Why are you talking about race in a thread about culture?What culture is black?
What culture is white?
What culture is Asian?
Perhaps your touching little tableau of multi racial harmony had a little more to do with a shared set of values than having to overcome some fantasy hang up about skin pigmentation, which is mostly in the fevered imagination of some 1950s throwback in any case.
Culture is a set of values shared by a group of people which is informed by geography and history. Not all cultures are the same and subjectively not all culture deserves respect. A culture is shaped and informed over millenia by events which have a profound effect on the people within it and their reactions to those events. And the ideas and attitudes which flow from those reactions. And the language in which those ideas are formulated and expressed. The terrain, the climate, the lay of the land all have a huge part to play in the building of a culture. People may enter or leave and the culture may ebb and flow to reflect this. But in order for a culture to be confident the people born into it must be encouraged to learn how it came about and what it cost. The value we place on freedoms as a culture, didn't come out of a Christmas cracker. I can assure you it cost a lot in terms of blood and tears and lives, and anyone who cries racist at the first sign of someone demonstrating their appreciation of, or gratitude for the culture of the UK is an unthinking bigot as far as I'm concerned.
And anyone who conflates race with culture is merely unthinking.
Great post summed up exactly what this thread is about as Sutie said
But sounds a bit bigoted, racist and xenophibic to me........................
Indeed, people get on fine for quite a while before they get into the whole murder war bit... the rivers of blood speech was actually correct. Look at rwanda, india/pakistan. It is all good until it is not..then it is really really awful.
You don't have to go that far. You only have to look at the behaviour and attitudes rival fans at footy matches display towards each other to see the dark side of humanities herding instincts. It crops up everywhere. Rangers v Celtic, mods v rockers, Tories v Labour, creation v evolution...the list is endless. We humans don't natutally give ground. We get entrenched in our attitudes and even though the idea of a multicultural love fest is something to aspire to I'm of the opinion that the default setting of your average human is in direct conflict with that aspiration.
Bit deep I know but it's how I see it none the less.
Why are you talking about race in a thread about culture?What culture is black?
....
And anyone who conflates race with culture is merely unthinking.
You are being a touch unthinking in replying to only part of my post - and out of context. It would help you a lot if you had bothered to read the posts I was replying to, in the latest of which Rook was making an interesting point about a dispute between two people of different races (but immigrant background) who evidently didn't understand each others' attitudes very well.
Furthermore, you are moving the goalposts. Most complaints in this thread have been about immigrants not adopting (enough) English culture. This is not at all the same thing as respecting and appreciating it. People can easily do that without having to actually adopt it. The time to set a rule that immigrants must abandon their own culture is when they are first applying to enter the country. After that it is too late - people naturally bring their cultures with them. Remember though, this is anti-democratic, many may refuse, and you will lose both the curry-house cook and the heart surgeon.
Given the freedom of association and other principles that are also ingrained into UK culture, you should also be prepared to lose a lot of court cases before you give up...
No you haven't. You've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to racists, bigots and xenophobes. ( which exist in all groups btw )
These are the people who cause divide. Everyone else gets on fine.
I dont think the poster was saying that British born people never commit crime,,but more that we have enough scum of our own without importing more as well...a sentiment i fully agree with
I dont think the poster was saying that British born people never commit crime,,but more that we have enough scum of our own without importing more as well...a sentiment i fully agree with
No the poster was saying Multiculturalism causes X-Y-Z
I was pointing out that the racists. bigots and xenophobes cause X-Y-Z ( and I and he were talking about racist. bigot and xenophobe related crime )
No the poster was saying Multiculturalism causes X-Y-Z
I was pointing out that the racists. bigots and xenophobes cause X-Y-Z ( and I and he were talking about racist. bigot and xenophobe related crime )
Well "you" are never going to talk about immigrant/migrant crime are you ?
racists. bigots and xenophobes are also words thrown at anyone who disagrees with disastrous affirmative actions and has the guts to stand up for the mass immigration disaster over the last 50 years or so
Why are you talking about race in a thread about culture?What culture is black?
What culture is white?
What culture is Asian?
Perhaps your touching little tableau of multi racial harmony had a little more to do with a shared set of values than having to overcome some fantasy hang up about skin pigmentation, which is mostly in the fevered imagination of some 1950s throwback in any case.
Culture is a set of values shared by a group of people which is informed by geography and history. Not all cultures are the same and subjectively not all culture deserves respect. A culture is shaped and informed over millenia by events which have a profound effect on the people within it and their reactions to those events. And the ideas and attitudes which flow from those reactions. And the language in which those ideas are formulated and expressed. The terrain, the climate, the lay of the land all have a huge part to play in the building of a culture. People may enter or leave and the culture may ebb and flow to reflect this. But in order for a culture to be confident the people born into it must be encouraged to learn how it came about and what it cost. The value we place on freedoms as a culture, didn't come out of a Christmas cracker. I can assure you it cost a lot in terms of blood and tears and lives, and anyone who cries racist at the first sign of someone demonstrating their appreciation of, or gratitude for the culture of the UK is an unthinking bigot as far as I'm concerned.
And anyone who conflates race with culture is merely unthinking.
Cultures exist whether you respect them or not. That has always been the case. We as individuals are insignificant next to human development as a society and despite our personal misgivings or favourites, human society will develop regardless. Arguable we have control over certain modern progresses such as immigration but one could counter that by suggesting immigration has always taken place since the dawn of human civilisation.
I know the modern world is a different place but history has shown us how different forms of immigration (be it from migration to invasion) has led to absorption, mingling of new practices and behaviours as well as conversely the intolerance to such new ideas. So while it could be argued the origins of cultures are tied into their geological locations, this isn't a barrier to anything.
The danger in denouncing many/most/all (delete as appropriate) suggestions of intolerance (on any level) due to fears of the infringement of freedom is that this is in turn abused by those who would wish to express ideas not shared generally and which are unjustifiable at any time.
That's not to say it hasn't been used too much - but I think it happens nowhere near as much as the incidents of reactions against it. Scroll through this thread and countless others in the Politics forum and count the number of "you're <such and such>!" allegations to the "ooh you can't say that, you'll get branded <such and such>" or "I can't say what I want to say cos I'll get banned, typical DS lefties" etc. You might be surprised at the figures. So is the recognition of the problem of accusations as bad as the accusations themselves in the long term idea of being able to sustain a decent debate? I'd suggest both are bad.
Not the British people though, when were they ever asked if they wanted a flood of immigration, followed by multiculturalism?
How about a referendum.
When immigrants arrive in this country should:
1. We celibate their diversity and differences
2. Integrate them.
Instead a few politicians made all the decisions on our behalf, it probably wasn't even in their manifestos.
Most people would expect immigrants coming here, to be doing so because they wish to become British. Not just grab some land and set up a colony, while ignoring everybody here.
You don't have to go that far. You only have to look at the behaviour and attitudes rival fans at foot matches display towards each other to see the dark side of humanities herding instincts. It crops up everywhere. Rangers v Celtic, mods v rockers, Tories v Labour, creation v evolution...the list is endless. We humans don't natutally give ground. We get entrenched in our attitudes and even though the idea of a multicultural love fest is something to aspire to I'm of the opinion that the default setting of your average human is in direct conflict with that aspiration.Bit deep I know but it's how I see it none the less.
Perhaps because it works better in the long run for people?
Shared goals, shared beliefs ect, end up pushing a people forward so long term that society benefits?
I mean look at the time and energy that is wasted on worrying about differences of culture.
Just in schools for example, couldn't a lot more advanced English be taught if there wasn't any concerns about whether it was inclusive or if people already had a good grasp of the language?
Well "you" are never going to talk about immigrant/migrant crime are you ?
Why not? Criminals exist in every group
racists. bigots and xenophobes are also words thrown at anyone who disagrees with disastrous affirmative actions and has the guts to stand up for the mass immigration disaster over the last 50 years or so
I only call racists, bigots and xenophobes, racists, bigots and xenophobes
Perhaps because it works better in the long run for people?
Shared goals, shared beliefs ect, end up pushing a people forward so long term that society benefits?
I mean look at the time and energy that is wasted on worrying about differences of culture.
Just in schools for example, couldn't a lot more advanced English be taught if there wasn't any concerns about whether it was inclusive or if people already had a good grasp of the language?
I don't worry about differences in culture. I just let people get on with it.
People with prejudices on the other hand seem to spend a lot of time worrying about it. So much so they want to force everyone in Britain to live the same way as them.
Oh and you still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
I don't worry about differences in culture. I just let people get on with it.
People with prejudices on the other hand seem to spend a lot of time worrying about it. So much so they want to force everyone in Britain to live the same way as them.
Oh and you still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
When they believe it affects their child's education are they not right to worry about it?
Is it simply prejudice to turn round and say "my child's english education is being held back because many of the children they have to attend with don't speak the language" when that's actually happening?
Originally Posted by ItJustMyOpinion View Post
Not the British people though, when were they ever asked if they wanted a flood of immigration, followed by multiculturalism?
Quite true... they were not. But look around the world - no government ever seems to consult 'the people' in such cases. Perhaps it is a fault in the type of government, or more likely, capitalism. The governments at the time were desperate for Labour. They had already called on the Commonwealth to die for Britain during two World Wars, simply asking them to come and work was relatively trivial.
How about a referendum.
When immigrants arrive in this country should:
1. We celibate their diversity and differences
2. Integrate them.
1. celibate?
2. You want to 'integrate' (undefined meaning!) them? Sounds a bit forcible. There're a lot of laws that you'd have to change first, because they would interfere with your 'programme' of forced integration.
Most people would expect immigrants coming here, to be doing so because they wish to become British. Not just grab some land and set up a colony, while ignoring everybody here.
Most people would be wrong then - or most likely, you are associating 'most people' with your mistaken assumption. Most immigrants are quite happy with who they are, and come to the UK to work, get an education, live a better life, etc. Very different from wishing to become British. Don't worry though - if they stay, their great-grandchildren are usually pretty British.
Quite true... they were not. But look around the world - no government ever seems to consult 'the people' in such cases. Perhaps it is a fault in the type of government, or more likely, capitalism. The governments at the time were desperate for Labour. They had already called on the Commonwealth to die for Britain during two World Wars, simply asking them to come and work was relatively trivial.
1. celibate?
2. You want to 'integrate' (undefined meaning!) them? Sounds a bit forcible. There're a lot of laws that you'd have to change first, because they would interfere with your 'programme' of forced integration.
Most people would expect immigrants coming here, to be doing so because they wish to become British. Not just grab some land and set up a colony, while ignoring everybody here.
Most people would be wrong then - or most likely, you are associating 'most people' with your mistaken assumption. Most immigrants are quite happy with who they are, and come to the UK to work, get an education, live a better life, etc. Very different from wishing to become British. Don't worry though - if they stay, their great-grandchildren are usually pretty British.
Perhaps I will consult you when I wish to make some points about football. I'm not so convinced about your expertise on this subject.
So why is there any complaint when people don't refer to them as Brtish or draw a distinction between immigrants (who you have just said don't want to be British) and people who do consider themselves British?
I think perhaps you have just outlined why British people feel that to some extent, somebody's taking the piss.:D
I don't worry about differences in culture. I just let people get on with it.
People with prejudices on the other hand seem to spend a lot of time worrying about it. So much so they want to force everyone in Britain to live the same way as them.
Oh and you still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
just what the liberal pro immigration people want then !!!
So why is there any complaint when people don't refer to them as Brtish or draw a distinction between immigrants (who you have just said don't want to be British) and people who do consider themselves British?
I think perhaps you have just outlined why British people feel that to some extent, somebody's taking the piss.:D
Some want to become part of Britain and some don't mind where they live. Is it any different to anyone living here? Some love to think they are British or are very patriotic ("I'm proud to be English!") and others couldn't care less because they think there's more important things in life to concern themselves with (and sometimes I think they're absolutely right)
When they believe it affects their child's education are they not right to worry about it?
Is it simply prejudice to turn round and say "my child's english education is being held back because many of the children they have to attend with don't speak the language" when that's actually happening?
You still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
Some want to become part of Britain and some don't mind where they live. Is it any different to anyone living here? Some love to think they are British or are very patriotic ("I'm proud to be English!") and others couldn't care less because they think there's more important things in life to concern themselves with (and sometimes I think they're absolutely right)
You think a country, any country, can survive as a nation if too many people don't feel any loyalty to it?
What happens if there's a repeat of 1939?
Do all those who "don't mind where they live" just leave and watch from the safety of another country to see how it turns out?
And then you wonder why people feel that this kind of immigration has little benefit?
As for British people who are unpatrotic, well if the sh*t hits the fan it's surprising what happens and then there's also the point that they haven't got anywhere else to go.
just what the liberal pro immigration people want then !!!
Do they? I would have thought pro Immigration people want more immigration. I certainly don't think they want everyone to live the same way as each other.
Liberals? well they want more liberalism I would guess.
You think a country, any country, can survive as a nation if too many people don't feel any loyalty to it?
What happens if there's a repeat of 1939?
Do all those who "don't mind where they live" just leave and watch from the safety of another country to see how it turns out?
And then you wonder why people feel that this kind of immigration has little benefit?
As for British people who are unpatrotic, well if the sh*t hits the fan it's surprising what happens and then there's also the point that they haven't got anywhere else to go.
By 1939, I presume you mean if some Racist, Xenophobe and bigot is elected to power here, and then proceeds to kill all those who he finds speaking a foreign language on the bus?
I'm not sure hat that has to do with those who "Don't mind where they live".
If there was a repeat of 1939 here I'd certainly leave immediately. Being Jewish it wouldn't be sensible to stay would it?
You still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist. and everyone else can see you're ignoring the question you know.
What comes first, a united people working together or good weapons?
If you mean by 'united' you mean people all living in the same way then I can think of nothing more unhealthy for people.
On the other hand people all contributing to the society but retaining their individualism and individual culture/ background then that is a good thing.
You think a country, any country, can survive as a nation if too many people don't feel any loyalty to it?
What happens if there's a repeat of 1939?
Do all those who "don't mind where they live" just leave and watch from the safety of another country to see how it turns out?
And then you wonder why people feel that this kind of immigration has little benefit?
As for British people who are unpatrotic, well if the sh*t hits the fan it's surprising what happens and then there's also the point that they haven't got anywhere else to go.
Come on SS, let's get real. Our behaviour living in peace time can't be compared to our behaviour in times of strife and war. I'd even go so far as to reckon there's fewer "patriots" around in the current economic climate as most will be busy trying to make it safely to the next pay check etc.
Don't mistake what I'm saying for having a go at national pride because that's not my intention. I think it can be a good thing and in competitive principles such as sport it can galvanise a nation in ways that little else is possible.
Comments
Great post summed up exactly what this thread is about as Sutie said
But sounds a bit bigoted, racist and xenophibic to me........................
(just thought I'd get in first)
You don't have to go that far. You only have to look at the behaviour and attitudes rival fans at footy matches display towards each other to see the dark side of humanities herding instincts. It crops up everywhere. Rangers v Celtic, mods v rockers, Tories v Labour, creation v evolution...the list is endless. We humans don't natutally give ground. We get entrenched in our attitudes and even though the idea of a multicultural love fest is something to aspire to I'm of the opinion that the default setting of your average human is in direct conflict with that aspiration.
Bit deep I know but it's how I see it none the less.
You are being a touch unthinking in replying to only part of my post - and out of context. It would help you a lot if you had bothered to read the posts I was replying to, in the latest of which Rook was making an interesting point about a dispute between two people of different races (but immigrant background) who evidently didn't understand each others' attitudes very well.
Furthermore, you are moving the goalposts. Most complaints in this thread have been about immigrants not adopting (enough) English culture. This is not at all the same thing as respecting and appreciating it. People can easily do that without having to actually adopt it. The time to set a rule that immigrants must abandon their own culture is when they are first applying to enter the country. After that it is too late - people naturally bring their cultures with them. Remember though, this is anti-democratic, many may refuse, and you will lose both the curry-house cook and the heart surgeon.
Given the freedom of association and other principles that are also ingrained into UK culture, you should also be prepared to lose a lot of court cases before you give up...
I dont think the poster was saying that British born people never commit crime,,but more that we have enough scum of our own without importing more as well...a sentiment i fully agree with
No the poster was saying Multiculturalism causes X-Y-Z
I was pointing out that the racists. bigots and xenophobes cause X-Y-Z ( and I and he were talking about racist. bigot and xenophobe related crime )
Well "you" are never going to talk about immigrant/migrant crime are you ?
racists. bigots and xenophobes are also words thrown at anyone who disagrees with disastrous affirmative actions and has the guts to stand up for the mass immigration disaster over the last 50 years or so
Cultures exist whether you respect them or not. That has always been the case. We as individuals are insignificant next to human development as a society and despite our personal misgivings or favourites, human society will develop regardless. Arguable we have control over certain modern progresses such as immigration but one could counter that by suggesting immigration has always taken place since the dawn of human civilisation.
I know the modern world is a different place but history has shown us how different forms of immigration (be it from migration to invasion) has led to absorption, mingling of new practices and behaviours as well as conversely the intolerance to such new ideas. So while it could be argued the origins of cultures are tied into their geological locations, this isn't a barrier to anything.
The danger in denouncing many/most/all (delete as appropriate) suggestions of intolerance (on any level) due to fears of the infringement of freedom is that this is in turn abused by those who would wish to express ideas not shared generally and which are unjustifiable at any time.
That's not to say it hasn't been used too much - but I think it happens nowhere near as much as the incidents of reactions against it. Scroll through this thread and countless others in the Politics forum and count the number of "you're <such and such>!" allegations to the "ooh you can't say that, you'll get branded <such and such>" or "I can't say what I want to say cos I'll get banned, typical DS lefties" etc. You might be surprised at the figures. So is the recognition of the problem of accusations as bad as the accusations themselves in the long term idea of being able to sustain a decent debate? I'd suggest both are bad.
Back of the Net...he scores...
Perhaps because it works better in the long run for people?
Shared goals, shared beliefs ect, end up pushing a people forward so long term that society benefits?
I mean look at the time and energy that is wasted on worrying about differences of culture.
Just in schools for example, couldn't a lot more advanced English be taught if there wasn't any concerns about whether it was inclusive or if people already had a good grasp of the language?
Why not? Criminals exist in every group
I only call racists, bigots and xenophobes, racists, bigots and xenophobes
I don't worry about differences in culture. I just let people get on with it.
People with prejudices on the other hand seem to spend a lot of time worrying about it. So much so they want to force everyone in Britain to live the same way as them.
Oh and you still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
Sutie, you were the brunt of a lot of not-so- thinly veiled insults earlier on in this thread. God only knows why.
Good. Saves him the bother.
When they believe it affects their child's education are they not right to worry about it?
Is it simply prejudice to turn round and say "my child's english education is being held back because many of the children they have to attend with don't speak the language" when that's actually happening?
1. celibate?
2. You want to 'integrate' (undefined meaning!) them? Sounds a bit forcible. There're a lot of laws that you'd have to change first, because they would interfere with your 'programme' of forced integration.
Most people would expect immigrants coming here, to be doing so because they wish to become British. Not just grab some land and set up a colony, while ignoring everybody here.
Most people would be wrong then - or most likely, you are associating 'most people' with your mistaken assumption. Most immigrants are quite happy with who they are, and come to the UK to work, get an education, live a better life, etc. Very different from wishing to become British. Don't worry though - if they stay, their great-grandchildren are usually pretty British.
Perhaps I will consult you when I wish to make some points about football. I'm not so convinced about your expertise on this subject.
Only if you happen to be singing from the same hymn sheet as the side with the best weapons if history is anything to go by.
So why is there any complaint when people don't refer to them as Brtish or draw a distinction between immigrants (who you have just said don't want to be British) and people who do consider themselves British?
I think perhaps you have just outlined why British people feel that to some extent, somebody's taking the piss.:D
What comes first, a united people working together or good weapons?
just what the liberal pro immigration people want then !!!
Some want to become part of Britain and some don't mind where they live. Is it any different to anyone living here? Some love to think they are British or are very patriotic ("I'm proud to be English!") and others couldn't care less because they think there's more important things in life to concern themselves with (and sometimes I think they're absolutely right)
EDIT: Bah....only just realised I've hit 7k posts
You still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist.
You think a country, any country, can survive as a nation if too many people don't feel any loyalty to it?
What happens if there's a repeat of 1939?
Do all those who "don't mind where they live" just leave and watch from the safety of another country to see how it turns out?
And then you wonder why people feel that this kind of immigration has little benefit?
As for British people who are unpatrotic, well if the sh*t hits the fan it's surprising what happens and then there's also the point that they haven't got anywhere else to go.
Do they? I would have thought pro Immigration people want more immigration. I certainly don't think they want everyone to live the same way as each other.
Liberals? well they want more liberalism I would guess.
By 1939, I presume you mean if some Racist, Xenophobe and bigot is elected to power here, and then proceeds to kill all those who he finds speaking a foreign language on the bus?
I'm not sure hat that has to do with those who "Don't mind where they live".
If there was a repeat of 1939 here I'd certainly leave immediately. Being Jewish it wouldn't be sensible to stay would it?
You still haven't told us whether you think there are racists, bigots and xenophobes on this forum or not. Not asking you to name them of course as that would be disingenuous, just whether they exist. and everyone else can see you're ignoring the question you know.
If you mean by 'united' you mean people all living in the same way then I can think of nothing more unhealthy for people.
On the other hand people all contributing to the society but retaining their individualism and individual culture/ background then that is a good thing.
Come on SS, let's get real. Our behaviour living in peace time can't be compared to our behaviour in times of strife and war. I'd even go so far as to reckon there's fewer "patriots" around in the current economic climate as most will be busy trying to make it safely to the next pay check etc.
Don't mistake what I'm saying for having a go at national pride because that's not my intention. I think it can be a good thing and in competitive principles such as sport it can galvanise a nation in ways that little else is possible.