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Going back to the late eighties
geogie
Posts: 32 Forum Member
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Hi, I don't post often but I feel that the show is following in a fashion what happened in the late eighties before it got cancelled. Much as I love Steven Moffat the programme needs an injection of life and a change of direction, just like it got stale with John Nathan turner at the helm.
The ratings are getting lower which is a fact which happened in the eighties. Russell Davies knew when to quit, so why do we have to carry on seeing our programme dragged into the mire. Like I say I'm not a Moffat hater he's done excellent work but the writing is so self indulgent now the average viewer turns off.
My wife watched the episode on Saturday only to walk away after a promising start, saying its boring and all over the place.
I think Steven wants to please the fans and generally succeeded but it's the general public he wants to please. I want to hear the public talking about the programme again.
The programmes only saving grace is its a cash cow, and the Americans love it.
I don't want to sound negative but the programme needs to move on just like it's done all its life apart from the dire late eighties. Steven don't be a John Nathan turner.
The ratings are getting lower which is a fact which happened in the eighties. Russell Davies knew when to quit, so why do we have to carry on seeing our programme dragged into the mire. Like I say I'm not a Moffat hater he's done excellent work but the writing is so self indulgent now the average viewer turns off.
My wife watched the episode on Saturday only to walk away after a promising start, saying its boring and all over the place.
I think Steven wants to please the fans and generally succeeded but it's the general public he wants to please. I want to hear the public talking about the programme again.
The programmes only saving grace is its a cash cow, and the Americans love it.
I don't want to sound negative but the programme needs to move on just like it's done all its life apart from the dire late eighties. Steven don't be a John Nathan turner.
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Comments
I appreciate that Moffat has been in charge for perhaps too long now, and it could be argued that the show could perhaps do with a fresh showrunner. But The Magician's Apprentice was one of the best received opening episodes for many years (critically if not with overnight viewing figures), and all the reviews are suggesting that this week's episode is even better. And those who've seen episodes 3 and 4 say that they are off the planet brilliant.
So far from Doctor Who being unloved by the BBC and in the doldrums (as it clearly was for a while in the mid 1980s) it seems to me that show has it's mojo firmly back again. My work colleagues were talking very positively about Doctor Who on Monday, something they've not done for quite a while, so I'd suggest that the public is still very much engaged with the show. Why not watch this current series before deciding whether you are going to write it off?
The Magician's Apprentice is now at 6.151m; we won't know the final number until Saturday. That's how TV ratings work nowadays. It was the most-watched programme on BBC One on Saturday. It got the highest numbers of any Who debut to date over on BBC America. It's absurd to suggest that it is likely shortly to be cancelled.
Sorry if it's not your favourite programme any more.
It gets boring doesn't it. Fine! If some don't enjoy it everyone has different tastes. It's a shame but that's the way it is. But it's this interminably irritating 'If I don't like it then no one shall' attitude that leads some to convince themselves the show must stop because they wish it show. Apart from the stunning arrogance of this it's just meanspirited.
I came across a Twitter conversation between some rather hard line 'Classic' Who fans who were all having a rather miserable contest to see who could whinge the most about The Magicians Appentrice and they were all bemoaning that DW is now broken and headed for the scrap heap. Except no. They had a couple of suggestions on how to improve it and even welcomed the suggestion...and I kid ye not...that bringing in John Challis (aka Boycie) on board as a companion and having Ace come back would be good for the show! Bless them. Relics. Clueless relics.
It's sometimes said that some people 'grow out of' Doctor Who. I disagree. Just as often the show outgrows the small minded unimaginative retrogressive tastes of even it's fiercest devotees. Just move on!
It's not worth it. The show's doing well, and has no signs of going any time soon.
Maybe a change of showrunner would be nice, now we've had SM for over five years, but other than that, nothing else needs doing.
Certainly not out to slate Steven or the programme, just giving my view that some of the ideas have become stale of late. I'm sure I'll be proved wrong and hope so with the rest of the season. I grew up with the doctor and I'll die watching.
I'll make the coffee this Saturday....
I feel that RTD opened up the Whoniverse to a big broad audience, sometimes at the expense of depth. But never mind - there were some create moments along the way.
Moffat engages my brain more, but I *enjoy* his episodes less. They lead with the head, not the heart.
His episodes demand that I concentrate; that I think.
Now, obviously that's a great thing. But it's not something that appeals to a mass audience.
Also, I feel that if I have to watch yet another Dalek story, I'll turn into one. Enough already. Talk about overexposure. And the less said anout modern cybermen the better.
Anyway, just the ramblins of a casual fan.
I think the show eventually should have a new showrunner, regardless of how good or bad the series is at the moment.
I don't think you can compare the show now to how it was in the late 80's. For a start the BBC is far more enamored with the show than it was back then and to honest, the show itself wasn't at it's best and pulling in the viewers, not helped when you had absurd stories such as seen in Season 24 and half of Season 25.
JNT wasn't a writer and that was a major drawback for the show as well and yes, he did stay too long, but remember that he wanted to leave when Colin Baker was sacked so you can sort of understand why he maybe run out of steam at this point.
Plus it was up against Corrie on a weekday.
Now it's all different, the BBC remain committed to it, and we have a writer in charge.
From my point of view, Saturday's episode was the best I'd seen in a long while. I do feel the show has been struggling to get back to form and has been getting there slowly over the last few series. Whether this one lives up to Saturday we can only tell at the end but whatever it brings , whether it's crap or ruddy brilliant I do think the show does benefit from a change of producer as Classic Who did many times and I would like to see this change in the next couple of Series.
Who you going for though Davey? Assuming it's not someone we all haven't heard of yet. Consider the likely contenders...Who is getting your X in the box?
No, it's time for a change when the show is demonstrably losing popularity, viewers, international sales. Until then why on Earth would the BBC take a chance on replacing its internationally acclaimed showrunner? It's just such a short-sighted view. What do they have to gain?
The grass is always greener. I'm sick of hearing it.
The show is not losing viewers; it has a steady viewership in the UK and a burgeoning one worldwide.
Everyone in the UK knows Doctor Who and they either like it or they don't. You cannot make the show more popular in the UK. Don't spout overnight viewing figures at me, they're meaningless. I am an avid Doctor Who viewer but i have never once watched it upon transmission on Saturday evening. I prefer to watch it at my convenience. Of all the people I know who watch the show, not a single one watches it on Saturday evening. All the overnights show is which channel the couch potatoes who will watch TV regardless of what was is on chose to leave on. But Doctor Who has a large, dedicated fanbase who will watch when and how they can, not necessarily on Saturday night. It is no way indicative of the show's true audience.
This is the age of the Internet. To think the people watching on the goggle box on the live broadcast (in one country at that) is the whole of the audience, or even the majority of the audience is utter stupidity. Luckily, the BBC do not think that.
General point, not aimed specifically at the OP: stop all this disingenuous rubbish that Moffat must go 'for the good of the show'. No, Moffat must go for the good of YOU and your taste, and even then you'll probably rue it when you get you wished for: the next John-Nathan turner who truly ISN'T up to the job.
I'm not sure to be honest. I'm not up on modern writers but yes, someone we haven't heard off may work. After all, it worked for actors playing The Doctor in the past.
Surely, though, if Moffat decides to leave of his own accord, there's not much anyone can do. Just like any Doctor who leaves.
RTD left when the show was doing well and it didn't do the show too much harm ratings-wise.
I never said Moffat should be replaced, I think he should leave when he wants to leave. I admit I've never been a big fan of his era but even if I had been, I still think a change is good for the show. Yes, the next showrunner maybe worse, they may even be better, but at least it'll bring another change in style and that's something to look forward too.
Firstly, there is no " you either like DW or you don't. If you don't, find another show". This is a daft and immature view. Critical viewing of a much loved show is perfectly acceptable. Witness, for example, Buffy, which had fantastic episodes, great episodes, poor episodes etc. Entire seasons slated, entire seasons held up as the very best TV had to offer.
Personally I've been dismayed at Moffat's direction, not because I think he's a poor writer but because I think he tries to do too much and ends up succeeding at very little.
The Magicians Apprentice is, for me, probably the finest example of this problem. The central theme around Davros was largely well executed, beautifully dark and close to the kind of DW I've always wished for. The reveal at the end was great. But...
The "deaths" will be reversed by the usual predictable deux ex machina trope. Tired and lazy.
Missy is an idea in search of a reason. I love Michelle Gomez but her presence in this show is largely redundant. Moffat tends to write one dimensional female characters and then do even less with them.
The frozen planes could've been interesting but was all too readily thrown aside without development and was ultimately pointless. Surely Missy could've just turned up at Clara's door. It's this kind of grandstanding that irks many who love the show.
The references back to previous doctors was ok, but there's a point at which being a slave to the past becomes cloying nostalgia.
However, more than any of these things, my main and overarching complaint is that this is not Docotr Who ....
The story focuses around the Doctor's life and actions far too much. Classic Who treated the Doctor as a cipher, he turned up, fixed things for a set of characters in peril and then disappeared. Moffat has fallen into the trap set by Cartmel in seeing the Doctor as the story, rather than the story as the vehicle for the Doctor. If, ultimately, the Doctor is reposnsible for everything that's happened of any signifance in the universe then there is no real story.
I'd like to see a return to self contained adventures, retain the mystery of the central character and remove the domestic/soap earth moments around the companions.
Last week's episode was full of promise, but the reason many don't like it is not that they are "not fans" it's that they don't like it! Much like your favourite sports team you don't switch allegiance because they have a bad game. Some so called "fans" should take a long hard look at what they type before they post. Opinion and critique are part of dialogue, communication and information exchange. The closing down of opinions you don't like is an action of oppression. Rather, tell us why you liked the bits we disliked.
Every season I say I won't watch again, but every season I go back. I'm a fan. Maybe not a fan like some of you but if we were all the same the world would be dull..
It's just a TV show at the end of the day, hardly something to abuse people over (whichever side of the fence you sit)
People who like what SM is doing with the show are accused of mindlessly supporting him and having no taste and being sheeple. And it really isn't all "If you don't like it, don't watch".
My point is: There's immaturity and maturity on both sides of the debate.
Often the accusation comes that they're being "shouted down" when it's merely someone with a different opinion saying so and disagreeing.
Some people actually expect all to agree with their opinion and are shocked/hurt when (somehow) some don't!
Most people on both sides of the fence are pretty reasonable most of the time.
Bah. You and your sensible and reasonable post. How very dare y......I agree. ;-)
I agree that Moff is no respecter of Death, but I didn't mind the 'grandstanding' by Missy; I thought of it as her Kneel before Zod moment, in a way. There aren't many beings in the Whoniverse who can pull that kind of thing off, on their own.
Quite right. How dare I!? >:( Mea culpa!:(
Bah, reasonable indeed!
I agree; however the frustration for somebody in the middle — this isn't my favourite era but it's enjoyable enough in its lightweight way and I can tell the difference between myself and the public at large — is hearing the assertion that viewing figures imply objectively that the programme is in trouble. They don't.
It'd be interesting to graph Doctor Who ratings over the years as a proportion of the BBC 1 average but that sort of data doesn't seem to be readily available.
If you had to ask me about the greatest potential threat to the programme's survival? Creative talent. After Moffat, who next? Maybe it'd be easier to switch back to a producer plus permanently rotating cast of writers? But does the BBC still permit such a structure?
As I said in my original post. Why not tell me why you think she's not? Otherwise you're just being contrary because someone doesn't agree with you.
I also note that not one of the uber fans who commented bothered to pick up on the positives I mentioned regarding the episode. It's like people want to be offended by critique ...
The bits with Davros were beautifully, dark. Everything I've always hoped for in a modern DW.
See, I'm not just being negative. It's called reasoned critique.