And what is accomplished by claiming it is? All of this has been extensively discussed already, quite a few times. What does become clear though, yet again, is that the reasons many think are why there was OTT dislike don't really add up.
And what is accomplished by claiming it is? All of this has been extensively discussed already, quite a few times. What does become clear though, yet again, is that the reasons many think are why there was OTT dislike don't really add up.
What's accomplished by you continually dismissing any remotely negative opinion on Grace as false and stating your own as absolute fact?
What's accomplished by you continually dismissing any remotely negative opinion on Grace as false and stating your own as absolute fact?
I don't do either of those things. I don't disagree with reasonable negative opinions of Grace that fit what was actually shown during bb7; and I don't say anything is an absolute fact (whatever that is). I don't always put "imo" etc all over the place, but neither did the post I was answering.
Almost all of this is distorted, exaggerated, or both. One would never guess from that post that, for example, she embraced various HMs after she threw the water and before throwing out, or that she acknowledged her bitchy behaviour in her exit interview. She didn't mutter in her conversation with Ash when she came back, much less mutter what you put as a direct quote. She wasn't mad at Susie being a stripper. And so on.
She only went back to embrace a few more Housemates after she literally skipped toward the door with a shit-eating grin on her face. And that really doesn't change anything because her only retort was ":rolleyes: get over it Aisleyne" which really exemplifies her wit.
She only acknowledged her bitchiness outside of the house. Inside of the house she nominated others for bitching despite being the biggest bitch, shamed others for wanting to do magazine spreads yet immediately posed nude for Nuts after her eviction, and avoided confrontation like fellow weak bitches Speidi. She only bitched in her own comfort behind people's backs and if you really think she was a great HM who should've lasted longer, I counter that with Caroline Wharram.
Grace literally said "Well she was a mother figure who stripp-- oh nothing" in trying to justify throwing water on her (after already posing nude in Nuts at this point.) You're right that she didn't mutter though, she whined which is even worse. In typical Grace fashion she avoided any sort of confrontation because "well it's my 21st and I don't want to ruin it" omfg what an amazing fierce bitch goddess
I don't do either of those things. I don't disagree with reasonable negative opinions of Grace that fit what was actually shown during bb7; and I don't say anything is an absolute fact (whatever that is). I don't always put "imo" etc all over the place, but neither did the post I was answering.
You called someone's opinion on Grace "ridiculous". Told another they were incorrect in saying Grace had no nice side, when they put it down as a difference of opinion you still disagreed and stated they were simply wrong. I just said that a post about Grace sounded pretty accurate to me and you flat out told me that was incorrect also.
You don't have to put imo "all over the place". The post you answered was obviously that person's own opinion, they weren't responding to anyone else, they were sharing their own thoughts. You on the other have been quoting other people's opinions and labeling them as incorrect. If you say something is "distorted and exaggerated" and leave it at that with no explanation at all then it does sound like you are just stating something as fact, but I've notice you've since gone back and edited your previous post to add an explanation, so you obviously see what I mean now.
She only went back to embrace a few more Housemates after she literally skipped toward the door with a shit-eating grin on her face. And that really doesn't change anything because her only retort was ":rolleyes: get over it Aisleyne" which really exemplifies her wit.
She only acknowledged her bitchiness outside of the house. Inside of the house she nominated others for bitching despite being the biggest bitch, shamed others for wanting to do magazine spreads yet immediately posed nude for Nuts after her eviction, and avoided confrontation like fellow weak bitches Speidi. She only bitched in her own comfort behind people's backs and if you really think she was a great HM who should've lasted longer, I counter that with Caroline Wharram.
Grace literally said "Well she was a mother figure who stripp-- oh nothing" in trying to justify throwing water on her (after already posing nude in Nuts at this point.) You're right that she didn't mutter though, she whined which is even worse. In typical Grace fashion she avoided any sort of confrontation because "well it's my 21st and I don't want to ruin it" omfg what an amazing fierce bitch goddess
What actually happened was very different from your account in which 'she literally said "sorry!" and sprinted towards the door, clung to the handle until it unlocked and zoomed out of the house as fast as she could.' Your new version is a bit better, but not much.
It's an interesting approach, though. Start with something very distorted then, if someone points out how far from accurate it is, respond with a different, still distorted, version that in some ways isn't quite as bad. I suspect it can go through a number of iterations.
Anyway, much the same applies to the rest, but it would be tedious to go through every point, so I won't.
I have no idea what your Caroline point is supposed to be or what that "amazing fierce bitch goddess" stuff is about. It's not anything I've ever said.
You called someone's opinion on Grace "ridiculous". Told another they were incorrect in saying Grace had no nice side, when they put it down as a difference of opinion you still disagreed and stated they were simply wrong. I just said that a post about Grace sounded pretty accurate to me and you flat out told me that was incorrect also.
Are we supposed to ignore what actually happened? If a description doesn't match what actually happened, then how is it not incorrect?
What I thought ridiculous was the idea that Grace "took bitching to a whole new level". She didn't even reach the levels reached during bb6.
Re "no nice side", the poster said that how they remembered it was "that she had no nice side, no redeeming qualities to offset the bitchiness." However, Grace did such things as comfort and reassure, for example. Normally, that would be seen as showing a nice side or a redeeming quality. So if someone doesn't remember any "nice side" or"redeeming qualities", perhaps they've forgotten, or weren't watching at the right time(s), or somehow failed to notice.
You don't have to put imo "all over the place". The post you answered was obviously that person's own opinion, they weren't responding to anyone else, they were sharing their own thoughts.
And my post was my opinion. It was sharing my thoughts. Are we supposed to ignore forum posts and avoid sharing any thoughts about them?
You on the other have been quoting other people's opinions and labeling them as incorrect.
Is it supposed to be out of bounds to disagree with an opinion and think it's incorrect?
If you say something is "distorted and exaggerated" and leave it at that with no explanation at all then it does sound like you are just stating something as fact, but I've notice you've since gone back and edited your previous post to add an explanation, so you obviously see what I mean now.
The added explanation was not because of anything you said, so it had nothing to do with "seeing what you mean". Not that I thought any explanation was required. I just thought it might be helpful, and I happened to have time and to feel like adding something. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.
What actually happened was very different from your account in which 'she literally said "sorry!" and sprinted towards the door, clung to the handle until it unlocked and zoomed out of the house as fast as she could.' Your new version is a bit better, but not much.
It's an interesting approach, though. Start with something very distorted then, if someone points out how far from accurate it is, respond with a different, still distorted, version that in some ways isn't quite as bad. I suspect it can go through a number of iterations.
Anyway, much the same applies to the rest, but it would be tedious to go through every point, so I won't.
I have no idea what your Caroline point is supposed to be or what that "amazing fierce bitch goddess" stuff is about. It's not anything I've ever said.
It's only very distorted to people who are biased towards Grace. Why someone would be so strongly biased towards her of all people, I don't know, but still.
It's quite amusing how you nitpick at the little points ie "she didn't sprint to the door, she sprinted to the door and then hugged other people as if that makes Grace look and rougher and tougher, and then you're flat out wrong about Grace having no qualms about Susie being a stripper. Better luck next time I guess?
"a he-she and a wigger" truly is the epitome of clever, as is referring to the off beat HMs as "the freaks." You Go Girl.
The thing about Grace is that she is a huge hypocrite and a pathetic pussy. Like, people are really misinterpreting her character if they're acting like Grace is an HBIC because she could only operate behind people's backs. Throw water on Susie? Pish posh, she literally said "sorry!" and sprinted towards the door, clung to the handle until it unlocked and zoomed out of the house as fast as she could. Home girl couldn't handle a confrontation or acknowledge her own bitchy behavior which is the most important quality in being a bitch? Even when she came back into the house and was mad at Susie being a stripper (after posing nude for Nuts (after criticizing everyone else for wanting to do magazine deals) okayyyyyy) and Aisleyne defending Susie's honor, Grace just kept muttering to herself "omg it's my birthday leave me alone " like she's just a weak bitch.
well said .
she was a horrible little snob , and she was no better when she went back in , and she couldn't stand her ground - she'd attack and then run off .
I think she just reminded everyone of the bitchy girls from school, she had that kind of presence to me.
Although there were worse HMs that year for bitching and backstabbing so I have no idea how they got an easy ride themselves, especially Richard who I think was the worst.
No bigger snob than others attacking her. I think the fact she had money and her mom buying her a flat had something to do with it. I think had she been ''common'' she wouldn't have had that level of hate in a million years.
At the end of the day, she was 20; that may not mean much to some people, but its ridiculous that she was to have the life experience of someone like Richard or the 30 year old Ashylyne.
I thought Suzie was utterly sinister. This is a person who despite being a mother and hearing the ugly chants for what essentially was a girl barely out of her teens, threw her to the wolves. So completely desperate for fame.
One thing Grace wasn't was stupid. She knew that the kitkat GT was there to f#ck with her, just as bringing Ash was.
I had to laugh when Richard, 40, was making plans to crown Ashlylne to be ''leader'' of the house when Sezer left.. it did not happen. Grace wasn't a weak bitch at all. She was HBIC. And she faced them boos like a pro.
Whichever way you slice it, Grace would have had to face ''retribution'' fro splashing Suzie. What could 30 year old Asylyn and 50 year old, Suzie realistically say or do? Grace was going to meet her public- the same public who was baying for her blood. I think that the water splashing was as much a message to them as it was to Suzie.
She shouldn't have done it, but I understand why she was pissed. And it was an amazing eviction.
Ash's indignation did not ring true at all. All the talk about Suzie being like a mother, and yet there was no contact whatsoever.
No bigger snob than others attacking her. I think the fact she had money and her mom buying her a flat had something to do with it. I think had she been ''common'' she wouldn't have had that level of hate in a million years.
At the end of the day, she was 20; that may not mean much to some people, but its ridiculous that she was to have the life experience of someone like Richard or the 30 year old Ashylyne.
I thought Suzie was utterly sinister. This is a person who despite being a mother and hearing the ugly chants for what essentially was a girl barely out of her teens, threw her to the wolves. So completely desperate for fame.
One thing Grace wasn't was stupid. She knew that the kitkat GT was there to f#ck with her, just as bringing Ash was.
I had to laugh when Richard, 40, was making plans to crown Ashlylne to be ''leader'' of the house when Sezer left.. it did not happen. Grace wasn't a weak bitch at all. She was HBIC. And she faced them boos like a pro.
Whichever way you slice it, Grace would have had to face ''retribution'' fro splashing Suzie. What could 30 year old Asylyn and 50 year old, Suzie realistically say or do? Grace was going to meet her public- the same public who was baying for her blood. I think that the water splashing was as much a message to them as it was to Suzie.
She shouldn't have done it, but I understand why she was pissed. And it was an amazing eviction.
Ash's indignation did not ring true at all. All the talk about Suzie being like a mother, and yet there was no contact whatsoever.
BIB: I don't recall Ash ever saying that Susie was 'like a mother' but she was definitely looking for a mother figure in the house-first Lea and then Susie (probably the result of being estranged from her mother since her teens) She certainly seemed to look up to Susie and found her a comforting presence in the house. She told Susie that she made her feel very calm and also confessed in the diary room that she was often anxious, with her heart going like the clappers and that Susie's presence relaxed her. I don't doubt that she was genuinely shocked and angered by the water-throwing incident.
No bigger snob than others attacking her. I think the fact she had money and her mom buying her a flat had something to do with it. I think had she been ''common'' she wouldn't have had that level of hate in a million years.
At the end of the day, she was 20; that may not mean much to some people, but its ridiculous that she was to have the life experience of someone like Richard or the 30 year old Ashylyne.
I thought Suzie was utterly sinister. This is a person who despite being a mother and hearing the ugly chants for what essentially was a girl barely out of her teens, threw her to the wolves. So completely desperate for fame.
One thing Grace wasn't was stupid. She knew that the kitkat GT was there to f#ck with her, just as bringing Ash was.
I had to laugh when Richard, 40, was making plans to crown Ashlylne to be ''leader'' of the house when Sezer left.. it did not happen. Grace wasn't a weak bitch at all. She was HBIC. And she faced them boos like a pro.
Whichever way you slice it, Grace would have had to face ''retribution'' fro splashing Suzie. What could 30 year old Asylyn and 50 year old, Suzie realistically say or do? Grace was going to meet her public- the same public who was baying for her blood. I think that the water splashing was as much a message to them as it was to Suzie.
She shouldn't have done it, but I understand why she was pissed. And it was an amazing eviction.
Ash's indignation did not ring true at all. All the talk about Suzie being like a mother, and yet there was no contact whatsoever.
First things first: Aisleyne was 27 when she was in BB7.
Secondly, your 'defence' of Grace's behaviour seems to be based on the fact she was 'only' 20 (she was 21 when she went back in), as if she can be excused the way she carried on. A poor excuse, particularly given you also acknowledge she wasn't stupid or weak. It's also interesting that, rather than defend her behaviour, instead you resort to slating others in there, such as Aisleyne, Richard, and Suzie, and, laughably, claiming that people disliked her because she was from a wealthy family. Do you really not believe that people have other reasons, like those given here, for disliking her?
Grace was a horrible piece of work in BB7, IMO. as others have noted, she bitched constantly about others, yet didn't have the courage to confront people with her issues. She was also utterly cold and callous, and didn't even have the redeeming feature of wit that Bea had.
I also disagree that BB introduced Aisleyne to mess with Grace, or that the special ticket thing was to do her down either.
I don't recall ayslyn confronting those she had issues with either - namely Grace. She latched on to the Suzie thing for dear life. Prior to that she wouldn't say boo to a goose. She was named most Machiavellian, after all. She did all she could to piss off Grace in her sneaky manner - she said it to someone in the house. I'm not sure how that makes her better - in fact it makes her worst because she was allegedly 27. Grace didn't like her and she had good reason not to; first asyln laughed in their faces when their friend was evicted, then went out of her way to irritate Grace by repeatedly flirting with Mikey.
Nikki, Lea, Jennie and Richard did not like her either. (Ashlyne.) And that says a lot.
Age is a reason. You may not like it but its the truth. And the wealth WAS an issue because it was often referenced. At 21 she was still very young and she had a lot to learn, maturity-wise and life-experience. Lets keep in mind she was very young and barely out of her teens, who got carried away with gossip. Because that's all it was.
Bea psychologically tortured Freddie. She befriended him then proceeded to try to break him. I'm not sure how that makes her better or even more endearing than Grace. But then I suppose as long as it isn't Aslynyne being attacked, everyone else is fair game.
I don't recall ayslyn confronting those she had issues with either - namely Grace. She latched on to the Suzie thing for dear life. Prior to that she wouldn't say boo to a goose. She was named most Machiavellian, after all. She did all she could to piss off Grace in her sneaky manner - she said it to someone in the house. I'm not sure how that makes her better - in fact it makes her worst because she was allegedly 27. Grace didn't like her and she had good reason not to; first asyln laughed in their faces when their friend was evicted, then went out of her way to irritate Grace by repeatedly flirting with Mikey.
Nikki, Lea, Jennie and Richard did not like her either. (Ashlyne.) And that says a lot.
Age is a reason. You may not like it but its the truth. And the wealth WAS an issue because it was often referenced. At 21 she was still very young and she had a lot to learn, maturity-wise and life-experience. Lets keep in mind she was very young and barely out of her teens, who got carried away with gossip. Because that's all it was.
Bea psychologically tortured Freddie. She befriended him then proceeded to try to break him. I'm not sure how that makes her better or even more endearing than Grace. But then I suppose as long as it isn't Aslynyne being attacked, everyone else is fair game.
I'm not sure how humor is meant to
Her name is Aisleyne. And there's no 'allegedly' about her age.
And, again, you're turning to slating others instead of putting up anything resembling a worthwhile defence of Grace - the subject of the thread that you started. TBH, from reading your posts I have to wonder how much of the show you watch/recall. Grace was mocking Aisleyne within minutes of her entering, and Aisleyne barely had a word to say about Grace - even Davina (who liked Grace but not Aisleyne) said in Grace's eviction interview that Aisleyne didn't bitch about her.
you've obviously decided that Grace did nothing wrong, apart from what she did do wrong, which you can excuse on account of her age. And if her 'wealth' was an issue, then why did people like Rex, or Freddie, or Harry, or Gina, or Derek? And why were HMs like Bex, or Lisa from BB10 loathed? It's incredible that, having watched the show, and having read this thread, and even having at times admitted that she was a bitch (something you've excused because of her 'only' being 20) you come to the conclusion that people didn't like her because they didn't like the 'fact' that she came from wealth.
In any case, I wasn't even aware that she was from the sort of wealth that you think. I know her parents supposedly bought a house for her to live in, but that's not uncommon for typical middle-class parents to do, as an investment.
And my post was my opinion. It was sharing my thoughts. Are we supposed to ignore forum posts and avoid sharing any thoughts about them? Is it supposed to be out of bounds to disagree with an opinion and think it's incorrect?
That is obviously not the point I was making. You said that the reason you didn't clarify that your post was an opinion as opposed to a fact was because the post you were answering didn't either. I was clearly saying that there's a difference in that person adding a new post describing their opinion of Grace, with examples, and you just quoting what someone says, claiming it's wrong, and then moving on.
You're only continuing to prove my point by still claiming that the way you saw things is the only correct way.
That's not any claim I've made. There are a range of different views that are consistent with what we saw and heard during bb7. But there are also views that aren't consistent with that.
That is obviously not the point I was making. You said that the reason you didn't clarify that your post was an opinion as opposed to a fact was because the post you were answering didn't either.
No, I didn't say that was the reason. The reason, if you want to know, is that I don't think we should have to put in such qualifications every time we offer an opinion.
I was clearly saying that there's a difference in that person adding a new post describing their opinion of Grace, with examples, and you just quoting what someone says, claiming it's wrong, and then moving on.
Sometimes that's all I think a post merits.
Sure.
Are you trying to imply that I'm lying? I didn't even see your post before I added the explanation.
It's only very distorted to people who are biased towards Grace. Why someone would be so strongly biased towards her of all people, I don't know, but still.
It's quite amusing how you nitpick at the little points ie "she didn't sprint to the door, she sprinted to the door and then hugged other people as if that makes Grace look and rougher and tougher, and then you're flat out wrong about Grace having no qualms about Susie being a stripper. Better luck next time I guess?
It's distorted compared to what actually happened, and if so many of the "little points" are wrong, there's not much left. Of course, she had to get to the door and go out, but she didn't sprint to the door, or sprint to the door and then hug people; she didn't, as you claimed initially, literally sprint towards the door and cling to the handle until it unlocked. I don't know where you get the "rougher and tougher" from. It's not anything I said. But what Grace actually did, saying good-byes to various HMs and embracing them, while saying a few things back to Aisleyen who was shouting in the background, is very different from the sprint-and-cling picture you were painting.
It's not entirely clear what Grace's point was re Susie stripping, but she wasn't "mad at Susie being a stripper"; it was more that Susie was very different from how she'd seemed in the house. Grace also mentioned "things that have come out" about Susie, and that was not only that she'd stripped. (I'm not sure how much we're allowed to mention re what appeared in the press.) But Grace hadn't posed "nude for Nuts", though she did post for them; and contrary to the popular myth, she hadn't said she wouldn't do lad's mags. She did say she wouldn't do the ones like Nuts and Zoo, and she did change her mind about that; but she'd even indicated that she might do some of the others such as Maxim or FHM. And she didn't mind Lea (who'd done porn).
It's not true that "She only acknowledged her bitchiness outside of the house". She acknowledged it inside as well.
Re "avoided confrontation like fellow weak bitches Speidi" and "could only operate behind people's backs" -- to the extent that that's true, I don't think she was very different from most other bb7 HMs. I'm not sure what confrontations you think she shouldn't have "avoided". She talked things through with most HMs when she had a problem with something they'd done or said. The main exceptions are Susie and Aisleyne, though it's not entirely clear what conversations she had with Ash. They even went happily to the DR together at one point.
It's true, of course, that Grace didn't throw water at Susie until shortly before Grace left the house, but she'd done other things towards Susie earlier. Ash complained about some of them to other HMs and in the DR but didn't confront Grace. It doesn't look like she said anything to Grace until Grace threw the water (which wasn't even the first water she'd sent in Susie's direction) and was headed out. When Grace came back from the HND, both she and Ash used Grace's birthday as a way to avoid escalation.
That's not any claim I've made. There are a range of different views that are consistent with what we saw and heard during bb7. But there are also views that aren't consistent with that.
People can watch the same footage and have different thoughts about it. It still sounds to me like your point is that if someone's view is consistent with what you saw, it's correct, but if it's not consistent with what you saw, it's incorrect.
No, I didn't say that was the reason. The reason, if you want to know, is that I don't think we should have to put in such qualifications every time we offer an opinion.
Well you said it as a way of justifying not distinguishing between an opinion and a fact when claiming another person is wrong.
Well if you think that's an acceptable way to offer a counter argument then fair enough. Personally though I think that by being so blunt and dismissive to other people's opinions, it looks like you either can't back up what you say or are actually just being quite rude and taking an "I'm right, you're wrong" stance.
No bigger snob than others attacking her. I think the fact she had money and her mom buying her a flat had something to do with it. I think had she been ''common'' she wouldn't have had that level of hate in a million years.
There was definitely a noticeable negative reaction to hearing that Grace's mother had bought her a flat, and it kept being brought up, sometimes in distorted forms. Indeed, it seemed to be what originally started people disliking her, and it contributed the ways she was stereotyped. (Something must have changed a lot since then for so many not to mind how much Gina supposedly lived off her parents. Yet as recently as bb11, a lot of people seemed to dislike Shabby because they thought she was relying on her parents.)
It seemed to be an issue for Aisleyne too. At one point she said something like "she thinks that because she has money she can judge everybody".
At the end of the day, she was 20; that may not mean much to some people, but its ridiculous that she was to have the life experience of someone like Richard or the 30 year old Ashylyne.
I think Grace still had a lot of growing up to do at that point, but I don't buy the sometimes popular idea that she was spoilt. She worked before BB; she worked after; she did a lot of cleaning and cooking while she was in BB. That's not, to me, the behaviour of someone spoilt.
I thought Suzie was utterly sinister. This is a person who despite being a mother and hearing the ugly chants for what essentially was a girl barely out of her teens, threw her to the wolves. So completely desperate for fame.
There was something quite unpleasant about Susie, imo. You might find some of what Jenni Trent-Hughes posted about her interesting, since her views don't seem all that far from yours.
The Grace defenders soldering-on regardless despite calm, factual and reasoned arguments made which paint St Grace in a less than pleasant light.
I've changed since then, as have most people I would think - even if only slightly.
The only thing that hasn't changed is that she still gets defended so strongly by people who don't know her and never did, and formed their opinions by watching her on their TV but for some reason consider themselves better placed to comment on her conduct than everyone else.
People can watch the same footage and have different thoughts about it.
Yes, but some thoughts don't fit with what actually happened. For example, if someone "thought" a HM did a triple handspring when they hadn't.
It still sounds to me like your point is that if someone's view is consistent with what you saw, it's correct, but if it's not consistent with what you saw, it's incorrect.
I think you are mixing up two different issues: whether I think their interpretations have to agree with mine (I don't) and whether what they claim happened ought to be consistent with what viewers saw and heard.
Well you said it as a way of justifying not distinguishing between an opinion and a fact when claiming another person is wrong.
Didn't.
Well if you think that's an acceptable way to offer a counter argument then fair enough.
I don't think it's even an argument. Not everything we post is an argument.
Comments
Sounds spot on to me.
Well, it isn't.
And what is accomplished by claiming it is? All of this has been extensively discussed already, quite a few times. What does become clear though, yet again, is that the reasons many think are why there was OTT dislike don't really add up.
What's accomplished by you continually dismissing any remotely negative opinion on Grace as false and stating your own as absolute fact?
I don't do either of those things. I don't disagree with reasonable negative opinions of Grace that fit what was actually shown during bb7; and I don't say anything is an absolute fact (whatever that is). I don't always put "imo" etc all over the place, but neither did the post I was answering.
She only went back to embrace a few more Housemates after she literally skipped toward the door with a shit-eating grin on her face. And that really doesn't change anything because her only retort was ":rolleyes: get over it Aisleyne" which really exemplifies her wit.
She only acknowledged her bitchiness outside of the house. Inside of the house she nominated others for bitching despite being the biggest bitch, shamed others for wanting to do magazine spreads yet immediately posed nude for Nuts after her eviction, and avoided confrontation like fellow weak bitches Speidi. She only bitched in her own comfort behind people's backs and if you really think she was a great HM who should've lasted longer, I counter that with Caroline Wharram.
Grace literally said "Well she was a mother figure who stripp-- oh nothing" in trying to justify throwing water on her (after already posing nude in Nuts at this point.) You're right that she didn't mutter though, she whined which is even worse. In typical Grace fashion she avoided any sort of confrontation because "well it's my 21st and I don't want to ruin it" omfg what an amazing fierce bitch goddess
You called someone's opinion on Grace "ridiculous". Told another they were incorrect in saying Grace had no nice side, when they put it down as a difference of opinion you still disagreed and stated they were simply wrong. I just said that a post about Grace sounded pretty accurate to me and you flat out told me that was incorrect also.
You don't have to put imo "all over the place". The post you answered was obviously that person's own opinion, they weren't responding to anyone else, they were sharing their own thoughts. You on the other have been quoting other people's opinions and labeling them as incorrect. If you say something is "distorted and exaggerated" and leave it at that with no explanation at all then it does sound like you are just stating something as fact, but I've notice you've since gone back and edited your previous post to add an explanation, so you obviously see what I mean now.
What actually happened was very different from your account in which 'she literally said "sorry!" and sprinted towards the door, clung to the handle until it unlocked and zoomed out of the house as fast as she could.' Your new version is a bit better, but not much.
It's an interesting approach, though. Start with something very distorted then, if someone points out how far from accurate it is, respond with a different, still distorted, version that in some ways isn't quite as bad. I suspect it can go through a number of iterations.
Anyway, much the same applies to the rest, but it would be tedious to go through every point, so I won't.
I have no idea what your Caroline point is supposed to be or what that "amazing fierce bitch goddess" stuff is about. It's not anything I've ever said.
Are we supposed to ignore what actually happened? If a description doesn't match what actually happened, then how is it not incorrect?
What I thought ridiculous was the idea that Grace "took bitching to a whole new level". She didn't even reach the levels reached during bb6.
Re "no nice side", the poster said that how they remembered it was "that she had no nice side, no redeeming qualities to offset the bitchiness." However, Grace did such things as comfort and reassure, for example. Normally, that would be seen as showing a nice side or a redeeming quality. So if someone doesn't remember any "nice side" or"redeeming qualities", perhaps they've forgotten, or weren't watching at the right time(s), or somehow failed to notice.
And my post was my opinion. It was sharing my thoughts. Are we supposed to ignore forum posts and avoid sharing any thoughts about them?
Is it supposed to be out of bounds to disagree with an opinion and think it's incorrect?
The added explanation was not because of anything you said, so it had nothing to do with "seeing what you mean". Not that I thought any explanation was required. I just thought it might be helpful, and I happened to have time and to feel like adding something. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.
It's only very distorted to people who are biased towards Grace. Why someone would be so strongly biased towards her of all people, I don't know, but still.
It's quite amusing how you nitpick at the little points ie "she didn't sprint to the door, she sprinted to the door and then hugged other people as if that makes Grace look and rougher and tougher, and then you're flat out wrong about Grace having no qualms about Susie being a stripper. Better luck next time I guess?
well said .
she was a horrible little snob , and she was no better when she went back in , and she couldn't stand her ground - she'd attack and then run off .
.
Although there were worse HMs that year for bitching and backstabbing so I have no idea how they got an easy ride themselves, especially Richard who I think was the worst.
but she was very 2 faced, manipulative and rude.
not a very nice little madam if you ask me
At the end of the day, she was 20; that may not mean much to some people, but its ridiculous that she was to have the life experience of someone like Richard or the 30 year old Ashylyne.
I thought Suzie was utterly sinister. This is a person who despite being a mother and hearing the ugly chants for what essentially was a girl barely out of her teens, threw her to the wolves. So completely desperate for fame.
One thing Grace wasn't was stupid. She knew that the kitkat GT was there to f#ck with her, just as bringing Ash was.
I had to laugh when Richard, 40, was making plans to crown Ashlylne to be ''leader'' of the house when Sezer left.. it did not happen. Grace wasn't a weak bitch at all. She was HBIC. And she faced them boos like a pro.
Whichever way you slice it, Grace would have had to face ''retribution'' fro splashing Suzie. What could 30 year old Asylyn and 50 year old, Suzie realistically say or do? Grace was going to meet her public- the same public who was baying for her blood. I think that the water splashing was as much a message to them as it was to Suzie.
She shouldn't have done it, but I understand why she was pissed. And it was an amazing eviction.
Ash's indignation did not ring true at all. All the talk about Suzie being like a mother, and yet there was no contact whatsoever.
BIB: I don't recall Ash ever saying that Susie was 'like a mother' but she was definitely looking for a mother figure in the house-first Lea and then Susie (probably the result of being estranged from her mother since her teens) She certainly seemed to look up to Susie and found her a comforting presence in the house. She told Susie that she made her feel very calm and also confessed in the diary room that she was often anxious, with her heart going like the clappers and that Susie's presence relaxed her. I don't doubt that she was genuinely shocked and angered by the water-throwing incident.
First things first: Aisleyne was 27 when she was in BB7.
Secondly, your 'defence' of Grace's behaviour seems to be based on the fact she was 'only' 20 (she was 21 when she went back in), as if she can be excused the way she carried on. A poor excuse, particularly given you also acknowledge she wasn't stupid or weak. It's also interesting that, rather than defend her behaviour, instead you resort to slating others in there, such as Aisleyne, Richard, and Suzie, and, laughably, claiming that people disliked her because she was from a wealthy family. Do you really not believe that people have other reasons, like those given here, for disliking her?
Grace was a horrible piece of work in BB7, IMO. as others have noted, she bitched constantly about others, yet didn't have the courage to confront people with her issues. She was also utterly cold and callous, and didn't even have the redeeming feature of wit that Bea had.
I also disagree that BB introduced Aisleyne to mess with Grace, or that the special ticket thing was to do her down either.
I don't recall ayslyn confronting those she had issues with either - namely Grace. She latched on to the Suzie thing for dear life. Prior to that she wouldn't say boo to a goose. She was named most Machiavellian, after all. She did all she could to piss off Grace in her sneaky manner - she said it to someone in the house. I'm not sure how that makes her better - in fact it makes her worst because she was allegedly 27. Grace didn't like her and she had good reason not to; first asyln laughed in their faces when their friend was evicted, then went out of her way to irritate Grace by repeatedly flirting with Mikey.
Nikki, Lea, Jennie and Richard did not like her either. (Ashlyne.) And that says a lot.
Age is a reason. You may not like it but its the truth. And the wealth WAS an issue because it was often referenced. At 21 she was still very young and she had a lot to learn, maturity-wise and life-experience. Lets keep in mind she was very young and barely out of her teens, who got carried away with gossip. Because that's all it was.
Bea psychologically tortured Freddie. She befriended him then proceeded to try to break him. I'm not sure how that makes her better or even more endearing than Grace. But then I suppose as long as it isn't Aslynyne being attacked, everyone else is fair game.
I'm not sure how humor is meant to
Her name is Aisleyne. And there's no 'allegedly' about her age.
And, again, you're turning to slating others instead of putting up anything resembling a worthwhile defence of Grace - the subject of the thread that you started. TBH, from reading your posts I have to wonder how much of the show you watch/recall. Grace was mocking Aisleyne within minutes of her entering, and Aisleyne barely had a word to say about Grace - even Davina (who liked Grace but not Aisleyne) said in Grace's eviction interview that Aisleyne didn't bitch about her.
you've obviously decided that Grace did nothing wrong, apart from what she did do wrong, which you can excuse on account of her age. And if her 'wealth' was an issue, then why did people like Rex, or Freddie, or Harry, or Gina, or Derek? And why were HMs like Bex, or Lisa from BB10 loathed? It's incredible that, having watched the show, and having read this thread, and even having at times admitted that she was a bitch (something you've excused because of her 'only' being 20) you come to the conclusion that people didn't like her because they didn't like the 'fact' that she came from wealth.
In any case, I wasn't even aware that she was from the sort of wealth that you think. I know her parents supposedly bought a house for her to live in, but that's not uncommon for typical middle-class parents to do, as an investment.
You're only continuing to prove my point by still claiming that the way you saw things is the only correct way.
That is obviously not the point I was making. You said that the reason you didn't clarify that your post was an opinion as opposed to a fact was because the post you were answering didn't either. I was clearly saying that there's a difference in that person adding a new post describing their opinion of Grace, with examples, and you just quoting what someone says, claiming it's wrong, and then moving on.
Sure.
That's not any claim I've made. There are a range of different views that are consistent with what we saw and heard during bb7. But there are also views that aren't consistent with that.
No, I didn't say that was the reason. The reason, if you want to know, is that I don't think we should have to put in such qualifications every time we offer an opinion.
Sometimes that's all I think a post merits.
Are you trying to imply that I'm lying? I didn't even see your post before I added the explanation.
It's distorted compared to what actually happened, and if so many of the "little points" are wrong, there's not much left. Of course, she had to get to the door and go out, but she didn't sprint to the door, or sprint to the door and then hug people; she didn't, as you claimed initially, literally sprint towards the door and cling to the handle until it unlocked. I don't know where you get the "rougher and tougher" from. It's not anything I said. But what Grace actually did, saying good-byes to various HMs and embracing them, while saying a few things back to Aisleyen who was shouting in the background, is very different from the sprint-and-cling picture you were painting.
It's not entirely clear what Grace's point was re Susie stripping, but she wasn't "mad at Susie being a stripper"; it was more that Susie was very different from how she'd seemed in the house. Grace also mentioned "things that have come out" about Susie, and that was not only that she'd stripped. (I'm not sure how much we're allowed to mention re what appeared in the press.) But Grace hadn't posed "nude for Nuts", though she did post for them; and contrary to the popular myth, she hadn't said she wouldn't do lad's mags. She did say she wouldn't do the ones like Nuts and Zoo, and she did change her mind about that; but she'd even indicated that she might do some of the others such as Maxim or FHM. And she didn't mind Lea (who'd done porn).
It's not true that "She only acknowledged her bitchiness outside of the house". She acknowledged it inside as well.
Re "avoided confrontation like fellow weak bitches Speidi" and "could only operate behind people's backs" -- to the extent that that's true, I don't think she was very different from most other bb7 HMs. I'm not sure what confrontations you think she shouldn't have "avoided". She talked things through with most HMs when she had a problem with something they'd done or said. The main exceptions are Susie and Aisleyne, though it's not entirely clear what conversations she had with Ash. They even went happily to the DR together at one point.
It's true, of course, that Grace didn't throw water at Susie until shortly before Grace left the house, but she'd done other things towards Susie earlier. Ash complained about some of them to other HMs and in the DR but didn't confront Grace. It doesn't look like she said anything to Grace until Grace threw the water (which wasn't even the first water she'd sent in Susie's direction) and was headed out. When Grace came back from the HND, both she and Ash used Grace's birthday as a way to avoid escalation.
People can watch the same footage and have different thoughts about it. It still sounds to me like your point is that if someone's view is consistent with what you saw, it's correct, but if it's not consistent with what you saw, it's incorrect.
Well you said it as a way of justifying not distinguishing between an opinion and a fact when claiming another person is wrong.
Well if you think that's an acceptable way to offer a counter argument then fair enough. Personally though I think that by being so blunt and dismissive to other people's opinions, it looks like you either can't back up what you say or are actually just being quite rude and taking an "I'm right, you're wrong" stance.
I guess it's just a coincidence then.
There was definitely a noticeable negative reaction to hearing that Grace's mother had bought her a flat, and it kept being brought up, sometimes in distorted forms. Indeed, it seemed to be what originally started people disliking her, and it contributed the ways she was stereotyped. (Something must have changed a lot since then for so many not to mind how much Gina supposedly lived off her parents. Yet as recently as bb11, a lot of people seemed to dislike Shabby because they thought she was relying on her parents.)
It seemed to be an issue for Aisleyne too. At one point she said something like "she thinks that because she has money she can judge everybody".
I think Grace still had a lot of growing up to do at that point, but I don't buy the sometimes popular idea that she was spoilt. She worked before BB; she worked after; she did a lot of cleaning and cooking while she was in BB. That's not, to me, the behaviour of someone spoilt.
There was something quite unpleasant about Susie, imo. You might find some of what Jenni Trent-Hughes posted about her interesting, since her views don't seem all that far from yours.
The Grace defenders soldering-on regardless despite calm, factual and reasoned arguments made which paint St Grace in a less than pleasant light.
I've changed since then, as have most people I would think - even if only slightly.
The only thing that hasn't changed is that she still gets defended so strongly by people who don't know her and never did, and formed their opinions by watching her on their TV but for some reason consider themselves better placed to comment on her conduct than everyone else.
Amazing.
Yes, but some thoughts don't fit with what actually happened. For example, if someone "thought" a HM did a triple handspring when they hadn't.
I think you are mixing up two different issues: whether I think their interpretations have to agree with mine (I don't) and whether what they claim happened ought to be consistent with what viewers saw and heard.
Didn't.
I don't think it's even an argument. Not everything we post is an argument.