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Intolerance on Digital Spy?
Cornucopia
Posts: 19,440 Forum Member
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As an occasional visitor to these Forums (Fora?) I am somewhat disturbed to see the number of intolerant postings and threads that have appeared since Christmas.
Perhaps I'm in a post-Christmas haze of contentment, but I honestly don't see anything productive from threads questioning the historical accuracy of the Holocaust, or lumping all Muslims together and questioning their potential for moderation.
There seem to be a number of posters, who, for whatever reason, wish to rewrite historical events in support of extreme views today. When people die in acts of violence, it isn't a question of: my genocide is better than your genocide, because more people died. It is shocking and appalling that it should happen and be allowed to happen at all.
In all likelihood, we'll never know for sure whether September 11th was or wasn't the work of 19 Islamic terrorists, or of the US Government itself. The best evidence at the moment suggests only that the US were naive, stupid and negligent in the face of that threat, possibly with political motivation. But then, a country in which a proportion of the population don't believe the Lunar landings happened kind of has a track record for creating believable conspiracy theories, doesn't it? And for those people who ask where the CCTV footage is - bear in mind that it is the UK that has oppressive levels of CCTV coverage, not the US.
What of our own tragedy? July 7th? What of the bombing in Madrid? Were they conspiracies created by the UK and Spanish governments? No - there's little doubt that the events transpired in the way (more or less) that we've been told they did.
So, time for some home truths...
Happy to debate any / all of this world view with anyone who has an opinion...?
Perhaps I'm in a post-Christmas haze of contentment, but I honestly don't see anything productive from threads questioning the historical accuracy of the Holocaust, or lumping all Muslims together and questioning their potential for moderation.
There seem to be a number of posters, who, for whatever reason, wish to rewrite historical events in support of extreme views today. When people die in acts of violence, it isn't a question of: my genocide is better than your genocide, because more people died. It is shocking and appalling that it should happen and be allowed to happen at all.
In all likelihood, we'll never know for sure whether September 11th was or wasn't the work of 19 Islamic terrorists, or of the US Government itself. The best evidence at the moment suggests only that the US were naive, stupid and negligent in the face of that threat, possibly with political motivation. But then, a country in which a proportion of the population don't believe the Lunar landings happened kind of has a track record for creating believable conspiracy theories, doesn't it? And for those people who ask where the CCTV footage is - bear in mind that it is the UK that has oppressive levels of CCTV coverage, not the US.
What of our own tragedy? July 7th? What of the bombing in Madrid? Were they conspiracies created by the UK and Spanish governments? No - there's little doubt that the events transpired in the way (more or less) that we've been told they did.
So, time for some home truths...
- Yes, there is a potential threat from a tiny minority of young Muslim men whose religious convictions have been corrupted into hatred of the West.
- No, the whole Muslim world is not going to rise up against the West, any more than we would against them.
- No Western country would ever adopt Sharia Law, and it is foolish to suggest otherwise.
- In different times, it was Christianity (and other religions) that were corrupted to support xenophobic violence.
- Humanity has a natural disposition towards xenophobia - it doesn't take much to provoke it and divine writ is more than enough.
- The tragic events in Iraq are as much about the release of Saddam Hussain's regime's oppression of religious differences as they are about the meddling of the West.
- In times of conflict the boundary between armed forces and the general population becomes highly permeable - members of the general public take up arms and the number of combatants can rise hugely over a short period of time (Kosovo)
- It is access to weapons that drives militarisation - even a machete can be an effective tool for "ethic cleansing" (Rwanda)
- American foreign policy is only marginally imperialistic, it's main thrust is protection of its own interests (whatever and wherever they may be).
- The dissolution of Israel will not resolve issues in the Middle East - there is a new wave of violence to come which is about deposition of the Arab monarchies in favour of theocracies.
- Why has none of the neighbouring countries ever taken the Palestinians in as citizens?
Happy to debate any / all of this world view with anyone who has an opinion...?
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I always thought that the US of A was only guilty of being rather complacent regarding the threat of terrorism from the Middle East thinking of course that it could all be accommodated and contained.
However post 9/11 everything changed and that's where we all are today.....
I would say you are right - that it was simply complacency. However, the small spark of conspiracy theorist has to at least admit other possibilities where they don't contradict the available evidence.
I am a big fan of open debate, with the aim of greater understanding for all of us.
Your post is a great summary of many major issues in world affairs at this moment in time, and I do feel some of the posters who have been posting in a rather negative and IMHO underhanded way would do well to read it and continue the debate in some kind of reasonable way!
What an idiotic statement.
In the sense that the conspiracy theories can not be disproved then it is true. The nature of conspiracy theories is that they are contrived to be very hard to disprove.
That doesn't mean that anybody in their right mind really believes that the USA did it to itself.
Forums
I looked it up once, it's "forums" for things like DS, "fora" for Greek or Roman style meeting places.
Best of luck with your thread.
Indeed. There is a sort of "conspiracy of nonsense" where almost everybody claims to believe that sorting out Israel and the Palestinians would cause everything else to drop neatly into place. This is probably because they can't bring themselves to admit how screwed up things really are.
Because they don't care about the Palestinians except as a tool to use against Israel. Palestinains are treated like crap througout the middle east.
Similarly, the west doesn't really care about Israel exept as a tool to use against its enemies in the middle east.
They tragedy is that niether side sees its supposed "friends" for what they really are. If they did they did they would realise how much they have in common and might be able to reach an accomodation.
You are in no more position of ownership of the truth than someone who could write the very opposite and claim it the truth. Neither are you entitled to attack posters as intolerant whose views happen to differ from yours.
Correct, although the tide is turning on those that claim the US government did absolutely nothing wrong in just sitting back and letting it happen.
Yes, because if the US had acted earlier and had implemented stricter limits on the movement and freedom of terrorist suspects (ie. muslims) you wouldn't have complained at all!!
Actually it's Christian Extremism in the USA that is causing all the trouble in the Middle East either by using Israel or on it's own.
It's been going on for decades.
"War on terror" is a propoganda term used to create public backing for middle eastern agendas.
Lets be honest here. Most of us aren't here because we are interested in debating the subtle aspects and complexities or modern political events. Most of us are here because we are convinced we KNOW exactly what causes all the problems in the world, we KNOW exactly how to solve them, and we KNOW everyone who disagrees with us is completely wrong, evil or stupid.
Well its illegal to talk about it in Austria,
but not yet in my country, even though discussion doesn't automatically mean denial or ingrained anti-semitism, as some people try and make out in a weak attempt to cloud the discussion.
Just because people happened to disagree with your view that the holocaust gives Israel and Jews certain 'rights', doesn't mean its not productive to discuss various aspects, other wise the people who do want to cash in on the holocaust, and if you read that thread, its agree that people do, will get exactly what they want, a clear and free lane to make up history to suite them and their agenda.
That I agree with, but could you give some examples please, because I doubt that you are actually talking about the broad section of DS posters and are probably aiming it at one 'group'.
You mean Kosovo as in the KLA that the UN described as a terrorist organisation before the KLA started a war in Kosovo in order to provoke the Serbs in order get the UN/US to clear Kosovo of the Serbs, which has now happened.
And this is where you show your true hand, the one other than a 'distressed onlooker'.
To answer your question...............Why?
When the Palestinians rightful land has been taken over by the Israeli's. If other countries where to take the palestinians as citizens in the wild and wacky world of the Israeli way of thinking that would mean the Countries taking in the Palestinian will be against Israel and can be attacked for harbouring terrorists.
What you are suggesting is ridiculous you can't ask someone to leave their lands and abandon their nationality because they don't like being invaded.
I have to say I have been quite shocked at the fact that quite a few posters on here use personal attacks in repsponse to peoples opinions rather than try to have a reasoned response.
I love rigorous debate, however the resoponse of "you must be stupid" and more, to a post made by someone. Shows a level of arrogance and ignorance that has no place in political or social debate.
I agree, political debate is about shooting your opponents or making them leave the country