I think having Ken Dodd in a story might be classed as a Jump the Shark moment.
Yawn! Another hijacking of a thread to have a totally unjustified attack on one of this country's all time greats. Ken Dodd performed very well in Delta which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of other actors in various stories throughout Who's 50 years.
If we widen the definition to include any WTF moments that made me cringe, it has to be floating JesusDoctor having been transformed from Dobby by the power of hope or whatever it flippin was.
Is it possible that an episode could jump the shark? a writer? An actor? A story arc? of course.
Not really. That would be something different. Jumping the shark really requires a long term trend that can run out of steam - you can't jump the shark and then consider it un-jumped an episode later.
It is possible for a character to run out of steam, and for the writers to give up trying to write thoughtfully for them - this tends to end up as Flanderization, where the character descends into caricature, or some other way of forcing the character into another role.
For some, the invention of the Sixth Doctor (cartoon costume and unlikeable personality) would be a jarring indication that the show had run out of interesting ways to express the Doctor's personality, while for others they could point to a hundred-and-one different silly ideas (stunt casting, silly plot events, panto acting) that they would consider the start of a terminal decline. But even in the classic series, they somewhat managed to pull it back from the brink - often as a result of having the luxury of completely re-inventing the series every so often.
Forgive me but you haven't said what the 'Jump The Shark' moments were exactly? Not liking a certain Doctor, episode or era isn't 'Jumping The Shark' and a producer leaving the show certainly isn't.
As poor as The Twin Dilemma is I personally cant see anything that would constitute jumping the shark.
For me the show has such a wide premise, from deadly serious to the most ridiculous spectacle but I would be hard pushed to think of an actual 'Jump The Shark' moment in the shows entire history.
Could you elaborate further:)
Okay so to use the definition of Jump the Shark: used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, signalled by a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in an attempt to keep viewers' interest
For me it was post Horror of Fang Rock aka: The Invisible Enemy (the episode/ story). Here it was a change of direction in the show, away from the dark, gothic but totally enthralling nature of previous stories. The gimmick was obvious really: K9 and added to this trying to make it more "spacey" in general which was quite the thing in the mid to late 70's following Space 1999 and then Star Wars. It's interesting because a lot of these stories, like the one in question, Underworld and several other more recent stories of this time have "dated" a lot more than any Hinchcliffe story I can think of.
The next Jump the Shark moment was "The Twin Dilemma" (the episode/ story) and the introduction of a more agonistic Doctor as opposed to Davison's more passive "nice" Doctor, and a lot of unnecessary violence post this (the gimmick).
The final Jump the Shark moment was the first story of The 7th Doctor -The Time of the Rani. Maybe you want to argue this really wasn't one as it wasn't already doing well, but the fact a show is not performing well already doesn't necessarily mean it can not be such a moment. As the definition says, it is often a gimmick introduced or a change in format to try and recapture some lost magic or ratings (or both), often then its a sign of desperation, and I believe in this instance it was the case. More specifically: here it trying to use a comedian of limited acting ability to fulfil the role of Doctor combined with an awful, cheesy, supposedly cool opening sequence (which even looked bad back in 1987). Yes, the introduction of a new character or actor can result in a "jump the shark" moment, why could it not be?
So, there you go, there's my three examples explained. And as for the new series, I don't think this has happened (yet)
I try to concentrate on the positive rather then negative. However there were a few things durring S6 and S7. Lack of consequences for one. Amy and Rory were supposedly desperate to have their daughter back in their lives and wanted more children. Few episodes later they were fine with having no contact relationship with her and being unable to have anymore babies. 11's final thought of Amy as a little girl then an adult was sweet touching. However it could have been done better. If Rory or even Rory and River had been with her too. Hopefully we will have less moments of "what was that all about ?" in S8.:):p
Okay so to use the definition of Jump the Shark: used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, signalled by a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in an attempt to keep viewers' interest
For me it was post Horror of Fang Rock aka: The Invisible Enemy (the episode/ story). Here it was a change of direction in the show, away from the dark, gothic but totally enthralling nature of previous stories. The gimmick was obvious really: K9 and added to this trying to make it more "spacey" in general which was quite the thing in the mid to late 70's following Space 1999 and then Star Wars. It's interesting because a lot of these stories, like the one in question, Underworld and several other more recent stories of this time have "dated" a lot more than any Hinchcliffe story I can think of.
The next Jump the Shark moment was "The Twin Dilemma" (the episode/ story) and the introduction of a more agonistic Doctor as opposed to Davison's more passive "nice" Doctor, and a lot of unnecessary violence post this (the gimmick).
The final Jump the Shark moment was the first story of The 7th Doctor -The Time of the Rani. Maybe you want to argue this really wasn't one as it wasn't already doing well, but the fact a show is not performing well already doesn't necessarily mean it can not be such a moment. As the definition says, it is often a gimmick introduced or a change in format to try and recapture some lost magic or ratings (or both), often then its a sign of desperation, and I believe in this instance it was the case. More specifically: here it trying to use a comedian of limited acting ability to fulfil the role of Doctor combined with an awful, cheesy, supposedly cool opening sequence (which even looked bad back in 1987). Yes, the introduction of a new character or actor can result in a "jump the shark" moment, why could it not be?
So, there you go, there's my three examples explained. And as for the new series, I don't think this has happened (yet)
Kamelion in The King's Demons had the potential to be a shark-jumping plot device. My heart sank when the shape-shifting android joined the TARDIS crew, as it seemed like way too much of a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
Fortunately, the prop was too cumbersome for regular use. So he didn't appear again until Planet of Fire.
Okay so to use the definition of Jump the Shark: used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, signalled by a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in an attempt to keep viewers' interest
*snip*
In order:
Sly and Mel speak to each other for the first time
Time and the Rani
Spoons/Kate O'Mara pretending to be Bonnie Langford/ Sly tripping over his own feet.
Nuff said.
The only worse scene I think was in Tennants last episode where he throws a mar-mar over having to save Wilf. Sly at his most slapstick was twice the Doctor that Tennant was at that moment.
If we widen the definition to include any WTF moments that made me cringe, it has to be floating JesusDoctor having been transformed from Dobby by the power of hope or whatever it flippin was.
I've just watched that, in Last of the Time Lords, for the first time (am now working my way through 'Nu Who' on sites like tvids and Dailymotion, after some years of resistance). Mystical, sentimental, mumbo-jumbo at the expense of practical, comprehensible resolution-something 'Nu Who' seems to suffer from regularly.
I'm not sure it's possible to jump the shark three times. Either it did, or it didn't.
You could argue this, yep -a show can only do this once & it is then in "terminal decline". If this was the case, then I'd say it hasn't happened then (or it did once for the original series resulting in the cancellation). If so, then The Invisible Enemy wasn't it and more likely it was at the time of The 6th Doctor or 7th.
As per my opening gambit, I think Who is quite unique as it can change/ adapt so much, for instance: a complete change of main actor and personality, which is one of the great things about the show. The changes that JNT introduced completely reinvigorated it (season 18/ 19 in particular) post this. You could argue this too with Barry Letts, colour, a faster pace and an Earth bound 3rd Doctor. I'm not sure if there's another show I can think of, where this happened. It would have to be one of quite a long run for starters.
"Battlestar Galactica"(?) hmm, although a vast improvement, it was a completely new show. Besides was there ever a Jump the shark moment with the original series? Some might say as soon as it went to air in the late 70's or from the big screen.
You could argue this, yep -a show can only do this once & it is then in "terminal decline". If this was the case, then I'd say it hasn't happened then (or it did once for the original series resulting in the cancellation).
Except the last season was pretty good. What did it do to JTS? Which scene?
I honestly think the majority of people who talk about Jumping The Shark have no clue what it means. Or maybe cos I'm older it's changed what it means since it was coined.
Except the last season was pretty good. What did it do to JTS? Which scene?
I honestly think the majority of people who talk about Jumping The Shark have no clue what it means. Or maybe cos I'm older it's changed what it means since it was coined.
To be fair, the original "shark jump" occurred near the start of Happy Days' fifth season. The series survived for eleven seasons in total. So far more episodes were produced after that point than there had been beforehand.
Of course some good episodes may still have come after the "jump the shark" moment. The fact that someone sees McCoy's arrival as Doctor Who's JTS isn't somehow null and void, just because you thought the last season (two years later) was good.
Doctor Who is different every story - it cannot really 'jump the shark' can it?
The only instance is (for me) when they stopped him travelling through space and time for almost 3 years! They stuck him on Earth, and it was more 'Quatermass' than DW.
But it was soon jumped 'off the shark' and returned to normal!!
Comments
Yawn! Another hijacking of a thread to have a totally unjustified attack on one of this country's all time greats. Ken Dodd performed very well in Delta which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of other actors in various stories throughout Who's 50 years.
Not really. That would be something different. Jumping the shark really requires a long term trend that can run out of steam - you can't jump the shark and then consider it un-jumped an episode later.
It is possible for a character to run out of steam, and for the writers to give up trying to write thoughtfully for them - this tends to end up as Flanderization, where the character descends into caricature, or some other way of forcing the character into another role.
For some, the invention of the Sixth Doctor (cartoon costume and unlikeable personality) would be a jarring indication that the show had run out of interesting ways to express the Doctor's personality, while for others they could point to a hundred-and-one different silly ideas (stunt casting, silly plot events, panto acting) that they would consider the start of a terminal decline. But even in the classic series, they somewhat managed to pull it back from the brink - often as a result of having the luxury of completely re-inventing the series every so often.
Okay so to use the definition of Jump the Shark:
used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, signalled by a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in an attempt to keep viewers' interest
For me it was post Horror of Fang Rock aka: The Invisible Enemy (the episode/ story). Here it was a change of direction in the show, away from the dark, gothic but totally enthralling nature of previous stories. The gimmick was obvious really: K9 and added to this trying to make it more "spacey" in general which was quite the thing in the mid to late 70's following Space 1999 and then Star Wars. It's interesting because a lot of these stories, like the one in question, Underworld and several other more recent stories of this time have "dated" a lot more than any Hinchcliffe story I can think of.
The next Jump the Shark moment was "The Twin Dilemma" (the episode/ story) and the introduction of a more agonistic Doctor as opposed to Davison's more passive "nice" Doctor, and a lot of unnecessary violence post this (the gimmick).
The final Jump the Shark moment was the first story of The 7th Doctor -The Time of the Rani. Maybe you want to argue this really wasn't one as it wasn't already doing well, but the fact a show is not performing well already doesn't necessarily mean it can not be such a moment. As the definition says, it is often a gimmick introduced or a change in format to try and recapture some lost magic or ratings (or both), often then its a sign of desperation, and I believe in this instance it was the case. More specifically: here it trying to use a comedian of limited acting ability to fulfil the role of Doctor combined with an awful, cheesy, supposedly cool opening sequence (which even looked bad back in 1987). Yes, the introduction of a new character or actor can result in a "jump the shark" moment, why could it not be?
So, there you go, there's my three examples explained. And as for the new series, I don't think this has happened (yet)
Fortunately, the prop was too cumbersome for regular use. So he didn't appear again until Planet of Fire.
In order:
Sly and Mel speak to each other for the first time
Time and the Rani
Spoons/Kate O'Mara pretending to be Bonnie Langford/ Sly tripping over his own feet.
Nuff said.
The only worse scene I think was in Tennants last episode where he throws a mar-mar over having to save Wilf. Sly at his most slapstick was twice the Doctor that Tennant was at that moment.
I've just watched that, in Last of the Time Lords, for the first time (am now working my way through 'Nu Who' on sites like tvids and Dailymotion, after some years of resistance). Mystical, sentimental, mumbo-jumbo at the expense of practical, comprehensible resolution-something 'Nu Who' seems to suffer from regularly.
You could argue this, yep -a show can only do this once & it is then in "terminal decline". If this was the case, then I'd say it hasn't happened then (or it did once for the original series resulting in the cancellation). If so, then The Invisible Enemy wasn't it and more likely it was at the time of The 6th Doctor or 7th.
As per my opening gambit, I think Who is quite unique as it can change/ adapt so much, for instance: a complete change of main actor and personality, which is one of the great things about the show. The changes that JNT introduced completely reinvigorated it (season 18/ 19 in particular) post this. You could argue this too with Barry Letts, colour, a faster pace and an Earth bound 3rd Doctor. I'm not sure if there's another show I can think of, where this happened. It would have to be one of quite a long run for starters.
"Battlestar Galactica"(?) hmm, although a vast improvement, it was a completely new show. Besides was there ever a Jump the shark moment with the original series? Some might say as soon as it went to air in the late 70's or from the big screen.
Except the last season was pretty good. What did it do to JTS? Which scene?
I honestly think the majority of people who talk about Jumping The Shark have no clue what it means. Or maybe cos I'm older it's changed what it means since it was coined.
Of course some good episodes may still have come after the "jump the shark" moment. The fact that someone sees McCoy's arrival as Doctor Who's JTS isn't somehow null and void, just because you thought the last season (two years later) was good.
The only instance is (for me) when they stopped him travelling through space and time for almost 3 years! They stuck him on Earth, and it was more 'Quatermass' than DW.
But it was soon jumped 'off the shark' and returned to normal!!