His Viennese Waltz was a travesty. They could have danced it again yesterday and call it an American smooth. And it still would not be completely right. It's just interchangeable faffing about. Judges should penalise for the "storytelling". It's all the rage this series and it's spoiling it for me. I am disappointed in Artem and his generic showdance choreographies.
I'm so glad someone started this thread, this has been one of my biggest gripes ( a few others too) about SCD. Artem should have been told long ago, to choreograph the dance he is given or take a risk and receive low scores. I can only imagine, if I was lining up in a comp and Waltz music came on, we decided to turn it into a AS breaking out of hold all over the place, we would be told to leave the floor right then and there.
I really don't understand the judges, particularly Len. He ignored the fact that Artem was dancing a different dance, but he congratulated Brendan on dancing an authentic VW.!! So if he acknowledged the pro dancing what he was given, why not pull up Artem, then reward him with a decent score.
I agree with the OP. Artem's choreography is ruining my enjoyment of what could have been a great series. Not helped by their music choices, which I attribute to Natalie as she has alluded to picking the songs; apart from samba week they all follow a theme (songs by black artists, typically R&B)
Artem has kept her in even though she's possibly not that popular.
And the evidence for this statement is...?
She's kept in by people who like her dancing/her personality/the partnership, as has been since the start of Strictly. Attributing people staying in to the pro is one of my biggest bugbears on this forum as it's clearly rubbish. Every pro will be out of the competition in week 1 with a celeb the public don't take to, as has been shown time and time again.
Artem's 'dances' may appeal to a section of the public but those who want to see a proper ballroom dance will not be impressed.
As a section of the public sonic may be referring to - i.e. a non-dancer - I can say that of my time watching Strictly, I do have an idea of what is expected for most dances with the exception of faster, less distinct Latins. Mind you, as they are often referred to as Salsambachas on this forum, it isn't just a problem for us non-dancers but the Strictly pros and judges too
Back to last night, I was disappointed with Artem's choreography as I felt it was practically a replica of the dance they performed on the Halloween show, which I believe also came in for criticism from Len for the same reason - i.e. not enough of the dance it was supposed to be showcasing. If Artem is going to go off-script, I'd prefer him to be more avant garde - his Black Swan routine was sublime - and not give something so similar to something seen just a few weeks prior, especially when the staging and costumes were inferior to the original.
Having said that, Natalie danced beautifully last night and I'm torn over her scoring.
After Halloween night, Karen Hardy said Len was right to deduct points if the celeb has not performed the dance they have been given to perform. That's the whole point of being given specific dances - learn them in a week, show us what you have learned on the show. Seems fair enough.
However, on the same night Nartem are penalised, Abbey dances a Salsa that apparently isn't a Salsa and gets four 10s (I'm relying on the opinion of the dancers on this forum, I thought Abbey deserved every point of her marks). As I said in my first paragraph, there is a history of Latin dances not being true to their individual roots on this show and I think its about time the judges stopped excusing one discipline whilst penalising another.
I hope both dances are dissected by Ms Hardy on ITT this week and I look forward to what she has to say.
Meanwhile, with his most competent celeb dancer yet, Artem really needs to up his choreography if he doesn't want some of us to think he has squandered an opportunity this year.
Plus for Natalie a perfect score would never be accepted by her detractors. So having something to pick holes in is very useful.
You're quite wrong Mona. I have said elsewhere, that I feel of all the contestants it is Natalie's scores that are manufactured the most (in her case, downwards), presumably to appease folk like me who think a pre-trained line has been crossed. I find it condescending to all involved - judges, Natalie, Artem and more importantly the audience.
As a section of the public sonic may be referring to - i.e. a non-dancer - I can say that of my time watching Strictly, I do have an idea of what is expected for most dances with the exception of faster, less distinct Latins. Mind you, as they are often referred to as Salsambachas on this forum, it isn't just a problem for us non-dancers but the Strictly pros and judges too
Back to last night, I was disappointed with Artem's choreography as I felt it was practically a replica of the dance they performed on the Halloween show, which I believe also came in for criticism from Len for the same reason - i.e. not enough of the dance it was supposed to be showcasing. If Artem is going to go off-script, I'd prefer him to be more avant garde - his Black Swan routine was sublime - and not give something so similar to something seen just a few weeks prior, especially when the staging and costumes were inferior to the original.
Having said that, Natalie danced beautifully last night and I'm torn over her scoring.
After Halloween night, Karen Hardy said Len was right to deduct points if the celeb has not performed the dance they have been given to perform. That's the whole point of being given specific dances - learn them in a week, show us what you have learned on the show. Seems fair enough.
However, on the same night Nartem are penalised, Abbey dances a Salsa that apparently isn't a Salsa and gets four 10s (I'm relying on the opinion of the dancers on this forum, I thought Abbey deserved every point of her marks). As I said in my first paragraph, there is a history of Latin dances not being true to their individual roots on this show and I think its about time the judges stopped excusing one discipline whilst penalising another.
I hope both dances are dissected by Ms Hardy on ITT this week and I look forward to what she has to say.
Meanwhile, with his most competent celeb dancer yet, Artem really needs to up his choreography if he doesn't want some of us to think he has squandered an opportunity this year.
You're quite wrong Mona. I have said elsewhere, that I feel of all the contestants it is Natalie's scores that are manufactured (downwards) the most, presumably to appease folk like me who think a pre-trained line has been crossed. I find it condescending to all involved - judges, Natalie, Artem and more importantly the audience.
The irony I would throw into the mix is that Artem generally choreographs the Latin dances more to the dance style. He just really has an issue with the ballroom music/style.
As for the pre-training it has ever been thus since the show started, with Claire Sweeney another former Italia Conti alumni in the first series. Why has it been such an issue this year?
Artem's choreography is entertaining, but often bears little similarity to the actual dance its supposed to represent.
When this point is put to him, he just says he knows, but its what he wanted to do.
On a side note, its was good to see last night that Natalie's life threatening back injury is so much better.:rolleyes:
As for the pre-training it has ever been thus since the show started, with Claire Sweeney another former Italia Conti alumni in the first series. Why has it been such an issue this year?
It isn't the Italia Conti schooling that bothers me, but the fact Natalie has danced all her life. Trained from the age of four...gah, she would have been a contestant on SYTYCD if her back hadn't given her jip.
ETA: The Italia Conti point is only relevant if the contestant specialised in dancing, as Natalie did. You can attend IC without ever dancing a step
As for Abbey's "salsa" it seems judges are more forgiving if a dancer mastered something perfectly even if it's not the dance they should be doing. But if you do something else and not so good either they will tell you. Len ripped into Louis Smith and his Dirty Dancing "salsa", because it was a copy of the film dance. Artem is testing his patience now, turning in-hold dances into some generic out-of-hold flying around the dance floor.
Exactly they've been shown time and time again. I think the public want exciting modern twists to dances.
No casual viewers I have spoken to have expressed that view. They watch Strictly because it is different from the dancing you commonly see elsewhere i.e. For the Ballroom and Latin.
Actually I think it is Artem's choreography that is looking samey and unadventurous. He is the one who seems to only operate within his own comfort zone in preferring to choreograph a particular style of dance . If you keep choreographing the same sort of dance then it becomes repetitive and unexciting. That is why we have one American Smooth and one Showdance for each couple (and indeed one Quickstep, Jive or whatever). It is to make the performance of each dance a distinguishable special event.
Len would have given that dance higher marks on DWTS and the audience would have loved it. Maybe they are on the wrong show and need to be somewhere where their talents are appreciated.
It isn't the Italia Conti schooling that bothers me, but the fact Natalie has danced all her life. Trained from the age of four...gah, she would have been a contestant on SYTYCD if her back hadn't given her jip.
Jill Halfpenny followed up season 2, another long time dancer without all the back problems or 10 year gaps in dancing.
I suspect Natalie looked so finished at the start because she trained too hard, as a result polishing the life out of it. Anyone who is prepared to put the time in will look better than someone who is snatching a few hours training after work.
What she should have done is less training to start with & built up the hours as the series progressed.
What I find annoying is Aliona was criticised every week with rav and most weeks with Matt and eventually she gave in and choreographed fantastic routines that appeal to public and judges.
It seems that if the judges like the Celeb they'll be far more lenient over choreography, which is a bit unfair.
Len would have given that dance higher marks on DWTS and the audience would have loved it. Maybe they are on the wrong show and need to be somewhere where their talents are appreciated.
Maybe substitute the word "appreciated" with "more suited" and you might have a point.
My opinion is that Artems dances are all looking the same, nothing much new. I'm ignoring the fact that he ignores the fact that he dances whatever he likes instead of what he has been given. All dances, whether they are Ballroom or Latin have very distinct characteristics, and when you are learning, you have to learn how to dance each dance to show this, and I don't mean just learning steps.Artem breaks the "rules" each week.
This show is not a version of "SYTYCD" or simlilar where you can dance what you like, but it IS Ballroom and Latin based. Even though Bruno and Craig are more into showdancing, even they, after appearing on SCD since the start, must have gained enough knowledge to see that Artem is not dancing the dance he is given? I see that he doesn't feel the need to "feel the story" so much in Latin, as his Latin is quite authentic. Perhaps he feels / knows that his Ballroom is not up to scratch?
Artems choreography is beautiful to watch - but this is a competition with a few rules (?) for all to follow. They are given (or choose) a specific dance each week - last week Sophie & Brendan got a roasting for not doing a 'proper' Rumba - according to Bruno it should have been more raunchy to be classed as a Rumba. This week Bruno seems fine with Artem not following the rules though.
What is the point of there being specific dances if one pro is allowed to choreograph nothing but A/S and show dances. Surely it's more of a challenge to choreograph the dance to fill the dance requirements and tell the story at the same time. He is very good, no question but there is a danger of them all blending into 'one' style.
Just to make my position clear I love A/S and would definitely say it was my favourite - probably because my mother was a major fan of Fred Astair and Gene Kelley so I grew up watching those. The first Strictly dance I saw was Artem and Holly Valances Jive - and I was blown away by his sophisticated take on it - but it was still recognisably a jive!
Throw a few new things into the mix by all means but don't throw the 'mix' out altogether.
Forgot to say he isn't showcasing Natalies ballroom - in hold - skills unfortunately either.
Jill Halfpenny followed up season 2, another long time dancer without all the back problems or 10 year gaps in dancing.
I suspect Natalie looked so finished at the start because she trained too hard, as a result polishing the life out of it. Anyone who is prepared to put the time in will look better than someone who is snatching a few hours training after work.
What she should have done is less training to start with & built up the hours as the series progressed.
As Rufus pointed out on ITT this week, after eleven series the Strictly audience is far more savvy than it was in its early years. Having said that, I didn't watch either of the two years you mentioned, but do know that it was a beginner and not Claire who won the first series of Strictly, so maybe Jill won despite her training (though she herself denied it?) and not because of it.
Artems choreography is beautiful to watch - but this is a competition with a few rules (?) for all to follow. They are given (or choose) a specific dance each week - last week Sophie & Brendan got a roasting for not doing a 'proper' Rumba - according to Bruno it should have been more raunchy to be classed as a Rumba. This week Bruno seems fine with Artem not following the rules though. What is the point of there being specific dances if one pro is allowed to choreograph nothing but A/S and show dances. Surely it's more of a challenge to choreograph the dance to fill the dance requirements and tell the story at the same time. He is very good, no question but there is a danger of them all blending into 'one' style.
Just to make my position clear I love A/S and would definitely say it was my favourite - probably because my mother was a major fan of Fred Astair and Gene Kelley so I grew up watching those. The first Strictly dance I saw was Artem and Holly Valances Jive - and I was blown away by his sophisticated take on it - but it was still recognisably a jive!
Throw a few new things into the mix by all means but don't throw the 'mix' out altogether.
Forgot to say he isn't showcasing Natalies ballroom - in hold - skills unfortunately either.
Agree with all your points and in particular the one I have bolded. I think Artem has the dancer's equivalent of writer's block currently.
Some posters have suggested the lack of hold is linked to Natalie's bad back. The BBC medics are supposed to ensure the celebs are fit to perform, so this is either not the case and she is perfectly able physically, or Natalie should have retired when it became apparent she would not be able to perform the dances they are set, (instead of conspiring with Artem to repeatedly avoid performing specific dance disciplines, if there is any truth to the back issue).
I agree with the OP. Artem's choreography is ruining my enjoyment of what could have been a great series. Not helped by their music choices, which I attribute to Natalie as she has alluded to picking the songs; apart from samba week they all follow a theme (songs by black artists, typically R&B)
As far as I am aware, the pro's don't pick the songs, they are given to them.
They also have no say in the Theme or Costumes (maybe input in colour).
Basically the only thing the Pros have full control of is the Choreography.
Why would being Ballroom hold affect Natalies back ? There should be no impact on the ladies back, certainly no "bending" over the create a false top line shape ? She is fit enough to go on the trapeze though...
Why would being Ballroom hold affect Natalies back ? There should be no impact on the ladies back, certainly no "bending" over the create a false top line shape ? She is fit enough to go on the trapeze though...
As pointed out elsewhere. Hanging suspended is a marvellous treatment for back problems. Plus she has all the best treatments instantly available. Just like sports people who get injured are often back on the pitch in minutes.
The ballroom hold with the neck extended to create the vase shape puts a strain on the lower back. Which is exactly where Natalie's back problem is. She also disappeared after her dance for some 20 minutes.
Why would being Ballroom hold affect Natalies back ? There should be no impact on the ladies back, certainly no "bending" over the create a false top line shape ? She is fit enough to go on the trapeze though...
I agree that ballroom dancers don't have to artificially arch their back to get the right look (that's not how it works at all) and I never feel any strain on my back. I don't know if a bad back would stop someone from extending leftwards though? Her topline isn't as good as I was expecting from her.
The ballroom hold with the neck extended to create the vase shape puts a strain on the lower back. Which is exactly where Natalie's back problem is. She also disappeared after her dance for some 20 minutes.
Monagg, My female dance teacher (a professional competitor) tells me specifically not to bend backwards because of the strain on the lower back. It's not how you get 'the look' which is to some extent an illusion caused by stretching and rotation.
It isn't the Italia Conti schooling that bothers me, but the fact Natalie has danced all her life. Trained from the age of four...gah, she would have been a contestant on SYTYCD if her back hadn't given her jip.
ETA: The Italia Conti point is only relevant if the contestant specialised in dancing, as Natalie did. You can attend IC without ever dancing a step
Hi Smokeychan. I don't think she did specialise in dancing at IC. According to wiki she graduated in 2003 from a three-year course in Acting and Musical Theatre. There's a citation for that info which I haven't followed up, so can't be sure it's correct . Clearly this course would involve dancing - and perhaps she was able to pursue dance as a specialty within it (I couldn't say) - but it doesn't sound to me that she went there to train as a pro dancer. (<not exactly what you were saying, I realise, but often said by some )
Comments
I really don't understand the judges, particularly Len. He ignored the fact that Artem was dancing a different dance, but he congratulated Brendan on dancing an authentic VW.!! So if he acknowledged the pro dancing what he was given, why not pull up Artem, then reward him with a decent score.
And the evidence for this statement is...?
She's kept in by people who like her dancing/her personality/the partnership, as has been since the start of Strictly. Attributing people staying in to the pro is one of my biggest bugbears on this forum as it's clearly rubbish. Every pro will be out of the competition in week 1 with a celeb the public don't take to, as has been shown time and time again.
As a section of the public sonic may be referring to - i.e. a non-dancer - I can say that of my time watching Strictly, I do have an idea of what is expected for most dances with the exception of faster, less distinct Latins. Mind you, as they are often referred to as Salsambachas on this forum, it isn't just a problem for us non-dancers but the Strictly pros and judges too
Back to last night, I was disappointed with Artem's choreography as I felt it was practically a replica of the dance they performed on the Halloween show, which I believe also came in for criticism from Len for the same reason - i.e. not enough of the dance it was supposed to be showcasing. If Artem is going to go off-script, I'd prefer him to be more avant garde - his Black Swan routine was sublime - and not give something so similar to something seen just a few weeks prior, especially when the staging and costumes were inferior to the original.
Having said that, Natalie danced beautifully last night and I'm torn over her scoring.
After Halloween night, Karen Hardy said Len was right to deduct points if the celeb has not performed the dance they have been given to perform. That's the whole point of being given specific dances - learn them in a week, show us what you have learned on the show. Seems fair enough.
However, on the same night Nartem are penalised, Abbey dances a Salsa that apparently isn't a Salsa and gets four 10s (I'm relying on the opinion of the dancers on this forum, I thought Abbey deserved every point of her marks). As I said in my first paragraph, there is a history of Latin dances not being true to their individual roots on this show and I think its about time the judges stopped excusing one discipline whilst penalising another.
I hope both dances are dissected by Ms Hardy on ITT this week and I look forward to what she has to say.
Meanwhile, with his most competent celeb dancer yet, Artem really needs to up his choreography if he doesn't want some of us to think he has squandered an opportunity this year.
You're quite wrong Mona. I have said elsewhere, that I feel of all the contestants it is Natalie's scores that are manufactured the most (in her case, downwards), presumably to appease folk like me who think a pre-trained line has been crossed. I find it condescending to all involved - judges, Natalie, Artem and more importantly the audience.
As for the pre-training it has ever been thus since the show started, with Claire Sweeney another former Italia Conti alumni in the first series. Why has it been such an issue this year?
When this point is put to him, he just says he knows, but its what he wanted to do.
On a side note, its was good to see last night that Natalie's life threatening back injury is so much better.:rolleyes:
It isn't the Italia Conti schooling that bothers me, but the fact Natalie has danced all her life. Trained from the age of four...gah, she would have been a contestant on SYTYCD if her back hadn't given her jip.
ETA: The Italia Conti point is only relevant if the contestant specialised in dancing, as Natalie did. You can attend IC without ever dancing a step
No casual viewers I have spoken to have expressed that view. They watch Strictly because it is different from the dancing you commonly see elsewhere i.e. For the Ballroom and Latin.
Actually I think it is Artem's choreography that is looking samey and unadventurous. He is the one who seems to only operate within his own comfort zone in preferring to choreograph a particular style of dance . If you keep choreographing the same sort of dance then it becomes repetitive and unexciting. That is why we have one American Smooth and one Showdance for each couple (and indeed one Quickstep, Jive or whatever). It is to make the performance of each dance a distinguishable special event.
I suspect Natalie looked so finished at the start because she trained too hard, as a result polishing the life out of it. Anyone who is prepared to put the time in will look better than someone who is snatching a few hours training after work.
What she should have done is less training to start with & built up the hours as the series progressed.
It seems that if the judges like the Celeb they'll be far more lenient over choreography, which is a bit unfair.
Maybe substitute the word "appreciated" with "more suited" and you might have a point.
This show is not a version of "SYTYCD" or simlilar where you can dance what you like, but it IS Ballroom and Latin based. Even though Bruno and Craig are more into showdancing, even they, after appearing on SCD since the start, must have gained enough knowledge to see that Artem is not dancing the dance he is given? I see that he doesn't feel the need to "feel the story" so much in Latin, as his Latin is quite authentic. Perhaps he feels / knows that his Ballroom is not up to scratch?
What is the point of there being specific dances if one pro is allowed to choreograph nothing but A/S and show dances. Surely it's more of a challenge to choreograph the dance to fill the dance requirements and tell the story at the same time. He is very good, no question but there is a danger of them all blending into 'one' style.
Just to make my position clear I love A/S and would definitely say it was my favourite - probably because my mother was a major fan of Fred Astair and Gene Kelley so I grew up watching those. The first Strictly dance I saw was Artem and Holly Valances Jive - and I was blown away by his sophisticated take on it - but it was still recognisably a jive!
Throw a few new things into the mix by all means but don't throw the 'mix' out altogether.
Forgot to say he isn't showcasing Natalies ballroom - in hold - skills unfortunately either.
As Rufus pointed out on ITT this week, after eleven series the Strictly audience is far more savvy than it was in its early years. Having said that, I didn't watch either of the two years you mentioned, but do know that it was a beginner and not Claire who won the first series of Strictly, so maybe Jill won despite her training (though she herself denied it?) and not because of it.
Agree with all your points and in particular the one I have bolded. I think Artem has the dancer's equivalent of writer's block currently.
Some posters have suggested the lack of hold is linked to Natalie's bad back. The BBC medics are supposed to ensure the celebs are fit to perform, so this is either not the case and she is perfectly able physically, or Natalie should have retired when it became apparent she would not be able to perform the dances they are set, (instead of conspiring with Artem to repeatedly avoid performing specific dance disciplines, if there is any truth to the back issue).
As far as I am aware, the pro's don't pick the songs, they are given to them.
They also have no say in the Theme or Costumes (maybe input in colour).
Basically the only thing the Pros have full control of is the Choreography.
As pointed out elsewhere. Hanging suspended is a marvellous treatment for back problems. Plus she has all the best treatments instantly available. Just like sports people who get injured are often back on the pitch in minutes.
The ballroom hold with the neck extended to create the vase shape puts a strain on the lower back. Which is exactly where Natalie's back problem is. She also disappeared after her dance for some 20 minutes.
I agree that ballroom dancers don't have to artificially arch their back to get the right look (that's not how it works at all) and I never feel any strain on my back. I don't know if a bad back would stop someone from extending leftwards though? Her topline isn't as good as I was expecting from her.
Monagg, My female dance teacher (a professional competitor) tells me specifically not to bend backwards because of the strain on the lower back. It's not how you get 'the look' which is to some extent an illusion caused by stretching and rotation.
Hi Smokeychan. I don't think she did specialise in dancing at IC. According to wiki she graduated in 2003 from a three-year course in Acting and Musical Theatre. There's a citation for that info which I haven't followed up, so can't be sure it's correct