It's not just about Phil being a bully and then listing what Ben has done and comparing it. Phil is Ben's Dad and his dreadful parenting has resulted in Ben and all his flaws.
No one's denied Phil's a bad dad. But Ben's flaws are not enterily from Phil, and furthermore there is the element of personal responsibility; many on the square you'll find have grown up in broken and fractured famillies, but have not killed someone.
Phil himself admitted as much at the end of tonight's episode.
Phil feels guilty about what Ben's become; that is a natural emotion. That isn't though a conclusive point in Ben's behaviour being enterily down to Phil, as you assert.
If Ben has manipulted the situation until only him and Phil are left isn't that because he is desperate for Phil's sole attention? Having said that I'm not sure this is as straight forward as that as I think Ben's reactions are as much those of a killer trying not to be found out and Phil too.
No; it's about Ben trying to cover his tracks. He knew Shirley was desperate to find Heather's killer, and it would only be a matter of time once there was no else to take the blame for it, that Shirley would find out Ben's involvement. So, he manipulated Phil to get rid of her, so she wasn't so close to home. Ben began to manipulate Jay just hours after Heather's murder, because he detected him as a weak link, and saw that Jay's loyalty to him was now in tatters. Ben is a socio-path. He does not love, he does not empathise - that is how he could kill Heather in cold blood, and feel no remorse about it. Ben wants to control Phil, in some way or another - he doesn't love him. He stalked him for months, and try to get him sent down for murder, and was very happy to see Phil rot in jail. Phil's conflicted by family loyalty, to Ben but also the death of an innocent woman, who was the best friend of Shirley, a woman he cares for, as well as of course, how Ben has turned out and his own involvement in that. Phil, is filled the guilt; Ben is not.
Regarding Roxy I thought Ben accidently got blood on Roxy's coat Didn't he try to wash it before she found it? And regarding killing Heather it was an accidental consequence of trying to get her out of the way to steal her money. Quite frankkly regarding Phil it's juts a case of there by the grace of god. It's the exact kind of thing that could have happened to him in his awful, awful past.
Ben deliberately hugged Roxy to put the blood on her coat. It's only when he contemplated the repercussions of his actions, that he frantically rushed to wash the coat, in the same way he only abandon plans to frame Jay for murder, when Phil stepped in. Heather's death was not accidental. Ben, once he had come to Heather's house had done so with the intention of doing some malicious to her. He deliberately picked up a weapon a hit Heather with it; in order to retrieve money, or whatever else he wanted from Heather. After the murder, Ben showed no remorse, even laughing about it, being pretty sure he would get off, until Phil pointed out he was sixteen. At the dinner table, he began making jokes about her, and subsequently did so in the days after. He has even kept the murder weapon as a prize. Ben actions were deliberate; those actions were not accidental. And Phil, has never killed someone, regardless of wherther you assert hypothetical situations on the matter. Even in Phil's indirect involvement in Dennis Rickman's death; he was conflicted, and felt guilt, which is more than can be said of Ben.
Ben is a result of Phil's bad parenting. How can anyone not see that? And talk about selective memory. Ben did not abuse Mo's baby, it was an accident.
It wasn't an accident; Ben later admitted he purposely hit Freddie Mitchell, and furthermore was prepared to see to shit hit the fan regarding Little Mo. Ben's actions cannot wholly be blamed on Phil, Phil was not responsible for Ben's deliberate actions regarding Freddie. Ben was already prepared to hurt a child, before he even met Phil.
Ben abused Stella :eek: He was a child and she physically and mentally abused him to the degree he attempted the same with his sister
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Ben orginally abused Stella - then after a visit to the London Dungeon, Stella began to abuse Ben.
I accept Phil is a product of awful parenting himself but instead of rising above it he's gone and done the same and worse to his family(s).
The exact same could be said for Ben. In fact, it is exactly the same for Ben. Ben knows right and wrong; and in the end it is up to Ben the choices he makes in life. He choose to hurt Freddie Mitchell, Louise Mitchell, Patrick, Glenda, Christian, and Heather. He did not rise above his dad's behaviour; in fact he's gone and out done it all.
Yes Phil prefers Jay because Jay is a good person but why does Phil get to judge morality and get to side with the good person with his disgusting track record? And without a doubt Phil's judgement of Jay as a good person includes him being 'manly' as far as Phil is concerned :rolleyes:
I'm not siding Phil with Jay, simply saying why Phil prefers Jay to Ben. Phil likes Jay for more than just boxing and fixing cars; but because of Jay's morality. He's a good kid, he works hard, and treats people with kindness and respect. Jay has been through hardship like Ben has - his grandma and mother both died of cancer, he witnessed his dad's death, he got involved in a gang which stabbed him, was betrayed by Billy on Jase's death, and was physically abused by him too. Yet Jay grew up, became mature, and learned the element of responsibility; that Ben has yet to learn. Ben and Jay both have had their fair share of tradgey, but made different choices in life.
Princess, obviously there is personal responsibility but like you mentioned the bad deal thrown Phil's way I'm mentioning the bad deal thrown Ben's. Phil was physically abused by his Dad and his enviroment forced him to grow up tough. Ben had meningitis when he was born which left him deaf in one ear. His dad was an alcoholic that beat his mum. He lived with her in what we assume was a happy home until she and his step Dad died tragically and he returned to Britain when he was 10, he'd only lived in the UK as a baby.
He was clearly different and his Dad showed him quickly and often that he didn't like his differences. Louise arrives and Ben is massively insecure. She steals his diary and writes in it pretending he is gay. She rocks his world in a bad way and he punishes her using the exact tactics Stella has used on him.
Ben killed Heather accidentally and he put blood on Roxy's coat accidentally, you have that wrong. Ben is an awful person but he's a result of an unloving, bad parent and he's sad and desperate. Phil is an old lush that can't be saved or become better. He knows he's done wrong by Ben and he knows he can never love him properly. Phil hates himself for this but keeps letting Ben know how he feels about him.
Undoubtedly Jay is more moral and good than these 2 put together but it's not up to Phil to see this and like him more because of it. In fact it's outrageous for him who has lived his life in such a disgraceful and disgusting way to look at his son who is a product of all that and go 'I don't like you much. I think I'll go with Jay as he's nicer' And it's kind of useless to point out how Jay overcame things because as much as Ben didn't overcome things Phil didn't either.
Princess, obviously there is personal responsibility but like you mentioned the bad deal thrown Phil's way I'm mentioning the bad deal thrown Ben's.
But I didn't mention Eric Mitchell to excuse all of Phil's bad behaviour; I mentioned Eric to illustrate what I saw as a double standard in your argument regarding Ben, and the overall point of personal responsibility.
Phil was physically abused by his Dad and his enviroment forced him to grow up tough. Ben had meningitis when he was born which left him deaf in one ear. His dad was an alcoholic that beat his mum. He lived with her in what we assume was a happy home until she and his step Dad died tragically and he returned to Britain when he was 10, he'd only lived in the UK as a baby.
Again, we know this - we've been over it. That doesn't change the fact Ben arrived in Albert Square as child with the potential to act on impluse and cause serious damage, with a dark, mean streak.
He was clearly different and his Dad showed him quickly and often that he didn't like his differences. Louise arrives and Ben is massively insecure. She steals his diary and writes in it pretending he is gay. She rocks his world in a bad way and he punishes her using the exact tactics Stella has used on him.
And? Actions speak louder than words. What Louise did was wrong, but Louise's immature behaviour does not add legitmacy towards' Ben's own response, which was out of line, and uncalled for.
Ben killed Heather accidentally and he put blood on Roxy's coat accidentally, you have that wrong.
I repeat again; my assertion regarding Ben as you have not refuted it; but rather denied it;
Heather's death was not accidental. Ben, once he had come to Heather's house had done so with the intention of doing some malicious to her. He deliberately picked up a weapon a hit Heather with it; in order to retrieve money, or whatever else he wanted from Heather. After the murder, Ben showed no remorse, even laughing about it, being pretty sure he would get off, until Phil pointed out he was sixteen. At the dinner table, he began making jokes about her, and subsequently did so in the days after
And on Roxy; Ben had the choice to handsake her and explain the blood on his hands; he didn't. Instead, he sneakily hugged her with the blood on his hands.
Ben is an awful person but he's a result of an unloving, bad parent and he's sad and desperate. Phil is an old lush that can't be saved or become better. He knows he's done wrong by Ben and he knows he can never love him properly. Phil hates himself for this but keeps letting Ben know how he feels about him.
Ben came to square being able to hurt in cold blood; without meeting Phil. I don't deny environmental factors, such as Phil's parenting have played a part in Ben's sociopathy. What I do deny though, is that Phil's parenting is the single conclusive reason for it; because it is clear Ben was a sociopath even when he first came to the square. You can argue Phil excaberated that, you can argue Phil was a terrible parent who only beginning to realise so now, but you cannot blame Ben's sociopathy enterily on Phil; it leaves many questions unanswered and is an inconclusive verdict as a result.
Undoubtedly Jay is more moral and good than these 2 put together but it's not up to Phil to see this and like him more because of it. In fact it's outrageous for him who has lived his life in such a disgraceful and disgusting way to look at his son who is a product of all that and go 'I don't like you much. I think I'll go with Jay as he's nicer' And it's kind of useless to point out how Jay overcame things because as much as Ben didn't overcome things Phil didn't either.
It's enterily up to Phil if he wants to think of Jay better than Ben. Your argument that Phil's hyprocrisy means he can't genuinely have more warmer feelings towards Jay than Ben is one that isn't quite logical; mainly because (a. Ben has choosen to commit the actions he has (b. Phil is not the single cause of all of Ben's problems. It's not useless at all the point out Jay overcame things. In fact, I wouldn't word it that way at all, as it misconstrues my point enterily; which is that Ben's bad childhood is not sufficent basis for the subsequent choices he made in life, to be blamed on Phil. In life, you make choices. Ben and Jay, both made theirs, and that is why there dynamic is interesting. Jay chose to be a good person, because he wanted to be. Ben chose to be a bad person because he thought his victimhood made it a legitmate thing to do.
I'm so glad they are showing Jay cracking under the pressure - when it all comes out, hopefully people will see that he had to go along with it all and didn't want to at all.
Jay's development since Heather's murder has been truly brilliant. His involvement, through no fault of his own, in the killing of an innocent woman has led him down a path of complete self-loathing. Diametrically; the actual perpetrator of the crime could not care less about what has happened. All he is phased by is the possibility of getting caught - no sorrow or remorse for the woman he killed; a woman who had only ever been nice to him. In fact, he is almost proud of his 'accomplishment', there is a certain air of arrogance surrounding him now that he knows he is capable of killing somebody and (so far) getting away with it. He committed the crime, and yet Jay is the one paying for it, mentally.
A really brilliant little narrative here, one of the most interesting dynamics on the show, along with Ben and Phil. The complete displacement of guilt has given the storyline another great layer. The boy who committed the crime feels no guilt whatsoever; and the boy who bore accidental witness is torturing himself. His questions to Abi tonight; "Why are you with me? You're clever, kind, beautiful.. why are you with somebody like me?" were incredibly poignant. He despises himself for what 'he' has done, yet he hasn't actually done anything other than get caught up in a misguided conspiracy to conceal a murder. He has lost all sense of self worth because of what he has become embroiled in; whereas Ben - the actual killer - couldn't care less about what he has done, or how it has affected those around him.
Jay has completely flourished in the past few months and Jamie Borthwick, in my opinion, has proven himself as the best young talent the show has had in years. He is without peers. He deserves to be at the front of the show in a few years time.
Another fantastic performance from Jamie. Jay asking Abby why she was with him was soo sad, you can really feel what Jay is thinking and is one of the most realistic characters on the show and thats all down to Jamie's great performances. EE need to sign him up for the next 10 years at least as Jay for me can become one of the shows biggest ever characters. As an actor he is up there with the two Grade A's-Jake Wood & Steve Mcfadden, matches the Grade B's-Adam Woodyate & Perry Fenwick and easily outclasses everyone else. I wonder where all this will lead for Jay?, its becoming clear that he is hating himself for what he has done and being part of. Male anoxeria has often been talked about on here with Jay as the chosen character and I can defintely think with his current story that it would be realistic for Jay to develop such problems either that or self harm storyline.
Another fantastic performance from Jamie. Jay asking Abby why she was with him was soo sad, you can really feel what Jay is thinking and is one of the most realistic characters on the show and thats all down to Jamie's great performances. EE need to sign him up for the next 10 years at least as Jay for me can become one of the shows biggest ever characters. As an actor he is up there with the two Grade A's-Jake Wood & Steve Mcfadden, matches the Grade B's-Adam Woodyate & Perry Fenwick and easily outclasses everyone else. I wonder where all this will lead for Jay?, its becoming clear that he is hating himself for what he has done and being part of. Male anoxeria has often been talked about on here with Jay as the chosen character and I can defintely think with his current story that it would be realistic for Jay to develop such problems either that or self harm storyline.
That's what I've been wondering about albeit in a more mundane way. On the surface I wouldn't have though Jabi will last. She's obviously university material and with age and a growing intellect I wouldn't have thought they'd stay together. The only way to keep them together in usual soap terms would be pregnancy but we don't want that tedious story line for Jabi.
Something I thought of was what if Jay (re) discovered education and did A Levels and went to university or got a good career. I'd like Jay to do well in the long term at least.
Regarding anorexia and self harm, excellent ideas for a male story line and Jay would certainly do that justice.
Comments
Ben orginally abused Stella - then after a visit to the London Dungeon, Stella began to abuse Ben. The exact same could be said for Ben. In fact, it is exactly the same for Ben. Ben knows right and wrong; and in the end it is up to Ben the choices he makes in life. He choose to hurt Freddie Mitchell, Louise Mitchell, Patrick, Glenda, Christian, and Heather. He did not rise above his dad's behaviour; in fact he's gone and out done it all. I'm not siding Phil with Jay, simply saying why Phil prefers Jay to Ben. Phil likes Jay for more than just boxing and fixing cars; but because of Jay's morality. He's a good kid, he works hard, and treats people with kindness and respect. Jay has been through hardship like Ben has - his grandma and mother both died of cancer, he witnessed his dad's death, he got involved in a gang which stabbed him, was betrayed by Billy on Jase's death, and was physically abused by him too. Yet Jay grew up, became mature, and learned the element of responsibility; that Ben has yet to learn. Ben and Jay both have had their fair share of tradgey, but made different choices in life.
He was clearly different and his Dad showed him quickly and often that he didn't like his differences. Louise arrives and Ben is massively insecure. She steals his diary and writes in it pretending he is gay. She rocks his world in a bad way and he punishes her using the exact tactics Stella has used on him.
Ben killed Heather accidentally and he put blood on Roxy's coat accidentally, you have that wrong. Ben is an awful person but he's a result of an unloving, bad parent and he's sad and desperate. Phil is an old lush that can't be saved or become better. He knows he's done wrong by Ben and he knows he can never love him properly. Phil hates himself for this but keeps letting Ben know how he feels about him.
Undoubtedly Jay is more moral and good than these 2 put together but it's not up to Phil to see this and like him more because of it. In fact it's outrageous for him who has lived his life in such a disgraceful and disgusting way to look at his son who is a product of all that and go 'I don't like you much. I think I'll go with Jay as he's nicer' And it's kind of useless to point out how Jay overcame things because as much as Ben didn't overcome things Phil didn't either.
Heather's death was not accidental. Ben, once he had come to Heather's house had done so with the intention of doing some malicious to her. He deliberately picked up a weapon a hit Heather with it; in order to retrieve money, or whatever else he wanted from Heather. After the murder, Ben showed no remorse, even laughing about it, being pretty sure he would get off, until Phil pointed out he was sixteen. At the dinner table, he began making jokes about her, and subsequently did so in the days after
And on Roxy; Ben had the choice to handsake her and explain the blood on his hands; he didn't. Instead, he sneakily hugged her with the blood on his hands. Ben came to square being able to hurt in cold blood; without meeting Phil. I don't deny environmental factors, such as Phil's parenting have played a part in Ben's sociopathy. What I do deny though, is that Phil's parenting is the single conclusive reason for it; because it is clear Ben was a sociopath even when he first came to the square. You can argue Phil excaberated that, you can argue Phil was a terrible parent who only beginning to realise so now, but you cannot blame Ben's sociopathy enterily on Phil; it leaves many questions unanswered and is an inconclusive verdict as a result. It's enterily up to Phil if he wants to think of Jay better than Ben. Your argument that Phil's hyprocrisy means he can't genuinely have more warmer feelings towards Jay than Ben is one that isn't quite logical; mainly because (a. Ben has choosen to commit the actions he has (b. Phil is not the single cause of all of Ben's problems. It's not useless at all the point out Jay overcame things. In fact, I wouldn't word it that way at all, as it misconstrues my point enterily; which is that Ben's bad childhood is not sufficent basis for the subsequent choices he made in life, to be blamed on Phil. In life, you make choices. Ben and Jay, both made theirs, and that is why there dynamic is interesting. Jay chose to be a good person, because he wanted to be. Ben chose to be a bad person because he thought his victimhood made it a legitmate thing to do.
Agreed
That's what I've been wondering about albeit in a more mundane way. On the surface I wouldn't have though Jabi will last. She's obviously university material and with age and a growing intellect I wouldn't have thought they'd stay together. The only way to keep them together in usual soap terms would be pregnancy but we don't want that tedious story line for Jabi.
Something I thought of was what if Jay (re) discovered education and did A Levels and went to university or got a good career. I'd like Jay to do well in the long term at least.
Regarding anorexia and self harm, excellent ideas for a male story line and Jay would certainly do that justice.