Where has it all gone wrong then in Europe

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  • Tannhauser GateTannhauser Gate Posts: 17,739
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    This first half of El Classico is a pointer to where it's all gone wrong. Some of the passing and ball control is sublime. And I don't think either of these will even win the CL....
  • dazcdazc Posts: 4,063
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    it has gone wrong by not taking the other leagues serious like in Germany mongblach were brilliant today against Bayer if an English club got them they would expect to be a walkover
  • Tannhauser GateTannhauser Gate Posts: 17,739
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    This first half of El Classico is a pointer to where it's all gone wrong. Some of the passing and ball control is sublime. And I don't think either of these will even win the CL....

    But the second half was a big letdown despite Saurez's superb goal. They should have called it "El Splashio" with all the diving that was going on.....
  • Jim_McIntoshJim_McIntosh Posts: 5,866
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    dazc wrote: »
    it has gone wrong by not taking the other leagues serious like in Germany mongblach were brilliant today against Bayer if an English club got them they would expect to be a walkover

    Therein lies the problem. It's expectation.

    Man City aren't as good as Barcelona. Their chances of winning that tie are slim.

    Neither Arsenal nor Monaco are great sides. Either could have went through. Last 16 is probably about the level of both of them right now.

    Chelsea are the best of the English sides right now but I don't think they are much better (if at all) than PSG who I think would be challengers in the PL, or at least in that equation. I don't think there is much between them really.

    Liverpool had bad early season form and suffered for it. Teams have seasons like that sometimes.

    Some people see it as Barcelona, Real, Bayern and the English sides alongside them. Certainly the media love to ramp up expectation in that way in the same way they'll call someone banging in goals in the PL the greatest form striker on the planet. They have obvious bias and encourage it as it raises debate. I see it more as those 3 then the English sides amongst the challenging pack who might win the odd CL but aren't quite at the same level.

    Some years you might get 4 English sides in the quarters and some years you might have none but basically Barca, Real and Bayern have been the top European sides in recent years and the results might vary year on year due to the element of luck in knockout competitions but those 3 will have the best chance of winning.
  • ArmchairDieHardArmchairDieHard Posts: 282
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    Therein lies the problem. It's expectation.

    Man City aren't as good as Barcelona. Their chances of winning that tie are slim.

    Neither Arsenal nor Monaco are great sides. Either could have went through. Last 16 is probably about the level of both of them right now.

    Chelsea are the best of the English sides right now but I don't think they are much better (if at all) than PSG who I think would be challengers in the PL, or at least in that equation. I don't think there is much between them really.

    Liverpool had bad early season form and suffered for it. Teams have seasons like that sometimes.

    Some people see it as Barcelona, Real, Bayern and the English sides alongside them. Certainly the media love to ramp up expectation in that way in the same way they'll call someone banging in goals in the PL the greatest form striker on the planet. They have obvious bias. I see it more as those 3 then the English sides amongst the challenging pack who might win the odd CL but aren't quite at the same level.

    You've got a point, but I think Mourinho was more concerned with winning the title than the Champions League this season. I think he'll identify a couple of players that he needs over the Summer and make a real push for success in Europe next season.

    Arsenal are a level above Monaco, but let themselves down badly in the first leg.

    City lost the tie at the Etihad with their naive tactics.
  • kingjeremykingjeremy Posts: 9,077
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    None of the big teams are as good as they were a few years ago, simple as that. From around 2005-2009 we had great teams with great players, look at the teams we had competing then, not a single one of United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea have a team now that is as good.

    It was just an incredibly strong group of teams, you'll never be able to maintain that sort of strength long term, the Italians couldn't, we couldn't and the Spanish wont either.

    When the scouse demolished Madrid 5-0 look who they had lining up in midfield, prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascerano, now what, old Gerrard, Allen and Henderson and you can apply that sort of quality drop pretty much across the board.

    Manchester United had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Vidic, Rio etc.
  • carefree_bluecarefree_blue Posts: 8,961
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    Well it would just be the race for 3rd instead. Plus it would mean financial catastrophe each year for at least one club.
    It would be the race for third but it would be a bigger ask, which is the point. Not really bothered about it causing financial catastrophe. I'm sure the multi-billion pound TV deal will help with that particular blow.
    Glad that you're not bothered about English clubs getting into financial trouble.

    walterwhite, your concern for teams getting into financial trouble appears to be at odds with what you said in the PL relegation thread:
    I'm looking forward to QPR's financial implosion when they go down and also to see who the dream manager is.
  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    kingjeremy wrote: »
    None of the big teams are as good as they were a few years ago, simple as that. From around 2005-2009 we had great teams with great players, look at the teams we had competing then, not a single one of United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea have a team now that is as good.

    It was just an incredibly strong group of teams, you'll never be able to maintain that sort of strength long term, the Italians couldn't, we couldn't and the Spanish wont either.

    When the scouse demolished Madrid 5-0 look who they had lining up in midfield, prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascerano, now what, old Gerrard, Allen and Henderson and you can apply that sort of quality drop pretty much across the board.

    Manchester United had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Vidic, Rio etc.

    As Carragher mentioned the other day it was more the intensity that the English sides played at rather than individual ability which saw English sides do so well. The European sides now can match that intensity of have surpassed it.
  • walterwhitewalterwhite Posts: 56,564
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    walterwhite, your concern for teams getting into financial trouble appears to be at odds with what you said in the PL relegation thread:

    QPR are taking the p*ss though.
  • david16david16 Posts: 14,821
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    mattlamb wrote: »
    What a shame.....

    The Champions League should be for champions anyway. Not for the fourth best domestic side in the league the previous season, the third best or even the second best.

    The old style european cup 2 leg knockout champions only competition is never going to come back.

    Those early round matches in September usually saw the champions of Malta, the champions of Cyprus and the champions of Luxembourg etc battered by near or in excess of a double figures aggregate over in ridiculously embarassing mismatches.
  • Will_JohnsonWill_Johnson Posts: 857
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    walterwhite, your concern for teams getting into financial trouble appears to be at odds with what you said in the PL relegation thread:

    Quality!
  • DUNDEEBOYDUNDEEBOY Posts: 109,640
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    On talksport this last week they dissmissed this season as a one off and Danny Murphy would not be surprised if 3 English sides were in the quarters next season which i just cannot see.

    also think man united might struggle if they return to the cl next seasw
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    a "one-off" that also happened 2 years ago.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    But basically Barca, Real and Bayern have been the top European sides in recent years and the results might vary year on year due to the element of luck in knockout competitions but those 3 will have the best chance of winning.

    Until the last two years, Bayern and Madrid hadn't won the Champions League for 12 years. In fact, Real went through a spell of not getting past the last 16 for a few years, not so long ago.

    If Barcelona don't win it this year, they'll have gone 4 years without winning it.

    Chelsea won it 3 years ago.

    These things are vaguely cyclical, and luck/chance plays a huge part.

    I agree that there's been a small regression in the quality of the top sides, but Aguero, Silva, Toure, Hazard, Ozil and Sanchez are all 'world class', in my opinion.

    The inferiority complex is overplayed, in my opinion.
  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    The EPL has fantastic players but is the football played condusive to success in Europe?

    It's fast end to end, exciting but you give the ball away and vs the majority of sides it isn't an issue as you will get it back pretty quickly anyway.
    On talksport this last week they dissmissed this season as a one off and Danny Murphy would not be surprised if 3 English sides were in the quarters next season which i just cannot see.

    Not sure how it can be described as a one off when for a few seasons now we have seen sides struggle.

    To think 3 English sides will reach the last 8 when next year the seeding system has changed and the group stages will now be more difficult is a bold statement.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    misawa97 wrote: »
    The EPL has fantastic players but is the football played condusive to success in Europe?

    It's fast end to end, exciting but you give the ball away and vs the majority of sides it isn't an issue as you will get it back pretty quickly anyway.

    Chelsea very rarely set up to play 'fast, end-to-end football'. Certainly not in big games.

    This season, Liverpool were naive, Arsenal made a stupid miscalculation, Chelsea were a touch complacent, and City looked they they barely gave a shit, as usual.
  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    Chelsea very rarely set up to play 'fast, end-to-end football'. Certainly not in big games.

    This season, Liverpool were naive, Arsenal made a stupid miscalculation, Chelsea were a touch complacent, and City looked they they barely gave a shit, as usual.

    Yes but it still doesn't change the fact that in the EPL getting the ball back vs the vast majority of sides isn't really an issue for the top sides. Teams give away so cheaply.

    I don't think I have seen an English side play with 10 men in Europe like PSG did. An English side down to 10 vs a quality side tends to be a backs to the wall heroic effort rather than a controlled performance where the ball did the work.
  • Tal'shiarTal'shiar Posts: 2,290
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    Glad that you're not bothered about English clubs getting into financial trouble.

    Well, can you really say you hold some sympathy for them if they did? its all about money, the fat wages, the huge transfer fees, the stupid amounts of money being thrown around. So if its all about the money, why not have money as the deciding factor?. I find it loathsome that its all money money money when it suits, but then its for the love of the game" and "such tragedy".

    Live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Play for the money, be prepared to be crippled by it also.
  • DUNDEEBOYDUNDEEBOY Posts: 109,640
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    Hadnt really considered it till now but if City finish fourth ,with their poor record in Europe depending on if they are seeded they could end up with a difficult CL qualifier
  • walterwhitewalterwhite Posts: 56,564
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    DUNDEEBOY wrote: »
    Hadnt really considered it till now but if City finish fourth ,with their poor record in Europe depending on if they are seeded they could end up with a difficult CL qualifier

    Plus possibly another penalty for exceeding FFP. Poor Man City.
  • DUNDEEBOYDUNDEEBOY Posts: 109,640
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    With Italian sides having a good midweek in Europe they have closed a gap on England and Germany about them in the co efficient table.

    Next year will be a real crucial year in Europe for English sides especially with the last really decent season dropping off the count.

    England will start the season with a lead under 6 points over Italy , that excludes the rest of this seasons Italy results still be to added, especially with it looking there could be three Italian sides in this years semis
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