Re. "the EU as an institution has not given an official pronouncement"
Legal advice on an independent Scotland's future in Europe has been submitted to ministers but they refuse to publish it. Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed remarks made in May by external affairs secretary Fiona Hyslop that the Scottish Government has now received the advice.
Try googling it - you'll find how the SNP claimed it had legal advice, made frequently repeated assertions about it, spent £20,000 trying to cover it up after an FOI request and then finally admitted that they didn't actually have any such advice. Eventually they asked the EU for it. Now that they have it, they refuse to publish it. They say it will be summarised in their forthcoming prospectus.
Scots Tory leader Ruth Davidson recently ran civil service advice and an SNP statement on an oil commission through “university cheating software”.
“Whole sections were cut and pasted – entire paragraphs on Scotland’s projected net fiscal debt, on the country’s debt interest payments and on notional borrowing costs.
“All the good stuff made the grade. All the bad stuff hit the bin.
“It seems when the Government reached any section in here – and there were plenty – that said that an oil fund would mean higher taxes, more borrowing or lower public spending, they simply hit DELETE.”
People have suggested that Spain would object (not that they've asked Spain; they just like to imagine they can speak for what the Spanish might do) - I believe that the underhand Ruth Davidson even had secret talks with a Spanish minister, presumably trying to drum up anti-Scottish support in the event of independence. Realistically, though, I suspect that the UK is more likely to be outside of the EU in the coming years than an independent Scotland. Certainly, that's what the strong anti-EU sentiment we often see suggests. Thanks to UKIP, even the Tories are now eager to give the predominantly English anti-EU voters a chance to drag the entire UK out.
A Scottish referendum would have to be drafted, but I don't think there is much call for a referendum on it.
Is there figures available for pro-EU support in Scotland?... is Scotland generally pro or anti EU membership?.... if the UK decides to opt out of the EU then that could lend support to the Yes side if the country is pro-EU.
no one would object, however the terms of the agreement might be a little sour for some scots to take. They certainly wouldn't be getting some sort of super state status like the UK currently has.
Presumably neither will the UK, for much longer. In fact, if the voice of middle England is anything to go by, it won't enjoy any sort of status since it will leave the EU. I suppose it's also worth noting that for all the UK's alleged 'super state status', the ever militant voices of those who demand the country leave the EU continues to grow.
Is there figures available for pro-EU support in Scotland?... is Scotland generally pro or anti EU membership?.... if the UK decides to opt out of the EU then that could lend support to the Yes side if the country is pro-EU.
EU support seems to be higher in Scotland (for whatever reason) than other regions of the UK (predominantly England).
Polling conducted by Panelbase for the Sunday Times and Real Radio Scotland has indicated that faced with the prospect of the UK leaving the European Union, support for Scotland becoming an independent country rockets in favour of yes.
But realistically Basque region and Catalonia will probably never gain independence from Spain and never be applying for EU membership... What grounds could they realistically object on?
Who knows, the Catalonians have marched for independence and got more than one million on the streets to show their support (link up thread) which is far more than the 20,000 or so that the Yes Campaign recently managed to muster.
A law passed by the Catalonian Parliament re independence is currently suspended whilst the Spanish Constitutional Court decides what to do (link up thread). so who knows whether they will get independence in the future or not ?
As to what grounds they could realistically object on its the point I made about not wanting to give succour to independence movements
Could give a big boost to a Yes vote so if the UK was destined to go it alone outside the Union so.
Very possibly. I do find it rich that Unionists like to carp about the SNP not being able to guarantee membership of the EU when:
a) The ball lies in the Westminster government's court in terms of actually getting a definitive answer.
b) The SNP can no more guarantee Scotland's place in the EU than the Unionists can guarantee Scotland within the UK won't be dragged out of the EU by English votes in 2017.
It comes down to probabilities, and for my money, an independent Scotland has more chance of remaining in the EU than the UK. Furthermore, if Scotland goes independent, it will be up to us - the Scottish electorate - to decide on whether or not we'd like to stay in in coming decades. Remaining with the UK means that English votes (the largest bloc by far) will decide for us, and potentially every man and woman in Scotland could vote to stay in the EU and be completely ignored.
I saw Alistair Carmichael the new Scottish Secretary on Sunday Politics today. Didn't realise he was in the same mould as Alex Salmond ie jovial and smiles whilst sticking the stiletto between your ribs. Could make for an interesting debate with WeeEck, and unlike a certain WeeEck he has said he will debate with anyone.
I saw Alistair Carmichael the new Scottish Secretary on Sunday Politics today. Didn't realise he was in the same mould as Alex Salmond ie jovial and smiles whilst sticking the stiletto between your ribs. Could make for an interesting debate with WeeEck, and unlike a certain WeeEck he has said he will debate with anyone.
Is there figures available for pro-EU support in Scotland?... is Scotland generally pro or anti EU membership?.... if the UK decides to opt out of the EU then that could lend support to the Yes side if the country is pro-EU.
it's roughly 2 thirds support for remaining in EU here ... other parts of UK it seems to be 2 thirds for exiting EU but I doubt the reality of what leaving EU would mean hits all that hard, among other things would still have to follow EU rules but wouldn't have a vote on decisions ... so out of EU the moans about EU would likely increase!
I know who he is but just wondering why he should command more respect than Michael Moore, and why Mr Salmond should debate with him. I find it strange, with all those poles showing how well project fear was doing, and how confident they seem to be, they felt they needed to sack Moore.
I know who he is but just wondering why he should command more respect than Michael Moore, and why Mr Salmond should debate with him. I find it strange, with all those poles showing how well project fear was doing, and how confident they seem to be, they felt they needed to sack Moore.
Well if you believe the conspiracy theorists Moore was sacked and Carmicael given his job as part of Clegg's grand scheme to ensure as many as possible of his MPs have been on the Government payroll by the time of the next election
I know who he is but just wondering why he should command more respect than Michael Moore, and why Mr Salmond should debate with him. I find it strange, with all those poles showing how well project fear was doing, and how confident they seem to be, they felt they needed to sack Moore.
LibDems are heading for wipeout in next UK general election so they've put in place Carmichael who is in safest libdem seat in Scotland who would at least in theory have time to do job of Scottish Secretary from now until 2015 without campaigning to save his political life as well
Not according to that link they didn't. Re-read it and you'll find out who they got the advice from. Whilst you're at it look at a prior post of mine or google for a link to which exemptions are available to FOI requests in Scotland. Legal advice is one of them.
To the mods,
I think this thread should be amalgamated with the "Scottish Independence: Let's have an honest debate" one as its content is addressing the subject of honesty.
Hope this is possible,
Morayloon
"Alex Salmond wasted £20,000 of public money trying to stop the Scottish Information Commissioner's Office from revealing that he'd not taken legal advice on a post-independence Scotland's eligibility for European Union membership.
The walrus-like Scottish National Party (SNP) leader used taxpayers' cash to fund a Court of Session appeal against the Scottish ICO, which had ordered Salmond to disclose exactly what lawyers had advised the SNP administration about Scotland's right to join the EU.
Although the administration's appeal against disclosure was abandoned after a statement was made in the Scottish Parliament, Slippery Salmond was found to have been bluffing all along and had failed to seek any “specific” legal counsel on this fundamentally important matter."
"Alex Salmond wasted £20,000 of public money trying to stop the Scottish Information Commissioner's Office from revealing that he'd not taken legal advice on a post-independence Scotland's eligibility for European Union membership.
The walrus-like Scottish National Party (SNP) leader used taxpayers' cash to fund a Court of Session appeal against the Scottish ICO, which had ordered Salmond to disclose exactly what lawyers had advised the SNP administration about Scotland's right to join the EU.
Although the administration's appeal against disclosure was abandoned after a statement was made in the Scottish Parliament, Slippery Salmond was found to have been bluffing all along and had failed to seek any “specific” legal counsel on this fundamentally important matter."
Aside from the errors in that article, the personally insulting tone (which I've left in bold) betray what it is. You're quite right - so much for an 'honest' debate - this is playground stuff designed to smear independence by extension through making digs at the leader of the SNP. Surely we deserve better than this?
As to the content it seems to be attempting to convey around the personal attacks, see above.
Aside from the errors in that article, the personally insulting tone (which I've left in bold) betray what it is. You're quite right - so much for an 'honest' debate - this is playground stuff designed to smear independence by extension through making digs at the leader of the SNP. Surely we deserve better than this?
As to the content it seems to be attempting to convey around the personal attacks, see above.
The fact remains that Salmond was 'bluffing' (ie lying) about having obtained legal advice. He then tried his best - using public money - to hide his lies. Of course he deserves a personal attack, it was him wot did it!
The fact remains that Salmond was 'bluffing' (ie lying) about having obtained legal advice. He then tried his best - using public money - to hide his lies. Of course he deserves a personal attack, it was him wot did it!
That's right - keep attacking the man..............the man who still has a personal positive poll rating of +47, despite leading a government for over 6 YEARS and facing non-stop abuse in the media. Talk about a waste of energy!
Nicola Sturgeon's been heading up the referendum stuff for the Scottish government for a long time now.
Makes me wonder where BT are getting their cutting edge info from, if THAT hasn't sunk in and they keep having to give knackered old lines retreads all the time.
It's clear the present Scottish government want Scotland to remain in the EU. What the heck the UK government and opposition want re EU membership seems to change two or three times a year.
Do Scots want certainty? There's the best certainty they can get.
If they vote yes, their government and their cross party representatives will join together to fight for the best terms possible for the continuing EU membership.
Comments
Legal advice on an independent Scotland's future in Europe has been submitted to ministers but they refuse to publish it. Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed remarks made in May by external affairs secretary Fiona Hyslop that the Scottish Government has now received the advice.
http://news.stv.tv/politics/228369-nicola-sturgeon-confirms-existence-of-legal-advice-on-scotland-and-eu/
Try googling it - you'll find how the SNP claimed it had legal advice, made frequently repeated assertions about it, spent £20,000 trying to cover it up after an FOI request and then finally admitted that they didn't actually have any such advice. Eventually they asked the EU for it. Now that they have it, they refuse to publish it. They say it will be summarised in their forthcoming prospectus.
Scots Tory leader Ruth Davidson recently ran civil service advice and an SNP statement on an oil commission through “university cheating software”.
“Whole sections were cut and pasted – entire paragraphs on Scotland’s projected net fiscal debt, on the country’s debt interest payments and on notional borrowing costs.
“All the good stuff made the grade. All the bad stuff hit the bin.
“It seems when the Government reached any section in here – and there were plenty – that said that an oil fund would mean higher taxes, more borrowing or lower public spending, they simply hit DELETE.”
Expect more "summarising" of the same kind.
Presumably neither will the UK, for much longer. In fact, if the voice of middle England is anything to go by, it won't enjoy any sort of status since it will leave the EU. I suppose it's also worth noting that for all the UK's alleged 'super state status', the ever militant voices of those who demand the country leave the EU continues to grow.
EU support seems to be higher in Scotland (for whatever reason) than other regions of the UK (predominantly England).
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/05/prospect-of-eu-exit-boosts-support-for-scottish-independence/
Who knows, the Catalonians have marched for independence and got more than one million on the streets to show their support (link up thread) which is far more than the 20,000 or so that the Yes Campaign recently managed to muster.
A law passed by the Catalonian Parliament re independence is currently suspended whilst the Spanish Constitutional Court decides what to do (link up thread). so who knows whether they will get independence in the future or not ?
As to what grounds they could realistically object on its the point I made about not wanting to give succour to independence movements
Very possibly. I do find it rich that Unionists like to carp about the SNP not being able to guarantee membership of the EU when:
a) The ball lies in the Westminster government's court in terms of actually getting a definitive answer.
b) The SNP can no more guarantee Scotland's place in the EU than the Unionists can guarantee Scotland within the UK won't be dragged out of the EU by English votes in 2017.
It comes down to probabilities, and for my money, an independent Scotland has more chance of remaining in the EU than the UK. Furthermore, if Scotland goes independent, it will be up to us - the Scottish electorate - to decide on whether or not we'd like to stay in in coming decades. Remaining with the UK means that English votes (the largest bloc by far) will decide for us, and potentially every man and woman in Scotland could vote to stay in the EU and be completely ignored.
Alistair who?
Former spokesman for Mogadon.
http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Alistair_Carmichael
David Cameron’s Grand Gesture
I know who he is but just wondering why he should command more respect than Michael Moore, and why Mr Salmond should debate with him. I find it strange, with all those poles showing how well project fear was doing, and how confident they seem to be, they felt they needed to sack Moore.
Well if you believe the conspiracy theorists Moore was sacked and Carmicael given his job as part of Clegg's grand scheme to ensure as many as possible of his MPs have been on the Government payroll by the time of the next election
Negativity and scare stories may not pay off for the Noes
Stunning performance, it supposed to be an anti Tory protest but could easily be anti Westminster.
Not according to that link they didn't. Re-read it and you'll find out who they got the advice from. Whilst you're at it look at a prior post of mine or google for a link to which exemptions are available to FOI requests in Scotland. Legal advice is one of them.
incredible :eek:
I think this thread should be amalgamated with the "Scottish Independence: Let's have an honest debate" one as its content is addressing the subject of honesty.
Hope this is possible,
Morayloon
"Alex Salmond wasted £20,000 of public money trying to stop the Scottish Information Commissioner's Office from revealing that he'd not taken legal advice on a post-independence Scotland's eligibility for European Union membership.
The walrus-like Scottish National Party (SNP) leader used taxpayers' cash to fund a Court of Session appeal against the Scottish ICO, which had ordered Salmond to disclose exactly what lawyers had advised the SNP administration about Scotland's right to join the EU.
Although the administration's appeal against disclosure was abandoned after a statement was made in the Scottish Parliament, Slippery Salmond was found to have been bluffing all along and had failed to seek any “specific” legal counsel on this fundamentally important matter."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/11/slippery_salmond_and_the_scottish_naughty_party/
Aside from the errors in that article, the personally insulting tone (which I've left in bold) betray what it is. You're quite right - so much for an 'honest' debate - this is playground stuff designed to smear independence by extension through making digs at the leader of the SNP. Surely we deserve better than this?
As to the content it seems to be attempting to convey around the personal attacks, see above.
The fact remains that Salmond was 'bluffing' (ie lying) about having obtained legal advice. He then tried his best - using public money - to hide his lies. Of course he deserves a personal attack, it was him wot did it!
I thought that was Geoffrey Howe and just look at what HE did with a pen and the right to speak without interruption in the HOC!
However, I'd confidently back a good half dozen or so members of the Scottish government to hold their own in any debate with Alistair Carmichael.
That's right - keep attacking the man..............the man who still has a personal positive poll rating of +47, despite leading a government for over 6 YEARS and facing non-stop abuse in the media. Talk about a waste of energy!
Nicola Sturgeon's been heading up the referendum stuff for the Scottish government for a long time now.
Makes me wonder where BT are getting their cutting edge info from, if THAT hasn't sunk in and they keep having to give knackered old lines retreads all the time.
It's clear the present Scottish government want Scotland to remain in the EU. What the heck the UK government and opposition want re EU membership seems to change two or three times a year.
Do Scots want certainty? There's the best certainty they can get.
If they vote yes, their government and their cross party representatives will join together to fight for the best terms possible for the continuing EU membership.