It's all subjective and no one would really know what goes on. I know there was a song on 50 Cent's first album, I think it was High All The Time and at the start of the song there is a sound effect of a lighter being flicked on. That is all Eminem added. Eminem was one of the executive producers on that album and added various things to some of the songs, some of them significant and really made the songs much better than they originally were but for that one song all he did was add that lighter sound effect at the beginning and that ended up putting him on the production list even though he was executive producing the whole album anyway so it didn't matter.
So if you're in a studio writing and you're not sure what words to use or different people give ideas for a chorus or this and that, very easily you can end up using ideas from other people. I think for a lot of popular artists it's just a case of helping friends out and getting a good payday. Making sure everyone gets a little bit of money. Make another song, do the same thing, everyone gets some money and has fun and all is good.
I think a lot of people need to realise that writing music includes the actual music. If you have musicians in the studio coming up with stuff they too will get writing credits. For pop and hip hop music it's not uncommon for a beat to be passed around by a producer but once that is going to be used for something, it's also not uncommon for another producer or person to "add to it". Miley Cyrus might have picked Wrecking Ball but it might not have had the piano on it. She might have requested that or her in studio producer might have played it just messing around and she thought "We'll keep that". RIght there that's an additional name on the writers credits.
Writing credits are not just lyrics they are music too. Even the best producers in the world work with a team. Some of the best producers in the world can't even play an instrument but they have people around them that can and they can have someone play keyboards and drums and bass guitars all day long until they play something they like. Even suggesting a song title or harmony or melody, even if someone else physically plays it for the recording is also considered producing.
Another answer for this is that sometimes artists willl know they have struck gold with a song and they will want to keep that same team going incase it happens again. Think of them as friends. If you all had a hit song, and that song makes millions of dollars in profit and you, whatever you done, came up with a small part of it. Are you gonna throw that money back and insist on your artistic integrity? Or are you gonna say hey......i just did that piano part on Wrecking Ball, if i stick around and play my cards right I could end up a multi millionaire. It's like artists hiring friends. Everyone gets a payday.
Well, take the hip hop example, here is who is involved.
Beat Maker - Typically working a beat farm, sells beats by the bucketload. Either for money or a profit share, that will be decided on a case by case basis. A lot of these beats are put together on something like FL Studio, takes very little time and effort to create a hip hop beat. The idea is create many, as quick as you can, and hope a few actually hit the mark and can be used.
Lyricists - Hip Hop is a hard one to judge because you have the main artist, then all the features. They may all be involved in the writing, and then each one may also have a writing partner or simply buys some lyrics from someone who may or may not be related to the artist. Typically they are related to the label if the artist is big enough, and if they are really big (like Rhianna for example), they will have their own group of people who work for them and them alone.
Production - Nature of the music means its very easy to produce. Most of it being electronic means you can directly control how each part sounds. Few compressors, little bit of chorus, maybe gate a few bits, brickwall the shit out of it, rinse repeat.
Mastering - HAHAHAHAHAHA, doesnt really happen anymore, as the production side of things will handle that inhouse and on the fly in most cases. THankfully music that isnt electronic based would still do well to get it mastered, but you would be surprised at how little is done in regards to mastering these days. Many times its db leveling and perhaps a bit of clean up, the odd EQ here or there.
By the time you are done with the track, its been redesigned by lots of different people,so often its hard to gauge who actually wrote it at all.
This is excluding the new influx of psychology. Yep, thats now a big part of pop music creation. Quite a few years back, studies were done to figure out why some times of music were popular, and some are not. It was found that your brain is acting in a similar way to drug addiction when you listen to manufactured pop music. Here is how it works. When you do something, a quiz or a task, your brain rewards you when you get something right by releasing a small amount of dopamine (same reaction heroin has in a sense, albeit far weaker. Same one you get from having sex as well). So, how does this translate to pop music? well most pop music is based on very simple tried and true melodies and sounds. Each time you listen to it, your brain is subconsciously predicting what will come next, and each time you get it right, you get a good feeling. Your brain is rewarding you. Pop music is not just "liked by many", its actually addictive. Its why many people struggle to stray away from the music they already like, because its unknown their brain will not be able to correctly predict the songs, thus starving themselves of the reward.
I believe it has always been thus, Elvis Presley took song writing credits for songs that he never wrote. The song writers accepted it as Elvis was a huge star and it was a way of getting exposure for their songs and making some cash.
I think a lot of people need to realise that writing music includes the actual music. If you have musicians in the studio coming up with stuff they too will get writing credits. For pop and hip hop music it's not uncommon for a beat to be passed around by a producer but once that is going to be used for something, it's also not uncommon for another producer or person to "add to it". Miley Cyrus might have picked Wrecking Ball but it might not have had the piano on it. She might have requested that or her in studio producer might have played it just messing around and she thought "We'll keep that". RIght there that's an additional name on the writers credits.
Writing credits are not just lyrics they are music too. Even the best producers in the world work with a team. Some of the best producers in the world can't even play an instrument but they have people around them that can and they can have someone play keyboards and drums and bass guitars all day long until they play something they like. Even suggesting a song title or harmony or melody, even if someone else physically plays it for the recording is also considered producing.
Another answer for this is that sometimes artists willl know they have struck gold with a song and they will want to keep that same team going incase it happens again. Think of them as friends. If you all had a hit song, and that song makes millions of dollars in profit and you, whatever you done, came up with a small part of it. Are you gonna throw that money back and insist on your artistic integrity? Or are you gonna say hey......i just did that piano part on Wrecking Ball, if i stick around and play my cards right I could end up a multi millionaire. It's like artists hiring friends. Everyone gets a payday.
Yes I'm well aware song writing is writing music, I do not class writing lyrics as songwriting at all.
The way your describing these songs being written is soulless. They are being passed around and bits added to them, all in the name of making a buck. I'd rather listen to an artist who creates their own stuff, performs it and does it their own way. I do not consider Miley Cirus or Beyoncé to be an artist. They are performers who have a limited contribution to what they perform. Hardly an Artist.
Couldn't care less how many people it takes to write a song. Likewise I don't care that Rihanna hasn't written most of her songs. Talented songwriters are falling over themselves to write for artists like Rihanna. She clearly has huge talent and just because that doesn't involve writing doesn't mean she should be looked down upon. Plus she does have writing credits on many of her album tracks anyway.
HUGE talent? Yet she can't write a song or play an instrument? I think you're overestimating her talents a bit. She can sing, just like a hundred thousand other people can who turn up on X Factor and The Voice. Singing is not an exceptional talent, it's a common one. Also, professional song writers are falling over to work with her because they know they'll make money. There are plenty of talented songwriters who wouldn't be seen dead working with her or writing her songs for her.
I've never seen this documentary but I would be interested in seeing it. Can you remember what it was called?
It's not a great song at all, is it?
I don't mind the occasional Beyonce track but I don't listen to her very often. As for Kanye West, ugh! I can't stand him.
Paying for credits and not taking a song unless the songwriter(s) agree to that is sad.
It really isn't. I have no problem with pop songs. They are catchy and accessible. I have a problem with how the performers get hyped up into these icons who are ridiculously talented when all they are is half decent singers. You don't hear anything about the producers or writers or people who play the instruments at their concerts. It's all about them. At least with bands they are promoted as a band and the focus isn't on an individual as with these solo artists who aren't very solo at all.
But you also need to remember, if we are going to focus on artists like Rihanna and Beyonce that they are the business. They are the money. Now for many people who produce music and play instruments, you need to make a decision. Do you want to be upfront on stage where people can see you, like in a band? Or do you want to work behind the scenes? That's a decision you need to make and as you know many try and fail to get on stage, only the very few make it. Just because someone works with Rihanna and plays instruments and helps her with her vocals or tells her how to sing isn't a sign of failure on their part. It's not like working in a studio means you have failed the music business. There's people working in recording studios right now that are damn good at their jobs and they know how to make good music, some of this music you're hating might not sound good to your ears because it's being recorded electronically on drum machines and keyboards but I bet if you take any Rihanna or Beyonce record and have them played live by drummers and keyboard players and bassists and guitar plays and string and horn sections you would appreciate it a lot more.
What do you want to hear about the producers and musicians? They already get credited in the liner notes. What can they possibly do to satisfy you? Have them go on on tour with the artists and play live? These producers that work with big artists don't just work with one artist, they work with loads, they can be working on different projects at the same time. I'm all for session musicians getting credit and writers getting credit for writing these songs but when you say you want them getting more credit and being noticed more what else can possibly be done?
HUGE talent? Yet she can't write a song or play an instrument? I think you're overestimating her talents a bit. She can sing, just like a hundred thousand other people can who turn up on X Factor and The Voice. Singing is not an exceptional talent, it's a common one. Also, professional song writers are falling over to work with her because they know they'll make money. There are plenty of talented songwriters who wouldn't be seen dead working with her or writing her songs for her.
She's written songs on her albums so she can write. Playing an instrument is a common talent too.
I don't think anyone here has even suggested that song writting only involves lyrics. I don't think any would disagree that songs get altered in the production process.
The point is that if a song takes 10 people to get from demo to full song, and if all these people have had to have a significantly large input in order to get it to release standards and get a writting credit it can't have been particularly good in the first place and the work of each individual couldn't have been that good either.
Some people think a credit is due to them for changing a couple of words or twiddling a button on a mixing desk.
That's how music is made these days, there's input from everyone and when it becomes a product it gets played about with.
The type of songs Rihanna is associated with are products, so will be treated like products. I think if the song has resonated with a lot of people then it has something about it, the idea it's not good and 10 people were needed to make it sound good doesn't mean much when that's how a lot of songs work, they sound rough or people play about with them for years sometimes. When it's creating songs, that have potential to be global hits, I don't think anyone here is qualified to understand how that happens, we're all just guessing & unless we personally are involved in a similar project we have no idea what goes on.
I am not a fan of Rihanna though I do think she has star potential, the ability to perform and be a pop star, the strength to do it, she can sing pretty good & seems passionate about her work. That is important to music as much as writing.
Yes I'm well aware song writing is writing music, I do not class writing lyrics as songwriting at all.
The way your describing these songs being written is soulless. They are being passed around and bits added to them, all in the name of making a buck. I'd rather listen to an artist who creates their own stuff, performs it and does it their own way. I do not consider Miley Cirus or Beyoncé to be an artist. They are performers who have a limited contribution to what they perform. Hardly an Artist.
There's another thread about lyricists not being songwriters. To me this is all academic guff really.
Here's Public Enemy's 'He Got Game' with a Stephen Stills sampled soundbase and a whole set of brilliant lyrics. Is this a song? And is Chuck D not a songwriter? He makes one hell of a contribution to that piece.
Here's Springsteen's 'Highway Patrolman' from 'Nebraska'. Minimal music with a story. Story telling, poetry and songwriting are intimately related. It's as simple as that.
What point are you trying to convey here? It's not the same or even close as the other comparisons.
At the risk of being presumptious, I think the point is that 'song-writing' isn't any better or worse today than it's ever been, and that it's easy - not to mention lazy - to cherry pick any number of artists from different eras and compare them to suggest that music was 'better' in the 70's, 60's, 50's...zzzzz. Which, as we all know, is rose-tinted bollocks.
Or possibly not, I have been known to analyse things too deeply.
Sometimes a long list of writing credits isn't as bad as it sounds.
Babyface and Bobby Womack are on the writing credits for Mariah Carey's We Belong Together because she names both of their songs in the lyrics.
At the risk of being presumptious, I think the point is that 'song-writing' isn't any better or worse today than it's ever been, and that it's easy - not to mention lazy - to cherry pick any number of artists from different eras and compare them to suggest that music was 'better' in the 70's, 60's, 50's...zzzzz. Which, as we all know, is rose-tinted bollocks.
Or possibly not, I have been known to analyse things too deeply.
You seem to be forgetting the huge change that came with The Beatles and Dylan etc. in the early 60s. Right up to the late 50s the majority of pop artists would perform the songs written by professional songwriters (Tin Pan Alley). But with the influence of artists like Dylan, Chuck Berry, The Beatles and The Beach Boys, it was shown that pop music artists could and should compose and perform their own music in a serious way. And develop an experimental and artistic approach to pop music, reflected in the works of later artists like The Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd, Stevie Wonder, Prince, U2 etc.
There has always been pop artists who are just performers and the balance seems to have gravitated towards those sort of artists again.
You seem to be forgetting the huge change that came with The Beatles and Dylan etc. in the early 60s. Right up to the late 50s the majority of pop artists would perform the songs written by professional songwriters (Tin Pan Alley). But with the influence of artists like Dylan, Chuck Berry, The Beatles and The Beach Boys, it was shown that pop music artists could and should compose and perform their own music in a serious way. And develop an experimental and artistic approach to pop music, reflected in the works of later artists like The Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd, Stevie Wonder, Prince, U2 etc.
There has always been pop artists who are just performers and the balance seems to have gravitated towards those sort of artists again.
We're (possibly) making different points. I was just responding to the specific post I quoted, where that particular FM asked what point was being made in the image that he was questioning. Despite my faux modesty, the image is quite clearly highlighting how lyrically, contemporary songs are no different to songs of the <insert decade>. In any given year, you will find ridiculous lyrics and you will find breathtaking, heartbreaking lyrics, often from the same artist. No one era has a monopoly on either. Like I say, it's easy to cherry pick, as the two images show. I wasn't making any point about influence or legacy.
She's written songs on her albums so she can write. Playing an instrument is a common talent too.
Are the songs she wrote hits? Britney Spears wrote Dear Diary off Oops I did It Again. Should I bow down in awe? No because it's a terrible track.
Playing an instrument to the level where you would be able to play live and write songs is not a common talent. The market is flooded by great singers, there aren't nearly as many talented musicians.
Are the songs she wrote hits? Britney Spears wrote Dear Diary off Oops I did It Again. Should I bow down in awe? No because it's a terrible track.
Playing an instrument to the level where you would be able to play live and write songs is not a common talent. The market is flooded by great singers, there aren't nearly as many talented musicians.
She has writing credits on 'Run This Town', 'Hard', 'What Now', 'Te Amo', 'The Monster', 'Can't Remember to Forget You', 'Pour It Up' and others. Difficult to tell how much she contributed but you can't claim she didn't contribute. Plus many album tracks.
She has writing credits on 'Run This Town', 'Hard', 'What Now', 'Te Amo', 'The Monster', 'Can't Remember to Forget You', 'Pour It Up' and others. Difficult to tell how much she contributed but you can't claim she didn't contribute. Plus many album tracks.
Yes but she didn't write Baby One More, Oops I did It Again or Toxic. Her landmark songs. So what does that tell you? The artists I listen to wrote the songs that made them and that is a feeling you will never get when you listen to the likes of Britney.
Comments
So if you're in a studio writing and you're not sure what words to use or different people give ideas for a chorus or this and that, very easily you can end up using ideas from other people. I think for a lot of popular artists it's just a case of helping friends out and getting a good payday. Making sure everyone gets a little bit of money. Make another song, do the same thing, everyone gets some money and has fun and all is good.
Well, take the hip hop example, here is who is involved.
Beat Maker - Typically working a beat farm, sells beats by the bucketload. Either for money or a profit share, that will be decided on a case by case basis. A lot of these beats are put together on something like FL Studio, takes very little time and effort to create a hip hop beat. The idea is create many, as quick as you can, and hope a few actually hit the mark and can be used.
Lyricists - Hip Hop is a hard one to judge because you have the main artist, then all the features. They may all be involved in the writing, and then each one may also have a writing partner or simply buys some lyrics from someone who may or may not be related to the artist. Typically they are related to the label if the artist is big enough, and if they are really big (like Rhianna for example), they will have their own group of people who work for them and them alone.
Production - Nature of the music means its very easy to produce. Most of it being electronic means you can directly control how each part sounds. Few compressors, little bit of chorus, maybe gate a few bits, brickwall the shit out of it, rinse repeat.
Mastering - HAHAHAHAHAHA, doesnt really happen anymore, as the production side of things will handle that inhouse and on the fly in most cases. THankfully music that isnt electronic based would still do well to get it mastered, but you would be surprised at how little is done in regards to mastering these days. Many times its db leveling and perhaps a bit of clean up, the odd EQ here or there.
By the time you are done with the track, its been redesigned by lots of different people,so often its hard to gauge who actually wrote it at all.
This is excluding the new influx of psychology. Yep, thats now a big part of pop music creation. Quite a few years back, studies were done to figure out why some times of music were popular, and some are not. It was found that your brain is acting in a similar way to drug addiction when you listen to manufactured pop music. Here is how it works. When you do something, a quiz or a task, your brain rewards you when you get something right by releasing a small amount of dopamine (same reaction heroin has in a sense, albeit far weaker. Same one you get from having sex as well). So, how does this translate to pop music? well most pop music is based on very simple tried and true melodies and sounds. Each time you listen to it, your brain is subconsciously predicting what will come next, and each time you get it right, you get a good feeling. Your brain is rewarding you. Pop music is not just "liked by many", its actually addictive. Its why many people struggle to stray away from the music they already like, because its unknown their brain will not be able to correctly predict the songs, thus starving themselves of the reward.
if we're doing that.
http://imgur.com/PtWHNQA
i can't stand music snobs.
Hadn't seen that before. Brilliant
Yes I'm well aware song writing is writing music, I do not class writing lyrics as songwriting at all.
The way your describing these songs being written is soulless. They are being passed around and bits added to them, all in the name of making a buck. I'd rather listen to an artist who creates their own stuff, performs it and does it their own way. I do not consider Miley Cirus or Beyoncé to be an artist. They are performers who have a limited contribution to what they perform. Hardly an Artist.
HUGE talent? Yet she can't write a song or play an instrument? I think you're overestimating her talents a bit. She can sing, just like a hundred thousand other people can who turn up on X Factor and The Voice. Singing is not an exceptional talent, it's a common one. Also, professional song writers are falling over to work with her because they know they'll make money. There are plenty of talented songwriters who wouldn't be seen dead working with her or writing her songs for her.
It really isn't. I have no problem with pop songs. They are catchy and accessible. I have a problem with how the performers get hyped up into these icons who are ridiculously talented when all they are is half decent singers. You don't hear anything about the producers or writers or people who play the instruments at their concerts. It's all about them. At least with bands they are promoted as a band and the focus isn't on an individual as with these solo artists who aren't very solo at all.
What do you want to hear about the producers and musicians? They already get credited in the liner notes. What can they possibly do to satisfy you? Have them go on on tour with the artists and play live? These producers that work with big artists don't just work with one artist, they work with loads, they can be working on different projects at the same time. I'm all for session musicians getting credit and writers getting credit for writing these songs but when you say you want them getting more credit and being noticed more what else can possibly be done?
She's written songs on her albums so she can write. Playing an instrument is a common talent too.
I hate Kanye's ridiculous dancing in the video
That's how music is made these days, there's input from everyone and when it becomes a product it gets played about with.
The type of songs Rihanna is associated with are products, so will be treated like products. I think if the song has resonated with a lot of people then it has something about it, the idea it's not good and 10 people were needed to make it sound good doesn't mean much when that's how a lot of songs work, they sound rough or people play about with them for years sometimes. When it's creating songs, that have potential to be global hits, I don't think anyone here is qualified to understand how that happens, we're all just guessing & unless we personally are involved in a similar project we have no idea what goes on.
I am not a fan of Rihanna though I do think she has star potential, the ability to perform and be a pop star, the strength to do it, she can sing pretty good & seems passionate about her work. That is important to music as much as writing.
There's another thread about lyricists not being songwriters. To me this is all academic guff really.
Here's Public Enemy's 'He Got Game' with a Stephen Stills sampled soundbase and a whole set of brilliant lyrics. Is this a song? And is Chuck D not a songwriter? He makes one hell of a contribution to that piece.
Here's Springsteen's 'Highway Patrolman' from 'Nebraska'. Minimal music with a story. Story telling, poetry and songwriting are intimately related. It's as simple as that.
Too many cooks spoil the broth......
Rihanna never said anything about a "personal vision".
What point are you trying to convey here? It's not the same or even close as the other comparisons.
Or possibly not, I have been known to analyse things too deeply.
Babyface and Bobby Womack are on the writing credits for Mariah Carey's We Belong Together because she names both of their songs in the lyrics.
You seem to be forgetting the huge change that came with The Beatles and Dylan etc. in the early 60s. Right up to the late 50s the majority of pop artists would perform the songs written by professional songwriters (Tin Pan Alley). But with the influence of artists like Dylan, Chuck Berry, The Beatles and The Beach Boys, it was shown that pop music artists could and should compose and perform their own music in a serious way. And develop an experimental and artistic approach to pop music, reflected in the works of later artists like The Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd, Stevie Wonder, Prince, U2 etc.
There has always been pop artists who are just performers and the balance seems to have gravitated towards those sort of artists again.
On the other hand, a team of writers wrote Seinfeld while Miranda Hart wrote her putrid sitcom all by herself.
Are the songs she wrote hits? Britney Spears wrote Dear Diary off Oops I did It Again. Should I bow down in awe? No because it's a terrible track.
Playing an instrument to the level where you would be able to play live and write songs is not a common talent. The market is flooded by great singers, there aren't nearly as many talented musicians.
She has writing credits on 'Run This Town', 'Hard', 'What Now', 'Te Amo', 'The Monster', 'Can't Remember to Forget You', 'Pour It Up' and others. Difficult to tell how much she contributed but you can't claim she didn't contribute. Plus many album tracks.
Yes but she didn't write Baby One More, Oops I did It Again or Toxic. Her landmark songs. So what does that tell you? The artists I listen to wrote the songs that made them and that is a feeling you will never get when you listen to the likes of Britney.