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Why can't Russia have Crimea?
Why is everybody in the world so dead against Russia having Crimea? (and I mean they have.. no supporters. Scotland, Palestine and Catalan attract a lot more.. general popular support for similar self-determination - even though very few majorities).
I find it also quite strange that despite the fact there is supposedly a universal right to self determination (and no problem with unilateral declarations of independence) upon what basis can Ukraine retain Crimea?
Ukraines own laws requiring everybody in the country to vote on any such referendum is surely a violation of the rights of the people living in Crimea?
A lot of pro-EU Crimeans and Tartars have now left so it really is a Russian stronghold.
Why don't they have the right to determine themselves?
Why does anyone care about this tiny patch of land other than the Russians? Let 'em have it.
Maybe I'm missing something blindingly obvious here.. but I doubt it.
I find it also quite strange that despite the fact there is supposedly a universal right to self determination (and no problem with unilateral declarations of independence) upon what basis can Ukraine retain Crimea?
Ukraines own laws requiring everybody in the country to vote on any such referendum is surely a violation of the rights of the people living in Crimea?
A lot of pro-EU Crimeans and Tartars have now left so it really is a Russian stronghold.
Why don't they have the right to determine themselves?
Why does anyone care about this tiny patch of land other than the Russians? Let 'em have it.
Maybe I'm missing something blindingly obvious here.. but I doubt it.
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But I'd say that the main problem is how Russia are going about it.
Ukraine in the middle of an upheaval and Russia rushing in to take advantage of the situation and swipe Crimea off Ukraine.
Russia can't decide to just override Ukrainian laws and decide for themselves that they are going to hold a referendum of which the result would mean Ukraine losing Crimea.
You just can't do that.
But why not if the native population there genuinely aren't happy about the Ukranian revolution?
Why shouldn't change happen quickly under those conditions? The rest of Ukraine is changing very quickly in a different way.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly obviously pro-EU and think the revolution is a great thing for most of the rest of Ukraine (which reminds me, why do The Crimeans, Russians and a few others call the revolutionaries fascists and Nazis?
I've had a little look and even the Eastern parts of Ukraine don't seem to be as pro-Russia as Crimea, I'd describe it as a stronghold.
It seems baffling that most nations and people are SO against something which seems almost inevitable - not because of Russian pressure - but because of genuine public consent in Crimea.
Okay - I'll grant you there are some pro-Ukraine/West/EU in Crimea, including the Tartars, but they are rapidly becoming a minority - and those that don't want to be part of Russia have the freedom to leave for Ukraine Proper where they will be received warmly.. what more can you say/do?
I can see why other countries are not in favour, I mean where would you stop if you allowed any area/region to suddenly decide one day that they didnt want to be a member of Country 'X' and wanted to join Country 'Y' - it would be chaos.
Passport to Pimlico anyone?
Because you can't no matter what the result would be.
What if Russia decided to take control of a UK region in the same manner and offer a referendum?
Would that be okay?
It doesn't matter what the result would be, they're not in the position where they have the authority to do that and dismiss international laws.
If you think it is okay then it would set a precedent where all sorts of countries could inflict their will onto other countries and do the same if they felt like it.
You say that it's okay to ignore the wishes of the Tartars because they're a minority, and becoming even more of a minority.
No it certainly isn't okay. It's because they are a minority they need to feel protected by their own state and there is a duty for a state to protect its own citizens. You can't just think sod them they're only a minority. They are already being bullied and abused by some of the pro-Russia mob.
Should Crimea become a part of Russia if things were set in motion in the right way?
Maybe.
Russia is setting itself up for potential 'freedom fighters' as well as scaring the crap out of 40% (or whatever) of the voters.
for a start the russian army is on the ground in the crimea. hardly the climate in which to hold a referendum.
can you imagine us deploying the army to the streets of ireland and then having a referendum if they wanted to join the UK?
When the democratically elected government of Ukraine was violently overthrown it changes the rules . The Crimeans have a right to self determination and shuld be allowed to rejoin Russia. It is only 60 years ago they left.
The Russian speakers call many in the west of Ukraine fascists and Nazis for two reasons. Firstly because some of them are, there are fascist members of the new government. Secondly during WWII many in the west of Ukraine collaborated with the Germans and supported their occupation. This was not the case in other parts. It was similar in Yugoslavia withe the Croatians supporting the Germans and the Serbs fighting against them .
Can you imagine Ireland's elected government being violently overthrow and the UK not protecting its assets if it had similar naval bases as in the case of the black sea fleet?
I feel sorry for the minority who've had to leave or will be stuck living under Russian rule.
What will happen to the Ukraine Army in Crimea?
Don't forget the Ukraine wasn't a separate state until 1991. They all seemed to be getting along OK until then.
Nationalism - wherever it's to be found - don'tcha just love it?
It was alright for the Americans to override Iraqi law and decide for themselves to hold elections the result of which meant an American style government in Iraq. It seems that when you invent a threat to civilians most people are happy for you to go to war and honestly it just seems like America isn't happy that another country is using their gimmick.
Yes, but that was different because.....well.....erm......it just was.
Yes, as was the overthrow of the Ukrainian president.
Good point. If Kosovo can secede then potentially any region of a country can. The west has set a precedent.
the Kosovo and Crimea are different issues though, as Russia invaded Crimea and then said it would hold a referendum. No one invaded Kosovo.
If Crimea had wanted to go independent in a similar matter to how Scotland is dealing with this issue, then no one would have been upset.
I thought the whole of the people of the Ukraine would get to vote under their law, not just Crimeans - unlike Scotland?
Russia has had a massive naval presence in Crimea by agreement with Ukraine. Sure they have sent additional troops to the area but one has to respect the restraint they have shown and consider their right to protect their ethnic neighbours. Comparison with Kosovo is valid in legal terms but there is no comparison in terms of violence and military activity. No Russian aircraft bombing anywhere in Crimea!
That suggests the US war of independance was illegal. As was any movement of people against their rulers. Every revolution. Every protest movement. Every uprising. Every <Middle_eastern_country>/<colour> Spring.
Then in 1992 they had a referendum where over three quarters voted for the 1992 Crimea constitution underwhich Crimea's relationship with Ukraine would be determined by treaty and agreement not Ukrainian dictate. This 1992 referendum was oringially going to be for an independent Crimea no longer part of Ukraine but Ukraine had the wording changed and changed it to a non binding vote rather than a referendum.
The 1992 referendum or non binding vote depending on how you view it led to Crimea having its 1992 constitution with the begrudging agreement of Ukraine.
Then in 1994 as Crimea was about to hold a referendum on reunification with Russia they were stopped by Ukraine. Ukraine stopped the referendum scrapped the Crimean constitution of 1992 then put in place a new Ukrainian dictated Crimean constitution. Despite widespread protests in Crimea at the time.
All this started because the Ukrainians wanted to join the EU which would have taken years anyway. The majority of people in the UK are minded to withdraw from the EU, but won't be given a referendum (apart as being offered as a potential sweet, as and when necessary).
Well yes, of course they are all illegal. They only become the legal government if/when they win.
Things get tend to become legal if and when a particular countries civil service decides to obey instructions from their new masters.