Its frightening actually how that has happened the far right will emerge now with huge support
That's what I'm finding a bit scary.
I'm also hearing lots, and I mean lots and lots, more anti Europe sentiments from people who would've been vaguely pro before this badly handled mess. I've a feeling that this is a massive issue and it will go a long way to making up people's minds.
I'm also hearing lots, and I mean lots and lots, more anti Europe sentiments from people who would've been vaguely pro before this badly handled mess. I've a feeling that this is a massive issue and it will go a long way to making up people's minds.
I don't see why it's so scary. In fact, the alternatives, as we have seen, are far more dangerous and detrimental to our country, and her people.
Disgusting beyond belief that women in a free secular state are told how to dress.
Yes it is Nancy. And it seems no one is going to tell them to pack it in- instead lone women must put up with assaults in the camps, and existing German women are expected to tread carefully.
The article (not surprisingly being the Daily Mail) is full of stories of what are clearly economic migrants, including whole families who have left places like Karachi, as well as the young men.
They should all be deported of course but there is an obvious danger when you dump loads of young blokes back where they they may have started. Many of the grasping push-everyone-back-in the queue economic migrants came through envy of housing, wages and social care on the West. They've decided they WILL have a slice.
Their envy was strong enough to make them track 1000s of miles in cases. They should all be sent home, but I wonder in how many of these cases the deported hotheads' envy will turn to bitter anger. We will probably end up creating more potential terrorists.
What a mess.>:(
I'm also hearing lots, and I mean lots and lots, more anti Europe sentiments from people who would've been vaguely pro before this badly handled mess. I've a feeling that this is a massive issue and it will go a long way to making up people's minds.
Which is a shame, as the UK already have the opt-outs to resist being swept up in this - and the situation will force the re-think of the free-movement laws that sit at the heart of many people's opposition to the EU. I am biaised, as I support reform of Europe rather than leaving it - moving back to our involvement being about trade (and some other useful things, such as shared scientific & research endeavours) but I do hope that people will not base their vote solely on this issue, but use it as a lever to get rid of the useless bureaucracy and (evidently) slothlike decision process - and return us to a place where Europe works together as a group of reasonable Westphalian nations.
Which is a shame, as the UK already have the opt-outs to resist being swept up in this - and the situation will force the re-think of the free-movement laws that sit at the heart of many people's opposition to the EU. I am biaised, as I support reform of Europe rather than leaving it - moving back to our involvement being about trade (and some other useful things, such as shared scientific & research endeavours) but I do hope that people will not base their vote solely on this issue, but use it as a lever to get rid of the useless bureaucracy and (evidently) slothlike decision process - and return us to a place where Europe works together as a group of reasonable Westphalian nations.
I dont think Merkel would know the meaning of Westphalian state nations even if it jumped up and bit her on the bum . She seems to think we may all rule our own lands but only if it suits German ecomomy
Which is a shame, as the UK already have the opt-outs to resist being swept up in this - and the situation will force the re-think of the free-movement laws that sit at the heart of many people's opposition to the EU. I am biaised, as I support reform of Europe rather than leaving it - moving back to our involvement being about trade (and some other useful things, such as shared scientific & research endeavours) but I do hope that people will not base their vote solely on this issue, but use it as a lever to get rid of the useless bureaucracy and (evidently) slothlike decision process - and return us to a place where Europe works together as a group of reasonable Westphalian nations.
Before all this, I was in the 'reform' camp too. However, as the entire situation now appears to revolve around saving Merkel's face & career, to the detriment of pretty much every EU country & inhabitants (including Germans), I'm now in the 'out' camp.
Croatia: Border re-opens after dispute with Serbia Footage shows vehicles crossing the checkpoint at Tovarnik on Saturday after the border between Serbia and Croatia was re-opened on Friday, followings a week of border disputes regarding the flow of refugees entering the countries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrIQ4gOBlw
A hint here - Merkel said to her Parliament at the beginning of September : “They need help to learn German, and they should find a job quickly. Many of them will become new citizens of our country.” She added: “If we do it well, this will bring more opportunities than risks.”
I saw read a report in a German paper (translated) the other day which touched on the fact that 35% of Muslim immigrants in Germany have multiple wives, the first one is supported by the husband and subsequent ones by the tax payer as single parents, each one having a flat of her own, the main point was though that although the children spoke German the parents rarely did, one couple had been in Germany for 24 years and still knew no German. If other countries including Britain and France are anything to go by the majority do not intergrate hardly at all, they don't have to, they have all they need within 'areas' for want of a better word ghettos,it doesn't look any different in Germany, so why do they think things will suddenly change?
There's a report by Adair Turner that looks into whether a fall in population is actually such a bad thing, I posted it earlier.
Italian police attacks refugees at the French border - 25th of September 2015 25th of September 2015. At sunset, refugees and activists gathered at the French border to protest against its closure.
Italian police attacks refugees at the French border - 25th of September 2015 25th of September 2015. At sunset, refugees and activists gathered at the French border to protest against its closure.
Syrian Refugees in Denmark Protest for Reunion Visas Over 1,000 Syrian refugees in Denmark have come to Copenhagen to protest at the immigration office in the hope of getting the Danish government to speed up the processing of reunion visa applications so that their relatives can join them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqplyPstjHg
Syrian Refugees in Denmark Protest for Reunion Visas Over 1,000 Syrian refugees in Denmark have come to Copenhagen to protest at the immigration office in the hope of getting the Danish government to speed up the processing of reunion visa applications so that their relatives can join them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqplyPstjHg
At least they are orderly and peaceful . I will give them that
As I've said before, if you let the third world into your country then your country becomes the third world.
I am more inclined to think that if you acquiesce to customs, attitude and mind-sets which are contrary to your culture or promoting to a better well-being of people, then your country becomes like-minded. And I'll put *Third World* in asterisks because some people of the *First World* can also be rather backward in their understanding/ignorance of what takes place and is taking place in so-called *Third World* countries. For example, many people in the *Third* world are speaking out (sometimes at the point of their deaths) against many of the issues and bad practices which are still unconsciously practised here in the *First* world, issues and practices which are just as hard to grapple, irradiate or make sense of here as they are over there: homophobia, sexism, sexual & gender politics, poverty, corruption (over here, you have to look at the way politicians, big business, the media operate and the way relationships are formed within that tripartite circle).
This isn't about what Germany has now though, but what Germany will have too many of in twenty years... old people. The adults coming to Germany now will find a range of work after whatever training they need (and those currently travelling to Europe are most likely to be educated or skilled, because they had the money to pay smugglers) - but they are not what Germany are really welcoming... it is the children (and the young people who will have more children) - the ones who will go to German schools and grow up speaking German and being trained in Germany.
I think the reason this demographic "excuse" is being touted is because rational, self important people don't want to admit that Merkal, who has been throwing her weight around Europe for years, is an emperor with no clothes.
And what is Germany going to do with the hundreds of thousands who won't go along with the "new Germans" idea?
Gas ovens?
I said weeks ago, the mentality on display is the same as the Nazi mentality, people aren't individuals, they are merely "units" to be moved around and used.
The whole "nice Germany" schtick was no different from the mass rallies Hitler organised and the response was just as mindless and just as extreme.
And the complete silencing of any opposition was just as sinister as anything in the thirties.
Before all this, I was in the 'reform' camp too. However, as the entire situation now appears to revolve around saving Merkel's face & career, to the detriment of pretty much every EU country & inhabitants (including Germans), I'm now in the 'out' camp.
I am in the 'wait and see' camp at the moment - my main issue is that I want to see what the 'Out' campaign are selling as an alternative rather than this issue. The delay in finding a common solution to the migrant crisis isn't actually something I was remotely surprised about, nor Germany's actions - both just reinforced my view that we need to use the EU differently, not that we should not be a member at all.
Just to move away from EU for the moment, I just read this new paper from RUSI about the roots of the issue and the military options moving forward in the area. It is a very readable and interesting paper.
So if the projection is that Germany will have too many old people in 20 years time, how widespread is this? I know we that our demographic pyramid in the UK is somewhat divergent from the ideal but I'm not sure of the specifics - certainly the 20-years bit that would imply that anybody over 45-50 is effectively surplus to requirement. If we get rid of them, we don't have to import all these other people...
So if the projection is that Germany will have too many old people in 20 years time, how widespread is this? I know we that our demographic pyramid in the UK is somewhat divergent from the ideal but I'm not sure of the specifics - certainly the 20-years bit that would imply that anybody over 45-50 is effectively surplus to requirement. If we get rid of them, we don't have to import all these other people...
Not sold on the demographic argument concerning Germany. Its deficit is 20% less than GDP and the forecasted increase in cost for the elderly population would only increase its spending by 5%. which would still leave it in a better position than the UK.
So if the projection is that Germany will have too many old people in 20 years time, how widespread is this? I know we that our demographic pyramid in the UK is somewhat divergent from the ideal but I'm not sure of the specifics - certainly the 20-years bit that would imply that anybody over 45-50 is effectively surplus to requirement. If we get rid of them, we don't have to import all these other people...
edit: I'm in that 'surplus' bracket too :eek:
They are also assuming that many of those in that age bracket will be looking to retire on 20 years times. It is a huge assumption to make, given the social trends governments like to pick and choose from and be selective over to suit their agenda. We are living longer (unless a government or nature decide to unlease a plague upon us *"conspiracy" theory alert*); the pensions we pay money into might be of better worth than the money we'll eventually get out of it; mortgage may still need to paid off - it may be the only decent asset we have left to pass onto any children who will probably most likely have nothing. A lot people looking to retire in or around the same time their parents did might not be able to do so. So jobs, even decent goodish paying jobs simply to live and to pay down debts, may be even scarcer. Western governments overtime will be looking (or would have) to pare down the welfare state, either to privatise aspects of it or scrap it altogether.
20 years seems a long time. But when unexpected changes we think wouldn't happen actually takes place it, 20 years is actually a very short time.
More and more arriving in Lesbos this morning. Migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh quite openly admitting they have come for a better life. If they get to Germany they will not be able to send them back as apparently the smugglers kept their passports and documents (they threw them overboard).
As soon as Mekel opened the floodgates it was obvious this would happen. She has destroyed her credibility.
Before all this, I was in the 'reform' camp too. However, as the entire situation now appears to revolve around saving Merkel's face & career, to the detriment of pretty much every EU country & inhabitants (including Germans), I'm now in the 'out' camp.
That's exactly what I'm coming across when I chat to people about this. Which is a shame as far as I'm concerned (I see myself as a European more than anything else and have massively enjoyed the free movement aspect of it) but I also kind of get why some people look at it all and think f*ck it, we're better off out of it. The facts may say otherwise (and I say 'may' on purpose) but I think for many this will be a decision based on emotions.
Comments
That's what I'm finding a bit scary.
I'm also hearing lots, and I mean lots and lots, more anti Europe sentiments from people who would've been vaguely pro before this badly handled mess. I've a feeling that this is a massive issue and it will go a long way to making up people's minds.
I don't see why it's so scary. In fact, the alternatives, as we have seen, are far more dangerous and detrimental to our country, and her people.
Yes it is Nancy. And it seems no one is going to tell them to pack it in- instead lone women must put up with assaults in the camps, and existing German women are expected to tread carefully.
The article (not surprisingly being the Daily Mail) is full of stories of what are clearly economic migrants, including whole families who have left places like Karachi, as well as the young men.
They should all be deported of course but there is an obvious danger when you dump loads of young blokes back where they they may have started. Many of the grasping push-everyone-back-in the queue economic migrants came through envy of housing, wages and social care on the West. They've decided they WILL have a slice.
Their envy was strong enough to make them track 1000s of miles in cases. They should all be sent home, but I wonder in how many of these cases the deported hotheads' envy will turn to bitter anger. We will probably end up creating more potential terrorists.
What a mess.>:(
Which is a shame, as the UK already have the opt-outs to resist being swept up in this - and the situation will force the re-think of the free-movement laws that sit at the heart of many people's opposition to the EU. I am biaised, as I support reform of Europe rather than leaving it - moving back to our involvement being about trade (and some other useful things, such as shared scientific & research endeavours) but I do hope that people will not base their vote solely on this issue, but use it as a lever to get rid of the useless bureaucracy and (evidently) slothlike decision process - and return us to a place where Europe works together as a group of reasonable Westphalian nations.
I dont think Merkel would know the meaning of Westphalian state nations even if it jumped up and bit her on the bum . She seems to think we may all rule our own lands but only if it suits German ecomomy
Before all this, I was in the 'reform' camp too. However, as the entire situation now appears to revolve around saving Merkel's face & career, to the detriment of pretty much every EU country & inhabitants (including Germans), I'm now in the 'out' camp.
They let Muslims in; now they will accept Muslim customs. Women's rights will be sacrificed as Muslims don't recognise them.
Footage shows vehicles crossing the checkpoint at Tovarnik on Saturday after the border between Serbia and Croatia was re-opened on Friday, followings a week of border disputes regarding the flow of refugees entering the countries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrIQ4gOBlw
I saw read a report in a German paper (translated) the other day which touched on the fact that 35% of Muslim immigrants in Germany have multiple wives, the first one is supported by the husband and subsequent ones by the tax payer as single parents, each one having a flat of her own, the main point was though that although the children spoke German the parents rarely did, one couple had been in Germany for 24 years and still knew no German. If other countries including Britain and France are anything to go by the majority do not intergrate hardly at all, they don't have to, they have all they need within 'areas' for want of a better word ghettos,it doesn't look any different in Germany, so why do they think things will suddenly change?
There's a report by Adair Turner that looks into whether a fall in population is actually such a bad thing, I posted it earlier.
25th of September 2015. At sunset, refugees and activists gathered at the French border to protest against its closure.
The Italian riot police attacked while the refugees and activists were going back to the No Border camp.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJ282f2Msk
Or Italian police try to gain control of their own lands and diffuse a situation ?
As I've said before, if you let the third world into your country then your country becomes the third world.
Over 1,000 Syrian refugees in Denmark have come to Copenhagen to protest at the immigration office in the hope of getting the Danish government to speed up the processing of reunion visa applications so that their relatives can join them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqplyPstjHg
At least they are orderly and peaceful . I will give them that
Yes, they're asking rather than demanding.
I am more inclined to think that if you acquiesce to customs, attitude and mind-sets which are contrary to your culture or promoting to a better well-being of people, then your country becomes like-minded. And I'll put *Third World* in asterisks because some people of the *First World* can also be rather backward in their understanding/ignorance of what takes place and is taking place in so-called *Third World* countries. For example, many people in the *Third* world are speaking out (sometimes at the point of their deaths) against many of the issues and bad practices which are still unconsciously practised here in the *First* world, issues and practices which are just as hard to grapple, irradiate or make sense of here as they are over there: homophobia, sexism, sexual & gender politics, poverty, corruption (over here, you have to look at the way politicians, big business, the media operate and the way relationships are formed within that tripartite circle).
I think the reason this demographic "excuse" is being touted is because rational, self important people don't want to admit that Merkal, who has been throwing her weight around Europe for years, is an emperor with no clothes.
And what is Germany going to do with the hundreds of thousands who won't go along with the "new Germans" idea?
Gas ovens?
I said weeks ago, the mentality on display is the same as the Nazi mentality, people aren't individuals, they are merely "units" to be moved around and used.
The whole "nice Germany" schtick was no different from the mass rallies Hitler organised and the response was just as mindless and just as extreme.
And the complete silencing of any opposition was just as sinister as anything in the thirties.
I am in the 'wait and see' camp at the moment - my main issue is that I want to see what the 'Out' campaign are selling as an alternative rather than this issue. The delay in finding a common solution to the migrant crisis isn't actually something I was remotely surprised about, nor Germany's actions - both just reinforced my view that we need to use the EU differently, not that we should not be a member at all.
https://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Countering-Isis-Regional-Implications.pdf
edit: I'm in that 'surplus' bracket too :eek:
We are not too badly off
http://blog.thomsonreuters.com/index.php/europes-ageing-population-graphic-of-the-day/
They are also assuming that many of those in that age bracket will be looking to retire on 20 years times. It is a huge assumption to make, given the social trends governments like to pick and choose from and be selective over to suit their agenda. We are living longer (unless a government or nature decide to unlease a plague upon us *"conspiracy" theory alert*); the pensions we pay money into might be of better worth than the money we'll eventually get out of it; mortgage may still need to paid off - it may be the only decent asset we have left to pass onto any children who will probably most likely have nothing. A lot people looking to retire in or around the same time their parents did might not be able to do so. So jobs, even decent goodish paying jobs simply to live and to pay down debts, may be even scarcer. Western governments overtime will be looking (or would have) to pare down the welfare state, either to privatise aspects of it or scrap it altogether.
20 years seems a long time. But when unexpected changes we think wouldn't happen actually takes place it, 20 years is actually a very short time.
As soon as Mekel opened the floodgates it was obvious this would happen. She has destroyed her credibility.
That's exactly what I'm coming across when I chat to people about this. Which is a shame as far as I'm concerned (I see myself as a European more than anything else and have massively enjoyed the free movement aspect of it) but I also kind of get why some people look at it all and think f*ck it, we're better off out of it. The facts may say otherwise (and I say 'may' on purpose) but I think for many this will be a decision based on emotions.