They knew, however, that their enemies would hang them for it.
That's why they tried to hide it.
None of them believed they were wrong. They thought the people they murdered were basicaly animals. Like cattle.
I wouldn't treat an insect as badly as how they treated people. Even if they were animals in their eyes. What ever made it acceptable to torture, beat and starve them.
I find it very hard to believe that they did not see that it was wrong. They knew all right. Like a lot of people in the world they were cruel, and evil. And they deserved everything they had coming to them.
I have a question regarding World War 2 and the Holocaust.
When is it an acceptable time for people to move on from the affect it had on a race/religion of people.
Is it 50, 100, 150 or even 200 years?
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Have we not moved on then already? There's idealogical issues that are still current and the "Holocaust" is still relevant to some of them. I wouldn't say people generally were obsessed with it though.
How many innocent people went to their deaths prematurely during the moon landings, then?
quite a few i would suspect from failed rocket tests. also the americans 'hired' werner von braun who was once a member of the nazi party(and designed the v2 rocket) and without his help they wouldnt' have landed on the moon before 1970 as kennedy wanted'
maybe a better example would be the holocaust of the armenians by the ottomans, of course the turks completely deny the event occured but they also imprison people for 'unturkishness'
The "crime" of denying the holocaust is, I assume, to dishonour the people that died.
To deny the moon landings or subscribe to various 9/11 conspiracies makes a person equally guitly of dishonouring innocent people who died during those events.
SSDD.
By denying the holocaust, you are disrespecting people who lived through it. And accusing them of lieing about what was done to them. On a very large scale.
Have we not moved on then already? There's idealogical issues that are still current and the "Holocaust" is still relevant to some of them. I wouldn't say people generally were obsessed with it though.
I never said people were obsessed, I asked when is a good time to move on, from it. I'm referring to people taking about it like it is yesterday.
I have no issue what-so-ever with people talking about the affects the Holocaust had on Jewish people and other group that was subject to the evil Hilter and his Nazi's inflicted on them.
I never said people were obsessed, I asked when is a good time to move on, from it. I'm referring to people taking about it like it is yesterday.I have no issue what-so-ever with people talking about the affects the Holocaust had on Jewish people and other group that was subject to the evil Hilter and his Nazi's inflicted on them.
I've been in two minds about posting in this thread - for I normally avoid Holocaust debates simply because they never saty "clean" - as nearly three pages of this thread shows But there are some points I'd like to pick up on...
First of all - the point made just above about visiting Auschwitz - the "camp" we see today if we visit ISN'T the GERMAN camp....it was almost eradicated by the Nazis; what is shown to the world TODAY as evidence of the Nazis' atrocities is actually the SOVIET RECONSTRUCTION of what used to be there during the war. The Russians used Auschwitz for many years postwar as an internment and labour camp! In fact, for far longer than the Nazis did...
By all means go and visit the place - but don't look upon the camp that's there now as anything more than a "memorial" to the victims of the Holocaust, it's not actually historical evidence of anything; if this was a criminal trial, the judge would say that "the evidence had been tampered with after the fact" because of the Soviets' reconstruction/rebuilding of what they thought was there - and for their OWN nefarious uses! :eek:
Secondly - it's best to always remember that Holocaust Denial comes in several diferent..."flavours" :eek: Yes, there are those that say it simply never happened, or that it simply didn't happen to the extent/numbers we think we know...
1/ There are those who seek to minimise the CRIME...by saying oh look, this was intelligent, learned Germans who carried this out, SS officers with university degrees etc. - so it can't have REALLY been that bad or out of order, can it?
2/ Along the same lines - there are those that attempt to minimise the GENOCIDAL aspect of it by saying "oh look - sure wasn't ALL of Europe rife with Anti-Semitism to one extent or another in the 19th and early 20th Centuries?" They don't seem to realise that this doesn;t make the Nazis less wrong....instead it makes a LOT of other nations and political social groups look as questionable as they!
3/ There are those who seek to minimise the MORAL crime by saying -"Oh look at what came out of it! Many discoveries were made, a lot of work into neurological illnesses, heart diseases etc. were made by the (butchering) researching doctors in the Camps." Yes they were - but that doesn't make the crimes involved any less.
The problem with banning Holocaust Denial is - some of these latter types of Denier are very insidious; they accept the numerical toll of the event.....but try to find some good in it! :eek: Making it a crime would force them underground, out of sight....passing it on from generation to generation like some sort of nursed greivance that THEY were presecuted because THEY were telling the truth!
Me, I prefer my enemies out in the open where I can knock them down. I don't want them out of sight and out of mind. I don't want them hiding away, growing their twisted perverted beliefs, for fear of prosecution - I want the VERY bright light of public oprobium to shine upon them.
I asked about innocent civilians, not professional military test pilots, who presumably knew what they were getting themselves involved with...
nasa scientists dont work for the military. anyway about my point about werner von braun? i'm not sure why you're arguing against my point, plenty people did die in attempting to get to the moon and i answered it there.
While I abhor their thinking and pity their lonely brain cell, did the people who fought in the war not fight for freedom of speech no matter what that is?
I'd rather know who these people are, we are safer with them outed.
They are better to keep it to themselves imo, or talk about it on the internet I guess. If they are going on youtube to talk about their hatred, I doubt they have much influence over anything.
I understand what your saying but the reason I ask this question is because a black person talks about slavery, they get dismissed as if this part of our history does not matter.
In a way they way our ancestors had to deal with slavery shaped the way generations after that act and react to things. I talking from an evolutionary stand point.
Slavery was only abolished just over 150 years...does this mean in another 100 years or so, jewish people shouldn't talk about the Holocaust?
I understand what your saying but the reason I ask this question is because a black person talks about slavery, they get dismissed as if this part of our history does not matter.
In a way they way our ancestors had to deal with slavery shaped the way generations after that act and react to things. I talking from an evolutionary stand point.
Slavery was only abolished just over 150 years...does this mean in another 100 years or so, jewish people shouldn't talk about the Holocaust?
You should always be able to talk about it, crimes like that should never be forgotten, it is only by talking about things we can educate others why their duty as a new generation is to ensure it never happens again!
By denying the holocaust, you are disrespecting people who lived through it. And accusing them of lieing about what was done to them. On a very large scale.
I agree that holocaust denial is a desecration of the memory of all that suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis. I still don't see how criminalizing the free expression of thoughts, even offensive and evil thoughts, in any way rectifies the situation. Making holocaust denial a jail-able offense will only serve to drive the conspiracy nuts underground and lend fuel to their paranoid fire. Let them spout off in public, and we will ridicule them accordingly.
Totally agree it is modern history and there are many people alive today who lived through those events. The other point about all this is that it is so well documented with first hand accounts.
Having said that there's an interesting program coming up on the History channel about Julius Ceasar and his genocidal activities in Gaul.
For me it's all about tyranny, spin, submission to the state and abuse of power. Needs to be understood how bad things can get if you let it.
I understand what your saying but the reason I ask this question is because a black person talks about slavery, they get dismissed as if this part of our history does not matter.
In a way they way our ancestors had to deal with slavery shaped the way generations after that act and react to things. I talking from an evolutionary stand point.
Slavery was only abolished just over 150 years...does this mean in another 100 years or so, jewish people shouldn't talk about the Holocaust?
Slavery is another big time horror of the past. It should be open for discussion especially since it still goes on. I wasn't aware it was a closed subject.
However I know I am going to get lambasted for this post even if it is true.
On April 18, 1945, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, The New York Times reported that 4 million people died at Auschwitz. This "fact" was reported over and over again during the next half-century, without being questioned.
However, on January 26, 1995, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation, both The Washington Post and The New York Times itself reported that the Polish authorities had determined that, at most, 1.5 million people (of all races and religions)-not "4 million"-died at Auschwitz of all causes, including natural causes.
Yet this was not the first time this drastically reduced figure appeared in the major media. Almost five years previously, on July 17, 1990, The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph. That article stated:
Poland has cut its estimate of the number of people killed by the Nazis in the Auschwitz death camp from 4 million to just over 1 million . . . The new study could rekindle the controversy over the scale of Hitler's "final solution" . . .
The 1.1 million victims included 960,000 Jews, between 70,000 and 75,000 Poles, nearly all of the 23,000 Gypsies sent to the camp and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war.
This detail of history was intriguing, since, after all, history books had said for a generation that of the 6 million Jews who died during the Holocaust, 4 million died at Auschwitz alone. Thus, if the new facts were correct, the actual overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims had to be considerably less than the much-talked-about figure of 6 million. Put simply: subtract the former 4 million Jews dead at Auschwitz from the popular 6 million, and that leaves 2 million Jews dead. Simple math-and a controversial conclusion indeed.
As part of the holocaust, the NAZIS also murdered a great many POWs.
As soldiers, those POWs presumably knew what they were getting themselves involved with
Bob -
1/ Soldiers who ended up as POWs had the legal right to expect equitable treatment for POWs as laid down in the Hague and Geneva Conventions....not to be shot.
2/ ever heard of conscription? Young men in the belligerent nations of that period didn't actually often get the choice as to whether to go to war or not...
Slavery is another big time horror of the past. It should be open for discussion especially since it still goes on. I wasn't aware it was a closed subject.
People continually say move on it happened ages ago...I was really just through a spanner in the works, food for thought.
But back on topic...when something in history is well documented by photographical and video-graphical evidence, then the person who denies the act, is plain evil and unwilling to accept the truth.
No I'm not a fan of ancient history, because it is basically and archaeologist interpretation of the material evidence that the have in-front of them. But this I can view for myself and see the evil that occurred.
People continually say move on it happened ages ago...I was really just through a spanner in the works, food for thought.
But back on topic...when something in history is well documented by photographical and video-graphical evidence, then the person who denies the act, is plain evil and unwilling to accept the truth.
No I'm not a fan of ancient history, because it is basically and archaeologist interpretation of the material evidence that the have in-front of them. But this I can view for myself and see the evil that occurred.
We should move on. In that we should not punish the new generations for the crimes of their ancestors. Eg: We should not hold the new generations of Germans responsible for the Holocaust as it happened before they were born and have no control over it.
Comments
None of them believed they were wrong. They thought the people they murdered were basicaly animals. Like cattle.
I wouldn't treat an insect as badly as how they treated people. Even if they were animals in their eyes. What ever made it acceptable to torture, beat and starve them.
I find it very hard to believe that they did not see that it was wrong. They knew all right. Like a lot of people in the world they were cruel, and evil. And they deserved everything they had coming to them.
It is aways an acceptable time to move on make sure it never happens again.
It should not be forgotten but it should be learnt from and there should be no time scale on that.
Have we not moved on then already? There's idealogical issues that are still current and the "Holocaust" is still relevant to some of them. I wouldn't say people generally were obsessed with it though.
Quite.
quite a few i would suspect from failed rocket tests. also the americans 'hired' werner von braun who was once a member of the nazi party(and designed the v2 rocket) and without his help they wouldnt' have landed on the moon before 1970 as kennedy wanted'
maybe a better example would be the holocaust of the armenians by the ottomans, of course the turks completely deny the event occured but they also imprison people for 'unturkishness'
By denying the holocaust, you are disrespecting people who lived through it. And accusing them of lieing about what was done to them. On a very large scale.
I asked about innocent civilians, not professional military test pilots, who presumably knew what they were getting themselves involved with...
I never said people were obsessed, I asked when is a good time to move on, from it. I'm referring to people taking about it like it is yesterday.
I have no issue what-so-ever with people talking about the affects the Holocaust had on Jewish people and other group that was subject to the evil Hilter and his Nazi's inflicted on them.
In the grand scheme of things, it was.
This is modern history
First of all - the point made just above about visiting Auschwitz - the "camp" we see today if we visit ISN'T the GERMAN camp....it was almost eradicated by the Nazis; what is shown to the world TODAY as evidence of the Nazis' atrocities is actually the SOVIET RECONSTRUCTION of what used to be there during the war. The Russians used Auschwitz for many years postwar as an internment and labour camp! In fact, for far longer than the Nazis did...
By all means go and visit the place - but don't look upon the camp that's there now as anything more than a "memorial" to the victims of the Holocaust, it's not actually historical evidence of anything; if this was a criminal trial, the judge would say that "the evidence had been tampered with after the fact" because of the Soviets' reconstruction/rebuilding of what they thought was there - and for their OWN nefarious uses! :eek:
Secondly - it's best to always remember that Holocaust Denial comes in several diferent..."flavours" :eek: Yes, there are those that say it simply never happened, or that it simply didn't happen to the extent/numbers we think we know...
1/ There are those who seek to minimise the CRIME...by saying oh look, this was intelligent, learned Germans who carried this out, SS officers with university degrees etc. - so it can't have REALLY been that bad or out of order, can it?
2/ Along the same lines - there are those that attempt to minimise the GENOCIDAL aspect of it by saying "oh look - sure wasn't ALL of Europe rife with Anti-Semitism to one extent or another in the 19th and early 20th Centuries?" They don't seem to realise that this doesn;t make the Nazis less wrong....instead it makes a LOT of other nations and political social groups look as questionable as they!
3/ There are those who seek to minimise the MORAL crime by saying -"Oh look at what came out of it! Many discoveries were made, a lot of work into neurological illnesses, heart diseases etc. were made by the (butchering) researching doctors in the Camps." Yes they were - but that doesn't make the crimes involved any less.
The problem with banning Holocaust Denial is - some of these latter types of Denier are very insidious; they accept the numerical toll of the event.....but try to find some good in it! :eek: Making it a crime would force them underground, out of sight....passing it on from generation to generation like some sort of nursed greivance that THEY were presecuted because THEY were telling the truth!
Me, I prefer my enemies out in the open where I can knock them down. I don't want them out of sight and out of mind. I don't want them hiding away, growing their twisted perverted beliefs, for fear of prosecution - I want the VERY bright light of public oprobium to shine upon them.
nasa scientists dont work for the military. anyway about my point about werner von braun? i'm not sure why you're arguing against my point, plenty people did die in attempting to get to the moon and i answered it there.
They are better to keep it to themselves imo, or talk about it on the internet I guess. If they are going on youtube to talk about their hatred, I doubt they have much influence over anything.
I understand what your saying but the reason I ask this question is because a black person talks about slavery, they get dismissed as if this part of our history does not matter.
In a way they way our ancestors had to deal with slavery shaped the way generations after that act and react to things. I talking from an evolutionary stand point.
Slavery was only abolished just over 150 years...does this mean in another 100 years or so, jewish people shouldn't talk about the Holocaust?
NASA lost 6 astronauts getting to the moon.
During the same period, the Russians lost well over a hundred people (not all astronauts) in their space exploits.
You should always be able to talk about it, crimes like that should never be forgotten, it is only by talking about things we can educate others why their duty as a new generation is to ensure it never happens again!
I agree that holocaust denial is a desecration of the memory of all that suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis. I still don't see how criminalizing the free expression of thoughts, even offensive and evil thoughts, in any way rectifies the situation. Making holocaust denial a jail-able offense will only serve to drive the conspiracy nuts underground and lend fuel to their paranoid fire. Let them spout off in public, and we will ridicule them accordingly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4733820.stm
Totally agree it is modern history and there are many people alive today who lived through those events. The other point about all this is that it is so well documented with first hand accounts.
Having said that there's an interesting program coming up on the History channel about Julius Ceasar and his genocidal activities in Gaul.
For me it's all about tyranny, spin, submission to the state and abuse of power. Needs to be understood how bad things can get if you let it.
As part of the holocaust, the NAZIS also murdered a great many POWs.
As soldiers, those POWs presumably knew what they were getting themselves involved with
FYI. Astronaut, Elliott See was a civilian test pilot.
Slavery is another big time horror of the past. It should be open for discussion especially since it still goes on. I wasn't aware it was a closed subject.
However I know I am going to get lambasted for this post even if it is true.
http://www.rense.com/general62/aauc.htm
Bob -
1/ Soldiers who ended up as POWs had the legal right to expect equitable treatment for POWs as laid down in the Hague and Geneva Conventions....not to be shot.
2/ ever heard of conscription? Young men in the belligerent nations of that period didn't actually often get the choice as to whether to go to war or not...
People continually say move on it happened ages ago...I was really just through a spanner in the works, food for thought.
But back on topic...when something in history is well documented by photographical and video-graphical evidence, then the person who denies the act, is plain evil and unwilling to accept the truth.
No I'm not a fan of ancient history, because it is basically and archaeologist interpretation of the material evidence that the have in-front of them. But this I can view for myself and see the evil that occurred.
We should move on. In that we should not punish the new generations for the crimes of their ancestors. Eg: We should not hold the new generations of Germans responsible for the Holocaust as it happened before they were born and have no control over it.