If I as a white man complained to the police that I am being racially attacked do people honestly think police will respond the same way as an Asian or black?? Of coarse not! That makes the police racist!!
If that was true, it didn't stop the police from arresting me on a racially aggravated charge and an assault charge. I'm female and not exactly white, and the complainant is male and white.
Although the charges were later dropped at his request, the police didn't ignore his phone call. They turned up approximately 20 minutes later. This happened in Jesmond, Newcastle, during the 1990s.
For those who're curious, I'd lost my temper after he ignored my repeated request to stop calling me 'Oriental' and 'Ching Chong'. The racially aggravated charge was due to the police, when they were arriving, overhearing me shouting some racist crap at him, even though it was done in retaliation against him for saying similar things to me ('stupid chink' etc).
Not our finest hour. We were drunk and absolutely stupid, but still no excuse on our part. Especially mine. Looking on the bright side, we're still good friends. But yes, the point is, the police can and do treat everyone pretty much the same.
If I as a white man complained to the police that I am being racially attacked do people honestly think police will respond the same way as an Asian or black??
As the report I provided showed that white men were carrying out group abuse (ie the same type of abuse) and as almost no white men have been prosecuted then it is logical to say 'they are getting away with it'. Blueblade raised the matter of white men abusing girls and I challenged it. Not a diversion - a response. If you have a problem with the subject of white men being raised in this debate then take it up with the person who raised it.
Here's the link you provided so show me where it says that
Lol the thread title is "Why are we so afraid of highlighting race, even when it matters?" but some people think that that doesn't count when the race is white people.
LOL as much as you want there Doc but that wasn't the point.
Btw you raised the matter of white men abusing girls.
Nope, I was answering blueblade's comment about white men - that is why my comment starts 'As for...' because I was referring to his comment in post #484 where he said
But I'm comparing in my mind what would have happened if the situation had been in reverse, and it had been white Christian or no religion men, abusing Asian or white girls. I am 100% convinced in my own mind that the full weight of the law would have descended upon them as soon as their offences started to come to light.
The link you quote above was the one I posted first - I then provided a link to the report itself in post #541 in reply to blueblade's request for clarification on the numbers.
Note - the figures can be found in the 'references' section of this link. Page 105 is the relevant section and it should be noted that they describe the particular model as 'group' rather than 'gang' (which is to do with street gangs and a different kind of model).
True, most council jobs have only been advertised in the Guardian. When I worked in Social Housing, one particular job was only advertised in the Asian press.
Don't patronise me blueblade - it is bordering on baiting now, as is your reply.
You are free to alert any response if you feel it breaches the community guidelines. But I think you will find that my replies are within the T & C's.
You know full well I was not talking about Rotherham.
But I am talking about Rotherham, as this is what is referred to in the OP. I thought that's what we were all talking about, including you as you have referred to the Rotherham report and linked to it.
I am aware there was a white guy of English heritage (Graham Blackham) convicted with the Derby gang, whose ringleaders were Pakistani, but I fail to see the relevance of that here. My point still stands - if the Rotherham gang had all been white and of English heritage, the law would have been down on them like a ton of bricks from day 1 of disclosure.
So let's just stop this, shall we - you evidently don't like being challenged so I'll let you chat to the cheap seats.
I can only repeat that I've been challenged thousands of times over the 10 years I've been here - statement of hard fact. If I'd had a problem with that, I'd have left years ago. On the other hand, it is you who is resorting to personal comments and accusations.
You are free to alert any response if you feel it breaches the community guidelines. But I think you will find that my replies are within the T & C's.
But I am talking about Rotherham, as this is what is referred to in the OP. I thought that's what we were all talking about, including you as you have referred to the Rotherham report and linked to it.
I am aware there was a white guy of English heritage (Graham Blackham) convicted with the Derby gang, whose ringleaders were Pakistani, but I fail to see the relevance of that here. My point still stands - if the Rotherham gang had all been white and of English heritage, the law would have been down on them like a ton of bricks from day 1 of disclosure.
I can only repeat that I've been challenged thousands of times over the 10 years I've been here - statement of hard fact. If I'd had a problem with that, I'd have left years ago. On the other hand, it is you who is resorting to personal comments and accusations.
It doesn't matter whether you meant it to refer to Rotherham or not... the point still stands that there may be white group abusers there as well and that they have not been found. You accused me of trying to divert the thread by challenging your comment when it is you who raised the subject of white men, not me. If you don't want to have something you write discussed, then don't write it.
As for personal comments - if you stop being patronising and accusing me of things that I have not done then I will stop picking you up on it.
It doesn't matter whether you meant it to refer to Rotherham or not... the point still stands that there may be white group abusers there as well and that they have not been found
Well hang on, it does matter - indeed, it's 100%.relevant. The entire thread is predicated on Rotherham, and directly concerns Pakistani Muslim sex abuse gangs. No-one other than that community has been mentioned by any victim interviewed in Rotherham, and they should know.
You accused me of trying to divert the thread by challenging your comment when it is you who raised the subject of white men, not me. If you don't want to have something you write discussed, then don't write it.
I gave an off the cuff personal opinion, based on what was happening in Rotherham. You then deflect from that by saying that white men are involved in abuse as well (which we know), then later say that you were not talking about Rotherham, and that I apparently knew that full well - which I didn't at all. Why would I ? The thread is about why we are afraid of highlighting race, and is based on the Rotherham case, which is currently topical, in the news, and highlighted by the OP.
As for personal comments - if you stop being patronising and accusing me of things that I have not done then I will stop picking you up on it.
I believed you were trying to deflect from the main topic, and I still believe that, as apparently do several others. I don't see that as patronising or accusatory, merely stating what I see.
Well hang on, it does matter - indeed, it's 100%.relevant. The entire thread is predicated on Rotherham, and directly concerns Pakistani Muslim sex abuse gangs. No-one other than that community has been mentioned by any victim interviewed in Rotherham, and they should know.
I gave an off the cuff personal opinion, based on what was happening in Rotherham. You then deflect from that by saying that white men are involved in abuse as well (which we know), then later say that you were not talking about Rotherham, and that I apparently knew that full well - which I didn't at all. Why would I ? The thread is about why we are afraid of highlighting race, and is based on the Rotherham case, which is currently topical, in the news, and highlighted by the OP.
I believed you were trying to deflect from the main topic, and I still believe that, as apparently do several others. I don't see that as patronising or accusatory, merely stating what I see.
Actually the thread is derived from events in Rotherham. It's about why we are frightened about mentioning race... and it doesn't even exclude white people in that either. Not that I have talked about white people as perpetrators.. until you raised it.
I answered your 'off the cuff comment' with a single sentence... that was then picked up by others and I answered their questions. You can keep going round and round here but the bottom line is that you made the remark and all I did was respond to it and those who followed up with additional questions. That isn't deflection at all. As I said, if you don't want a response to what you write - don't write it.
I suggest we stop this circular and tedious discussion now.
Actually the thread is derived from events in Rotherham. It's about why we are frightened about mentioning race... and it doesn't even exclude white people in that either.
But the reports arising out of Rotherham concern the authorities being afraid to confront the issue, as they might be accused of racism. With respect, I don't think that has any base relevance to white English heritage people suspected of the same crime.
I answered your 'off the cuff comment' with a single sentence... that was then picked up by others and I answered their questions. You can keep going round and round here but the bottom line is that you made the remark and all I did was respond to it and those who followed up with additional questions. That isn't deflection at all. As I said, if you don't want a response to what you write - don't write it.
I think it's you who is going round and round. I made the comment, and it was you who chose to respond to it, as indeed you seem to do to pretty much all the comments I make that don't agree with your thinking on the issue.
I said that in my opinion if it had been a white English heritage gang of sex abusers identified to the police by the victims, the police would have been down on them like a ton of bricks, and I still firmly believe that. Your response was to say this:-
As for 'if the gangs had been white' - well some of the gangs who prey on girls ARE white... and they get away with it too.
Well I'm sure some paedophile rings do get away with it, simply because of the difficulty in identifying and catching them, not because of any lack of will. They are not the same as the Pakistani street gangs in Rotherham - one member of whom was described by his victim as being cocky and thinking of himself as pretty much invincible. I don't think you are comparing like with like.
I suggest we stop this circular and tedious discussion now.
That's fine - all you have to do is stop responding to my posts.
That is dreadfully patronising of you blueblade - not your normal standard of discussion at all. I may not be as cynical as you but I can recognise a thorough investigation when I see one. They didn't minimise the racism aspects and neither do I - however the attitude of the police and authorities to the victims wasn't because they were white, but because they were deemed unimportant and 'troublemakers. Their attitude to the non-white girls was that they didn't even exist. As for 'if the gangs had been white' - well some of the gangs who prey on girls ARE white... and they get away with it too.
"the most detailed research on the phenomenon so far found that, in 43 per cent of cases, the abusers were white."
That comes from a government report - however the figure may be less (or more) as many of the record didn't include an ethnicity for the perpetrators (68% were 'unknown'). There were 1514 identified (out of 4731) and 43% were white (ie 651) - so even if we assume all the others were not white that means the number of white perpetrators is 13.7% .
It is undoubtedly true that perpetrators of this model of child abuse are much more likely to be non-white, especially but not exclusively, Asian Muslims (just as on-line grooming they are much more likely to be white) and disproportionately so... but white perpetrators do use the model too.
My conclusion in bold was from the Rotherham report. I have agreed on here (many times now) that both the fear of being called racist and a racist element in the actions of the perpetrator were both factors... all I have done is point out that there are other factors and the Rotherham report lists them. I personally think the attitude of the authorities to the girls was a key factor in their lack of action - it appears in every report on this crime and needs addressing just as much as any other factor.
As for the stats - actually it doesn't mean the 57% were Pakistani Muslims at all, as the group is 'non-white' and includes other ethnicities and heritages... African, Middle Eastern and Asian. I agree that the high percentage of abusers in the gang grooming model is not a good thing for that community... and the report (and other reports) make recommendations about that, including having more contact with women's groups who felt their concerns were not being listened to.
Only of white members of mixed gangs I think. The figures I gave were of reported perpetrators so there is evidently a significant problem with catching and prosecuting these men, regardless of their ethnic origin. I do understand that getting evidence and witnesses can be really difficult (there was one story I read where the perpetrator texted a witness while she was at the police station, saying basically 'I know where your family lives', and she dropped her co-operation with the case). One thing I don't understand is why there are so many reports of older men 'hanging about school gates' and park playgrounds and security has seemingly not been put in place there - or surveillance for that matter.
The report , linked countless times in this thread, for anyone who hasn't bothered to read it, includes general child sexual abuse, grooming gangs, convictions and a whole lot more across the board. Now we are told that discussing the broader picture is not allowed, only Pakistani gangs, unless asked by other FM's to provide information they want, of course. Then it is still not allowed and dismissed as irrelevant to the thread with wrongful accusations of constant deflection thrown around. I would suggest looking at FM's posts is an easy way to see the truth of what they've actually said.
Well here you go, as simple as it now has to be. A Pakistani gang were grooming children and women in Rotherham, mainly white. There is a racist attitude that white girls are worthless but they target anyone available, basically. I won't mention the thorny issue of police gross incompetence and dereliction of duty (usually a very good and seemingly endless talking point at any other time, for some) or the council etc.etc.etc.etc.. It seems to have to be all a fear of being labelled racist. Thank goodness, for the sake of all abused children the inquiry team were capable of objective rationality. It's probably not allowed to point out that it's a pity fear of racism can't be blamed for all child protection and care incompetence right across the board in this country. But hey ho. That's too broad an issue for this thread, I suppose. Countless links to the basis and facts of this problem provided already. Most ignored..
Good news. Hopefully it will be looked at in Rochdale, Oxford etc too.
Indeed. I think the government have realised that the screaming hysterical reaction every time race is brought up as a relevant issue, and the apprehension that generates, has got to be tackled, as it has proved to the detriment of child safety in this case.
And about time too! Why does it take such a catastrophic series of events to motivate Governments of either side to act on something which we have all been aware of and right across the board, for years.
Who knows they may even put some funding into mental health care now we have the damaged victims in the public eye.
And about time too! Why does it take such a catastrophic series of events to motivate Governments of either side to act on something which we have all been aware of and right across the board, for years.
Who knows they may even put some funding into mental health care now we have the damaged victims in the public eye.
At last, we righties, D.M readers are being taken notice of, after years of abuse from the lefty Guardianistas.
The abuse of children isn't a left/right issue. It's rather sad if some are trying to portray it that way.
No but in this instance it is being carried out by groups of Pakistanis which everyone has been afraid to point out for fear of being accused of racism by the lefties.
No but in this instance it is being carried out by groups of Pakistanis which everyone has been afraid to point out for fear of being accused of racism by the lefties.
I am not a 'racist' and what really infuriates me is hundreds of these evil bastards are walking around free without a care in the world - all because of the gutless authorities and sickening PC ideological bullshit that was far more important to them than those poor children's lives. >:(
Comments
If that was true, it didn't stop the police from arresting me on a racially aggravated charge and an assault charge. I'm female and not exactly white, and the complainant is male and white.
Although the charges were later dropped at his request, the police didn't ignore his phone call. They turned up approximately 20 minutes later. This happened in Jesmond, Newcastle, during the 1990s.
For those who're curious, I'd lost my temper after he ignored my repeated request to stop calling me 'Oriental' and 'Ching Chong'. The racially aggravated charge was due to the police, when they were arriving, overhearing me shouting some racist crap at him, even though it was done in retaliation against him for saying similar things to me ('stupid chink' etc).
Not our finest hour. We were drunk and absolutely stupid, but still no excuse on our part. Especially mine. Looking on the bright side, we're still good friends. But yes, the point is, the police can and do treat everyone pretty much the same.
Yes, I would hope so. Why wouldn't they?
Here's the link you provided so show me where it says that
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/editorial-the-awful-prevalence-of-grooming-gangs-8615768.html
Btw you raised the matter of white men abusing girls.
LOL as much as you want there Doc but that wasn't the point.
Nope, I was answering blueblade's comment about white men - that is why my comment starts 'As for...' because I was referring to his comment in post #484 where he said
The link you quote above was the one I posted first - I then provided a link to the report itself in post #541 in reply to blueblade's request for clarification on the numbers.
I even gave the page number.
True, most council jobs have only been advertised in the Guardian. When I worked in Social Housing, one particular job was only advertised in the Asian press.
You are free to alert any response if you feel it breaches the community guidelines. But I think you will find that my replies are within the T & C's.
But I am talking about Rotherham, as this is what is referred to in the OP. I thought that's what we were all talking about, including you as you have referred to the Rotherham report and linked to it.
I am aware there was a white guy of English heritage (Graham Blackham) convicted with the Derby gang, whose ringleaders were Pakistani, but I fail to see the relevance of that here. My point still stands - if the Rotherham gang had all been white and of English heritage, the law would have been down on them like a ton of bricks from day 1 of disclosure.
I can only repeat that I've been challenged thousands of times over the 10 years I've been here - statement of hard fact. If I'd had a problem with that, I'd have left years ago. On the other hand, it is you who is resorting to personal comments and accusations.
It doesn't matter whether you meant it to refer to Rotherham or not... the point still stands that there may be white group abusers there as well and that they have not been found. You accused me of trying to divert the thread by challenging your comment when it is you who raised the subject of white men, not me. If you don't want to have something you write discussed, then don't write it.
As for personal comments - if you stop being patronising and accusing me of things that I have not done then I will stop picking you up on it.
Well hang on, it does matter - indeed, it's 100%.relevant. The entire thread is predicated on Rotherham, and directly concerns Pakistani Muslim sex abuse gangs. No-one other than that community has been mentioned by any victim interviewed in Rotherham, and they should know.
I gave an off the cuff personal opinion, based on what was happening in Rotherham. You then deflect from that by saying that white men are involved in abuse as well (which we know), then later say that you were not talking about Rotherham, and that I apparently knew that full well
I believed you were trying to deflect from the main topic, and I still believe that, as apparently do several others. I don't see that as patronising or accusatory, merely stating what I see.
Actually the thread is derived from events in Rotherham. It's about why we are frightened about mentioning race... and it doesn't even exclude white people in that either. Not that I have talked about white people as perpetrators.. until you raised it.
I answered your 'off the cuff comment' with a single sentence... that was then picked up by others and I answered their questions. You can keep going round and round here but the bottom line is that you made the remark and all I did was respond to it and those who followed up with additional questions. That isn't deflection at all. As I said, if you don't want a response to what you write - don't write it.
I suggest we stop this circular and tedious discussion now.
But the reports arising out of Rotherham concern the authorities being afraid to confront the issue, as they might be accused of racism. With respect, I don't think that has any base relevance to white English heritage people suspected of the same crime.
I think it's you who is going round and round. I made the comment, and it was you who chose to respond to it, as indeed you seem to do to pretty much all the comments I make that don't agree with your thinking on the issue.
I said that in my opinion if it had been a white English heritage gang of sex abusers identified to the police by the victims, the police would have been down on them like a ton of bricks, and I still firmly believe that. Your response was to say this:-
Well I'm sure some paedophile rings do get away with it, simply because of the difficulty in identifying and catching them, not because of any lack of will. They are not the same as the Pakistani street gangs in Rotherham - one member of whom was described by his victim as being cocky and thinking of himself as pretty much invincible. I don't think you are comparing like with like.
That's fine - all you have to do is stop responding to my posts.
Reverse racist jokes?
Anything that diverts from the fact that the majority of men convicted of grooming white children are of Pakistani heritage I think.
.
Really?
This thread is about the conviction of a Pakistani grooming gang and the report linked by the OP.
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham
The report , linked countless times in this thread, for anyone who hasn't bothered to read it, includes general child sexual abuse, grooming gangs, convictions and a whole lot more across the board. Now we are told that discussing the broader picture is not allowed, only Pakistani gangs, unless asked by other FM's to provide information they want, of course. Then it is still not allowed and dismissed as irrelevant to the thread with wrongful accusations of constant deflection thrown around. I would suggest looking at FM's posts is an easy way to see the truth of what they've actually said.
Well here you go, as simple as it now has to be. A Pakistani gang were grooming children and women in Rotherham, mainly white. There is a racist attitude that white girls are worthless but they target anyone available, basically. I won't mention the thorny issue of police gross incompetence and dereliction of duty (usually a very good and seemingly endless talking point at any other time, for some
link
Good news. Hopefully it will be looked at in Rochdale, Oxford etc too.
Indeed. I think the government have realised that the screaming hysterical reaction every time race is brought up as a relevant issue, and the apprehension that generates, has got to be tackled, as it has proved to the detriment of child safety in this case.
And about time too! Why does it take such a catastrophic series of events to motivate Governments of either side to act on something which we have all been aware of and right across the board, for years.
Who knows they may even put some funding into mental health care now we have the damaged victims in the public eye.
At last, we righties, D.M readers are being taken notice of, after years of abuse from the lefty Guardianistas.
All these things are constantly repeated in every newspaper, and every media outlet, and of course never ending threads on chat and message forums.
I should think about half of them always include plenty of statements that 'we are never allowed to discuss this'.
The abuse of children isn't a left/right issue. It's rather sad if some are trying to portray it that way.
No but in this instance it is being carried out by groups of Pakistanis which everyone has been afraid to point out for fear of being accused of racism by the lefties.
I am not a 'racist' and what really infuriates me is hundreds of these evil bastards are walking around free without a care in the world - all because of the gutless authorities and sickening PC ideological bullshit that was far more important to them than those poor children's lives. >:(