He is scheming and deceitful eg getting Francis drunk and encouraging him to gamble away his mine. He spots weaknesses and traits in others and uses them to satisfy his personal little vendetta. A sociopath.
There's nothing unclear about it really. So far anyway.
I think you've been watching different scenes - a sociopath?? Really???
And Francis did that all on his own - just because George was in the room it doesn't mean he had anything to do with it. Ross was in the room too - is he culpable as well then?!
I think it was clear that Francis is (or was, dunno what happens next year) on a very self-destructive negative path. And he's more interesting for it. Even when George visted them after Verity left he wasn't the orchastrator of that situation - Francis was in foul bitter mood before he came through the door. He spilled his guts very willingly. Its not as if George had to put any pressure on. In fact George had just forgiven his debts.
I blame Francis for everything Francis has done. 100%. He had a great life, a nice wife.....and he resented all of it for no good reason.
They didn't seem to consider it an option. Perhaps in part because they wanted to drive up the price of copper ore - do to that, they had to go to auction, I suppose, rather than just trading it among themselves.
Yes that would just have kept the price of ore low. They were individual mine owners primarily, their interest was in pushing the price of the ore up in the long term.
Loving your informative posts Indeg. Knowing this background helps you understand that George Warleggan is an appallingly ruthless capitalist, fully aware that people will starve so that his family can add to their huge wealth. Which make the occasions when he shows human feeling and is 'polite' in the face of Ross's anger all the more impactful.
That's the special genius of the book, and it takes an actor of Jack Farthing's calibre to make such a character engaging and even sympathetic.
You just wrote 'copper' for both ore and refined metal so there was some ambiguity. I know it is fairly obvious but there are probably people who think it comes out of the ground all shiny!
I think it was clear that Francis is (or was, dunno what happens next year) on a very self-destructive negative path. And he's more interesting for it. Even when George visted them after Verity left he wasn't the orchastrator of that situation - Francis was in foul bitter mood before he came through the door. He spilled his guts very willingly. Its not as if George had to put any pressure on. In fact George had just forgiven his debts.
It was a bit more complicated than that, with plenty of blame to spread around. George knew exactly what he was doing when he approached Francis that day - writing off a few debts was in part about reclaiming family honour after Sanson's cheating had been revealed, but it was also a very good, subtle way of applying pressure on Francis, who had information George wanted. Francis in fact remained loyal to Ross for a time, in spite of his anger - we saw him struggling with conflicting impulses and pressures - but the wound was raw, came on top of old resentments, and George was very subtle and sly, goading him for more information. Francis was at fault for yielding, which he did out of anger and resentment, but George was also at fault for deliberately pumping him for that information, which he wanted specifically so he could destroy the company and everyone involved with it.
Yes that would just have kept the price of ore low. They were individual mine owners primarily, their interest was in pushing the price of the ore up in the long term.
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
No. The price of the ore is critically important to the mines - the owners, shareholders and miners. The price of the raw ore is what the entire local economy is hinged upon.
The smelting company and the mines are not all the same economic unit. The smelting company has shareholders in common with the mines, but they are all separate companies.
It was a bit more complicated than that, with plenty of blame to spread around. George knew exactly what he was doing when he approached Francis that day - writing off a few debts was in part about reclaiming family honour after Sanson's cheating had been revealed, but it was also a very good, subtle way of applying pressure on Francis, who had information George wanted. Francis in fact remained loyal to Ross for a time, in spite of his anger - we saw him struggling with conflicting impulses and pressures - but the wound was raw, came on top of old resentments, and George was very subtle and sly, goading him for more information. Francis was at fault for yielding, which he did out of anger and resentment, but George was also at fault for deliberately pumping him for that information, which he wanted specifically so he could destroy the company and everyone involved with it.
That's how I saw it too. He knew Francis was weak so he exploited that weakness.
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
No, me neither! But generally the Carnmore company was a co-operative so any profits would get split between many owners. As individual mine owners what they really wanted was a high ore price which is where the greater profit would lie for them, but this was not possible with the Smelting cartel orchestrated by the Warleggans who wanted the ore price kept low.
Cornwall's remote and 'confined' geography also helped this state of affairs.
No, me neither! But generally the Carnmore company was a co-operative so any profits would get split between many owners. As individual mine owners what they really wanted was a high ore price which is where the greater profit would lie for them, but this was not possible with the Smelting cartel orchestrated by the Warleggans who wanted the ore price kept low.
Cornwall's remote and 'confined' geography also helped this state of affairs.
No, me neither! But generally the Carnmore company was a co-operative so any profits would get split between many owners. As individual mine owners what they really wanted was a high ore price which is where the greater profit would lie for them, but this was not possible with the Smelting cartel orchestrated by the Warleggans who wanted the ore price kept low.
Cornwall's remote and 'confined' geography also helped this state of affairs.
Plus, while a decent price for refined copper would benefit the cooperative shareholders of Carnmore, that benefit doesn't filter down to the local economy. High prices for copper ore is the crucial factor, critical to the survival of the mines, on which the livelihood of entire communities depended. Those low ore prices were a key factor in Grambler's demise - and I know some folk here don't like comparisons with the book, but it's important here because
in the book, Francis does not lose the mine gambling, that was a big change made in this adaptation. Book Francis loses a lot of money at the gaming table, money his family can ill-afford, but what does for Grambler is basically the economy. It's a big, sprawling mine, centuries old, and with ore prices cripplingly low, the mine simply cannot afford to keep running. It succumbs to financial pressures, basically - it isn't cost-effective to run and Francis doesn't have capital to invest in saving it. Of course, that isn't as dramatic as him losing it on a game of cards, but it's more of a true reflection of the downward economic trend.
According to this website which uses terminology from the period, putrid throat wasn't diptheria.
Lots of mentions of putrid throat in late 18th Century and 19th Century newspaper but all seem to be various potions that were supposed to cure it. Snake Oil!
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
This point interests me too, because I write for a company that processes its own raw material. But it sells the raw product to other processers too, so I guess that's why it's bothered about the price. Not entirely sure
But I guess in this instance it's about:
- efficiency - having a consistent supply and volume of ore, so it's economically worthwhile to operate a smelting works
- spreading the risk - if your mine runs dry you can focus on the smelting side. In a fair market you pay a reasonable price for the raw material but can still sell your added-value product on at a profit.
I was extremely pleased with how Ross finally put a nail in the dead coffin that is Elizabeth: "Pray that I don't lose the love of my life." Honestly, poor Demelza has lost her child to a family who call her a troll and sacrificed her health for theiir well-being, and Elizabeth still expects Ross to drop everything and pine for her? All that beauty has made her quite silly in the head.
I wasn't really very happy about that scene, and wonder now how the producers will deal with the "future" that others have cryptically referred to now that Ross has told Elizabeth squarely that she means nothing to him any more (in the romantic sense).
I thought that was a whip sting at her that was uncalled for. She had gone to try and help Demelza as a return favour so why did he cut her so acutely?
I am no fan of Elizabeth but she did end up in an unhappy marriage only becasue she thought Ross was not coming home. And now she has Warleggan making eyes at her. Her fate is truly blighted.
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
This point interests me too, because I write for a company that processes its own raw material. But it sells the raw product to other processers too, so I guess that's why it's bothered about the price. Not entirely sure
But I guess in this instance it's about:
- efficiency - having a consistent supply and volume of ore, so it's economically worthwhile to operate a smelting works
- spreading the risk - if your mine runs dry you can focus on the smelting side. In a fair market you pay a reasonable price for the raw material but can still sell your added-value product on at a profit
Also, the smelting company cannot smelt its own ore because it doesn't own any. Some of its shareholders are also mine owners and therefore produce ore, but those mines and their produce are not part of the smelting company - they are completely separate businesses, which must also make a profit, which means selling their ore on the open market, which is where the smelting company came in in the first place because it was conceived as a means of breaking up the price fixing ring which was crippling the mines and driving them out of business. Thus the smelting company must purchase its ore on the open market, by outbidding its competitors.
I think you've been watching different scenes - a sociopath?? Really???
And Francis did that all on his own - just because George was in the room it doesn't mean he had anything to do with it. Ross was in the room too - is he culpable as well then?!
I think it was clear that Francis is (or was, dunno what happens next year) on a very self-destructive negative path. And he's more interesting for it. Even when George visted them after Verity left he wasn't the orchastrator of that situation - Francis was in foul bitter mood before he came through the door. He spilled his guts very willingly. Its not as if George had to put any pressure on. In fact George had just forgiven his debts.
I blame Francis for everything Francis has done. 100%. He had a great life, a nice wife.....and he resented all of it for no good reason.
Don't you think George played on that? Then stoked and manipulated Francis' anger. George did refer to Ross as having been Elizabeth's first love... that whole scene is George reminding - subtly - Francis of all the stuff he dislikes about Ross. Easy peasy, next thing Francis can't help himself but betray the man he is jealous of.
I seem to remember from the books, that Ross and George were at school together and had a mutual antipathy towards each other,which time and circumstances deepened.
Don't you think George played on that? Then stoked and manipulated Francis' anger. George did refer to Ross as having been Elizabeth's first love... that whole scene is George reminding - subtly - Francis of all the stuff he dislikes about Ross. Easy peasy, next thing Francis can't help himself but betray the man he is jealous of.
Hear hear, Tiggywink.
This adaptation hasn't been particularly kind toward Francis, but it has, to me at least, shown quite clearly why he feels the way he does - he has plenty of good reason for his jealousy and resentment. We saw how his father bullied him, so that he always felt inadequate - even on Charles's death bed, he was still running Francis down and comparing him unfavourably with his cousin, whose shadow Francis grew up in. That inferiority complex has been crippling for Francis. He also knows damn well he was Elizabeth's second choice, that if Ross hadn't gone off to war and been presumed dead she'd never have looked twice at him. So not only is Ross the son Francis's father wished he'd had, he's also the husband Francis's wife wishes she'd had. There was never much passion in their marriage and it died completely once Geoffrey Charles was born. So he feels second best to Ross in more ways than one. He sees Ross making a success of his business ventures (or at least appearing to) and forging a happy marriage with his kitchen maid, while the business Francis inherited goes down the toilet and his own marriage flounders. He's a weak man and his sense of inadequacy led to self-destructiveness. Just because he inherited a big house and got the girl Ross wanted first, doesn't mean he has a perfect life. He's extremely privileged compared with his tenants and miners, but that doesn't make him immune to stress, anxiety and depression - especially since he knows he has failed in the responsibilities that daunted him so when he inherited.
Also, the smelting company cannot smelt its own ore because it doesn't own any. Some of its shareholders are also mine owners and therefore produce ore, but those mines and their produce are not part of the smelting company - they are completely separate businesses, which must also make a profit, which means selling their ore on the open market, which is where the smelting company came in in the first place because it was conceived as a means of breaking up the price fixing ring which was crippling the mines and driving them out of business. Thus the smelting company must purchase its ore on the open market, by outbidding its competitors.
Phew!
It's all flippin' complicated! A thought which has just occurred to me though. If the Warleggan's company are pushing the price of ore up to stop Carnmore, then surely that's only beneficial to the mine owners? Last night Poldark borrowed £1000 presumably to buy the ore. However he was outbid, even on his own ore, so he could pay back the £1000 (admittedly at an eye-watering interest rate ) and also made more money on his own ore? Or(e) am I completely misunderstanding everything?
I didn't see that in the list I thought it was putrid throat they had, but now you mention it, it was putrid fever wasn't it? (Even the word putrid sounds :o)
I wasn't really very happy about that scene, and wonder now how the producers will deal with the "future" that others have cryptically referred to now that Ross has told Elizabeth squarely that she means nothing to him any more (in the romantic sense).
I thought that was a whip sting at her that was uncalled for. She had gone to try and help Demelza as a return favour so why did he cut her so acutely?
I am no fan of Elizabeth but she did end up in an unhappy marriage only becasue she thought Ross was not coming home. And now she has Warleggan making eyes at her. Her fate is truly blighted.
I can see how cruel it was from Elizabeth's POV. But Ross was speaking from a place where he has lost his child because Demelza went to nurse Elizabeth and her family including her son who survived. It is possible to read that scene as Ross projecting his own anger at Elizabeth and in particular at a family who sees his wife as a piece of nothing (although Elizabeth has never felt like that toward Demelza). If it was cruel what Ross said to Elizabeth and how he said it, it is really nothing compared with the painful loss of a child.
Up thread someone said that in the book Elizabeth was still recovering to be of any help to Demelza when she became ill. So it was interesting that the producers decided to re-write that whole episode. In terms of how the "future" will be dealt there is another way to read that whole scene with Ross and Elizabeth. It was the only time Ross has been able to get at Elizabeth. Up till then he was able to tell Francis angrily in the pit concerning Elizabeth "not to rub it in his face", but he has never been able to direct his pain anger and loss at Elizabeth. It seethes with venom, yes, but it also conceals a truth about Ross's feelings: he may still love Elizabeth, but he remains powerless to do anything about it.
Comments
I think you've been watching different scenes - a sociopath?? Really???
And Francis did that all on his own - just because George was in the room it doesn't mean he had anything to do with it. Ross was in the room too - is he culpable as well then?!
I think it was clear that Francis is (or was, dunno what happens next year) on a very self-destructive negative path. And he's more interesting for it. Even when George visted them after Verity left he wasn't the orchastrator of that situation - Francis was in foul bitter mood before he came through the door. He spilled his guts very willingly. Its not as if George had to put any pressure on. In fact George had just forgiven his debts.
I blame Francis for everything Francis has done. 100%. He had a great life, a nice wife.....and he resented all of it for no good reason.
Yes that would just have kept the price of ore low. They were individual mine owners primarily, their interest was in pushing the price of the ore up in the long term.
That's the special genius of the book, and it takes an actor of Jack Farthing's calibre to make such a character engaging and even sympathetic.
I'm thinking aloud here. I'm not sure how the economics works, but if their own smelting works smelted their own ore would the price of the ore matter? Surely the only cost which would matter to them would be the final refined metal?
The smelting company and the mines are not all the same economic unit. The smelting company has shareholders in common with the mines, but they are all separate companies.
That's how I saw it too. He knew Francis was weak so he exploited that weakness.
Girl who played Poldark's tragic daughter nearly died in real life
No, me neither! But generally the Carnmore company was a co-operative so any profits would get split between many owners. As individual mine owners what they really wanted was a high ore price which is where the greater profit would lie for them, but this was not possible with the Smelting cartel orchestrated by the Warleggans who wanted the ore price kept low.
Cornwall's remote and 'confined' geography also helped this state of affairs.
My head hurts
Lots of mentions of putrid throat in late 18th Century and 19th Century newspaper but all seem to be various potions that were supposed to cure it. Snake Oil!
But I guess in this instance it's about:
- efficiency - having a consistent supply and volume of ore, so it's economically worthwhile to operate a smelting works
- spreading the risk - if your mine runs dry you can focus on the smelting side. In a fair market you pay a reasonable price for the raw material but can still sell your added-value product on at a profit.
- but what do I know, I'm just a writer
I wasn't really very happy about that scene, and wonder now how the producers will deal with the "future" that others have cryptically referred to now that Ross has told Elizabeth squarely that she means nothing to him any more (in the romantic sense).
I thought that was a whip sting at her that was uncalled for. She had gone to try and help Demelza as a return favour so why did he cut her so acutely?
I am no fan of Elizabeth but she did end up in an unhappy marriage only becasue she thought Ross was not coming home. And now she has Warleggan making eyes at her. Her fate is truly blighted.
Phew!
Don't you think George played on that? Then stoked and manipulated Francis' anger. George did refer to Ross as having been Elizabeth's first love... that whole scene is George reminding - subtly - Francis of all the stuff he dislikes about Ross. Easy peasy, next thing Francis can't help himself but betray the man he is jealous of.
This adaptation hasn't been particularly kind toward Francis, but it has, to me at least, shown quite clearly why he feels the way he does - he has plenty of good reason for his jealousy and resentment. We saw how his father bullied him, so that he always felt inadequate - even on Charles's death bed, he was still running Francis down and comparing him unfavourably with his cousin, whose shadow Francis grew up in. That inferiority complex has been crippling for Francis. He also knows damn well he was Elizabeth's second choice, that if Ross hadn't gone off to war and been presumed dead she'd never have looked twice at him. So not only is Ross the son Francis's father wished he'd had, he's also the husband Francis's wife wishes she'd had. There was never much passion in their marriage and it died completely once Geoffrey Charles was born. So he feels second best to Ross in more ways than one. He sees Ross making a success of his business ventures (or at least appearing to) and forging a happy marriage with his kitchen maid, while the business Francis inherited goes down the toilet and his own marriage flounders. He's a weak man and his sense of inadequacy led to self-destructiveness. Just because he inherited a big house and got the girl Ross wanted first, doesn't mean he has a perfect life. He's extremely privileged compared with his tenants and miners, but that doesn't make him immune to stress, anxiety and depression - especially since he knows he has failed in the responsibilities that daunted him so when he inherited.
And George played him like a fiddle.
It's all flippin' complicated! A thought which has just occurred to me though. If the Warleggan's company are pushing the price of ore up to stop Carnmore, then surely that's only beneficial to the mine owners? Last night Poldark borrowed £1000 presumably to buy the ore. However he was outbid, even on his own ore, so he could pay back the £1000 (admittedly at an eye-watering interest rate
I didn't see that in the list
I can see how cruel it was from Elizabeth's POV. But Ross was speaking from a place where he has lost his child because Demelza went to nurse Elizabeth and her family including her son who survived. It is possible to read that scene as Ross projecting his own anger at Elizabeth and in particular at a family who sees his wife as a piece of nothing (although Elizabeth has never felt like that toward Demelza). If it was cruel what Ross said to Elizabeth and how he said it, it is really nothing compared with the painful loss of a child.
Up thread someone said that in the book Elizabeth was still recovering to be of any help to Demelza when she became ill. So it was interesting that the producers decided to re-write that whole episode. In terms of how the "future" will be dealt there is another way to read that whole scene with Ross and Elizabeth. It was the only time Ross has been able to get at Elizabeth. Up till then he was able to tell Francis angrily in the pit concerning Elizabeth "not to rub it in his face", but he has never been able to direct his pain anger and loss at Elizabeth. It seethes with venom, yes, but it also conceals a truth about Ross's feelings: he may still love Elizabeth, but he remains powerless to do anything about it.