I think the case for the murder of Reeva was a good case, well presented. I'm sorry it failed. I disagree with her . I am sure that very few people in the world believe his cock and bull story however for a conviction of intent the standard is indeed very high so perhaps the prosecution failed to reach it. For eventualis there is no doubt in my mind that he shot with intent.
I agree with this completely, and it reflects how I feel.
Apparently South African law requires that the person has both intent and volition, that is a form of reconciling oneself to the possible outcome.
Obviously this is is something that could occur in seconds, but without being inside someone's head, you can't know exactly what they were thinking at the time. Other legal experts think cognitive intent and volition are one and the same.
I think it is safe to assume that when a person who knows guns and ammunition, picks up a gun and fires it repeatedly into a small enclosure, they have intent and they have chosen to disregard the consequences. That is dolus eventualis, isn't it.
What the judge did was really semantics, as I see it. There was intent, but it was not intent toward Reeva because she was in bed, supposedly. And the case was brought in the name of Reeva,
The judge accepted what OP said was in his mind at the same time she found him evasive as an informant.
I don't think you have to be a legal expert to question why she would accept the word of an evasive person.
In addition, criminal proof is not scientific proof, so when someone says there is not forensic proof, it is really a question of how much proof they are going to ask for, when the case is circumstantial.
Again, great post, and this is the size of it. It appears that all 'circumstantial' evidence was pretty much summarily dismissed, which is tough in a case with only two there and one killed the other, have to say.
Well I thought I could but since you corrected me on the last thing I posted, I thought I'd better check!
As far as I understand it these legal experts accept the judge's ruling re dolus directus but have an issue with her ruling re dolus eventualis. I was just trying to find out who - of those who are in disagreement with judge masipa's verdict- also accept (like the legal experts who keep being referred to) that dolus directus was not established.
There are some that disagree with her finding of FACT as well as her interpretation of dolus eventualis - so it appears that although the evidence for directus may be accepted as 'not enough', there are some concerns about her grasp on the case.
This is as I would expect as she appears to have dismissed swathes of evidence including the ballistics as irrelevant.
It does seem that way sometimes, but there are some more rational posters.
It has been bizarre to see some posters' over-emotional reactions, saying they're crying, etc., while even Reeva's parents have managed not to break down in court.
Unfortunately, a few people have got so caught up in the drama that they have forgotten that they are just viewers, not qualified lawyers, like the admirable Judge Masipa.
Surely a fair reflection of society? We have seen the Support for Oscar forum. Full of people who , regardless of any evidence consider him a hero and innocent. At the other extreme some justice for Reeva extremists. Who do in fact want OP locked away for ever. There are many shades inbetween . This thread has been a fair reflection of the inbetweeners.
It does seem that way sometimes, but there are some more rational posters.
It has been bizarre to see some posters' over-emotional reactions, saying they're crying, etc., while even Reeva's parents have managed not to break down in court.
Unfortunately, a few people have got so caught up in the drama that they have forgotten that they are just viewers, not qualified lawyers, like the admirable Judge Masipa.
while I haven't cried, I would like to say there is no shame in crying.
we are not just viewers, we are fellow citizens of this planet entitled to feel sad when justice is seen not to be served for someone brutally killed when her adult life was just beginning.
Surely a fair reflection of society? We have seen the Support for Oscar forum. Full of people who , regardless of any evidence consider him a hero and innocent. At the other extreme some justice for Reeva extremists. Who do in fact want OP locked away for ever. There are many shades inbetween . This thread has been a fair reflection of the inbetweeners.
Yes, certainly, and I love DS! Personally, I've gone from believing Oscar, to disbelieving, and now I'm content to leave it in the capable hands of an experienced judge. It's interesting stuff.
while I haven't cried, I would like to say there is no shame in crying.
we are not just viewers, we are fellow citizens of this planet entitled to feel sad when justice is seen not to be served for someone brutally killed when her adult life was just beginning.
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
I think it's rather strange that someone thinks that the same sort of feelings of emapthetic horror that people feel for the parents of a girl who was shot to pieces in a toilet, should be given to the family of the man who killed her, and pretty much got away with it, personally.
Yes, certainly, and I love DS! Personally, I've gone from believing Oscar, to disbelieving, and now I'm content to leave it in the capable hands of an experienced judge. It's interesting stuff.
If God posted on here he / she / it would be accused of being too Opinionated.
Wonder what Posting Name God would give himself ...... Iwaitforrall ?
So do posters on here who feel Judge Masipa got it wrong agree with the legal experts that the intentional murder of RS was not proved beyond reasonable doubt?
i didn't think the state proved pre-med beyond reasonable doubt. but with all the legal experts saying she got the dolus eventualis law wrong, i do wonder if that was the case, as it was certainly the verdict i expected
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
Yes, and we should also recognise OP's suffering, although I believe he deserves some degree of suffering according to the crime he's committed. Some posters on here have laughed at, mocked and dismissed as contrived the responses OP had in court which looked to me pretty genuine.
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
Perhaps because they have seldom looked vulnerable nor contrite. I'm not saying they aren't . The commandeering the court after the verdict jarred nerves. The cheering days after Reevas death when he got bail. The story this morning that he will compete in the Olympics and write a book. None of that looks particularly good and does nor invite compassion. It's to do with perceptions and rightly or wrongly they are percieved as callous and arrogant.
I think it's rather strange that someone thinks that the same sort of feelings of emapthetic horror that people feel for the parents of a girl who was shot to pieces in a toilet, should be given to the family of the man who killed her, personally.
I can't understand this Rhumba... they haven't committed the crime under discussion - all they're guilty of is standing by their relative.
Yes, and we should also recognise OP's suffering, although I believe he deserves some degree of suffering according to the crime he's committed. Some posters on here have laughed at, mocked and dismissed as contrived the responses OP had in court which looked to me pretty genuine.
Well, that's your opinion. I thought his emotional performance demonstrated mostly pity for himself and was used with free and selfish abandon in order to divert attention to him, on occasion, and to 'convince' others of his remorse. The fact that he refused any OUNCE of blame at the end of the trial, not even blaming himself for being too hasty or anything, but through the trial put blame everywhere else including Reeva, didn't add to my perception that he was crying with genuine feeling for anyone but himself.
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
Oscar's family still have him and any pain they feel was caused by his actions .. no-one elses. They have made stupid comments as well so it's hard to feel sympathy. Also .. are they the enablers of his behaviour? .. because it still seems to me as if they think he can do no wrong (fairly common but they go further in thinking it an outrage that he should have ever been charged.)
Reeva's Mum and Dad will never see her again ... they weren't able to do anything about it .. she died in one of the worst ways imaginable and that must haunt them day and night. On top of that it now seems the judge is just viewing it as an accident. Can you imagine dealing with that? Having the judge talk about HIS remorse proving his innocence.
We all know that if Oscar was dead the Pistorius' would be kicking up the biggest stink ever.
It does seem that way sometimes, but there are some more rational posters.
It has been bizarre to see some posters' over-emotional reactions, saying they're crying, etc., while even Reeva's parents have managed not to break down in court.
Unfortunately, a few people have got so caught up in the drama that they have forgotten that they are just viewers, not qualified lawyers, like the admirable Judge Masipa.
If you're referring to me I make no apologies, this trial and thread has been a big part of my life for months. I have not forgotten I am just a viewer, I have a daughter of a similar age who was in an abusive relationship. I actually stepped in at one point and told her boyfriend that if I ever heard him scream abuse down the phone at her again.......I'd kill him >:( so I can really put myself in Reeva's parents position.
You do come up with some good points at times. If it was just him saying these things your point would hit really Home, but much younger, less gnarly looking people have said much the same. He is but one voice, but not a voice in a Wilderness.;-)
Are there any legal experts (apart from herself) who think she got it right
Perhaps because they have seldom looked vulnerable nor contrite. I'm not saying they aren't . The commandeering the court after the verdict jarred nerves. I hardly think thanking the Judge, expressing that there are no victors, saying there is still a long way to go and declining to take questions is commandeering the court. Reeva's family also commented, but to a TV station. As they were perfectly entitled to do.
The cheering days after Reevas death when he got bail. This was just an audio, there is no proof that it was hs famly that cheered. The Uncle particualrly pointed out they were iin mourning.
The story this morning that he will compete in the Olympics and write a book. Ths was a comment from his manager, nothing to do with his family, and I doubt it was authorised by them. None of that looks particularly good and does nor invite compassion. It's to do with perceptions and rightly or wrongly they are percieved as callous and arrogant.
OP's got a book deal now, announced already - nice extra little earner.
Strange how he must remember some stuff now, he appeared rather confused and forgetful on the stand.
That wasn't the most sensitive and least arrogant thing to do.
I personally think the Pistorii have a lot of power and money and influence and aren't bothered about using it. Things like the boat 'accident' were 'hushed up' etc. OP goes in for 'counter suing' in a big way too. - the incident with the assault on the girl, which makes it very difficult for people to afford to get any redress legally.
They chuck their weight about, then they hold hands and pray. I find the PIstorii a repugnant and frightening bunch.
Comments
My MIL had a lovely violet shade . It actually was lovely. Now we dye and lie.
I agree with this completely, and it reflects how I feel.
Again, great post, and this is the size of it. It appears that all 'circumstantial' evidence was pretty much summarily dismissed, which is tough in a case with only two there and one killed the other, have to say.
There are some that disagree with her finding of FACT as well as her interpretation of dolus eventualis - so it appears that although the evidence for directus may be accepted as 'not enough', there are some concerns about her grasp on the case.
This is as I would expect as she appears to have dismissed swathes of evidence including the ballistics as irrelevant.
on twitter https://twitter.com/Chrisng53
"I join the whole world in lamenting this travesty of justice. The court failed Reeva."
Surely a fair reflection of society? We have seen the Support for Oscar forum. Full of people who , regardless of any evidence consider him a hero and innocent. At the other extreme some justice for Reeva extremists. Who do in fact want OP locked away for ever. There are many shades inbetween . This thread has been a fair reflection of the inbetweeners.
That's pretty damning. But he's a retired judge so what does he know.
while I haven't cried, I would like to say there is no shame in crying.
we are not just viewers, we are fellow citizens of this planet entitled to feel sad when justice is seen not to be served for someone brutally killed when her adult life was just beginning.
Yes, certainly, and I love DS!
There's no shame in crying, I agree, but I find it sad that some people will cry for Reeva's parents, but not for Oscar's. They have suffered a lot too.
I think it's rather strange that someone thinks that the same sort of feelings of emapthetic horror that people feel for the parents of a girl who was shot to pieces in a toilet, should be given to the family of the man who killed her, and pretty much got away with it, personally.
If God posted on here he / she / it would be accused of being too Opinionated.
Wonder what Posting Name God would give himself ...... Iwaitforrall ?
i didn't think the state proved pre-med beyond reasonable doubt. but with all the legal experts saying she got the dolus eventualis law wrong, i do wonder if that was the case, as it was certainly the verdict i expected
Yes, and we should also recognise OP's suffering, although I believe he deserves some degree of suffering according to the crime he's committed. Some posters on here have laughed at, mocked and dismissed as contrived the responses OP had in court which looked to me pretty genuine.
Perhaps because they have seldom looked vulnerable nor contrite. I'm not saying they aren't . The commandeering the court after the verdict jarred nerves. The cheering days after Reevas death when he got bail. The story this morning that he will compete in the Olympics and write a book. None of that looks particularly good and does nor invite compassion. It's to do with perceptions and rightly or wrongly they are percieved as callous and arrogant.
I can't understand this Rhumba... they haven't committed the crime under discussion - all they're guilty of is standing by their relative.
Well, that's your opinion. I thought his emotional performance demonstrated mostly pity for himself and was used with free and selfish abandon in order to divert attention to him, on occasion, and to 'convince' others of his remorse. The fact that he refused any OUNCE of blame at the end of the trial, not even blaming himself for being too hasty or anything, but through the trial put blame everywhere else including Reeva, didn't add to my perception that he was crying with genuine feeling for anyone but himself.
Reeva's Mum and Dad will never see her again ... they weren't able to do anything about it .. she died in one of the worst ways imaginable and that must haunt them day and night. On top of that it now seems the judge is just viewing it as an accident. Can you imagine dealing with that? Having the judge talk about HIS remorse proving his innocence.
We all know that if Oscar was dead the Pistorius' would be kicking up the biggest stink ever.
Who is alive and probably will get a bit of community service in Uncle Arnies' golf club.
Who did not die in terror smashed to bits. And remains dead.
The pistorius have a great deal more to be thankful for.
If you're referring to me I make no apologies, this trial and thread has been a big part of my life for months. I have not forgotten I am just a viewer, I have a daughter of a similar age who was in an abusive relationship. I actually stepped in at one point and told her boyfriend that if I ever heard him scream abuse down the phone at her again.......I'd kill him >:( so I can really put myself in Reeva's parents position.
Admirable Masipa? Lol!
OP's got a book deal now, announced already - nice extra little earner.
Strange how he must remember some stuff now, he appeared rather confused and forgetful on the stand.
That wasn't the most sensitive and least arrogant thing to do.
I personally think the Pistorii have a lot of power and money and influence and aren't bothered about using it. Things like the boat 'accident' were 'hushed up' etc. OP goes in for 'counter suing' in a big way too. - the incident with the assault on the girl, which makes it very difficult for people to afford to get any redress legally.
They chuck their weight about, then they hold hands and pray. I find the PIstorii a repugnant and frightening bunch.
And that's up to me.
I don't think Maringar quite gets that the ammo was IN OPS SAFE, he had possession.
And that possession will be presumed even if he didn't know about it.
Masipa truly cocked up with that one. Dear oh my, curious all this.
As I said earlier , there are people at all extremes of the spectrum. You appear to be at one end I at another.