
“So he says ---- all about spiralling poverty, the bedroom tax, and tax dodging companies but has to get ‘political’ about Scotland? Wrap it you out of touch has-been,” read another.
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online Nationalists after offering views on the Scottish independence.
Sir Chris Hoy, six-time Olympic gold medallist, was called a "bigoted anti-Scot" and a "traitor" after pointing out that most Scottish athletes rely on facilities in the rest of the UK.
Meanwhile Sean Connery is applying another coat of sun lotion in the Caribbean.
David Bowie made the mistake of saying that the other day.
“What a
Bowie has turned out to be. What gives him the right to tell Scotland what to do when he doesn’t even pay taxes over here,” one wrote.
“So he says ---- all about spiralling poverty, the bedroom tax, and tax dodging companies but has to get ‘political’ about Scotland? Wrap it you out of touch has-been,” read another.
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online Nationalists after offering views on the Scottish independence.
Sir Chris Hoy, six-time Olympic gold medallist, was called a "bigoted anti-Scot" and a "traitor" after pointing out that most Scottish athletes rely on facilities in the rest of the UK.
Brian Cox made the mistake of answering questions put to him regarding his belief in independence last month. The responses to the video on Youtube include:
England will make all access to Scotland difficult and costly and will destroy the economy of Scotland. EU will not be able to assist because of its own rules on joining. EU needs England it does not need Scotland. Go ahead Brian Vote YES for POVERTTY and IRRELEVANCE.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, JUST ****ING LEAVE. ALL I HERE IS WHINING SCOTS SAYING ENGLAND THIS AND ENGLAND THAT. JUST GO.
For every so called inventor and engineer the Scotch trot out there are a hundred thousand ignorant drunks.
In the name of God go! just a load of whinging haggis gobberling gobshites England says good riddance better off without the calidonian shitehawks British by birth English by the grace of God
Good to see Osbourne won't allow the Scots to keep the pound if they decide on independence. It'll be a killer blow to their economic stability and we might see Scottish people begging for a reversal. We'd of course say no and they would end up selling their land off to China. Result.
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online British Nationalists after offering views on Scottish independence. The following are Twitter comments taken from the "BritNat Bot" which logs the vitriol poured out by British Nationalists.
nicola sturgeon is a fkin tosser
You, Sir, are an idiot and a ****. Hope your referendum fails by a landslide. ****.
@TheLastLeg@AlexSalmond is a baw bag n talks out his arse n the majority of scots see through his bull shite #naw #british 🇬🇧
You can stick your independence up your arse ✌️✌️ 🇬🇧🇬🇧 **** you salmond & your wee lesbian sidekick sturgeon!! #RuleBritannia
Now when can we expect the mainstream media to hold these disgusting, abusive and unpleasant people to account?
Brian Cox made the mistake of answering questions put to him regarding his belief in independence last month. The responses to the video on Youtube include:
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online British Nationalists after offering views on Scottish independence. The following are Twitter comments taken from the "BritNat Bot" which logs the vitriol poured out by British Nationalists.
Now when can we expect the mainstream media to hold these disgusting, abusive and unpleasant people to account?
Sorry but, as I suspect you know full well, you're being rather disingenuous here. I mean using Youtube comments as evidence of anti-Scottish sentiment?! Come off it. One can easily trawl through the internet and find similar comments made by the Scottish about the English.
Brian Cox made the mistake of answering questions put to him regarding his belief in independence last month. The responses to the video on Youtube include:
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online British Nationalists after offering views on Scottish independence. The following are Twitter comments taken from the "BritNat Bot" which logs the vitriol poured out by British Nationalists.
Now when can we expect the mainstream media to hold these disgusting, abusive and unpleasant people to account?
Goodness me! This is really bringing out the dregs on both sides, isn't it, which is bad news, because these feelings aren't just going to disappear after the vote.
Sorry but, as I suspect you know full well, you're being rather disingenuous here. I mean using Youtube comments as evidence of anti-Scottish sentiment?! Come off it. One can easily trawl through the internet and find similar comments made by the Scottish about the English.
Indeed - and my point is that that is exactly what the media has been doing, and using the unpleasant comments of anti-English internet trolls to denigrate the "Yes" campaign. The Daily Mail even launched a witch-hunt of "cybernats", tracking down the authors of statements they believe to have come from the more vitriolic elements of independence voters. Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale even wrote a column for the Mail decrying her 'bullying' on Twitter at the hands of "cybernats" (complete with obligatory picture of her gazing, distraught, at the camera). Nary a word, however, has been published about the sheer nastiness aimed at Scots who advocate independence.
Goodness me! This is really bringing out the dregs on both sides, isn't it, which is bad news, because these feelings aren't just going to disappear after the vote.
Edit - The quotes are missing.
That always happens on DS, I think. One can't quote a post which contains quotes without the latter disappearing.
It does seem a bit cheeky of some Scots to claim that the tax income from 'their' oil in fairly recent years is spread over the whole UK, when over much of history (AFAIK) UK has sent money north to them. Still, I've never been able to get angry over minor differences in costs, 'subsidies' etc. as we're one nation.
If Scottish MPs outrageously used their right to vote on English issues, I might raise some ire, but it would need to be blatent.
Och no! Didn't you realise? The Scots have never received anything from the Union. Not a penny. Not a single bean. Not a single improvement. Not a single thought or idea. The English have done nothing but steal Scotland's wealth and have given nothing in return except contempt!
Scotland was forced to involve itself in the evil of the 'English' Empire. There were never any Scottish industrialists who grew richer than Croesus on the spoils of England's industrial revolution. Those south of the border just grew fat on the blood of Scotland as, like a vast vampire bat, we sucked the country dry, leaving it with nothing except its pride and its sporrans!
;-)
I'm perfectly happy for the Scottish to have their independence. What ruins the entire debate for me is the grotesque historical distortions that some use to sell their arguments. Scotland has done very nicely out of the Union, thank you very much. If they now want to be independent then that's great but don't cloud the issues with vast clods of bulls**t about what's happened in the past.
Indeed - and my point is that that is exactly what the media has been doing, and using the unpleasant comments of anti-English internet trolls to denigrate the "Yes" campaign. The Daily Mail even launched a witch-hunt of "cybernats", tracking down the authors of statements they believe to have come from the more vitriolic elements of independence voters. Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale even wrote a column for the Mail decrying her 'bullying' on Twitter at the hands of "cybernats" (complete with obligatory picture of her gazing, distraught, at the camera). Nary a word, however, has been published about the sheer nastiness aimed at Scots who advocate independence.
It's the Daily Mail!! What do you expect?? It's not just people north of the border who despise it.
Och no! Didn't you realise? The Scots have never received anything from the Union. Not a penny. Not a single bean. Not a single improvement. Not a single thought or idea. The English have done nothing but steal Scotland's wealth and have given nothing in return except contempt!
Scotland was forced to involve itself in the evil of the 'English' Empire. There were never any Scottish industrialists who grew richer than Croesus on the spoils of England's industrial revolution. Those south of the border just grew fat on the blood of Scotland as, like a vast vampire bat, we sucked the country dry, leaving it with nothing except its pride and its sporrans!
;-)
I'm perfectly happy for the Scottish to have their independence. What ruins the entire debate for me is the grotesque historical distortions that some use to sell their arguments. Scotland has done very nicely out of the Union, thank you very much. If they now want to be independent then that's great but don't cloud the issues with vast clods of bulls**t about what's happened in the past.
As you appear to just have completely invented those distortions, I'm amazed that they so ruin the debate for you. Can you point out where anyone has actually suggested that Scotland has never received anything from the Union and was forced into participating in the evils of Empire? These "vast clods of bullshit" seem to be entirely of your own invention, unless you have some proof otherwise.
As you appear to just have completely invented those distortions, I'm amazed that they so ruin the debate for you. Can you point out where anyone has actually suggested that Scotland has never received anything from the Union and was forced into participating in the evils of Empire? These "vast clods of bullshit" seem to be entirely of your own invention, unless you have some proof otherwise.
I've invented nothing. Vast tracts of the debate are based around the implication that England has screwed Scotland for 300 years and you've had enough. If you can't see it then that's not my fault and it's certainly not my job to remove the scales from your eyes.
Extra Revenue = Via the new "English Transit Tax" on Scottish truckers trying to get to the Channel Tunnel and then back to Scotland from the continent.
Thousands of jobs = In Northern England when construction of New Hadrian's Wall along the real border begins.
Downscaled Weather Reports = On the BBC, which will only cover the streamlined UK. Just like now when the BBC ignores the existence of any towns or cities in Eire.
Can you point out where anyone has actually suggested that Scotland has never received anything from the Union and was forced into participating in the evils of Empire?
Been posted here by some Scottish nationalists, who are apparently under the impression that Scotland was a victim of British imperialsm, rather than a willing collaborator.
I've invented nothing. Vast tracts of the debate are based around the implication that England has screwed Scotland for 300 years and you've had enough. If you can't see it then that's not my fault and it's certainly not my job to remove the scales from your eyes.
Then it should be easy for you to prove these assertions. Otherwise, it rather appears that you've just ivented "vast tracts of the debate" in order to call them bullshit. I'm afraid that entirely is your fault.
Many Scots undoubtedly did very well out of the UK (and many Scottish politicians still do) but there's no point clinging on to past glories. The Union doesn't work for a lot of people now. That's why this debate is taking place now. I've certainly never seen anyone espouse the nonsensical beliefs you claim to have seen.
Been posted here by some Scottish nationalists, who are apparently under the impression that Scotland was a victim of British imperialsm, rather than a willing collaborator.
No, I don't keep exhaustive records of the posts of other members, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging for them, but believe me, they have been posted.
No, I don't keep exhaustive records of the posts of other members, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging for them, but believe me, they have been posted.
I'll have to take your word for it. I've been posting here for years now and I can't recall anyone suggesting that Scotland and Scottish people have never benefited from the Union, or were forced into participating in the UK's imperial ambitions. The whole point of the referendum is that many feel the Union no longer works for its constituent members - not that it never did. In fact, one of the lynchpins of the whole debate is that our MPs do very well out of the Union and so care more about maintaining it than they do about Scotland's future.
I'll have to take your word for it. I've been posting here for years now and I can't recall anyone suggesting that Scotland and Scottish people have never benefited from the Union, or were forced into participating in the UK's imperial ambitions. The whole point of the referendum is that many feel the Union no longer works for its constituent members - not that it never did. In fact, one of the lynchpins of the whole debate is that our MPs do very well out of the Union and so care more about maintaining it than they do about Scotland's future.
The problem in this world is that government in general doesn't work for most of society, unless you happen to be very rich, and those parts of a state that do work (welfare, healthcare, etc) are being attacked and eroded. What flag you live under doesn't matter. The problems are systematic to politics. The whole world needs a bonfire of the vanities (in this case, the vanities are financial corporate greed and the politicians they own). Nationalism is just a way of distracting people.
I've invented nothing. Vast tracts of the debate are based around the implication that England has screwed Scotland for 300 years and you've had enough. If you can't see it then that's not my fault and it's certainly not my job to remove the scales from your eyes.
No, I don't keep exhaustive records of the posts of other members, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging for them, but believe me, they have been posted.
Thought the burden of proof was on the accuser? Lawyers you two would not make!
The problem in this world is that government in general doesn't work for most of society, unless you happen to be very rich, and those parts of a state that do work (welfare, healthcare, etc) are being attacked and eroded. What flag you live under doesn't matter. The problems are systematic to politics. The whole world needs a bonfire of the vanities (in this case, the vanities are financial corporate greed and the politicians they own). Nationalism is just a way of distracting people.
Therein lies the point - many of the 'leading lights' (har har) of the Better Together campaign are people who either do very well out of the Union or have an eye on the benefits of Westminster. Leaving the UK government and its perpetual two party horse race at least offers the opportunity of trying something different. Will it work? That will be up to future Scottish governments (and therefore the Scottish electorate). Remaining in the Union is essentially acceding to the ideological dominance of parties which, as you say, seem happy to erode those parts of the state which do work.
No, I don't keep exhaustive records of the posts of other members, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging for them, but believe me, they have been posted.
I'd agree with you there. I've seen several posts just in the last few months claiming much the same.
One poster simply linked and posted text regarding the Highland clearances. There was no explanation with it and it was posted simply to emphasise what England has done to poor Scotland.
They obviously omitted the fact that the clearances were perpetuated by Scots on Scots.
Some nationalists are determined to write their version of history where a Scotland was colonised and has fought for freedom ever since.
The reality was that Scotland entered willingly into the Union and have been more than willing partners since.
Unexpected surge in Welsh tourism as rUK decides not to bother going abroad for a short break
Wales...ancient castles, snow-capped mountains, glorious beaches...and no midges.;-)
Seriously, if you lived in the rUK and didn't have a passport, wouldn't that mean you couldn't visit Scotland? I'm pretty sure you need one to get into Ireland.
And that works in reverse too, of course. Wouldn't a passport (Scottish or UK) be required for anyone to leave Scotland?
A standard adult first passport or renewal costs £72.50, .... Child passports cost £46 by post
Comments
As for voting for a party in England who priorities free tuition fees who do you propose we vote for? Well for starters it turned out the Lib Dems were in favour of them after all. We did vote for a Labour government but we didn't imagine Tony Blair would introduce tuition fees in England. Of course, he would've failed to get the bill passed as the majority of English MPs voted against it but he still got it through. Guess how he did it.;-) (if you need a clue read post #70 from clinch)
Meanwhile Sean Connery is applying another coat of sun lotion in the Caribbean.
No Scottish football results on British TV.
Not having to pretend that what is the Scottish second division, or in English, two pub teams, is of any significance.
Brian Cox made the mistake of answering questions put to him regarding his belief in independence last month. The responses to the video on Youtube include:
This isn't the first time public figures have faced the wrath of online British Nationalists after offering views on Scottish independence. The following are Twitter comments taken from the "BritNat Bot" which logs the vitriol poured out by British Nationalists.
Now when can we expect the mainstream media to hold these disgusting, abusive and unpleasant people to account?
Sorry but, as I suspect you know full well, you're being rather disingenuous here. I mean using Youtube comments as evidence of anti-Scottish sentiment?! Come off it. One can easily trawl through the internet and find similar comments made by the Scottish about the English.
Goodness me! This is really bringing out the dregs on both sides, isn't it, which is bad news, because these feelings aren't just going to disappear after the vote.
Edit - The quotes are missing.
Indeed - and my point is that that is exactly what the media has been doing, and using the unpleasant comments of anti-English internet trolls to denigrate the "Yes" campaign. The Daily Mail even launched a witch-hunt of "cybernats", tracking down the authors of statements they believe to have come from the more vitriolic elements of independence voters. Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale even wrote a column for the Mail decrying her 'bullying' on Twitter at the hands of "cybernats" (complete with obligatory picture of her gazing, distraught, at the camera). Nary a word, however, has been published about the sheer nastiness aimed at Scots who advocate independence.
That always happens on DS, I think. One can't quote a post which contains quotes without the latter disappearing.
Och no! Didn't you realise? The Scots have never received anything from the Union. Not a penny. Not a single bean. Not a single improvement. Not a single thought or idea. The English have done nothing but steal Scotland's wealth and have given nothing in return except contempt!
Scotland was forced to involve itself in the evil of the 'English' Empire. There were never any Scottish industrialists who grew richer than Croesus on the spoils of England's industrial revolution. Those south of the border just grew fat on the blood of Scotland as, like a vast vampire bat, we sucked the country dry, leaving it with nothing except its pride and its sporrans!
;-)
I'm perfectly happy for the Scottish to have their independence. What ruins the entire debate for me is the grotesque historical distortions that some use to sell their arguments. Scotland has done very nicely out of the Union, thank you very much. If they now want to be independent then that's great but don't cloud the issues with vast clods of bulls**t about what's happened in the past.
It's the Daily Mail!! What do you expect?? It's not just people north of the border who despise it.
As you appear to just have completely invented those distortions, I'm amazed that they so ruin the debate for you. Can you point out where anyone has actually suggested that Scotland has never received anything from the Union and was forced into participating in the evils of Empire? These "vast clods of bullshit" seem to be entirely of your own invention, unless you have some proof otherwise.
I've invented nothing. Vast tracts of the debate are based around the implication that England has screwed Scotland for 300 years and you've had enough. If you can't see it then that's not my fault and it's certainly not my job to remove the scales from your eyes.
Thousands of jobs = In Northern England when construction of New Hadrian's Wall along the real border begins.
Downscaled Weather Reports = On the BBC, which will only cover the streamlined UK. Just like now when the BBC ignores the existence of any towns or cities in Eire.
Been posted here by some Scottish nationalists, who are apparently under the impression that Scotland was a victim of British imperialsm, rather than a willing collaborator.
Then it should be easy for you to prove these assertions. Otherwise, it rather appears that you've just ivented "vast tracts of the debate" in order to call them bullshit. I'm afraid that entirely is your fault.
Many Scots undoubtedly did very well out of the UK (and many Scottish politicians still do) but there's no point clinging on to past glories. The Union doesn't work for a lot of people now. That's why this debate is taking place now. I've certainly never seen anyone espouse the nonsensical beliefs you claim to have seen.
Not me then, for a change.
Really - could you point them out?
No, I don't keep exhaustive records of the posts of other members, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging for them, but believe me, they have been posted.
I'll have to take your word for it. I've been posting here for years now and I can't recall anyone suggesting that Scotland and Scottish people have never benefited from the Union, or were forced into participating in the UK's imperial ambitions. The whole point of the referendum is that many feel the Union no longer works for its constituent members - not that it never did. In fact, one of the lynchpins of the whole debate is that our MPs do very well out of the Union and so care more about maintaining it than they do about Scotland's future.
The problem in this world is that government in general doesn't work for most of society, unless you happen to be very rich, and those parts of a state that do work (welfare, healthcare, etc) are being attacked and eroded. What flag you live under doesn't matter. The problems are systematic to politics. The whole world needs a bonfire of the vanities (in this case, the vanities are financial corporate greed and the politicians they own). Nationalism is just a way of distracting people.
Thought the burden of proof was on the accuser? Lawyers you two would not make!
Therein lies the point - many of the 'leading lights' (har har) of the Better Together campaign are people who either do very well out of the Union or have an eye on the benefits of Westminster. Leaving the UK government and its perpetual two party horse race at least offers the opportunity of trying something different. Will it work? That will be up to future Scottish governments (and therefore the Scottish electorate). Remaining in the Union is essentially acceding to the ideological dominance of parties which, as you say, seem happy to erode those parts of the state which do work.
I'd agree with you there. I've seen several posts just in the last few months claiming much the same.
One poster simply linked and posted text regarding the Highland clearances. There was no explanation with it and it was posted simply to emphasise what England has done to poor Scotland.
They obviously omitted the fact that the clearances were perpetuated by Scots on Scots.
Some nationalists are determined to write their version of history where a Scotland was colonised and has fought for freedom ever since.
The reality was that Scotland entered willingly into the Union and have been more than willing partners since.
Wales...ancient castles, snow-capped mountains, glorious beaches...and no midges.;-)
Seriously, if you lived in the rUK and didn't have a passport, wouldn't that mean you couldn't visit Scotland? I'm pretty sure you need one to get into Ireland.
And that works in reverse too, of course. Wouldn't a passport (Scottish or UK) be required for anyone to leave Scotland?
although I see they're free if you're over 85