Of course you can display the new disc before the old one runs out----provided of course you have tax for that month........Also, unless the situation has changed recently, Traffic Wardens (or TPCSOs) do not have authority to give FPNs for Tax, they can only "Report" it, and i dont believe the Police have either, are u sure it not a "Wind Up"?
I can't comment on the PCSO part as they seem to have varying powers up and down the country, different per force. However, police officers can issue FPNs for the offence of failing to display a tax disk.
There could be a burglary 2 minutes away, but they would rather spend time sniffing around a car with a tax disc less than 24 hours out of date.
Wrong.
Congratulations! Three 'wrongs' within seconds of reading the initial part of your post. You have excelled yourself at being wrong.
I can assure you that if I have the option of responding to a burglary in progress / 'thieves on' or sticking an FPN to an unattended motorvehicle's windscreen I'll be opting for the burglary every single day. And I don't think you'll ever find a cop who would think otherwise.
I had a similar problem a few years ago where I was simply driving along and my gear box died there and then and it was a saturday night. The car was about 4 miles from home and I had to go back the following day to put a note inside the windscreen explaining the situation and that the vehicle is awaiting removal.
The following day? Surely you cannot blame someone for doing their job if you waited until the next day to make people aware of an issue you claim your car was suffering with? The person dealing with your car at the time would have been unaware, how would you expect them to know with you waiting until the next day to make people aware?
When I went back I had a fixed penalty notice for causing an obstruction. The thing is that there was NO double yellow lines and NO signs stating that you could not park near the kerb
There doesn't need to be. Don't confuse the offence with simply parking on double yellow lines.
so I went straight to my local police to explain the situation and they were very un-co-operative
Normally an FPN has a procedure to use when appealing against it. Simply visiting a police station is not appropriate, there's normally a central point of contact such as a 'central ticket office' or detailed instructions on the FPN itself.
regardless of OTHER vehicles being parked along the same stretch of road.
The emphasis on 'other' here suggests you feel badly done to because you got an FPN for an offence you were accused of while other vehicles did not. There could be many reasons for this, perhaps they weren't causing an obstruction or weren't there at the time of the police being there, I guess we'll never know, but either way someone else not being caught for committing an offence doesn't make it right for others to commit that offence - which at the time you were suspected of committing.
I made it perfectly clear what had happened and I vowed NOT to pay the charge because I wasn't parked in a restricted zone
It doesn't have to be a 'restricted zone' for your vehicle to cause an obstruction. From what you've posted so far it appears you don't understand what you've actually received the FPN for, which may explain why you are feeling so badly done to.
and the gear box failure was not intentional and it was beyond my control.
Fair enough, if the gearbox failed then you're starting along the lines of possibly having grounds to appeal. However I would suggest that the note you waited until the next day to put in the car would have probably been better done on the same day to avoid this problem in the first place. You can imagine how many drivers may try such an excuse after being ticketed.
The earliest I could get the car removed was on the tuesday
If the car was causing an obstruction then this is unreasonable of you and far too long to wait to have the obstruction removed from the road. There's a reason that it's an offence to cause an obstruction, it can be hazardous to others. Leaving it in a position that's causing an obstruction for this amount of time isn't fair on other road users and may even cause others a danger depending on the way it's been left.
and all I got from the Police was 'We will have to remove it at a cost of £120' and a charge of £10 a day storage....
Very reasonable of them, I know that cars that I have removed tend to cost £150 and £20 a day for standard cars. Looks like you got a good deal
And the police removing it at a cost to you is justified if it's causing an obstruction, especially when you state yourself that you cannot remove it in a reasonable amount of time.
I said 'fair enough...YOU have it towed, but I wont pay the removal fees or storage fees as it is now deemed as scrap anyway!'
That sounds like a considerably unreasonable response and one that suggests your tone was perhaps less than friendly and polite towards a person simply dealing with your enquiry and until that point not being involved with you or your car. So who was it that was really being unreasonable on the day?
I had made plans to have it removed at the earliest time I could and the Police were still being difficult.
Yes, how dare they. Did they not realise the world rotates around you, your Highness?:rolleyes:
If the car was causing an obstruction and you couldn't remove it in a reasonable amount of time then the police were doing their job and trying to make you take responsibility for your own vehicle in a public place.
The Police knew I had the situation in hand, they knew full well the car wasn't causing an obstruction and they knew it would be removed so why the fixed penalty notice and the hard time over something beyond my control?
If the officer that issued you the FPN didn't believe the car was causing an obstruction then they wouldn't have issued it, if the police didn't believe the car was causing an obstruction and you weren't capable of removing it in a reasonable amount of time they wouldn't have considered having it towed. Think about it.....
I understand the Police are there to do a job...but fining and penalising somone just because their car had packed up was taking it too far!
They didn't do that. Read your own post and you'll see that you didn't receive an FPN for your car 'packing up', the reason for receiving the FPN is there in your own words!
They don't in general. There may be the odd bad apple, in very small numbers, who are normally quickly dealt with and you do get the odd moron who will bad mouth the police but they tend to have their own agenda. Offenders tend to dislike the police and those who have been caught doing wrong and cannot take resposniblity for their own actions tend to dislike the police too, but on the whole the general thought about the police is a positive one when you're out on the streets dealing with people.
Sorry to hear about that OP, here in Manchester we give you 28 Days from expiration to get a new disc displayed, and even then we do a Check over radio to make sure the Car is still taxed, which in this case, it would have been as you recieved the disc the next day!
OP, if it makes you feel any better, (although not like your situation where it seems your car was parked on a public surface) I had a wrangle with local Neighbourhood Wardens a year or so ago, when my out-of-tax car was reported and towed away from my personal parking space in the car park adjacent to my flats. However, the space belongs to my property as per the deeds of the property, and thus the car wasn't parked on a public surface.
As I recall, I hadn't registered my car as SORN or seen the need to do so, as I knew it was parked on 'my land'.
It seemed no attempt had been made to trace or contact me, and I initally reported the car to the police as stolen when I found it had vanished.
The council made claims along the lines of 'they treat car parks as public areas' and were within their rights to treat my car as 'abandoned' by removing it and later charging me for its return.
They only backed down and returned my car for free and apologised, when I took it higher up the council chain and made it clear I had contacted the local press, who indeed showed interest in covering it.
Edit:
The farce came back to haunt me some time later, when I was stopped one night by the police, who had spotted my car as an outstanding stolen vehicle. I think I had informed the local police when I had initially discovered it had not been stolen, but this had gone unrecorded.
Sorry to hear about that OP, here in Manchester we give you 28 Days from expiration to get a new disc displayed, and even then we do a Check over radio to make sure the Car is still taxed, which in this case, it would have been as you recieved the disc the next day!
OP, if it makes you feel any better, (although not like your situation where it seems your car was parked on a public surface) I had a wrangle with local Neighbourhood Wardens a year or so ago, when my out-of-tax car was reported and towed away from my personal parking space in the car park adjacent to my flats. However, the space belongs to my property as per the deeds of the property, and thus the car wasn't parked on a public surface.
As I recall, I hadn't registered my car as SORN or seen the need to do so, as I knew it was parked on 'my land'.
It seemed no attempt had been made to trace or contact me, and I initally reported the car to the police as stolen when I found it had vanished.
The council made claims along the lines of 'they treat car parks as public areas' and were within their rights to treat my car as 'abandoned' by removing it and later charging me for its return.
They only backed down and returned my car for free and apologised, when I took it higher up the council chain and made it clear I had contacted the local press, who indeed showed interest in covering it.
Edit:
The farce came back to haunt me some time later, when I was stopped one night by the police, who had spotted my car as an outstanding stolen vehicle. I think I had informed the local police when I had initially discovered it had not been stolen, but this had gone unrecorded.
Re the SORN, you'd certainly be excepted to register SORN in the case you describe. The clues in the name, Statutory Off Road Noticifcation. So it seems that although the council were wrong in their actions, you were also not fully complying with the rules in relation to your car.
Congratulations! Three 'wrongs' within seconds of reading the initial part of your post. You have excelled yourself at being wrong.
You can't categorically state he was wrong on all three counts. Unfortunately he is totally correct on all 3 counts in terms of public perception of the police and other enforcement officials, even if it isn't actually the case.
You can't categorically state he was wrong on all three counts.
Can I not?
It is not about catching real criminals these days...
That's complete rubbish. As well as other roles, the police are there to deal with crime and criminals. To state otherwise is just a tad silly, which makes it a fair point to state that it's a wrong statement.
it is more of a case of scoring points from whatever they can.
Again, rubbish and again wrong. This is often the kind of statement you'd find from someone who's been caught committing an offence, say speeding or parking, and feels badly done to.
There could be a burglary 2 minutes away, but they would rather spend time sniffing around a car with a tax disc less than 24 hours out of date.
This is about as wrong as it gets. Catching a burglar in the act is a serious bonus. For a start it's rewarding to catch someone doing sort of despicable crime, it's normally something supervision are really keen on - especially with burglary offences being a priority in many parts of the country, and they're normally adrenaline filled or interesting jobs. So again - wrong.
So yes, I can say they are wrong on all 3 points. I am speaking from experience, they are not.
Unfortunately he is totally correct on all 3 counts in terms of public perception of the police and other enforcement officials, even if it isn't actually the case.
Again I don't agree. As someone doing the job and working the 'front line' in constant contact with the public I'll admit there are a few who may feel as the above, but the majority who I come in to contact with don't. So to state it's the public perception is incorrect as it seems to be a minority perception at the most. And a perception by a few doesn't make it fact and doesn't change the statements from being wrong, which they are.
Re the SORN, you'd certainly be expected (edit: corrected spelling of original) to register SORN in the case you describe. The clues in the name, Statutory Off Road Noticifcation. So it seems that although the council were wrong in their actions, you were also not fully complying with the rules in relation to your car.
Glad it all got sorted though.
ok, I see. I don't think I had SORN'd the car, but I don't recall exactly.
it seems a very harsh penalty to have been given, yes technically you have commited an offence but realistically if your not changing the disks over at exactly midnight OR displaying BOTH disks to cover your own back then your always going to end up comitting an offence.
Given you had the tax disk and they got you at 8.10am on the 1st of the month I would argue that you fully intended on replacing it as soon as you went to work on the 1st which is a completely reasonable thing to say and I would guess 99% of road users do exactly that (myself included).
Guess an appeal outcome would be more dependant on who was judging it tho.
good look and i hope you do win an appeal in the name of 'being human'
What irritates me is that a neighbour spotted four wardens being dropped off a couple of streets away about 7.50am and it seems they may have out to target cars as it was the 1st of the month.
Well, how else are the council going to pay for the trams?
;-)
I dunno about road tax but I got a parking ticket in Edinburgh from one of these jobsworths, failure to display my parking paid thing - it was a wet day and the window was steamed up and the sticky on the ticket was rubbish and it fell off.
They sent me all photos of my car etc. as 'proof' I had failed to display the parking ticket.
I appealed (contrary to popular opinion, the 'fine doubles if you don't pay quickly' counter goes ON HOLD during an appeal, because otherwise it would be grossly unfair). I sent them photocopies of my paid ticket, and an explanation, and apology.
They cancelled the fine, but said it was a 'gesture of goodwill', and legally they didn't have to, it wasn't up to them to make sure their tickets were sticky enough in the wet.
It's worth appealing anyways, just for the sheer bloody-mindedness of causing them some additional admin after being such a bunch of chancers going round on 1st month at 8am.
It appears so, from what the policeman poster has said. I really can't remember if I had SORN'd the car or not, but I think I hadn't.
I am/was under the belief anyway that a vehicle parked on private land doesn't require a SORN. It appears this is not the case and presumably I have never fully understood SORN requirements.
Might I suggest you ask for advice over on the Consumer Action Group forum. There are a number of very knowledgeable posters there who will be able to give you more reliable advice on where you stand.
Actually, you can't. A tax disc runs from a certain point in time to another. If on 31st August you display a tax disc that starts 1st September and remove your old one, you're committing the same offence - not displaying a current tax disc.
Theorectically, you are supposed to go ut at midnight and change over, or display the new one alongside the old one.
But I think you have had a jobsworth, so should appeal - and show every evidence you jave - even a photocopy of your new tax disc - to show that you had actually paid beforehand.
Personally, I would also phone the local newspaper - the local council will not like the embarrassment and will be cajouled into letting you off! (Been there, got the T-shirt!)
Taken from the back of my road tax renewal reminder form (delivered this week) - "if you apply online or over the phone in the last few days of the month - YOU WILL NOT BE COMMITTING AN OFFENCE IF YOU DO NOT DISPLAY A NEW TAX DISK FOR THE FIRST FIVE WORKING DAYS OF THE NEXT MONTH. This is a new law which gives time for the new tax disc to arrive in the post.
This new law only applies if you made your application for the new tax disc or sorn before the current one or sorn ran out. HOWEVER we accept that it is not always possible to tax your vehicle on time eg you may be waiting for insurance or getting an MOT for your vehicle. BY law, you, as the registered keeper, will NOT be committing an offence if you tax the vehicle or make a sorn within 14 days of the date your current tax runs out. You must keep your vehicle off the road during this time as you WILL be committing an offence if it used or parked on the road".
Dunno why you got the ticket in the first place - surely this info has been distributed to the enforcers?:o
I would certainly appeal it. The 5 days grace must be a new thing because 2 years ago (I get my tax disc online) my disc didn't arrive in the post in time. I rang the helpline number expecting them to say I would be fine to drive on my old one until the new one turned up given that I had bought it online as soon as the notice had come through and it wasn't my fault. But nope they told me I'd be illegal and I couldn't drive my car. I had to leave it on the drive for 3 days (when the new one turned up) presumably if I didn't have a drive so it was on the road they would possibly have fined me.
Well, how else are the council going to pay for the trams?
;-)
I dunno about road tax but I got a parking ticket in Edinburgh from one of these jobsworths, failure to display my parking paid thing - it was a wet day and the window was steamed up and the sticky on the ticket was rubbish and it fell off.
Try re-reading the post you replied to and think about the nonsense you posted.
Traffic Wardens have nothing to do with the council - they are employed by the police. (The police force badge on their uniforms and the word "police" on it should give some clue to this.)
Council Parking Enforcement officers have nothing to do with tax discs - VED is enforced by the police and DVLA. Parking enforce staff only deal with decriminalised parking issues, not other traffic offences.
Personally, I would also phone the local newspaper - the local council will not like the embarrassment and will be cajouled into letting you off! (Been there, got the T-shirt!)
Again, why do you think the council will care? Road traffic offence are dealt with by the police (PCs and TWs) and the council are certainly in no position to decide who to let off a FPN.
Nice to see the police are going after proper criminals, huh? :rolleyes:
I cant believe that we still have to p*$$ around sticking little circular discs in our cars. This is what databases were designed for, the Police have full access to this via mobile technologies. Theres a great opportunity to cut some carbon emmissions here by not having to print and then post out tax discs....
I cant believe that we still have to p*$$ around sticking little circular discs in our cars.
It does seem a little dated to be honest, but I guess we don't question it because it's what we've done for many, many years. It's also a lot more convenient now you can simply do it online instead of queueing up at a post office with several documents to get your disk in an outdated and long winded way.
This is what databases were designed for, the Police have full access to this via mobile technologies. Theres a great opportunity to cut some carbon emmissions here by not having to print and then post out tax discs....
Perhaps you're right, however they do still have their uses. If someone steals or clones number plates of example, it's not always possible to get their hands on the tax disk and it's a good way to spot a dodgy car. And it's also easier for officers to check tax disks when not using things such as ANPR. If you were to talk down the street and see an out of date tax disk, or not tax disk, on a car it stands out and you start to question it. However if they were no longer displayed and you weren't using ANPR you'd probably find a lot more get away with these offences because there's no way you'd be checking every single car in a row on a busy street.
So I'd suggest, for now, tax disks still have their place but perhaps it would be better to look at a tax and insurance disk or similar idea?
A large number of off-topic and disrespectful posts have been removed from this thread. If you see these in future, please alert them and do not respond to them.
Comments
I don't anticipate that I'll have any problems, though.
Congratulations! Three 'wrongs' within seconds of reading the initial part of your post. You have excelled yourself at being wrong.
I can assure you that if I have the option of responding to a burglary in progress / 'thieves on' or sticking an FPN to an unattended motorvehicle's windscreen I'll be opting for the burglary every single day. And I don't think you'll ever find a cop who would think otherwise.
The following day? Surely you cannot blame someone for doing their job if you waited until the next day to make people aware of an issue you claim your car was suffering with? The person dealing with your car at the time would have been unaware, how would you expect them to know with you waiting until the next day to make people aware? There doesn't need to be. Don't confuse the offence with simply parking on double yellow lines.
Normally an FPN has a procedure to use when appealing against it. Simply visiting a police station is not appropriate, there's normally a central point of contact such as a 'central ticket office' or detailed instructions on the FPN itself.
The emphasis on 'other' here suggests you feel badly done to because you got an FPN for an offence you were accused of while other vehicles did not. There could be many reasons for this, perhaps they weren't causing an obstruction or weren't there at the time of the police being there, I guess we'll never know, but either way someone else not being caught for committing an offence doesn't make it right for others to commit that offence - which at the time you were suspected of committing.
It doesn't have to be a 'restricted zone' for your vehicle to cause an obstruction. From what you've posted so far it appears you don't understand what you've actually received the FPN for, which may explain why you are feeling so badly done to.
Fair enough, if the gearbox failed then you're starting along the lines of possibly having grounds to appeal. However I would suggest that the note you waited until the next day to put in the car would have probably been better done on the same day to avoid this problem in the first place. You can imagine how many drivers may try such an excuse after being ticketed.
If the car was causing an obstruction then this is unreasonable of you and far too long to wait to have the obstruction removed from the road. There's a reason that it's an offence to cause an obstruction, it can be hazardous to others. Leaving it in a position that's causing an obstruction for this amount of time isn't fair on other road users and may even cause others a danger depending on the way it's been left.
Very reasonable of them, I know that cars that I have removed tend to cost £150 and £20 a day for standard cars. Looks like you got a good deal
And the police removing it at a cost to you is justified if it's causing an obstruction, especially when you state yourself that you cannot remove it in a reasonable amount of time.
That sounds like a considerably unreasonable response and one that suggests your tone was perhaps less than friendly and polite towards a person simply dealing with your enquiry and until that point not being involved with you or your car. So who was it that was really being unreasonable on the day?
Yes, how dare they. Did they not realise the world rotates around you, your Highness?:rolleyes:
If the car was causing an obstruction and you couldn't remove it in a reasonable amount of time then the police were doing their job and trying to make you take responsibility for your own vehicle in a public place.
So you got your own way after spitting out your dummy. Well done you. It seems the police were reasonable with you after all.
If the officer that issued you the FPN didn't believe the car was causing an obstruction then they wouldn't have issued it, if the police didn't believe the car was causing an obstruction and you weren't capable of removing it in a reasonable amount of time they wouldn't have considered having it towed. Think about it.....
They didn't do that. Read your own post and you'll see that you didn't receive an FPN for your car 'packing up', the reason for receiving the FPN is there in your own words! This may surprise you, but even cars with tax, MOT and insurance can be used in a way that is considered an offence :eek:
They don't in general. There may be the odd bad apple, in very small numbers, who are normally quickly dealt with and you do get the odd moron who will bad mouth the police but they tend to have their own agenda. Offenders tend to dislike the police and those who have been caught doing wrong and cannot take resposniblity for their own actions tend to dislike the police too, but on the whole the general thought about the police is a positive one when you're out on the streets dealing with people.
As I recall, I hadn't registered my car as SORN or seen the need to do so, as I knew it was parked on 'my land'.
It seemed no attempt had been made to trace or contact me, and I initally reported the car to the police as stolen when I found it had vanished.
The council made claims along the lines of 'they treat car parks as public areas' and were within their rights to treat my car as 'abandoned' by removing it and later charging me for its return.
They only backed down and returned my car for free and apologised, when I took it higher up the council chain and made it clear I had contacted the local press, who indeed showed interest in covering it.
Edit:
The farce came back to haunt me some time later, when I was stopped one night by the police, who had spotted my car as an outstanding stolen vehicle. I think I had informed the local police when I had initially discovered it had not been stolen, but this had gone unrecorded.
Just curious, are you a PCSO or PC?
Re the SORN, you'd certainly be excepted to register SORN in the case you describe. The clues in the name, Statutory Off Road Noticifcation. So it seems that although the council were wrong in their actions, you were also not fully complying with the rules in relation to your car.
Glad it all got sorted though.
You can't categorically state he was wrong on all three counts. Unfortunately he is totally correct on all 3 counts in terms of public perception of the police and other enforcement officials, even if it isn't actually the case.
That's complete rubbish. As well as other roles, the police are there to deal with crime and criminals. To state otherwise is just a tad silly, which makes it a fair point to state that it's a wrong statement.
Again, rubbish and again wrong. This is often the kind of statement you'd find from someone who's been caught committing an offence, say speeding or parking, and feels badly done to.
This is about as wrong as it gets. Catching a burglar in the act is a serious bonus. For a start it's rewarding to catch someone doing sort of despicable crime, it's normally something supervision are really keen on - especially with burglary offences being a priority in many parts of the country, and they're normally adrenaline filled or interesting jobs. So again - wrong.
So yes, I can say they are wrong on all 3 points. I am speaking from experience, they are not.
Again I don't agree. As someone doing the job and working the 'front line' in constant contact with the public I'll admit there are a few who may feel as the above, but the majority who I come in to contact with don't. So to state it's the public perception is incorrect as it seems to be a minority perception at the most. And a perception by a few doesn't make it fact and doesn't change the statements from being wrong, which they are.
So you where, in fact, commiting an offence!
it seems a very harsh penalty to have been given, yes technically you have commited an offence but realistically if your not changing the disks over at exactly midnight OR displaying BOTH disks to cover your own back then your always going to end up comitting an offence.
Given you had the tax disk and they got you at 8.10am on the 1st of the month I would argue that you fully intended on replacing it as soon as you went to work on the 1st which is a completely reasonable thing to say and I would guess 99% of road users do exactly that (myself included).
Guess an appeal outcome would be more dependant on who was judging it tho.
good look and i hope you do win an appeal in the name of 'being human'
Well, how else are the council going to pay for the trams?
;-)
I dunno about road tax but I got a parking ticket in Edinburgh from one of these jobsworths, failure to display my parking paid thing - it was a wet day and the window was steamed up and the sticky on the ticket was rubbish and it fell off.
They sent me all photos of my car etc. as 'proof' I had failed to display the parking ticket.
I appealed (contrary to popular opinion, the 'fine doubles if you don't pay quickly' counter goes ON HOLD during an appeal, because otherwise it would be grossly unfair). I sent them photocopies of my paid ticket, and an explanation, and apology.
They cancelled the fine, but said it was a 'gesture of goodwill', and legally they didn't have to, it wasn't up to them to make sure their tickets were sticky enough in the wet.
It's worth appealing anyways, just for the sheer bloody-mindedness of causing them some additional admin after being such a bunch of chancers going round on 1st month at 8am.
I am/was under the belief anyway that a vehicle parked on private land doesn't require a SORN. It appears this is not the case and presumably I have never fully understood SORN requirements.
Thanks for that link Migster, I found it a very useful place for information and will remember it it future for all sorts of topics!
Just to let you all know I have sent off my request for cancellation of the FPN and will report back on the outcome when I hear something.
Thank you all for your comments and advice, hopefully other people will find it helpful should they search DS with a similar question.
Cheers
I would certainly appeal it. The 5 days grace must be a new thing because 2 years ago (I get my tax disc online) my disc didn't arrive in the post in time. I rang the helpline number expecting them to say I would be fine to drive on my old one until the new one turned up given that I had bought it online as soon as the notice had come through and it wasn't my fault. But nope they told me I'd be illegal and I couldn't drive my car. I had to leave it on the drive for 3 days (when the new one turned up) presumably if I didn't have a drive so it was on the road they would possibly have fined me.
Traffic Wardens have nothing to do with the council - they are employed by the police. (The police force badge on their uniforms and the word "police" on it should give some clue to this.)
Council Parking Enforcement officers have nothing to do with tax discs - VED is enforced by the police and DVLA. Parking enforce staff only deal with decriminalised parking issues, not other traffic offences.
I cant believe that we still have to p*$$ around sticking little circular discs in our cars. This is what databases were designed for, the Police have full access to this via mobile technologies. Theres a great opportunity to cut some carbon emmissions here by not having to print and then post out tax discs....
Perhaps you're right, however they do still have their uses. If someone steals or clones number plates of example, it's not always possible to get their hands on the tax disk and it's a good way to spot a dodgy car. And it's also easier for officers to check tax disks when not using things such as ANPR. If you were to talk down the street and see an out of date tax disk, or not tax disk, on a car it stands out and you start to question it. However if they were no longer displayed and you weren't using ANPR you'd probably find a lot more get away with these offences because there's no way you'd be checking every single car in a row on a busy street.
So I'd suggest, for now, tax disks still have their place but perhaps it would be better to look at a tax and insurance disk or similar idea?
A large number of off-topic and disrespectful posts have been removed from this thread. If you see these in future, please alert them and do not respond to them.
Thanks