What also stuck in my mind was the statement I heard that immigrants don't account for a significant proportion of crime. I used to work in the court system and I know for a fact that's rubbish!! A significant percentage of the court lists on a daily basis were immigrants.
Productivity is a function of labour and capital investment.
All of what you say may well be the correct macro-economic examination answer. But outside of textbooks, productivity on a personal level is a willingness to get off your arse and do some work.
Some years ago I was in a position where I needed some brickwork doing. Easy enough: find a few local brickies, give 'em a call, get them round to give quotes ... give job to one who seems the most capable and reliable.
Except it didn't work out like that. Half of the ones I made appointments with didn't bother showing up. Of the 3 who did, 1 was "too busy" and the other 2 were quoting me over £300 a day.
Bemoaning my predicament to a neighbour I was soon given the mobile number of a Latvian chap (might have been Estonian) who not only turned up that same evening but did the whole job in 2 days for £400. Working from 8:00 until it was dark.
Absolutely no problems with the work and he made a few suggestions to improve what I had originally planned. 8 years later, the wall's still as good as new.
I encourage everyone who found this programme to be nothing more than a disgusting piece of propaganda to write to the BBC and let them know.
Their charter is up for review, and the should know that this sort of tripe is not playing in their favour.
Nonsense unless informing people of the factual statistical position is propaganda. Personal experience is not evidence of the situation as a whole. It's just the bit of life you experience. In some cases the people who held negative views of immigrants were basing that on what they'd read in the papers, not on actual experience. The programme showed people giving up on some (not all) of their preconceived ideas when actually interacting with immigrants.
It didn't paint a picture of perfection in immigrants either. The Somali didn't appear to want to integrate except on very narrow terms. The Polish builder only employed Polish workers.
If you claimed the BBC was twisting the facts in a complaint you would be very hard pushed to find evidence to support that view.
What also stuck in my mind was the statement I heard that immigrants don't account for a significant proportion of crime. I used to work in the court system and I know for a fact that's rubbish!! A significant percentage of the court lists on a daily basis were immigrants.
Yes and the bloke who said it worked in the court system too. Yet overall the stats show immigrants aren't over represented in crime rates. There will be hot spots in some areas of course. One person's experience working in a court is not statistically representative. He could have been in an area with a very high proportion of immigrants in which case most crime would be caused by the immigrant population.
Nick and Margaret are not in favour of immigration because they are liberals - they are capitalists who believe that immigration is good because it cuts the cost of labour, by pushing down wages.
Immigration is certainly very good for the well off in this country.
Nick also made a programme about making older people work longer before they get their pensions. That is another way of increasing competition for jobs and bringing down wages: good news for employers, for investors, and for property owners. Bad news for ordinary people.
Well, quite.
One of the factors that has allowed excessive immigration is this unholy alliance between the Left, who see immigration as atonement for imaginary past colonial sins, and business owners who see a supply of cheap, non-unionised labour that will increase their profits.
Not to mention the landlords and other infrastucture owners rubbing their hands at increased demand for housing, transport etc that will enable them to push up their prices and profits.
In the meantime, the poor indigenous sods at the bottom of the pile see their rents and fares increase, wages fall and no employment opportunites for their kids.
Almost all the growth in employment in the first decade of this century has gone to immigrant workers. We had what was probably a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a big dent in structural unemployment in this country and we just shipped in foreigners to do the new jobs.
While, like many in this thread, I am concerned about immigration, I genuinely don't think you can blame the immigrants themselves. They are acting completely ratiplonally and reasonably. The real villains, IMO, are the Government, the landlords and the employers who love unbridled immigration because it gives them a steady flow of disadvantaged people they can exploit.
Nonsense unless informing people of the factual statistical position is propaganda. Personal experience is not evidence of the situation as a whole. It's just the bit of life you experience. In some cases the people who held negative views of immigrants were basing that on what they'd read in the papers, not on actual experience. The programme showed people giving up on some (not all) of their preconceived ideas when actually interacting with immigrants.
It didn't paint a picture of perfection in immigrants either. The Somali didn't appear to want to integrate except on very narrow terms. The Polish builder only employed Polish workers.
If you claimed the BBC was twisting the facts in a complaint you would be very hard pushed to find evidence to support that view.
Very little statistical evidence provided, simply 'experiences' across a week.The premise of 'gain or drain' sidestepped alot of the cultural issues and focused on economics. Further, the 'financial gain' was clearly not felt by the less well off and probably most of the middle classes- quite the contrary.The idea that the nhs would collapse is a red herring - many people simply don't apply for nhs jobs because they dont think its a decent job anymore - that premise could easily be changed with some good marketing(nursing used to be regarded as a prestigious job in this country before it was perceived to be a job done only by immigrants) but nobody has bothered to address the issue, as we are too busy transporting foreigners to do it.My son actually said he didn't think you could be white and be a doctor, for heavens sake!
Almost all the growth in employment in the first decade of this century has gone to immigrant workers. We had what was probably a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a big dent in structural unemployment in this country and we just shipped in foreigners to do the new jobs.
So what was to stop all the "native" unemployed brits from filling those positions?
Was it that the job spec required Polish language skills? I don't think so. Was it that the jobs required skills that the local workforce didn't have? Possibly, but there is so much opportunity for government paid training courses that it's hard to see why that would fail.
Was it that the foreign workers were prepared to work for less money? Maybe we're getting closer now.
Or was it that the foreigners, who already had enough initiative to leave their home countries and travel, were simply more prepared to "get on their bikes" and go to the parts of the country where there was work - and then to do it? Rather than sit in their subsidised flats and collect their benefits?
If there's an increase in migrants from those countries, it stands to reason that there'd be a correspondent increase in crime by people of those nationalities.
One of the factors that has allowed excessive immigration is this unholy alliance between the Left, who see immigration as atonement for imaginary past colonial sins, and business owners who see a supply of cheap, non-unionised labour that will increase their profits.
You think the claims that sins were committed by colonial Britain are imaginary?
What I find ironic about the vast majority of people who moan about our immigration issues are in fact the sort of people who are themselves immigrants to countries like France, Spain, US and Australia etc!
I found this very entertaining viewing. Especially with Nick waffling on and on about nothing in particular and Margaret not quite knowing what to focus her eyes on.
Can't quite agree with the simplicity of your figures though in principle correct.Productivity is a function of labour and capital investment. Capital investment increases the productivity of labour. When labour is cheap capital investment is relatively more expensive, employers put off CI in favour of taking on more cheap workers. Business investment falls, as does productivity. When wages rise CI becomes relatively cheaper, business investment increases as CI is a derived demand that flows from increased labour costs. Productivity increases due to investment in labour saving capital. There is no puzzle. Productivity is low because wages are low, resulting in many manufacturers and employers putting off investment into labour saving capital. Wages MUST rise to increase investment and thereby productivity.
Is it a function? I would of seen productivity as an output.
One of the factors that has allowed excessive immigration is this unholy alliance between the Left, who see immigration as atonement for imaginary past colonial sins, and business owners who see a supply of cheap, non-unionised labour that will increase their profits.
Not to mention the landlords and other infrastucture owners rubbing their hands at increased demand for housing, transport etc that will enable them to push up their prices and profits.
In the meantime, the poor indigenous sods at the bottom of the pile see their rents and fares increase, wages fall and no employment opportunites for their kids.
The left don't encourage immigration as such. They don't oppose it, which is rather different. It's got nothing to do with past colonial sins either (some of which were far from imaginary). I've never heard anyone on the left argue that we should give jobs to immigrants in preference to British born people.
Ordinarily the Tories would be in favour of immigration too (capitalism having access to cheap labour). It's only because parties to the right of them have gained traction by portraying immigration as the source of our economic problems that they (and more recently Labour) have latched onto the issue too.
Almost all the growth in employment in the first decade of this century has gone to immigrant workers. We had what was probably a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a big dent in structural unemployment in this country and we just shipped in foreigners to do the new jobs.
Construction is booming at the moment. Are you really saying that few of those new jobs are being taken by British building workers?
In the late 90s and early 2000s we faced a demographic problem of an increasingly aging population and declining birth rates. Even if you try and encourage people to have more children there will be a shortfall of local people in employment to pay for those who are sick or retired. It's really not surprising that employers increasingly looked abroad for recruits.
We didn't ship people in in a centrally organised way. Immigration in this century is not like it was in the post war era when people were actively encouraged to come from the West Indies for example. People have come here because they've seen job opportunities, or their skills have been in demand. When skilled workers take years to train you can't fill vacancies with British people who simply don't yet have those skills. The NHS has to recruit abroad because there aren't enough British trained doctors and nurses to fill vacancies. In fact it has always done this. The alternative would be not to fill those posts for years while people were trained. Hardly an acceptable situation.
Another issue has been the increase in conflict around the world which has increased refugees and asylum seekers. We can't turn genuine cases away and they do need to be housed and to have jobs.
Employment is a free market, nothing was stopping British people taking new jobs. But the economic incentives for immigrants to take them was possibly higher than it was for British people to do so. Also the skills available locally might not have matched the job requirements.
Immigration is a net economic benefit, at least in the short term. Fewer immigrants are on benefits per head of population than locals and they pay taxes into the system like anyone else. Some create more jobs by starting businesses.
The economic arguments against immigration don't really stand up. I suggest that the real problem people have with immigration boils down to numbers and cultural differences. That together with the steady supply of stories in tabloids highlighting individual instances where immigrants have abused the system, ignoring the many who do not abuse it and contribute. It's hardly surprising that as there are few positive immigrant stories in the media people see immigration as a negative influence overall.
Our cities have always had large numbers of immigrants. Over time they become assimilated and a new wave from a different place enters. The same is true throughout the developed world. Anywhere there is a concentration of immigrants there are bound to be people who see immigration as a problem. But people should try and consider the bigger picture, not just local issues.
There are jobs out there, you have to be determined and put in 100% effort. Sometimes you have to work for a little less, it just means giving up ur SkyTv subscription and other luxuries.
I worked as a volunteer when i couldn't find a job just to gain some experience, 6 weeks later i found a job in a similar sector. I could sit here and complain about immigrants or i can get on with it, and yes i live in London
There are jobs out there, you have to be determined and put in 100% effort. Sometimes you have to work for a little less, it just means giving up ur SkyTv subscription and other luxuries.
I worked as a volunteer when i couldn't find a job just to gain some experience, 6 weeks later i found a job in a similar sector. I could sit here and complain about immigrants or i can get on with it, and yes i live in London
There are 2 million unemployed and 500,000 jobs available.
That means that 1.5 million people are NOT going to get a job no matter how hard they try.
If 1.5 million immigrants were NOT here, then that would free up 1.5 million jobs for people that are not immigrants and they could all have a job.
Funny old thing, facts.
Oh and that's assuming all the unemployed are not immigrants, which some of them will be, so we could get rid of them first and then even less employed immigrants would have to leave.
Comments
I work for a barrister and can concur with what you say. The truth is there has been a 40% increase in Romanians in our prisons and a 10% increase in Polish prisoners. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-crime-soars-with-foreign-prisoners-rising
Shoe Lane?
Some years ago I was in a position where I needed some brickwork doing. Easy enough: find a few local brickies, give 'em a call, get them round to give quotes ... give job to one who seems the most capable and reliable.
Except it didn't work out like that. Half of the ones I made appointments with didn't bother showing up. Of the 3 who did, 1 was "too busy" and the other 2 were quoting me over £300 a day.
Bemoaning my predicament to a neighbour I was soon given the mobile number of a Latvian chap (might have been Estonian) who not only turned up that same evening
Absolutely no problems with the work and he made a few suggestions to improve what I had originally planned. 8 years later, the wall's still as good as new.
It didn't paint a picture of perfection in immigrants either. The Somali didn't appear to want to integrate except on very narrow terms. The Polish builder only employed Polish workers.
If you claimed the BBC was twisting the facts in a complaint you would be very hard pushed to find evidence to support that view.
Well, quite.
One of the factors that has allowed excessive immigration is this unholy alliance between the Left, who see immigration as atonement for imaginary past colonial sins, and business owners who see a supply of cheap, non-unionised labour that will increase their profits.
Not to mention the landlords and other infrastucture owners rubbing their hands at increased demand for housing, transport etc that will enable them to push up their prices and profits.
In the meantime, the poor indigenous sods at the bottom of the pile see their rents and fares increase, wages fall and no employment opportunites for their kids.
Almost all the growth in employment in the first decade of this century has gone to immigrant workers. We had what was probably a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a big dent in structural unemployment in this country and we just shipped in foreigners to do the new jobs.
Agree totally
Very little statistical evidence provided, simply 'experiences' across a week.The premise of 'gain or drain' sidestepped alot of the cultural issues and focused on economics. Further, the 'financial gain' was clearly not felt by the less well off and probably most of the middle classes- quite the contrary.The idea that the nhs would collapse is a red herring - many people simply don't apply for nhs jobs because they dont think its a decent job anymore - that premise could easily be changed with some good marketing(nursing used to be regarded as a prestigious job in this country before it was perceived to be a job done only by immigrants) but nobody has bothered to address the issue, as we are too busy transporting foreigners to do it.My son actually said he didn't think you could be white and be a doctor, for heavens sake!
Was it that the job spec required Polish language skills? I don't think so. Was it that the jobs required skills that the local workforce didn't have? Possibly, but there is so much opportunity for government paid training courses that it's hard to see why that would fail.
Was it that the foreign workers were prepared to work for less money? Maybe we're getting closer now.
Or was it that the foreigners, who already had enough initiative to leave their home countries and travel, were simply more prepared to "get on their bikes" and go to the parts of the country where there was work - and then to do it? Rather than sit in their subsidised flats and collect their benefits?
A scuffle between a couple of kids isn't exactly national news material.
What sort of people would that be then?
It's a lot more than that for the poor people who live there which I would strongly suggest does not include you.
Newsflash! There is no-one alive today who is responsible for the empire!.
Well I was born in 77 and I sure as **** have nothing to feel guilty or responsible for.
Just as some people love to feel offended some people love to play the martyr.
Sad really. Time to look to the future.
We'll be having to apologise for the extinction of Neanderthals as well.
We were the immigrants then.
Put into context it's no big deal...
"According to the statistics, the number of Romanian inmates rose from 454 in September 2011 to 624 last month."
The program: 'The Great Romanian Invasion' shown last night provided evidence of the nonsense and scaremongering that has been spread by Farage.
Is it a function? I would of seen productivity as an output.
Ordinarily the Tories would be in favour of immigration too (capitalism having access to cheap labour). It's only because parties to the right of them have gained traction by portraying immigration as the source of our economic problems that they (and more recently Labour) have latched onto the issue too.
Construction is booming at the moment. Are you really saying that few of those new jobs are being taken by British building workers?
In the late 90s and early 2000s we faced a demographic problem of an increasingly aging population and declining birth rates. Even if you try and encourage people to have more children there will be a shortfall of local people in employment to pay for those who are sick or retired. It's really not surprising that employers increasingly looked abroad for recruits.
We didn't ship people in in a centrally organised way. Immigration in this century is not like it was in the post war era when people were actively encouraged to come from the West Indies for example. People have come here because they've seen job opportunities, or their skills have been in demand. When skilled workers take years to train you can't fill vacancies with British people who simply don't yet have those skills. The NHS has to recruit abroad because there aren't enough British trained doctors and nurses to fill vacancies. In fact it has always done this. The alternative would be not to fill those posts for years while people were trained. Hardly an acceptable situation.
Another issue has been the increase in conflict around the world which has increased refugees and asylum seekers. We can't turn genuine cases away and they do need to be housed and to have jobs.
Employment is a free market, nothing was stopping British people taking new jobs. But the economic incentives for immigrants to take them was possibly higher than it was for British people to do so. Also the skills available locally might not have matched the job requirements.
Immigration is a net economic benefit, at least in the short term. Fewer immigrants are on benefits per head of population than locals and they pay taxes into the system like anyone else. Some create more jobs by starting businesses.
The economic arguments against immigration don't really stand up. I suggest that the real problem people have with immigration boils down to numbers and cultural differences. That together with the steady supply of stories in tabloids highlighting individual instances where immigrants have abused the system, ignoring the many who do not abuse it and contribute. It's hardly surprising that as there are few positive immigrant stories in the media people see immigration as a negative influence overall.
Our cities have always had large numbers of immigrants. Over time they become assimilated and a new wave from a different place enters. The same is true throughout the developed world. Anywhere there is a concentration of immigrants there are bound to be people who see immigration as a problem. But people should try and consider the bigger picture, not just local issues.
"da immgwants r taking all aw jobs"
Sure they are.
There are jobs out there, you have to be determined and put in 100% effort. Sometimes you have to work for a little less, it just means giving up ur SkyTv subscription and other luxuries.
I worked as a volunteer when i couldn't find a job just to gain some experience, 6 weeks later i found a job in a similar sector. I could sit here and complain about immigrants or i can get on with it, and yes i live in London
There are 2 million unemployed and 500,000 jobs available.
That means that 1.5 million people are NOT going to get a job no matter how hard they try.
If 1.5 million immigrants were NOT here, then that would free up 1.5 million jobs for people that are not immigrants and they could all have a job.
Funny old thing, facts.
Oh and that's assuming all the unemployed are not immigrants, which some of them will be, so we could get rid of them first and then even less employed immigrants would have to leave.