It's got nothing to do with proclaiming losses or predicted takings. It's about actual money that hasn't gone to the exchequer. The teasury has less money as a direct result of Carr and his accountant's choice of tax avoidance scheme.
The scheme in questions was blatently not within the spirit of the law. It's an exploit of a loophole that may not even be legal. Even if it is, it is not what was intended by the tax men, so this talk of it being predicted and therefore nothing to do with there not being enough money is silly.
Back to basics, if you compare it with the water shortages in the South East. A hose-pipe ban was one part of it, but the water companies are also expected to plug the leaks. The rich (and sometimes famous) people using spurious tax dodges are the equivalent of the leaking pipes. People who are fans of cuts are bound to want the focus to stay on that, but there is no getting away from the fact that less cuts would be required if the tax revenue system wasn't so leaky in the first place.
In a drought scenario, we might need to be more careful with how we, the customers, use water, but is there a single person here who doesn't think that the water companies should be doing more to collect and conserve it in the first place?
I have no objection to paying a fair tax rate. But if you try and take half of everything I earn then I'm going to employ avoidance tactics.
To the people who thought that Carr/Barlow were right to avoid tax: do you think it was wrong (maybe even 'morally wrong') of Jimmy Carr to apologise and withdraw from the K2 Tax scheme?
And yes, I know it's legal but that's not the point. Nor is hypocrisy (though that doesn't help things). These people are incredibly wealthy, they earn more in a couple of years than most people earn in a lifetime. Gary Barlow is worth over £40 million and Jimmy Carr apparently has a personal fortune of £3.3 million. To put that in some perspective, if someone gave you £50,000 a year (tax free) it would take you 60 years to amass £3 million.
They have absolutely no need to avoid tax. They would still be multi-millionaires if they paid it all. The issue is that people who have vast fortunes pay tax at a rate far less than what ordinary people pay, because they can afford the accountants to get around the law. Like in so many other things, it seems to be one rule for the rich and another for the poor.
And yes, the government absolutely should close off loop holes but that does not excuse the people who do avoid tax. You don't just accidentally end up paying 3% tax or putting tens of millions of pounds into a scheme. These things are choices and, despite what some people here have said, they are NOT choices that everyone would make or, even, choices that all celebs/rich people make.
J.K. Rowling, for example, is one of the world's richest women and has spoken quite a bit about how her accountant told her she could avoid tax, but she chose not to because she feels it is her duty to pay back into the system that supported her for years. A combination of her charitable donations and un-reduced tax bill even caused her to drop off the Forbes billionaire list a couple of years ago but, somehow, she manages to survive with a mere £650 million fortune.
Tax avoidance is an act of greed, taking advantage of a system to the detriment of others.
I like the way Carrs now said he did wrong, and won't be doing it again, but only because it came out, as you know for a fact, he'd have carried on, got to save that career ey Jimmy
Good for them, I would do exactly the same. Why would you CHOOSE to pay tax? Perhaps if everyone in the country was taxed at the same percentage this would not happen. The rich will always pay more tax, but I can't fathom how it is 'fair' or shows even a strand of 'equality' for them to have to give a higher percentage of their earnings than the rest of the country. The government tax us when we buy goods, pay for a service, buy a house, sell the house, pay for petrol, national insurance, PAYE, are given particular gifts, inherit property (whether or not it is cash, meaning you have to sell the property just to meet your tax bill and also possibly incur ANOTHER charge for capital gains purposes) etc.
I don't think it's a moral obligation to pay tax unless we are genuinely 'all in this together' and we just aren't.
I am not rich btw, but it baffles my mind how much of my hard earned money the government has a right to take, especially if I work harder and end up earning more than the lower rate.
Good for them, I would do exactly the same. Why would you CHOOSE to pay tax? Perhaps if everyone in the country was taxed at the same percentage this would not happen. The rich will always pay more tax, but I can't fathom how it is 'fair' or shows even a strand of 'equality' for them to have to give a higher percentage of their earnings than the rest of the country. The government tax us when we buy goods, pay for a service, buy a house, sell the house, pay for petrol, national insurance, PAYE, are given particular gifts, inherit property (whether or not it is cash, meaning you have to sell the property just to meet your tax bill and also possibly incur ANOTHER charge for capital gains purposes) etc.
I don't think it's a moral obligation to pay tax unless we are genuinely 'all in this together' and we just aren't.
I am not rich btw, but it baffles my mind how much of my hard earned money the government has a right to take, especially if I work harder and end up earning more than the lower rate.
If only they were paying the same tax rate as everyone else! Jimmy Carr used the K2 scheme to pay tax somewhere in the region of 1-3%. Far, far lower than even the lowest rate of tax. Is that fair?
And maybe most people wouldn't chose to pay taxes, but taxation pays for the shared resources of the country and if everyone had that choice it would lead to a tragedy of the commons. People like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr were born in NHS hospitals, attended state schools and publicly funded universities, all paid for by general taxation. Yet now they want to pay little tax as possible.
They wouldn't pay the top rate of tax on all their earnings, anyway, just what they earn over £150,000 (about 6 times the average wage) a year. As I said earlier, they could pay all their tax, avoiding none, and remain extremely wealthy individuals with more money than most will see in their lifetime. If they didn't avoid their tax, they would follow the same tax code as everyone else. And I would rather have a system in which everyone obeys the same code than one in which greed and the cost of your accountant determines how much tax you pay. I don't see how anyone can justify a system in which rich people live by different rules than everybody else. And that goes for whoever the rich people are, be it popstars, politicians or bankers.
Given the opportunity, I'll probably consider decreasing my taxes but not by Carr-esq proportions given the fact I rely heavily on public services. However, what gets me with this story is the fact these prominent tax dodgers are the very same people who charities use to front their campaigns for more donations. Between them, if they pay their fair share of taxes, there'll probably be no need for such campaigns.
If only they were paying the same tax rate as everyone else! Jimmy Carr used the K2 scheme to pay tax somewhere in the region of 1-3%. Far, far lower than even the lowest rate of tax. Is that fair?
And maybe most people wouldn't chose to pay taxes, but taxation pays for the shared resources of the country and if everyone had that choice it would lead to a tragedy of the commons. People like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr were born in NHS hospitals, attended state schools and publicly funded universities, all paid for by general taxation. Yet now they want to pay little tax as possible.
They wouldn't pay the top rate of tax on all their earnings, anyway, just what they earn over £150,000 (about 6 times the average wage) a year. As I said earlier, they could pay all their tax, avoiding none, and remain extremely wealthy individuals with more money than most will see in their lifetime. If they didn't avoid their tax, they would follow the same tax code as everyone else. And I would rather have a system in which everyone obeys the same code than one in which greed and the cost of your accountant determines how much tax you pay. I don't see how anyone can justify a system in which rich people live by different rules than everybody else. And that goes for whoever the rich people are, be it popstars, politicians or bankers.
From what I read the "1%" figure was not tax at that rate, merely that of what he should have paid he is paying close to that. He's still paying more tax than most. He only pays up to the highest band. The reason he stops at that amount is because of the FIFTY percent rate at the time, and even now, the 45% rate. It is morally repugnant to me to have anywhere near that amount taken from my earnings by the government, especially when we have absolutely no control over how it is spent. The amount of funding you would generate the country could arguably be used for things that you perhaps are not comfortable with, such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If the tax rate was the same for everyone, and if these tactics were carried out, I would agree absolutely in their condemnation. But all I see is people being smart to avoid an injustice created by our beloved government.
Writers like Gary Barlow have periods where they earn loads, and periods where they earn less as they are writing new material.
Ben Elton got criticised years ago for setting himself up as a company, when he started writing novels instead of doing stand-up for this reason.
Being registered as a company means you can even out your finances so you dont get a huge tax bill from your last album/ book, during a time when you haven't earned much as you are writing your next project.
Jimmy Carr is supposed to be a "cutting edge" stand-up who has performed huge amounts of material on bankers and politicians etc not paying their fair share of tax.
I wonder if there is a clip in the 10 o'clock live archive of him laying into Lord Ashcroft, or Phillip Green, or Tony Blair etc etc
Most comedians are sell-outs these days, advertising crap, selling their DVD's.
By contrast , Stewart Lee's Latest tour is "sponsored" by "Carpet Remnant World"
Good for them, I would do exactly the same. Why would you CHOOSE to pay tax? Perhaps if everyone in the country was taxed at the same percentage this would not happen. The rich will always pay more tax, but I can't fathom how it is 'fair' or shows even a strand of 'equality' for them to have to give a higher percentage of their earnings than the rest of the country. The government tax us when we buy goods, pay for a service, buy a house, sell the house, pay for petrol, national insurance, PAYE, are given particular gifts, inherit property (whether or not it is cash, meaning you have to sell the property just to meet your tax bill and also possibly incur ANOTHER charge for capital gains purposes) etc.
I don't think it's a moral obligation to pay tax unless we are genuinely 'all in this together' and we just aren't.
I am not rich btw, but it baffles my mind how much of my hard earned money the government has a right to take, especially if I work harder and end up earning more than the lower rate.
Totally agree with this. What I find immoral is a government trying to influence the poorer people into believing that rich people are immoral for looking after their finances.
Why would anyone whoever you are whatever you earn want to pay tax. If you scale it down to a lot lower level isn't the reason smokers and drinkers do booze cruises to get cheaper stuff to avoid paying our excess VAT.
Totally agree with this. What I find immoral is a government trying to influence the poorer people into believing that rich people are immoral for looking after their finances.
Why would anyone whoever you are whatever you earn want to pay tax. If you scale it down to a lot lower level isn't the reason smokers and drinkers do booze cruises to get cheaper stuff to avoid paying our excess VAT.
Jimmy Carr acted perfectly legally end of.
But Jimmy Carr himself has admitted what he did was wrong and irresponsible, so clearly not "end of".
But Jimmy Carr himself has admitted what he did was wrong and irresponsible, so clearly not "end of".
But that I don't agree with. I don't think he needs to apologise for something which should be personal. If someone published my financial information I would be livid. Just because he is a celebrity is irrelevant. He has no moral duty to anyone. He is not in government.
But that I don't agree with. I don't think he needs to apologise for something which should be personal. If someone published my financial information I would be livid. Just because he is a celebrity is irrelevant. He has no moral duty to anyone. He is not in government.
Fine if you think that, but you said earlier the issue was legality and it's clearly not. No one thinks that Carr/Barlow have done anything illegal. Lots of people think it should be illegal and is immoral though.
Fine if you think that, but you said earlier the issue was legality and it's clearly not. No one thinks that Carr/Barlow have done anything illegal. Lots of people think it should be illegal and is immoral though.
Exactly. Gary Barlow getting an OBE when he avoids paying his due taxes into this country is reprehensible and, although it might not be illegal, it is morally wrong. It sh***s all over the ordinary people here who have no choice but to pay their taxes even though they earn a miniscule percentage of what he earns.:mad:
Exactly. Gary Barlow getting an OBE when he avoids paying his due taxes into this country is reprehensible and, although it might not be illegal, it is morally wrong. It sh***s all over the ordinary people here who have no choice but to pay their taxes even though they earn a miniscule percentage of what he earns.:mad:
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They also pay a miniscule percentage of the tax he does irrespective of any tax efficient measures he may take.
Fine if you think that, but you said earlier the issue was legality and it's clearly not. No one thinks that Carr/Barlow have done anything illegal. Lots of people think it should be illegal and is immoral though.
Some commentators has suggested that if the story as reported by the press is correct, then the K2 scheme may be illegal.
Some commentators has suggested that if the story as reported by the press is correct, then the K2 scheme may be illegal.
Yes, I've just seen that... To be honest, I doubt it is actually illegal, it all seems very vague and I'm sure his accountant is too clever for that. If it is though, by all means throw the book at him, I won't have much sympathy.
I do agree what Jimmy, and the others, who SHOULD be named, rather than have all the focus on him, is morally wrong.
However, ill being honest, i'd do exactly the same if i had that sort of money. Who does like paying tax anyway? Yes we have too, but we all moan about it. If there is a loophole to do avoid it, or paying less, and its legal, then why not? like i said, i would.
Another thing, if i did what he was doing, its less money that is going towards the people that are cheating the benefit system, but thats a different topic altogether
Jimmy Carr is supposed to be a "cutting edge" stand-up who has performed huge amounts of material on bankers and politicians etc not paying their fair share of tax.
I wonder if there is a clip in the 10 o'clock live archive of him laying into Lord Ashcroft, or Phillip Green, or Tony Blair etc etc
Most comedians are sell-outs these days, advertising crap, selling their DVD's.
By contrast , Stewart Lee's Latest tour is "sponsored" by "Carpet Remnant World"
People seem to continue to mention this.
As far as I can recall he hasn't done any material like that in any of his standup gigs.
I don't think he's even done it on 8Oo10C.
He did do it on 10 O'Clock Live but it's a topical satirical politics show and if he wasn't doing it then one of the cast would have been taking the p.
For all we knew Carr was reading out other people's jokes/script on that topic.
In the end he's a standup and tells jokes to suit the audience.
He's said in the past that he would still make cancer jokes even though his mother died of it.
Taking into account that many of his jokes are pun based it's not as heartless as it sounds.
But Jimmy Carr himself has admitted what he did was wrong and irresponsible, so clearly not "end of".
i would guess that Jimmy Carr is not so stupid as to ignore people, maybe his agent, ringing up in panic telling him that he needs to do some damage limitation and fast to protect future revenue. i would imagine that secretly, jimmy is pretty narked about this.
And if all the millionaires/billionaires, famous and otherwise, paid their fair share then tax could be lowered for everyone.
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Its not fair though, tax is by definition a percentage so someone earning £1000 on 25% tax would pay £250 and someone on £1000,000 will pay £250,000 tax.
Making them pay 46% is just morally unjustifiable, especially as there are not enough of them to make any difference to the overall government tax receipts. They would gain 50 times as much income by raising the base rate 1% point for everyone.
if I was in their place I would do exactly the same and I do, to some extent.
Would people still think it was ok to avoid paying tax when their local hospitals are closing .. When we have to pay for treatment because we don't have enough money to maintain a free service.when we have to pay for schooling for the same reason.. Like I said yesterday its not illegal but it is morally wrong...
Comments
I have no objection to paying a fair tax rate. But if you try and take half of everything I earn then I'm going to employ avoidance tactics.
And yes, I know it's legal but that's not the point. Nor is hypocrisy (though that doesn't help things). These people are incredibly wealthy, they earn more in a couple of years than most people earn in a lifetime. Gary Barlow is worth over £40 million and Jimmy Carr apparently has a personal fortune of £3.3 million. To put that in some perspective, if someone gave you £50,000 a year (tax free) it would take you 60 years to amass £3 million.
They have absolutely no need to avoid tax. They would still be multi-millionaires if they paid it all. The issue is that people who have vast fortunes pay tax at a rate far less than what ordinary people pay, because they can afford the accountants to get around the law. Like in so many other things, it seems to be one rule for the rich and another for the poor.
Of course, when it's only anonymous bankers or hated politicians that are accuse of this sort of thing then everyone agrees that tax avoidance is wrong, but as soon as it involves a well-liked celebrity, excuses pop up everywhere. One telling example of this is from The Sun. When it emerged that Ken Livingstone had set up his own company to avoid paying as much tax, The Sun heavily criticised him (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4187860/Kens-tax-affairs-show-hes-slimy-as-his-newts.html) yet when One Direction avoid tax by exactly the same method, it's praised as a shrewd business move (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/music/4201957/Were-One-Directors.html).
And yes, the government absolutely should close off loop holes but that does not excuse the people who do avoid tax. You don't just accidentally end up paying 3% tax or putting tens of millions of pounds into a scheme. These things are choices and, despite what some people here have said, they are NOT choices that everyone would make or, even, choices that all celebs/rich people make.
J.K. Rowling, for example, is one of the world's richest women and has spoken quite a bit about how her accountant told her she could avoid tax, but she chose not to because she feels it is her duty to pay back into the system that supported her for years. A combination of her charitable donations and un-reduced tax bill even caused her to drop off the Forbes billionaire list a couple of years ago but, somehow, she manages to survive with a mere £650 million fortune.
Tax avoidance is an act of greed, taking advantage of a system to the detriment of others.
I don't think it's a moral obligation to pay tax unless we are genuinely 'all in this together' and we just aren't.
I am not rich btw, but it baffles my mind how much of my hard earned money the government has a right to take, especially if I work harder and end up earning more than the lower rate.
If only they were paying the same tax rate as everyone else! Jimmy Carr used the K2 scheme to pay tax somewhere in the region of 1-3%. Far, far lower than even the lowest rate of tax. Is that fair?
And maybe most people wouldn't chose to pay taxes, but taxation pays for the shared resources of the country and if everyone had that choice it would lead to a tragedy of the commons. People like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr were born in NHS hospitals, attended state schools and publicly funded universities, all paid for by general taxation. Yet now they want to pay little tax as possible.
They wouldn't pay the top rate of tax on all their earnings, anyway, just what they earn over £150,000 (about 6 times the average wage) a year. As I said earlier, they could pay all their tax, avoiding none, and remain extremely wealthy individuals with more money than most will see in their lifetime. If they didn't avoid their tax, they would follow the same tax code as everyone else. And I would rather have a system in which everyone obeys the same code than one in which greed and the cost of your accountant determines how much tax you pay. I don't see how anyone can justify a system in which rich people live by different rules than everybody else. And that goes for whoever the rich people are, be it popstars, politicians or bankers.
:Sigh:
From what I read the "1%" figure was not tax at that rate, merely that of what he should have paid he is paying close to that. He's still paying more tax than most. He only pays up to the highest band. The reason he stops at that amount is because of the FIFTY percent rate at the time, and even now, the 45% rate. It is morally repugnant to me to have anywhere near that amount taken from my earnings by the government, especially when we have absolutely no control over how it is spent. The amount of funding you would generate the country could arguably be used for things that you perhaps are not comfortable with, such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If the tax rate was the same for everyone, and if these tactics were carried out, I would agree absolutely in their condemnation. But all I see is people being smart to avoid an injustice created by our beloved government.
Ben Elton got criticised years ago for setting himself up as a company, when he started writing novels instead of doing stand-up for this reason.
Being registered as a company means you can even out your finances so you dont get a huge tax bill from your last album/ book, during a time when you haven't earned much as you are writing your next project.
Jimmy Carr is supposed to be a "cutting edge" stand-up who has performed huge amounts of material on bankers and politicians etc not paying their fair share of tax.
I wonder if there is a clip in the 10 o'clock live archive of him laying into Lord Ashcroft, or Phillip Green, or Tony Blair etc etc
Most comedians are sell-outs these days, advertising crap, selling their DVD's.
By contrast , Stewart Lee's Latest tour is "sponsored" by "Carpet Remnant World"
Totally agree with this. What I find immoral is a government trying to influence the poorer people into believing that rich people are immoral for looking after their finances.
Why would anyone whoever you are whatever you earn want to pay tax. If you scale it down to a lot lower level isn't the reason smokers and drinkers do booze cruises to get cheaper stuff to avoid paying our excess VAT.
Jimmy Carr acted perfectly legally end of.
But Jimmy Carr himself has admitted what he did was wrong and irresponsible, so clearly not "end of".
But that I don't agree with. I don't think he needs to apologise for something which should be personal. If someone published my financial information I would be livid. Just because he is a celebrity is irrelevant. He has no moral duty to anyone. He is not in government.
Fine if you think that, but you said earlier the issue was legality and it's clearly not. No one thinks that Carr/Barlow have done anything illegal. Lots of people think it should be illegal and is immoral though.
Exactly. Gary Barlow getting an OBE when he avoids paying his due taxes into this country is reprehensible and, although it might not be illegal, it is morally wrong. It sh***s all over the ordinary people here who have no choice but to pay their taxes even though they earn a miniscule percentage of what he earns.:mad:
.
They also pay a miniscule percentage of the tax he does irrespective of any tax efficient measures he may take.
Some commentators has suggested that if the story as reported by the press is correct, then the K2 scheme may be illegal.
And if all the millionaires/billionaires, famous and otherwise, paid their fair share then tax could be lowered for everyone.
Yes, I've just seen that... To be honest, I doubt it is actually illegal, it all seems very vague and I'm sure his accountant is too clever for that. If it is though, by all means throw the book at him, I won't have much sympathy.
However, ill being honest, i'd do exactly the same if i had that sort of money. Who does like paying tax anyway? Yes we have too, but we all moan about it. If there is a loophole to do avoid it, or paying less, and its legal, then why not? like i said, i would.
Another thing, if i did what he was doing, its less money that is going towards the people that are cheating the benefit system, but thats a different topic altogether
As far as I can recall he hasn't done any material like that in any of his standup gigs.
I don't think he's even done it on 8Oo10C.
He did do it on 10 O'Clock Live but it's a topical satirical politics show and if he wasn't doing it then one of the cast would have been taking the p.
For all we knew Carr was reading out other people's jokes/script on that topic.
In the end he's a standup and tells jokes to suit the audience.
He's said in the past that he would still make cancer jokes even though his mother died of it.
Taking into account that many of his jokes are pun based it's not as heartless as it sounds.
This.
i would guess that Jimmy Carr is not so stupid as to ignore people, maybe his agent, ringing up in panic telling him that he needs to do some damage limitation and fast to protect future revenue. i would imagine that secretly, jimmy is pretty narked about this.
Its not fair though, tax is by definition a percentage so someone earning £1000 on 25% tax would pay £250 and someone on £1000,000 will pay £250,000 tax.
Making them pay 46% is just morally unjustifiable, especially as there are not enough of them to make any difference to the overall government tax receipts. They would gain 50 times as much income by raising the base rate 1% point for everyone.
if I was in their place I would do exactly the same and I do, to some extent.
This. I so agree with this.