Incredible to read such an article in the Telegraph of all places. Some bits of course I disagree with (the praise of Thatcher and Reagan's policies as necessary when this is simply a continuation of their ideology) but incredible nonetheless.
I think any sort of overhaul needs to come from bellow the middle classes though - as badly as they (I should say we really) have had it the working class of Britain have been shafted a lot worse. It could and probably should come from my generation (I'm a 21 year old student) because we seem to have taken kicking after kicking from a political class desperate to protect their own interest groups. This happens partially because we aren't engaged enough, and that's a serious obstacle to any major change too, especially considering how atomised and apathetic our society has become - which is no accident by the way.
What is the difference between a working class and middle class?
You're saying that one class has been shafted more than the other. So I asked who is working class and who is middle class. When is somebody from a working class and not middle class?
come on........the whole dog whistle politics thing, right wing popular press and the general zeitgeist is all about hatred of people on benefits, poor asylum seekers, women with a lot of children, the disabled who ought to damn well get a job, ......generally the people at the bottom of society
Do you not read the threads on here ?
They shouldn't get this, they shouldn't get that, they shouldn't have these rights or those rights, they shouldn't be here, it's ridiculous how they live in luxury on benefits, prisoners living the life of riley and so on and so on..........
It just appears to be a fact that most people in Britain would rather do down someone below them than raise themselves up.........and the politicians exploit this and play up to it and make doing people down 'the issue'...........political parties compete to see who can be most beastly to the poor........lots of votes in that !
A lot of that looking down in scorn is directed by politics and media though. They are aware of the effects of their policies and ideologies, aware of how people will become angry and dissatisfied, and so need to feed them scapegoats. It also helps that the scapegoats ( benefits claimants etc.) are the sort of people who elite interests are trying to kick. They want to dismantle welfare so if they can blame the poorest for our problems, then they'll have support for the next wave of cruel policy and the vicious circle continues.
I wouldn't take this board as an indicator of real attitudes either. It seems to me to be right wing fantasy land!
A lot of that looking down in scorn is directed by politics and media though. They are aware of the effects of their policies and ideologies, aware of how people will become angry and dissatisfied, and so need to feed them scapegoats. It also helps that the scapegoats ( benefits claimants etc.) are the sort of people who elite interests are trying to kick. They want to dismantle welfare so if they can blame the poorest for our problems, then they'll have support for the next wave of cruel policy and the vicious circle continues.
I wouldn't take this board as an indicator of real attitudes either. It seems to me to be right wing fantasy land!
fair point - although strangely enough the newspaper that mentions 'scroungers' the most id the Guardian..
fair point - although strangely enough the newspaper that mentions 'scroungers' the most id the Guardian..
The Guardian obviously has an interest in slagging off its competitors but it's still part of a large media company with its own interests to pursue. They can act as lefty as they like but they asked us to support the Lib Dems at the last election so you know...
I think they have some really good individual writers but their editorial line is pretty pro-establishment - they just happen to support the red team or the yellow team rather than the blue team, despite them being almost interchangeable ideologically.
is this the same daily telegraph that created utter contempt for parliament with the mps expenses scandal ? so that most people now think all our mps are freeloaders with a cushy taxpayer supported lifestyle ? surely not !
they thought they were very cleverly ensuring a tory government. but tories have private incomes. its labour mps who actually need expenses ......
is this the same daily telegraph that created utter contempt for parliament with the mps expenses scandal ? so that most people now think all our mps are freeloaders with a cushy taxpayer supported lifestyle ? surely not !
they thought they were very cleverly ensuring a tory government. but tories have private incomes. its labour mps who actually need expenses ......
what the torygraph did is weaken our democracy.
Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have reported on the expenses scandal? It's pretty ridiculous to think that the population knowing what politicians are up to is bad for democracy. It might be bad for the establishment but that's a different matter. Transparency is integral to a healthy democracy.
is this the same daily telegraph that created utter contempt for parliament with the mps expenses scandal ? so that most people now think all our mps are freeloaders with a cushy taxpayer supported lifestyle ? surely not !
Perhaps the fraud perpetrated by the like of the former Labour Minister Denis Mcshane should not have been exposed?
what the torygraph did is weaken our democracy.
if exposing criminal acts is weakening our democracy then I'm all for it.
is this the same daily telegraph that created utter contempt for parliament with the mps expenses scandal ? so that most people now think all our mps are freeloaders with a cushy taxpayer supported lifestyle ? surely not !
they thought they were very cleverly ensuring a tory government. but tories have private incomes. its labour mps who actually need expenses ......
what the torygraph did is weaken our democracy.
you aint seen nothing yet
Just wait till the Woolf enquiry is complete (if she stays on,given she is best mates with Leon Brittan)
Just wait till the Woolf enquiry is complete (if she stays on,given she is best mates with Leon Brittan)
We will be lucky to hear any of what really went on for decades, when yesterdays politicians are in the earth and todays politicians are out of the policial theatre and too old to really care about whats going on around them.
Unless we have our own snowden come forward and start dishing the dirt, even then you know how the authority will handle that, frankly I'm suprised hes still alive
"no i haven't tried applying, because since leaving school in july 1983, i have never ever been unemployed. 7 years at night college and a belief i could do better have contributed to my comfortable lifestyle (and continuous employment).
yes i have talked to shelf stackers in my local tescos, as they assist me when looking for products i can't find. they are always helpful and polite - whats your point?
those with degrees who can't get graduate jobs were sold a lie by blair. it was obvious to anyone that too many folks with degrees would depress the graduate jobs market.
and to be honest, those with degrees would be the first people i would assume who would seek graduate employment overseas if necessary, as they were quite willing to stay in digs away from home for 3 or 4 years whilst obtaining a degree. so living in a new location wouldnt' be so alien to them.
your last sentence is a bit of a misnomer because nowhere in my post do i lambast the unemployed, under employed, disabled or sick.[/QUOTE]"
I think the part of your post that says you do talk to shelf stackers when you want them to find something for you just about sums up what is wrong with society today.......
40 years ago I would have been one of their core voters. Not now, for years the only (feeble) alternative was Labour but Blair ended that.
40 years ago there were decent people in both the Conservative and Labour parties, unlike today. And since 2008 both parties have put a lot of effort into convincing us that the financial crisis wasn't caused by criminals in the banks, but social security 'scroungers', immigrants, to much spending on the NHS etc. And they'd succeeded in moving the conversation along, so now those subjects are issues being debated, while the thieving bankers are almost forgotten. And the politicians have got their reward, with Blair getting 2 mill a year from American bankers JP Morgan Mandelson a million each year from investment bank Lazards, and more, just as the members of the last Conservative government did. And the enrichment of the present lot has begun, with Chris Huhne coming straight out of prison to be hired by an American energy company, (he'd been an energy minister) at £100,,00 a year, and soon got another job in the energy sector.
We live in a state that is ruled for criminals, of the criminals, and by criminals..
40 years ago there were decent people in both the Conservative and Labour parties, unlike today. And since 2008 both parties have put a lot of effort into convincing us that the financial crisis wasn't caused by criminals in the banks, but social security 'scroungers', immigrants, to much spending on the NHS etc. And they'd succeeded in moving the conversation along, so now those subjects are issues being debated, while the thieving bankers are almost forgotten. And the politicians have got their reward, with Blair getting 2 mill a year from American bankers JP Morgan Mandelson a million each year from investment bank Lazards, and more, just as the members of the last Conservative government did. And the enrichment of the present lot has begun, with Chris Huhne coming straight out of prison to be hired by an American energy company, (he'd been an energy minister) at £100,,00 a year, and soon got another job in the energy sector.
We live in a state that is ruled for criminals, of the criminals, and by criminals..
No it wasn't but in your world every ill seems to be laid at the door of socialists Care to provide some sort of evidence of what you say?
HAHA good luck with that,
bubonic plague? socialists, the crucifixion? socialists, the deforestation of the rain forests? socialists, global warming? socialists the Ebola outbreak? yip... sinking of the Titanic? socialist iceberg, that nasty rash on his...... etc etc, I think he has a thing about socialists, I dunno perhaps one knocked his pint over once or did the dirty with his girlfriend, there has to be something.
;-)
HAHA good luck with that,
bubonic plague? socialists, the crucifixion? socialists, the deforestation of the rain forests? socialists, global warming? socialists the Ebola outbreak? yip... sinking of the Titanic? socialist iceberg, that nasty rash on his...... etc etc, I think he has a thing about socialists, I dunno perhaps one knocked his pint over once or did the dirty with his girlfriend, there has to be something.
;-)
is this the same daily telegraph that created utter contempt for parliament with the mps expenses scandal ? so that most people now think all our mps are freeloaders with a cushy taxpayer supported lifestyle ? surely not !
they thought they were very cleverly ensuring a tory government. but tories have private incomes. its labour mps who actually need expenses ......
what the torygraph did is weaken our democracy.
The politicians who abused the expenses systems weakened democracy, the Telegraph merely revealed what was going on. Your logic is in the same vein as that which was used to cover up abuse by Catholic priests for generations. Can't reveal what's really going on and undermine trust in the church after all. The same argument is also being used to attack those who have revealed the extent of surveillance by the security services of innocent people.
I think the part of your post that says you do talk to shelf stackers when you want them to find something for you just about sums up what is wrong with society today.......
Comments
What is the difference between a working class and middle class?
A working class and middle class what?
You're saying that one class has been shafted more than the other. So I asked who is working class and who is middle class. When is somebody from a working class and not middle class?
A lot of that looking down in scorn is directed by politics and media though. They are aware of the effects of their policies and ideologies, aware of how people will become angry and dissatisfied, and so need to feed them scapegoats. It also helps that the scapegoats ( benefits claimants etc.) are the sort of people who elite interests are trying to kick. They want to dismantle welfare so if they can blame the poorest for our problems, then they'll have support for the next wave of cruel policy and the vicious circle continues.
I wouldn't take this board as an indicator of real attitudes either. It seems to me to be right wing fantasy land!
fair point - although strangely enough the newspaper that mentions 'scroungers' the most id the Guardian..
The Guardian obviously has an interest in slagging off its competitors but it's still part of a large media company with its own interests to pursue. They can act as lefty as they like but they asked us to support the Lib Dems at the last election so you know...
I think they have some really good individual writers but their editorial line is pretty pro-establishment - they just happen to support the red team or the yellow team rather than the blue team, despite them being almost interchangeable ideologically.
they thought they were very cleverly ensuring a tory government. but tories have private incomes. its labour mps who actually need expenses ......
what the torygraph did is weaken our democracy.
According to the ONS in the UK we are generally satisifed with our lot in life and happy, and we have been getting happier over recent years.
UK population Life Satisfaction
Low 5.56%
Medium 15.98%
High 51.70%
Very High 26.76%
UK population Happiness
Low 9.68%
Medium 17.05%
High 40.66%
Very High 32.60%
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/wellbeing/measuring-national-well-being/personal-well-being-in-the-uk--2013-14/index.html
Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have reported on the expenses scandal? It's pretty ridiculous to think that the population knowing what politicians are up to is bad for democracy. It might be bad for the establishment but that's a different matter. Transparency is integral to a healthy democracy.
Perhaps the fraud perpetrated by the like of the former Labour Minister Denis Mcshane should not have been exposed?
if exposing criminal acts is weakening our democracy then I'm all for it.
you aint seen nothing yet
Just wait till the Woolf enquiry is complete (if she stays on,given she is best mates with Leon Brittan)
We will be lucky to hear any of what really went on for decades, when yesterdays politicians are in the earth and todays politicians are out of the policial theatre and too old to really care about whats going on around them.
Unless we have our own snowden come forward and start dishing the dirt, even then you know how the authority will handle that, frankly I'm suprised hes still alive
yes i have talked to shelf stackers in my local tescos, as they assist me when looking for products i can't find. they are always helpful and polite - whats your point?
those with degrees who can't get graduate jobs were sold a lie by blair. it was obvious to anyone that too many folks with degrees would depress the graduate jobs market.
and to be honest, those with degrees would be the first people i would assume who would seek graduate employment overseas if necessary, as they were quite willing to stay in digs away from home for 3 or 4 years whilst obtaining a degree. so living in a new location wouldnt' be so alien to them.
your last sentence is a bit of a misnomer because nowhere in my post do i lambast the unemployed, under employed, disabled or sick.[/QUOTE]"
I think the part of your post that says you do talk to shelf stackers when you want them to find something for you just about sums up what is wrong with society today.......
Pfff.... is there any other kind?
40 years ago there were decent people in both the Conservative and Labour parties, unlike today. And since 2008 both parties have put a lot of effort into convincing us that the financial crisis wasn't caused by criminals in the banks, but social security 'scroungers', immigrants, to much spending on the NHS etc. And they'd succeeded in moving the conversation along, so now those subjects are issues being debated, while the thieving bankers are almost forgotten. And the politicians have got their reward, with Blair getting 2 mill a year from American bankers JP Morgan Mandelson a million each year from investment bank Lazards, and more, just as the members of the last Conservative government did. And the enrichment of the present lot has begun, with Chris Huhne coming straight out of prison to be hired by an American energy company, (he'd been an energy minister) at £100,,00 a year, and soon got another job in the energy sector.
We live in a state that is ruled for criminals, of the criminals, and by criminals..
Here here, well said.
No it wasn't but in your world every ill seems to be laid at the door of socialists Care to provide some sort of evidence of what you say?
HAHA good luck with that,
bubonic plague? socialists, the crucifixion? socialists, the deforestation of the rain forests? socialists, global warming? socialists the Ebola outbreak? yip... sinking of the Titanic? socialist iceberg, that nasty rash on his...... etc etc, I think he has a thing about socialists, I dunno perhaps one knocked his pint over once or did the dirty with his girlfriend, there has to be something.
;-)
BIB You reckon he got one of those?
The politicians who abused the expenses systems weakened democracy, the Telegraph merely revealed what was going on. Your logic is in the same vein as that which was used to cover up abuse by Catholic priests for generations. Can't reveal what's really going on and undermine trust in the church after all. The same argument is also being used to attack those who have revealed the extent of surveillance by the security services of innocent people.
Yup, a kakistocracy.
All those socialists working in investment banking and hedge funds like, what are we going to do with them?