Because whenever there is a job to be done it is sensible to get a few quotes.
Why would you suggest being paid in cash?
OK that's confused me but OK have it your way, several quotes is always a good idea.
As a business unless work/repairs/installations are account based, then the only three ways to pay for work was cash/cheque/debit/credit card, we no longer accept cheques for repairs/maintenance unless arranged in advance so our/clients options are cash or card payments.
Some times a client give us no choice, gives us cash, I hate carrying cash on the vans, so do my staff, preferring debit/credit card transactions, so much safer.
Year and years ago before VAT and just after it's introduction the expression/question was " is this going through the books?", in other words pay us cash, no invoice and we can make the job /work a bit cheaper as the money won't be going through our accounts/books,---- famous UK black economy and to a degree it still exists today.
It's when VAT went up to 15% that cash was king and VAT registered companies like ours really lost out on the private work.
Private clients/customers simply did not want to pay an extra 15/% on top of the bill, they couldn't claim it back, business customers could, they could claim the VAT back in a round about way.
So as a company we focused on business, council and HA contracts.
Ever seen/been sold a carpet out of the back of a Van, hold that memory, I'll explain where I'm going with that later on.
Moving on to recent times,, 17.5% or 20% on top of a bill/invoice is a lot of extra money for private clients.
Cowboys/rip off merchants and to be fair the relatively honest Joe tradesman will undertake work, cash in hand, no record of money changing hands, no tax/VAT paid, client is happy, maybe saved a packet in VAT, trades person is happy, cash in pocket.
The near honest Joe will, regardless of giving no/invoice or receipt always want the client to be happy.
But there is this stupid thinking among cowboys trades people and honest others, that no receipts/invoice, no come back from the customer if things go wrong.
And the customer who is paying cash in hand, thinks it to, paying cheap but taking a chance but it is bollocks thinking from all parties.
If a customer can prove, when things go wrong, a cash in hand/forget the VAT contractor, undertook work, that customer has legal redress under certain conditions.
But proof is needed, a receipt/invoice makes that a whole lot easier.
However there have been some case law if I recall where there has been no hope of retrieving VAT lost on cash jobs and HMRC has looked to the original customer, not the trades person to retrieve that loss where it can show collusion between all parties.
So dear readers, any that are, you can pay a hard working, pleasant, Eastern European probably not permitted to do the work but will do a job, well or poor, yer pays yer money, you take your chance and to be fair, in the buliding trades, some are very good at what they do.
Or you find and pay someone like Camer, LCD, Chimp, who may not be VAT registered because they don't have to be but you get a shed load of qualifications/study and experience and a job professionaly done where a legal requirement exists to have work undertaken by such a qualified person .
Or I/my company who will give you the same or better service then the above,( well I had to say that didn't I ) but has to charge VAT on our work/services due to size and turn over.
Third generation, following in the footsteps of my grandfather and uncle.
Haven't worked as one for a long time now, so don't ask me for advice:p
For work, I still move in construction/building circles from time to time and have heard some horror stories about electricians from Romania, none about Polish workers.
One thing I have noticed, mainly in housebuilding, whereby one lot of chaps will come in and first fix and someone else will come and second fix and test.
I've also spoken to electricians on big office constructions, and they are great tradesmen and do a superb job, but never work on 'live' stuff that is the domain of others in the company.
It seems that there is a bit of a two tier system.
Yep you're best at ripping people off £550 for 4 hours work. Since when is £137 an hour fair.
lets be honest, its connecting a LNE cables. It's a manual job. That's all, It's not surgery. A quick test with an insulation tester.
Peanuts, £550 for half a days work. It cannot be justified so don't even try.
What an outrageous claim! we live in 'rip off Britain' everything here costs more, food, fuel, utilities. We earn enough to compensate, which will never be enough. Charging £550 for a job does not equate to ' per hour'. What about the cost of materials? Fuel? Training? Time invested? Expertise? And a service provided? We live in a capitalist society, we have to earn a living. I argue that the consumer equally tries to rip people off. My partner is an electrician (he would have charged about £480 btw), he was asked by a business person recently for a quote to move a socket in his shop. My partner said £40 . Shop keeper replied " will you do it for £20" ?!! :eek: it would have cost £20 for materials people want something done for nothing!
I find there are plenty of people who have paid cheap prices that end up coming to my firm to put it right, often paying more or less what they would have paid me in the first place.
Marcus, I dont work in a factory on an hourly rate. I travel to the customers' property with an array of alternative equipment in my van (all top notch professional equipment, not B&Q domestic crap), i assess the requirements and discuss with the customer then get on with it. Giving whatever guarantees and certificates are required (by law) on completion. For this service I expect paying and paying the rate that I have discussed prior to commencement.
I have a massive customer base (having been in business for over 23 years), we carry out contract repairs on behalf of management agents and we do many "celebrities" one of which have actually said to me personally "I wouldnt want someone who charges less than £50 perr hour in my house".
I see estate agents driving round in Porsches, and they just take a photo of my house and advertise it (sorry any Estate Agents reading) I see footballers (foreign ones too) driving ferrarris for kicking a ball, I even see some local council offering its council tax payers money to its staff as exhorbitant redundency offers, so why should I be expected to scrimp and scrape just so Mr & Mrs Public (who in general couldnt care less about the person working on their property and quite often make themselves a cup of tea without offering the worker one) can get a cheap deal??
So dear readers, any that are, you can pay a hard working, pleasant, Eastern European probably not permitted to do the work but will do a job, well or poor, yer pays yer money, you take your chance and to be fair, in the buliding trades, some are very good at what they do.
Or you find and pay someone like Camer, LCD, Chimp, who may not be VAT registered because they don't have to be but you get a shed load of qualifications/study and experience and a job professionaly done where a legal requirement exists to have work undertaken by such a qualified person .
.
You see Seacam, for all your helpful informative posts, you insist on perpetuating the myth that with a British electrician, you are getting someone with:
a shed load of qualifications/study and experience and a job professionaly done where a legal requirement exists to have work undertaken by such a qualified person
In my experience, aside from the attitude problems and the over-charging, there are plenty of British 'electricians' who are neither qualified or permitted (to use your terms).
It should also be noted that there are plenty of non-British electricians who are both qualified and permitted.
In general, don't trust any tradesperson to tell you the truth about their own work or anyone else's, always check they are registered with the organisations they say they are.
If the paperwork isn't up to scratch, for any reason, don't hire them.
If they try to charge more than the agreed price for works, don't pay them (this happens a lot).
When they don't clean up after themselves, and they won't, let them know that they won't be paid until they do.
If you are not happy with the work do not pay them.
Many tradespeople are gobby arseholes with attitude problems, ask yourself: 'Would I want to work with this person?' If the answer is 'no'. Do not hire them.
I find there are plenty of people who have paid cheap prices that end up coming to my firm to put it right, often paying more or less what they would have paid me in the first place.
Marcus, I dont work in a factory on an hourly rate. I travel to the customers' property with an array of alternative equipment in my van (all top notch professional equipment, not B&Q domestic crap), i assess the requirements and discuss with the customer then get on with it. Giving whatever guarantees and certificates are required (by law) on completion. For this service I expect paying and paying the rate that I have discussed prior to commencement.
I have a massive customer base (having been in business for over 23 years), we carry out contract repairs on behalf of management agents and we do many "celebrities" one of which have actually said to me personally "I wouldnt want someone who charges less than £50 perr hour in my house".
I see estate agents driving round in Porsches, and they just take a photo of my house and advertise it (sorry any Estate Agents reading) I see footballers (foreign ones too) driving ferrarris for kicking a ball, I even see some local council offering its council tax payers money to its staff as exhorbitant redundency offers, so why should I be expected to scrimp and scrape just so Mr & Mrs Public (who in general couldnt care less about the person working on their property and quite often make themselves a cup of tea without offering the worker one) can get a cheap deal??
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Money, money, porsches, money, money, celebrities, money, money... look at my wad.
Typical tradesman.
You remind me of the guy who took affront to me pointing out he'd made a mess of my drainpipes by saying 'I've done jobs on million pound 'ouses'. Like I care, just clean the drainpipes you moron.
It may all be about money to you, but I would like a good job done thanks... whoever said 'I wouldn't have anyone in for less than £50' an hour is an idiot. Money does not guarantee a professional service.
I wouldn't hire you, because I can tell you think that the money = professionalism. Phrases like 'cheap B&Q rubbish' give you away... again, more myths, 'if it's from B&Q it's cheap rubbish', better hire a 'professional' eh?
Money, money, porsches, money, money, celebrities, money, money... look at my wad.
Typical tradesman.
You remind me of the guy who took affront to me pointing out he'd made a mess of my drainpipes by saying 'I've done jobs on million pound 'ouses'. Like I care, just clean the drainpipes you moron.
It may all be about money to you, but I would like a good job done thanks... whoever said 'I wouldn't have anyone in for less than £50' an hour is an idiot. Money does not guarantee a professional service.
I wouldn't hire you, because I can tell you think that the money = professionalism. Phrases like 'cheap B&Q rubbish' give you away... again, more myths, 'if it's from B&Q it's cheap rubbish', better hire a 'professional' eh?
I have purposely refrained from taking a personal pop at you despite you obviously being an arrogant gobshite so as you dont know me I would appreciate the same in return
incidenntally, you wouldn't hire me because as soon as you asked me to install your DIY sh1t I would walk away
Oh! woe is me, woe, double woe, thrice woe, being thought as either a pot or a kettle,
or arrogant.
Was not aimed at you Seacam.
You will always get the odd customer that 'knows better' than yourself when you try to explain the ins and outs of a job.
After 26 years in the appliance repair trade I know better than to waste my valuable time on them. If they think they can do better (or know a 'mate' who does) then let them get on with it.
There are numerous deaths each year due to people who 'know better' having read how to do something off the net.
There's a lot of talk on this thread about how to do things, or how things should be done. But there's not been mention of all those things that you 'don't do'. Those things that we have picked up, and learnt over time that are the things that could cause some serious damage to someone or something.
Why?
Because you can't, you cannot quantify that experience, you cannot put it into writing on a NB. It's just something you learn along the way that saves you time, trouble, and maybe pain.
People will pay what they're willing to pay, it's as simple as that. If they don't want to pay the 'going rate' they will turn to cheapier (often shoddier) means. It's their choice, but quite often it ends up costing them more as they then have to pay someone like me to come and put things right.
I have purposely refrained from taking a personal pop at you despite you obviously being an arrogant gobshite so as you dont know me I would appreciate the same in return
incidenntally, you wouldn't hire me because as soon as you asked me to install your DIY sh1t I would walk away
Gobshite eh?
Like I said, typical tradesman... not just an obsession with money, but a nasty streak too.
Let me explain something to you. I have never supplied anything from a DIY store to a tradesperson I have employed... however it is a fact that B&Q, Wickes et al supply many of the same products that your company uses everyday, the quality is no better or worse.. in some cases it will be the exact the same, just with different branding.
Your insistence that buying a product from B&Q automatically makes it 'cheap DIY rubbish' makes you look like either a liar, or someone that has no idea what they're talking about.
Like I said, typical tradesman... not just an obsession with money, but a nasty streak too.
So you can call me a lazy British ar5eh0le and you feel justified in doing so, you claim that ALL I am interested in is money (obviously because you know me :rolleyes:) and you feel justified but when I tell you how it is I have a nasty streak???
So you can call me a lazy British ar5eh0le and you feel justified in doing so, you claim that ALL I am interested in is money (obviously because you know me :rolleyes:) and you feel justified but when I tell you how it is I have a nasty streak???
I could say more but you really are not worth it.
No, I did not call you anything.
My experience of hiring British tradesmen is that, unfortunately, most have been lazy, greedy arseholes.
It is unsurprising that you and others like you advise the forum to avoid non-british tradespeople. In my experience, it is the British ones who are best avoided... and it seems you are a perfect example of why that would be.
It's notable that I'm not the only one with that opinion, and the only people disagreeing with me are British tradesmen.
My experience of hiring British tradesmen is that, unfortunately, most have been lazy, greedy arseholes.
It is unsurprising that you and others like you advise the forum to avoid non-british tradespeople. In my experience, it is the British ones who are best avoided.
It's notable that I'm not the only one with that opinion, and the only people disagreeing with me are British tradesmen.
Yes we're so bad at ripping people off that we very often give free advice and our time on these forums in order to help people save money or get things done correctly.
You're either a troll or just a WUM, either way your posts are full of meaningless negative rants that offer nothing to anyone.
My experience of hiring British tradesmen is that, unfortunately, most have been lazy, greedy arseholes.
It is unsurprising that you and others like you advise the forum to avoid non-british tradespeople. In my experience, it is the British ones who are best avoided.
It's notable that I'm not the only one with that opinion, and the only people disagreeing with me are British tradesmen.
I will correct you, have made no reference to foreign tradesmen being less able (In fact I dont think I made any reference to foreign tradesmen at all) I have worked with many, some good some not so good .... probably in the same percentages as British ones.
Maybe the British ones responding on here are the ones who have taken a bit of your hostility towards them on board and feel a little agreaved? It might even be that it is a UK forum and the majority on here might just be British? (Partly because the Polish ones either dont read English internet forums or are out working to send the money back to their families at home??
I will correct you, have made no reference to foreign tradesmen being less able (In fact I dont think I made any reference to foreign tradesmen at all) I have worked with many, some good some not so good .... probably in the same percentages as British ones.
Maybe the British ones responding on here are the ones who have taken a bit of your hostility towards them on board and feel a little agreaved? It might even be that it is a UK forum and the majority on here might just be British? (Partly because the Polish ones either dont read English internet forums or are out working to send the money back to their families at home??
Fair point, and thank you for a bit of sense re: foreign and british tradesmen being both good and bad. I think if you review the thread you will find plenty of references to foreign workers doing poor quality work... until now, none from 'the trade' giving a balanced opinion.
I'm sorry if you feel aggrieved, it is entirely possible you run a straight business with high standards across the board, or maybe you don't, I wouldn't know. Personally, I have had very poor experiences dealing with British tradesmen. It is a sad fact that quotes are usually not based on a formula but on what the person quoting thinks they can 'get away with'.
Couple this with wildly varying standards, attitude problems, racism, bills that magically increase by the time they are submitted and often a simple failure to finish the job without chasing and you get a picture of how the 'trade' is perceived.
This is not isolated, it is the norm. To date I genuinely have found migrant workers to simply be a better choice. Maybe it's a London thing, maybe not.
I had a window replaced a couple of weeks ago (smashed by kids), I call out a reputable company who charge me through the nose for a weekend call-out. When they send someone to fit the actual glass (it was boarded first), the guy fits the window ok, but 'forgets' the paint job and 'forgets' to clean up. He's called back, paints then 'forgets' to clean up. He's called back again to clean up and uses our vacuum to clean away the shattered glass.. and breaks it.
Time and time again, these are the kind of experiences I get from using 'professional' services, who are happy to charge a small fortune for a very straightforward job... and can't even get that right.
Yes we're so bad at ripping people off that we very often give free advice and our time on these forums in order to help people save money or get things done correctly.
You're either a troll or just a WUM, either way your posts are full of meaningless negative rants that offer nothing to anyone.
Rubbish.
I've posted plenty of very helpful advice to anyone looking to hire a tradesman, as well as call out some of the more questionable stuff posted by your fellow tradesmen about hiring migrants.
In short, never trust a tradesman to do a good job and charge a fair price off his own back, regardless of which country he is from... That way you can only be pleasantly surprised.
Au contrair! As my 9 O levels, 3 A levels and degree in E&EE will attest, not all "tradesmen" were the "thickies" as school and thus good for nothing else as you insinuate!
You know nothing about me, yet feel it appopriate to insult me and my working practices - well get stuffed pal!
FWIW Prior to setting up my own business and "taking up tools" again 4 years ago (following an illness), I was Sales Director for a multi-national (but proudly British!) defence electronics company having spent over 25 years in the defence elecronics arena. Now in the "twilight" of my working life I do it for my own benefit, not some else's. (and of course, to "rip people off" so I can have some nice holidays...:rolleyes:)
Perhaps you could insult and stereotype "tradesmen" a little more? Myself, I think you're a gobshite - but hey, that's just me stereotyping??
You were a sales Director hmm with a Degree, 9 Olevels and an A level. Most of my sales Directors don't have any Qualifications, and use their mouth and polite demeanour as their tools. They still have their jobs.
Did you do an NVQ 3 in Electrical Installation as E&EE is not the usual qualification for house bashing. Did you recently do a Conversion course of some kind.
In all honesty your bad attitude, your poor way of communicating, your posts littered with insults and bad language is not conducive to someone with a higher education, or that of an honest tradesman. More of one that has been caught out as a bluffer and a gross overcharger of materials and time.
I am surprised you didn't stay in sales management it's a by far easier job, if you were any good. I would steer clear of a newly qualified chancer like you.
As for customers supplying their own kit then tough - if you supply it (and I do agree to fit it - which is highly unlikley) and anything goes wrong with it, then you're on your own - you bought the shit so it's your problem....If I supply it then I warrant it, but then I only use decent quality gear - unlike that piece of crap CU you put in your link (and at "clearance" price anyway so hardly a true representation)
Everything has to pass British Standard, don't start sluring reputable manufacturers. What lab testing do you do to ensure CE approval ?
That's just more scaremongering, as if you are an authority on quality compliance lol
Sorry Marcus as you feel every British Tradesman is an ar*e hole, it's worth pointing out the word I think you mean to say is " Protectionism ".
I have no problem with Polish workers, pretty good but they don't like rules and can be reckless with them.
Seacam, Gas engineers are plumbers, who can read an installation manual of how to put a boiler up. That's all. Those British plumbers that used to do the job, used to kill people because they allowed gas to escape and carbon monoxide to enter rooms.
The difference between a soldered waterpipe joint and a soldered gas pipe joint is none. The water pipe leaks water if it's a bad joint. The gas pipe joint is tested for pressure loss, and even then they are allowed to leek a bit :eek:
Again please don't make out these basic skills are mystical trades and are anything clever.
I have found whereas a European electrician will chase out a wall neatly and hide the cables, and then plaster it back up perfectly, a UK Sparky will reach for surface trunking and pull off the double sided tape and stick that up. Shoddy short cut (but quick) to say the least.
However it might surprise you and Orange that I would de-regulate or get rid of Part P solely on the basis that it is indeed being used as an instrument to rip the public off, to confuse, to bamboozle them. We do need a part P variant but that should be the publics choice, not a requirement.
Part P allows Plumbers to connect up the power on a boiler. It was brought in to bring some sence into protectionist electricians. Funny how a plumber can do electrics but a spark can't do plumbing ...only shows how easy electrics are.
Thanks for the replies everyone, they are now having a kitchen fitted and the work will be included in the fitting.
That's a coincidence I have just had a kitchen fitted. 14 cabinets for £80. I telephoned loads of kitchen fitters off gumtree and was quoted between £400 and £600. I had a joiner (old time British Joiner) who said he would do a days work (on a Sunday when premises are closed) for £80 and he would assemble and fit the lot. I lent him a hand while assembling the Ikea units.
Me too, they've never heard of IET or 17th edition regs. some of these "electricians". I've seen some absolute horror jobs (and downright bloody dangerous). Lack of testing and certfication is a major bugbear with these guys.
oh the 17th Edition, hmm you mean the dumbed down one that brought us in the UK up to EUROPEAN standards.
Jeez get over yourselves guys keep your horror stories for the kids at bedtime.
Can I add to that BUY YOUR OWN boiler, consumer unit, kitchen, and just pay for time by the hour / day. £80 a day is good money for a tradesman. Ask how long it will take, and hold them to it......don't let them quote you for the job, these days that's when the zero's get added.
You were a sales Director hmm with a Degree, 9 Olevels and an A level. Most of my sales Directors don't have any Qualifications, and use their mouth and polite demeanour as their tools. They still have their jobs.
Oesophageal Cancer put paid to me travelling the world doing a job I loved! (and has been documented here on DS, so believe it or not - I don't give a toss). So I went back to what I knew. Now I neither suffer fools like you gladly, nor intend to - life is too short. Perhaps you'd prefer I posted the link to my LinkedIn profile and Company website - but then again, that probably wouldn't be enough for you....
Did you do an NVQ 3 in Electrical Installation as E&EE is not the usual qualification for house bashing. Did you recently do a Conversion course of some kind.
No, I finished my C&G233 (back when they were still 3 digits!) in 1985 BEFORE I got into Electronics/sales (and long before NVQs). I finished my E&EE degree in 1988 and went to work. I'm a time served apprentice who's worked under 15th Edition, 16th Edition and more recently {2007} did my C&G2382 17th Edition IET Regs and C&G2391 Testing and Inspection - how about you Mr Know-it-all? I suppose you can pee higher up the wall than me too...
In all honesty your bad attitude, your poor way of communicating, your posts littered with insults and bad language is not conducive to someone with a higher education, or that of an honest tradesman. More of one that has been caught out as a bluffer and a gross overcharger of materials and time.
I am surprised you didn't stay in sales management it's a by far easier job, if you were any good. I would steer clear of a newly qualified chancer like you.
As you will have now read, I'm neither newly qualified or a chancer, but the owner of a successfull business (just like seacam is). I avoid customers like you - thank God! Keep going with the personal insults, you're looking far more foolish than me....
....Here is a Protek consumer unit for £29.25 HERE
They are recommended by Housing associations apparently.
Still, in my opinion, cheap tat that I would never, ever fit. If I wouldn't feel happy fitting it in my mothers house then I won't use it. My customers get a good job, at a decent price, with full certification and an insurance backed guarentee through my Part P scheme provider. If they should have a problem they know how to contact me.
That's a coincidence I have just had a kitchen fitted. 14 cabinets for £80.....
....Can I add to that BUY YOUR OWN boiler, consumer unit, kitchen, and just pay for time by the hour / day. £80 a day is good money for a tradesman.
No, it isn't, it's good money for a crap job. I don't know any decent tradesman who will do a days' work for £80 - we'd be making a loss on our daily costs if we did - but I do know some cowboys who will, and who vanish just as quickly when there's a problem.
No, I finished my C&G233 (back when they were still 3 digits!) in 1985 BEFORE I got into Electronics/sales (and long before NVQs). I finished my E&EE degree in 1988 and went to work. I'm a time served apprentice who's worked under 15th Edition, 16th Edition and more recently {2007} did my C&G2382 17th Edition IET Regs and C&G2391 Testing and Inspection - how about you Mr Know-it-all?
Oesophageal Cancer put paid to me travelling the world doing a job I loved! (and has been documented here on DS, so believe it or not - I don't give a toss)... I finished my C&G233 (back when they were still 3 digits!) in 1985 BEFORE I got into Electronics/sales (and long before NVQs). I finished my E&EE degree in 1988 and went to work. I'm a time served apprentice who's worked under 15th Edition, 16th Edition and more recently {2007} did my C&G2382 17th Edition IET Regs and C&G2391 Testing and Inspection
I'm sorry you got cancer, but that doesn't excuse you overcharging and having a bad attitude does it.
15th and 16th regs don't qualify you today as it was so long ago (well over 2 decades ago) and you will have forgotten all you learned unless you are working in the industry ( which you weren't) I see you did a 12 week (C&G2382) home study course and C&G2391 to bring you up to date. So I was right you are newly qualified.
... I don't know any decent tradesman who will do a days' work for £80 - we'd be making a loss on our daily costs if we did - but I do know some cowboys who will, and who vanish just as quickly when there's a problem.
I would suggest it is you that is a cowboy.
Rounding on innocent householders, bluffing them, taking advantage and overcharging for simple jobs.
In the real world.
£80 a day for a joiner, plumber, plasterer, tiler etc
80 - £100 a day for an electrician
£50 for a jobber labourer.
That is good money and the going rate.
Sad to say. Your rip off rates, bluffery, greed, scaremongering and poor attitude are the hallmarks of the worst type of conman.
Sad to say. Your rip off rates, bluffery, greed, scaremongering and poor attitude are the hallmarks of the worst type of conman.
Suffice to say, your arrogance that you know better than a time served, qualified, and certified tradesman and want a decent job done for next to nothing are the hallmarks of the worst kind of customer - the kind I don't deal with.
I run my business how I run my business, it's succesful and we have many repeat customers, who are happy in the knowledge that they have a a job correctly done, to the current standards, and certified as such. I quote an honest price and they obviously feel they aren't being ripped off or they wouldn't be using us (and returning) would they? QED.
Seems that people who run businesses, with happy repeat customers, who don't feel ripped off are now "the worst type of conman" for daring to want to make a living wage.:rolleyes:
Comments
As a business unless work/repairs/installations are account based, then the only three ways to pay for work was cash/cheque/debit/credit card, we no longer accept cheques for repairs/maintenance unless arranged in advance so our/clients options are cash or card payments.
Some times a client give us no choice, gives us cash, I hate carrying cash on the vans, so do my staff, preferring debit/credit card transactions, so much safer.
Year and years ago before VAT and just after it's introduction the expression/question was " is this going through the books?", in other words pay us cash, no invoice and we can make the job /work a bit cheaper as the money won't be going through our accounts/books,---- famous UK black economy and to a degree it still exists today.
It's when VAT went up to 15% that cash was king and VAT registered companies like ours really lost out on the private work.
Private clients/customers simply did not want to pay an extra 15/% on top of the bill, they couldn't claim it back, business customers could, they could claim the VAT back in a round about way.
So as a company we focused on business, council and HA contracts.
Ever seen/been sold a carpet out of the back of a Van, hold that memory, I'll explain where I'm going with that later on.
Moving on to recent times,, 17.5% or 20% on top of a bill/invoice is a lot of extra money for private clients.
Cowboys/rip off merchants and to be fair the relatively honest Joe tradesman will undertake work, cash in hand, no record of money changing hands, no tax/VAT paid, client is happy, maybe saved a packet in VAT, trades person is happy, cash in pocket.
The near honest Joe will, regardless of giving no/invoice or receipt always want the client to be happy.
But there is this stupid thinking among cowboys trades people and honest others, that no receipts/invoice, no come back from the customer if things go wrong.
And the customer who is paying cash in hand, thinks it to, paying cheap but taking a chance but it is bollocks thinking from all parties.
If a customer can prove, when things go wrong, a cash in hand/forget the VAT contractor, undertook work, that customer has legal redress under certain conditions.
But proof is needed, a receipt/invoice makes that a whole lot easier.
However there have been some case law if I recall where there has been no hope of retrieving VAT lost on cash jobs and HMRC has looked to the original customer, not the trades person to retrieve that loss where it can show collusion between all parties.
So dear readers, any that are, you can pay a hard working, pleasant, Eastern European probably not permitted to do the work but will do a job, well or poor, yer pays yer money, you take your chance and to be fair, in the buliding trades, some are very good at what they do.
Or you find and pay someone like Camer, LCD, Chimp, who may not be VAT registered because they don't have to be but you get a shed load of qualifications/study and experience and a job professionaly done where a legal requirement exists to have work undertaken by such a qualified person .
Or I/my company who will give you the same or better service then the above,( well I had to say that didn't I
Oh! woe is me, woe, double woe, thrice woe, being thought as either a pot or a kettle,
or arrogant.
Third generation, following in the footsteps of my grandfather and uncle.
Haven't worked as one for a long time now, so don't ask me for advice:p
For work, I still move in construction/building circles from time to time and have heard some horror stories about electricians from Romania, none about Polish workers.
One thing I have noticed, mainly in housebuilding, whereby one lot of chaps will come in and first fix and someone else will come and second fix and test.
I've also spoken to electricians on big office constructions, and they are great tradesmen and do a superb job, but never work on 'live' stuff that is the domain of others in the company.
It seems that there is a bit of a two tier system.
Marcus, I dont work in a factory on an hourly rate. I travel to the customers' property with an array of alternative equipment in my van (all top notch professional equipment, not B&Q domestic crap), i assess the requirements and discuss with the customer then get on with it. Giving whatever guarantees and certificates are required (by law) on completion. For this service I expect paying and paying the rate that I have discussed prior to commencement.
I have a massive customer base (having been in business for over 23 years), we carry out contract repairs on behalf of management agents and we do many "celebrities" one of which have actually said to me personally "I wouldnt want someone who charges less than £50 perr hour in my house".
I see estate agents driving round in Porsches, and they just take a photo of my house and advertise it (sorry any Estate Agents reading) I see footballers (foreign ones too) driving ferrarris for kicking a ball, I even see some local council offering its council tax payers money to its staff as exhorbitant redundency offers, so why should I be expected to scrimp and scrape just so Mr & Mrs Public (who in general couldnt care less about the person working on their property and quite often make themselves a cup of tea without offering the worker one) can get a cheap deal??
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
You see Seacam, for all your helpful informative posts, you insist on perpetuating the myth that with a British electrician, you are getting someone with:
In my experience, aside from the attitude problems and the over-charging, there are plenty of British 'electricians' who are neither qualified or permitted (to use your terms).
It should also be noted that there are plenty of non-British electricians who are both qualified and permitted.
In general, don't trust any tradesperson to tell you the truth about their own work or anyone else's, always check they are registered with the organisations they say they are.
If the paperwork isn't up to scratch, for any reason, don't hire them.
If they try to charge more than the agreed price for works, don't pay them (this happens a lot).
When they don't clean up after themselves, and they won't, let them know that they won't be paid until they do.
If you are not happy with the work do not pay them.
Many tradespeople are gobby arseholes with attitude problems, ask yourself: 'Would I want to work with this person?' If the answer is 'no'. Do not hire them.
Money, money, porsches, money, money, celebrities, money, money... look at my wad.
Typical tradesman.
You remind me of the guy who took affront to me pointing out he'd made a mess of my drainpipes by saying 'I've done jobs on million pound 'ouses'. Like I care, just clean the drainpipes you moron.
It may all be about money to you, but I would like a good job done thanks... whoever said 'I wouldn't have anyone in for less than £50' an hour is an idiot. Money does not guarantee a professional service.
I wouldn't hire you, because I can tell you think that the money = professionalism. Phrases like 'cheap B&Q rubbish' give you away... again, more myths, 'if it's from B&Q it's cheap rubbish', better hire a 'professional' eh?
I have purposely refrained from taking a personal pop at you despite you obviously being an arrogant gobshite so as you dont know me I would appreciate the same in return
incidenntally, you wouldn't hire me because as soon as you asked me to install your DIY sh1t I would walk away
Was not aimed at you Seacam.
You will always get the odd customer that 'knows better' than yourself when you try to explain the ins and outs of a job.
After 26 years in the appliance repair trade I know better than to waste my valuable time on them. If they think they can do better (or know a 'mate' who does) then let them get on with it.
There are numerous deaths each year due to people who 'know better' having read how to do something off the net.
There's a lot of talk on this thread about how to do things, or how things should be done. But there's not been mention of all those things that you 'don't do'. Those things that we have picked up, and learnt over time that are the things that could cause some serious damage to someone or something.
Why?
Because you can't, you cannot quantify that experience, you cannot put it into writing on a NB. It's just something you learn along the way that saves you time, trouble, and maybe pain.
People will pay what they're willing to pay, it's as simple as that. If they don't want to pay the 'going rate' they will turn to cheapier (often shoddier) means. It's their choice, but quite often it ends up costing them more as they then have to pay someone like me to come and put things right.
You get what you pay for, simple!
Gobshite eh?
Like I said, typical tradesman... not just an obsession with money, but a nasty streak too.
Let me explain something to you. I have never supplied anything from a DIY store to a tradesperson I have employed... however it is a fact that B&Q, Wickes et al supply many of the same products that your company uses everyday, the quality is no better or worse.. in some cases it will be the exact the same, just with different branding.
Your insistence that buying a product from B&Q automatically makes it 'cheap DIY rubbish' makes you look like either a liar, or someone that has no idea what they're talking about.
So you can call me a lazy British ar5eh0le and you feel justified in doing so, you claim that ALL I am interested in is money (obviously because you know me :rolleyes:) and you feel justified but when I tell you how it is I have a nasty streak???
I could say more but you really are not worth it.
No, I did not call you anything.
My experience of hiring British tradesmen is that, unfortunately, most have been lazy, greedy arseholes.
It is unsurprising that you and others like you advise the forum to avoid non-british tradespeople. In my experience, it is the British ones who are best avoided... and it seems you are a perfect example of why that would be.
It's notable that I'm not the only one with that opinion, and the only people disagreeing with me are British tradesmen.
Yes we're so bad at ripping people off that we very often give free advice and our time on these forums in order to help people save money or get things done correctly.
You're either a troll or just a WUM, either way your posts are full of meaningless negative rants that offer nothing to anyone.
I will correct you, have made no reference to foreign tradesmen being less able (In fact I dont think I made any reference to foreign tradesmen at all) I have worked with many, some good some not so good .... probably in the same percentages as British ones.
Maybe the British ones responding on here are the ones who have taken a bit of your hostility towards them on board and feel a little agreaved? It might even be that it is a UK forum and the majority on here might just be British? (Partly because the Polish ones either dont read English internet forums or are out working to send the money back to their families at home??
Fair point, and thank you for a bit of sense re: foreign and british tradesmen being both good and bad. I think if you review the thread you will find plenty of references to foreign workers doing poor quality work... until now, none from 'the trade' giving a balanced opinion.
I'm sorry if you feel aggrieved, it is entirely possible you run a straight business with high standards across the board, or maybe you don't, I wouldn't know. Personally, I have had very poor experiences dealing with British tradesmen. It is a sad fact that quotes are usually not based on a formula but on what the person quoting thinks they can 'get away with'.
Couple this with wildly varying standards, attitude problems, racism, bills that magically increase by the time they are submitted and often a simple failure to finish the job without chasing and you get a picture of how the 'trade' is perceived.
This is not isolated, it is the norm. To date I genuinely have found migrant workers to simply be a better choice. Maybe it's a London thing, maybe not.
I had a window replaced a couple of weeks ago (smashed by kids), I call out a reputable company who charge me through the nose for a weekend call-out. When they send someone to fit the actual glass (it was boarded first), the guy fits the window ok, but 'forgets' the paint job and 'forgets' to clean up. He's called back, paints then 'forgets' to clean up. He's called back again to clean up and uses our vacuum to clean away the shattered glass.. and breaks it.
Time and time again, these are the kind of experiences I get from using 'professional' services, who are happy to charge a small fortune for a very straightforward job... and can't even get that right.
Rubbish.
I've posted plenty of very helpful advice to anyone looking to hire a tradesman, as well as call out some of the more questionable stuff posted by your fellow tradesmen about hiring migrants.
In short, never trust a tradesman to do a good job and charge a fair price off his own back, regardless of which country he is from... That way you can only be pleasantly surprised.
That, is very good advice.
You were a sales Director hmm with a Degree, 9 Olevels and an A level. Most of my sales Directors don't have any Qualifications, and use their mouth and polite demeanour as their tools. They still have their jobs.
Did you do an NVQ 3 in Electrical Installation as E&EE is not the usual qualification for house bashing. Did you recently do a Conversion course of some kind.
In all honesty your bad attitude, your poor way of communicating, your posts littered with insults and bad language is not conducive to someone with a higher education, or that of an honest tradesman. More of one that has been caught out as a bluffer and a gross overcharger of materials and time.
I am surprised you didn't stay in sales management it's a by far easier job, if you were any good. I would steer clear of a newly qualified chancer like you.
Everything has to pass British Standard, don't start sluring reputable manufacturers. What lab testing do you do to ensure CE approval ?
That's just more scaremongering, as if you are an authority on quality compliance lol
Here is a Protek consumer unit for £29.25 HERE
They are recommended by Housing associations apparently.:D
Seacam, Gas engineers are plumbers, who can read an installation manual of how to put a boiler up. That's all. Those British plumbers that used to do the job, used to kill people because they allowed gas to escape and carbon monoxide to enter rooms.
The difference between a soldered waterpipe joint and a soldered gas pipe joint is none. The water pipe leaks water if it's a bad joint. The gas pipe joint is tested for pressure loss, and even then they are allowed to leek a bit :eek:
Again please don't make out these basic skills are mystical trades and are anything clever.
I have found whereas a European electrician will chase out a wall neatly and hide the cables, and then plaster it back up perfectly, a UK Sparky will reach for surface trunking and pull off the double sided tape and stick that up. Shoddy short cut (but quick) to say the least.
Part P allows Plumbers to connect up the power on a boiler. It was brought in to bring some sence into protectionist electricians. Funny how a plumber can do electrics but a spark can't do plumbing
That's a coincidence I have just had a kitchen fitted. 14 cabinets for £80. I telephoned loads of kitchen fitters off gumtree and was quoted between £400 and £600. I had a joiner (old time British Joiner) who said he would do a days work (on a Sunday when premises are closed) for £80 and he would assemble and fit the lot. I lent him a hand while assembling the Ikea units.
oh the 17th Edition, hmm you mean the dumbed down one that brought us in the UK up to EUROPEAN standards.
Jeez get over yourselves guys keep your horror stories for the kids at bedtime.
Can I add to that BUY YOUR OWN boiler, consumer unit, kitchen, and just pay for time by the hour / day. £80 a day is good money for a tradesman. Ask how long it will take, and hold them to it......don't let them quote you for the job, these days that's when the zero's get added.
.
Oesophageal Cancer put paid to me travelling the world doing a job I loved! (and has been documented here on DS, so believe it or not - I don't give a toss). So I went back to what I knew. Now I neither suffer fools like you gladly, nor intend to - life is too short. Perhaps you'd prefer I posted the link to my LinkedIn profile and Company website - but then again, that probably wouldn't be enough for you....
No, I finished my C&G233 (back when they were still 3 digits!) in 1985 BEFORE I got into Electronics/sales (and long before NVQs). I finished my E&EE degree in 1988 and went to work. I'm a time served apprentice who's worked under 15th Edition, 16th Edition and more recently {2007} did my C&G2382 17th Edition IET Regs and C&G2391 Testing and Inspection - how about you Mr Know-it-all? I suppose you can pee higher up the wall than me too...
As you will have now read, I'm neither newly qualified or a chancer, but the owner of a successfull business (just like seacam is). I avoid customers like you - thank God! Keep going with the personal insults, you're looking far more foolish than me....
Still, in my opinion, cheap tat that I would never, ever fit. If I wouldn't feel happy fitting it in my mothers house then I won't use it. My customers get a good job, at a decent price, with full certification and an insurance backed guarentee through my Part P scheme provider. If they should have a problem they know how to contact me.
No, it isn't, it's good money for a crap job. I don't know any decent tradesman who will do a days' work for £80 - we'd be making a loss on our daily costs if we did - but I do know some cowboys who will, and who vanish just as quickly when there's a problem.
Cheers Keefy, we do our best to keep you entertained mate.
How's yerself anyway?
Not too bad thanks LCD!
Game, set and match to Mr LCDMAN ...
I'm sorry you got cancer, but that doesn't excuse you overcharging and having a bad attitude does it.
15th and 16th regs don't qualify you today as it was so long ago (well over 2 decades ago) and you will have forgotten all you learned unless you are working in the industry ( which you weren't) I see you did a 12 week (C&G2382) home study course and C&G2391 to bring you up to date. So I was right you are newly qualified.
I would suggest it is you that is a cowboy.
Rounding on innocent householders, bluffing them, taking advantage and overcharging for simple jobs.
In the real world.
£80 a day for a joiner, plumber, plasterer, tiler etc
80 - £100 a day for an electrician
£50 for a jobber labourer.
That is good money and the going rate.
Sad to say. Your rip off rates, bluffery, greed, scaremongering and poor attitude are the hallmarks of the worst type of conman.
Suffice to say, your arrogance that you know better than a time served, qualified, and certified tradesman and want a decent job done for next to nothing are the hallmarks of the worst kind of customer - the kind I don't deal with.
I run my business how I run my business, it's succesful and we have many repeat customers, who are happy in the knowledge that they have a a job correctly done, to the current standards, and certified as such. I quote an honest price and they obviously feel they aren't being ripped off or they wouldn't be using us (and returning) would they? QED.
Apparently not....
Seems that people who run businesses, with happy repeat customers, who don't feel ripped off are now "the worst type of conman" for daring to want to make a living wage.:rolleyes: