Ok, thanks anyway. What you have said has been helpful to me. I can see that 'spiritual' was probably the wrong word for me to use to someone like yourself.
For me a spiritual experience would mean a supernatural experience. I'm now wondering if I possibly had what could be termed a 'natural' (though awesome) experience - if consciousness can be conscious of its source on some level. I shall wonder some more.
On the plus side I suspect you're too much of a gentleman to say I'm talking bollocks
Were you in on 'The Overview Effect' part of a recent discussion? Istr you were, but I wanted to say; that really helped me understand (by exaggeration really) how experiences of that nature can be mind blowing, in the nicest possible way of using that expression. Sagan's blue dot thing was similarly enlightening for me... Earth-rise photos etc....
Apologies if this is o/t but this was the first religion based topic I saw..
I've been thinking about going to church lately ..
I noticed that my local church ( the one I was christened in) has changed from church of England to Catholic ..how is this possible? It's been there since the early 19th century and suddenly it's a catholic church? Were the C of E just renting it ..have they sold it to the Catholics?
It appears to have had a makeover too .. my mum does always say there is money in the Catholic church ..
Apologies if this is o/t but this was the first religion based topic I saw..
I've been thinking about going to church lately ..
I noticed that my local church ( the one I was christened in) has changed from church of England to Catholic ..how is this possible? It's been there since the early 19th century and suddenly it's a catholic church? Were the C of E just renting it ..have they sold it to the Catholics?
It appears to have had a makeover too .. my mum does always say there is money in the Catholic church ..
Hi! Think your Mum's right.;-) No idea about the buying and selling of Churches;-)
Whatever they are claimed to be analogous to. And I really don't care if I occasionally end a sentence with a preposition. Up with some things, I will not put. >:(
A programmed device could mimic emotion and possibly all human functions to the extent that it would be a p-zombie. It could never experience anything like we do. Mainly because we can't even describe our experiences in terms of anything other than other experiences. If we can't even adequately say what consciousness is like - I don't see how we'll be able to fit it to something else.
How do you know? That's basically an argument from incredulity.
I think some people seriously over-estimate consciousness. I think a lot of is, for want of a better word, an illusion. I don't see emotions as more than a means to an end; a response to a stimulus.
If a p-zombie is indistinguishable from a human, then consciousness has been successfully emulated, IMO. I can't tell whether you actually have subjective experiences like I do never mind something which can perfectly emulate a human.
I should also add that this is of course just speculation and I could be completely and utterly wrong.
Regardless of whether consciousness can be successfully emulated, I think it's evident that it is created in the brain, by the brain.
Apologies if this is o/t but this was the first religion based topic I saw..
I've been thinking about going to church lately ..
I noticed that my local church ( the one I was christened in) has changed from church of England to Catholic ..how is this possible? It's been there since the early 19th century and suddenly it's a catholic church? Were the C of E just renting it ..have they sold it to the Catholics?
It appears to have had a makeover too .. my mum does always say there is money in the Catholic church ..
I can't say I've ever heard about something like that before.
Does the church have a website? Maybe it says something on there about it if it does.
ETA: It hasn't become Anglo-Catholic has it? As that would still be the C of E.
Were you in on 'The Overview Effect' part of a recent discussion? Istr you were, but I wanted to say; that really helped me understand (by exaggeration really) how experiences of that nature can be mind blowing, in the nicest possible way of using that expression. Sagan's blue dot thing was similarly enlightening for me... Earth-rise photos etc....
Yes I was, and it blew my mind too. First time I'd seen in writing a description of the 'spiritual' experience I believe I had - though I imagine theirs must have been a hundred times more powerful. It certainly got me thinking as to the cause of it.
I ordered the book (The Overview Effect) from the US as I couldn't get it here. Am reading it at the moment :cool:
I can't say I've ever heard about something like that before.
Does the church have a website? Maybe it says something on there about it if it does.
ETA: It hasn't become Anglo-Catholic has it? As that would still be the C of E.
I've looked it up ,yes It does says Anglo-Catholic .Which I looked up and totally confused me .. Anglican but believing in elements of Catholicism?? Does that mean its just a church that wants everyone to turn up? a church that likes a bit of both worlds?! An AC/DC church?
I'm afraid my religious education isn't great. I'd never heard of Anglo-Catholics before today. I just want somewhere peaceful to go and think for someone reason I got the idea of the local church. Unfortunately you can't just got sit in church for a bit of salvation for want of a better word ,there all locked up unless it's a mass.
I've looked it up ,yes It does says Anglo-Catholic .Which I looked up and totally confused me .. Anglican but believing in elements of Catholicism?? Does that mean its just a church that wants everyone to turn up? a church that likes a bit of both worlds?! An AC/DC church?
I'm afraid my religious education isn't great. I'd never heard of Anglo-Catholics before today. I just want somewhere peaceful to go and think for someone reason I got the idea of the local church. Unfortunately you can't just got sit in church for a bit of salvation for want of a better word ,there all locked up unless it's a mass.
BIB - Not really.
The C of E is a broad Church which includes high and low churches within it.
ETA: Sadly some churches can't leave their doors open these days, for various reasons. Do you live in a town or a village or a city? (Sorry if I'm being nosey lol) It's just that I find churches in cities (well, my nearest one anyway) are usually open all day for people who wish to go and sit in the peace and quiet for a while, light candles etc. like you would like to do.
ETA: Sadly some churches can't leave their doors open these days, for various reasons. Do you live in a town or a village or a city? (Sorry if I'm being nosey lol) It's just that I find churches in cities (well, my nearest one anyway) are usually open all day for people who wish to go and sit in the peace and quiet for a while, light candles etc. like you would like to do.
Cathedrals are also usually open every day, too.
Thanks for the info .It's all a tad confusing ,the church calls itself "high church". It's in a town but not in the centre,right in the residential part that was once a village if that makes sense!
Your right about cathedrals. You can just wander in and have a look , always very cold though! ;-)
How do you know? That's basically an argument from incredulity.
It rather is, without the proviso after it.
Which would be harder. To have it experience exactly as you do? Or as someone else does?
I think some people seriously over-estimate consciousness. I think a lot of is, for want of a better word, an illusion. I don't see emotions as more than a means to an end; a response to a stimulus.
I agree. It's merely the very finest land based awareness with nothing much to do imho.
If a p-zombie is indistinguishable from a human, then consciousness has been successfully emulated, IMO. I can't tell whether you actually have subjective experiences like I do never mind something which can perfectly emulate a human.
I think I agree, except it would only be emulation. It would only appear to be human and it would only be the result of clever engineering which makes it appear that way. Which may mean it will have greater difficulty dealing with unforeseen circumstances than we do. Future proofing is hard engineering.
John declared "In the beginning was the Word". How could they (anyone) think otherwise with no understanding of how something as complex as the language they all used evolved over hundreds of thousands of years? Inferring its existence before God is interesting. Almost suggests they imagined it as an integral part of existence. That which enables communication between God and its creation, and between people and peoples.
I blame the kids. Some bright kid asks - so who invented talking?
Must've been really boring having brains pretty much the same as ours, but not much good stuff to fill 'em with.
I also blame the spin. Come back with me, if you will, to a time when the very first creature evolved the ability to see. It would have had a whale of a time, for a few hours, until it got dark. It would probably have thought sh.. I've gone blind already.
If it survived the first night, and a few more, it might get the hang of it and eventually feel safe enough to disengage its sense of sight over night. Wasn't long after that it evolved an ear to hear if it needs to wake up and scarper instead of dreaming of food and sex and etc..
^^ May not be true.
Apologies to MrQuike. I will try harder to be calmer.
Perhaps some defining qualities of consciousness, which may help differentiate between p-zombie and real thing, are ego and species-ism (in the sense of preference for it's kind). A strong sense of self (and kind) importance, if programmed, may be difficult to reconcile with a servile attitude to, and absolute respect for creators.
Not the sort of balance you can get right at first attempt. A robot in full blown vacillation is not a pretty sight.
Consciousness is simply what happens when the model of the world that a brain uses for predictions includes a model of the creature whose brain it is.
A cat has to model what its prey might do. Humans model what other humans might do because we are social animals. When you model yourself you're conscious of yourself, that's what the word means.
I've looked it up ,yes It does says Anglo-Catholic .Which I looked up and totally confused me .. Anglican but believing in elements of Catholicism?? Does that mean its just a church that wants everyone to turn up? a church that likes a bit of both worlds?! An AC/DC church?
I'm afraid my religious education isn't great. I'd never heard of Anglo-Catholics before today. I just want somewhere peaceful to go and think for someone reason I got the idea of the local church. Unfortunately you can't just got sit in church for a bit of salvation for want of a better word ,there all locked up unless it's a mass.
The first (indeed the only church) I attended regularly as a child was Anglo Catholic. It was only when I went to a Roman Catholic Church that I realised quite how high AC is. The RC ceremony was minimalist in comparison. The AC father's outfit was near Papal (indeed would outdo the current incumbent) we had incense, candles everywhere; Latin, very long services, very good music with castrati; in fact I only just escaped intact.
If it's not part of the Universe it's unreal. If it's unreal it does not exist. A smoke detector has the ability to monitor the environment. Would you say it is aware. Does it have sentience. Can it observe. If all sentient life on the planet died tomorrow could a smoke detector still be said to be in any way monitoring the environment. There's nothing mysterious about this except for the lack of explanation of how matter causes or creates consciousness. Maybe it is some state of matter and we can give it a theoretical label like the physicist Max Tegmark did with Perceptronium.
"Tegmark does not have an answer"
"Perceptronium" is nothing like "computronium" (imho)
"new way of thinking about consciousness that is spreading like wildfire through the theoretical physics community" may be wishful thinking. There's a lot of it about. ;-)
Nothing compares with life. Life only borrows stuff and calls it me in the process.
Computers are designed. Big difference. I doubt one of those, however complex, could understand why 'being' is as significant as it is (to me). They can be shut down and rebooted without a problem. We can't, although we do have different levels of function. All in all a supremely fine device we have here. I'd hazard a few bob on man not being able to make one as capable, even if we had as long as evolution took to do it. I'm impressed.
(I'm gone for as long as it takes, so you'll have to take my word for all of the above, until I get back. Take care.)
Consciousness is simply what happens when the model of the world that a brain uses for predictions includes a model of the creature whose brain it is.
A cat has to model what its prey might do. Humans model what other humans might do because we are social animals. When you model yourself you're conscious of yourself, that's what the word means.
A few very well chosen illustrative words thanks for that. I have tried to explain this myself but never managed it quite so succinctly.
There really is no reason for this one human attribute to be the subject of special exemptions and theories. A cat mentally modelling a mouse does not seem to present people with metaphysical or 'hard' problems so why does our much larger brains ability to model ourselves invoke them?
Ok mushy, glad we're talking again, say what you like, think what you like, but I've stated my views in that long reply to Quikey's list of beliefs, would you like to discuss any of them?
not got time...i dont get some of them, i broadly agree with most of what you said.
There is significantly more evidence to suggest that matter causes consciousness than there is to suggest that for your magical explanation. Just because you are ignorant of the scientific research taking place in the field of neuroscience, doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.
I honestly think the brain is a ridiculously complex organic computer... but a computer nonetheless; one which I believe human technology will be able to emulate one day.
I see no reason why consciousness has to be explained by some magical force of nature.
This significant evidence that you have faith in depends on a materialist view of the world. Feel free to tell me what this evidence is and I will do my best to dismiss it with a non materialist view.
I don't understand why a view that derives from a non materialist view of existence should be considered magic. What do you mean when you use the phrase "magical force of nature". Do you perhaps mean something that your understanding of science does not yet have an answer for such as, for example, consciousness or existence.
I'm also interested to hear of this scientific research taking place in the field of neuroscience, that I am ignorant of, . To be honest I've never considered you to be a poster that is up to date in the field of neuroscience and consciousness. Why have you not presented your understanding of it already? Enlighten me.
Consciousness is simply what happens when the model of the world that a brain uses for predictions includes a model of the creature whose brain it is.
A cat has to model what its prey might do. Humans model what other humans might do because we are social animals. When you model yourself you're conscious of yourself, that's what the word means.
OK let's substitute the word sentience instead. You lost me in that first sentence.
This significant evidence that you have faith in depends on a materialist view of the world. Feel free to tell me what this evidence is and I will do my best to dismiss it with a non materialist view.
That's your problem. Non-materialism fails. If you wanted to, you could take any part of scientific knowledge and dismiss it as being based on materialistic dogma, then shoehorn some bollocks non-materialist explanation which essentially amounts to magic.
I don't understand why a view that derives from a non materialist view of existence should be considered magic. What do you mean when you use the phrase "magical force of nature". Do you perhaps mean something that your understanding of science does not yet have an answer for such as, for example, consciousness or existence.
There is no evidence that non-material phenomena exist or have ever existed so if you wanted to, you could completely make a non-material explanation for absolutely anything. A non-material view of the brain has absolutely no evidence. It is just something you and other people have made up. That is why it essentially amounts to magic.
A non-materialist, holistic viewpoint does not work, IMO; I can't describe it as any more than wishful thinking with a similar thought process to this: "I can't believe everything I am is created by the firing of neurones and the chemicals in the brain. I want to feel special, so I'll make up this explanation which involves some universal force in order for me to feel more important than just a bag of chemicals on a rock in the middle of the vastness of space."
I'm also interested to hear of this scientific research taking place in the field of neuroscience, that I am ignorant of, . To be honest I've never considered you to be a poster that is up to date in the field of neuroscience and consciousness. Why have you not presented your understanding of it already? Enlighten me.
I'm not, but even I know the evidence exists. I imagine there is vastly more information out there than I am aware of.
Of the top of my head: I've read numerous articles about the effect of certain chemicals on the brain; dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins etc.
The fact that a molecule such as LSD can alter consciousness so drastically suggests to me that the brain has a chemical function; molecules simply binding to receptor sites is sufficient to completely alter our perception of reality (or do you have a magical explanation for LSD too?)
Scientists have isolated individual neurones which fire in response to certain thoughts and stimuli and have identified entire neural pathways associated with various brain functions.
Some more evidence is available in the video I linked you to which I can't be bothered typing out here.
I am not and never will be a neuroscientist so if you really are interested in the evidence I suggest you speak to one as he/she will be able to give you more detailed information. What is clear though is that the evidence for how the brain functions is growing by the day.
How about you show me evidence to back up your claim of non-material consciousness?
Comments
Don't shout about it, they'll all want some!
I've been thinking about going to church lately ..
I noticed that my local church ( the one I was christened in) has changed from church of England to Catholic ..how is this possible? It's been there since the early 19th century and suddenly it's a catholic church? Were the C of E just renting it ..have they sold it to the Catholics?
It appears to have had a makeover too .. my mum does always say there is money in the Catholic church ..
Hi! Think your Mum's right.;-) No idea about the buying and selling of Churches;-)
How do you know? That's basically an argument from incredulity.
I think some people seriously over-estimate consciousness. I think a lot of is, for want of a better word, an illusion. I don't see emotions as more than a means to an end; a response to a stimulus.
If a p-zombie is indistinguishable from a human, then consciousness has been successfully emulated, IMO. I can't tell whether you actually have subjective experiences like I do never mind something which can perfectly emulate a human.
I should also add that this is of course just speculation and I could be completely and utterly wrong.
Regardless of whether consciousness can be successfully emulated, I think it's evident that it is created in the brain, by the brain.
I can't say I've ever heard about something like that before.
Does the church have a website? Maybe it says something on there about it if it does.
ETA: It hasn't become Anglo-Catholic has it? As that would still be the C of E.
Yes I was, and it blew my mind too. First time I'd seen in writing a description of the 'spiritual' experience I believe I had - though I imagine theirs must have been a hundred times more powerful. It certainly got me thinking as to the cause of it.
I ordered the book (The Overview Effect) from the US as I couldn't get it here. Am reading it at the moment :cool:
I've looked it up ,yes It does says Anglo-Catholic .Which I looked up and totally confused me .. Anglican but believing in elements of Catholicism?? Does that mean its just a church that wants everyone to turn up? a church that likes a bit of both worlds?! An AC/DC church?
I'm afraid my religious education isn't great. I'd never heard of Anglo-Catholics before today. I just want somewhere peaceful to go and think for someone reason I got the idea of the local church. Unfortunately you can't just got sit in church for a bit of salvation for want of a better word ,there all locked up unless it's a mass.
BIB - Not really.
The C of E is a broad Church which includes high and low churches within it.
This link can tell you more about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_catholic
ETA: Sadly some churches can't leave their doors open these days, for various reasons. Do you live in a town or a village or a city? (Sorry if I'm being nosey lol) It's just that I find churches in cities (well, my nearest one anyway) are usually open all day for people who wish to go and sit in the peace and quiet for a while, light candles etc. like you would like to do.
Cathedrals are also usually open every day, too.
Thanks for the info
Your right about cathedrals. You can just wander in and have a look , always very cold though! ;-)
It rather is, without the proviso after it.
Which would be harder. To have it experience exactly as you do? Or as someone else does?
I agree. It's merely the very finest land based awareness with nothing much to do imho.
I think I agree, except it would only be emulation. It would only appear to be human and it would only be the result of clever engineering which makes it appear that way. Which may mean it will have greater difficulty dealing with unforeseen circumstances than we do. Future proofing is hard engineering.
I blame the kids. Some bright kid asks - so who invented talking?
Must've been really boring having brains pretty much the same as ours, but not much good stuff to fill 'em with.
I also blame the spin. Come back with me, if you will, to a time when the very first creature evolved the ability to see. It would have had a whale of a time, for a few hours, until it got dark. It would probably have thought sh.. I've gone blind already.
If it survived the first night, and a few more, it might get the hang of it and eventually feel safe enough to disengage its sense of sight over night. Wasn't long after that it evolved an ear to hear if it needs to wake up and scarper instead of dreaming of food and sex and etc..
^^ May not be true.
Apologies to MrQuike. I will try harder to be calmer.
Not the sort of balance you can get right at first attempt. A robot in full blown vacillation is not a pretty sight.
A cat has to model what its prey might do. Humans model what other humans might do because we are social animals. When you model yourself you're conscious of yourself, that's what the word means.
The first (indeed the only church) I attended regularly as a child was Anglo Catholic. It was only when I went to a Roman Catholic Church that I realised quite how high AC is. The RC ceremony was minimalist in comparison. The AC father's outfit was near Papal (indeed would outdo the current incumbent) we had incense, candles everywhere; Latin, very long services, very good music with castrati; in fact I only just escaped intact.
OK I made it up about the castrati.
"Perceptronium" is nothing like "computronium" (imho)
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/5e7ed624986d
"new way of thinking about consciousness that is spreading like wildfire through the theoretical physics community" may be wishful thinking. There's a lot of it about. ;-)
Nothing compares with life. Life only borrows stuff and calls it me in the process.
Computers are designed. Big difference. I doubt one of those, however complex, could understand why 'being' is as significant as it is (to me). They can be shut down and rebooted without a problem. We can't, although we do have different levels of function. All in all a supremely fine device we have here. I'd hazard a few bob on man not being able to make one as capable, even if we had as long as evolution took to do it. I'm impressed.
(I'm gone for as long as it takes, so you'll have to take my word for all of the above,
A few very well chosen illustrative words thanks for that. I have tried to explain this myself but never managed it quite so succinctly.
There really is no reason for this one human attribute to be the subject of special exemptions and theories. A cat mentally modelling a mouse does not seem to present people with metaphysical or 'hard' problems so why does our much larger brains ability to model ourselves invoke them?
not got time...i dont get some of them, i broadly agree with most of what you said.
TEA! Ugh. Just stay away from the coffee machine when you are cleaning the office, you hear.
Apologies for the mistaken gender attribution. An unconscious manifestation of sexist assumptions there I own. mea culpa.
This significant evidence that you have faith in depends on a materialist view of the world. Feel free to tell me what this evidence is and I will do my best to dismiss it with a non materialist view.
I don't understand why a view that derives from a non materialist view of existence should be considered magic. What do you mean when you use the phrase "magical force of nature". Do you perhaps mean something that your understanding of science does not yet have an answer for such as, for example, consciousness or existence.
I'm also interested to hear of this scientific research taking place in the field of neuroscience, that I am ignorant of, . To be honest I've never considered you to be a poster that is up to date in the field of neuroscience and consciousness. Why have you not presented your understanding of it already? Enlighten me.
OK let's substitute the word sentience instead. You lost me in that first sentence.
No probs, it happens a lot (though happily not in 'real life' I hasten to add
Anyway, here's an interesting documentary which may shed some light on some of the areas of research: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
There is no evidence that non-material phenomena exist or have ever existed so if you wanted to, you could completely make a non-material explanation for absolutely anything. A non-material view of the brain has absolutely no evidence. It is just something you and other people have made up. That is why it essentially amounts to magic.
A non-materialist, holistic viewpoint does not work, IMO; I can't describe it as any more than wishful thinking with a similar thought process to this: "I can't believe everything I am is created by the firing of neurones and the chemicals in the brain. I want to feel special, so I'll make up this explanation which involves some universal force in order for me to feel more important than just a bag of chemicals on a rock in the middle of the vastness of space."
I'm not, but even I know the evidence exists. I imagine there is vastly more information out there than I am aware of.
Of the top of my head: I've read numerous articles about the effect of certain chemicals on the brain; dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins etc.
The fact that a molecule such as LSD can alter consciousness so drastically suggests to me that the brain has a chemical function; molecules simply binding to receptor sites is sufficient to completely alter our perception of reality (or do you have a magical explanation for LSD too?)
Scientists have isolated individual neurones which fire in response to certain thoughts and stimuli and have identified entire neural pathways associated with various brain functions.
Some more evidence is available in the video I linked you to which I can't be bothered typing out here.
I am not and never will be a neuroscientist so if you really are interested in the evidence I suggest you speak to one as he/she will be able to give you more detailed information. What is clear though is that the evidence for how the brain functions is growing by the day.
How about you show me evidence to back up your claim of non-material consciousness?
O teach me how I should forget to think.