I already made a thread about this a while ago and that really didn't turn out very well.
I've just watched this episode again and wondered about this myself then found this thread, so thank goodness I'm not alone! And I can imagine the sort of problems you had with your post - I mistakenly said Dr Who on a thread once, instead of The Doctor and boy - did I get told off! If I think about the River Song/Who relationship for too long, my head hurts
I just suppose that at the time they didn't realise how they would use her, and then along came Matt Smith. What I always question is the amount of carnage us Earthlings have to endure in these series and we don't appear to bat an eyelid. I'd be in constant stress.
I still don't get why there has to be continuity problem here at all. When River twigs that 10 is a really early version of the Doctor (to her) she tries to cover up by just saying "early days..." to avoid spoilers, as she calls it. She could have been thinking 10 came after 11. Like someone mentioned- she might not know the exact order- again to avoid spoilers- She might meet 10 again on screen in the anniversary? We'll have to wait and see on that one. PLUS she could well have had a few off-screen times with 10 too, after the library.
when River sees the Doctor she sees the person, not the number.
Isn't this the answer? I believe we know that Time Lords can recognise each other regardless of whether they've seen a given regeneration before [cautious wording due to my being on holiday, far from my usual reference tools]. River, as a time-head baby with capacity to regenerate, may have the same capability: the first thing she sees is the abiding essence of the Doctor (invisible to us), and only later does she take in the accidental details that mark him out as a particular regeneration, so her apparent confusion is understandable.
RIVER: "Okay, shall we do diaries, then? Where are we this time? Er, going by your face, I'd say it's early days for you, yeah? So, er, crash of the Byzantium. Have we done that yet? Obviously ringing no bells. Right. Oh, picnic at Asgard. Have we done Asgard yet? Obviously not. Blimey, very early days, then. Whoo, life with a time traveller. Never knew it could be such hard work. Look at you. Oh, you're young."
Presumably River would not have anything n her diary she'd not experienced, and we know she experienced the Crash of the Byzantium with Doc 11.
We've never even seen another encounter between her and Doc 10, which is not such a problem considering that she was given drawings of other faces she might encounter, and that there are periods undocumented in televised 10 Who, e.g. His first encounter with Elizabeth I. But why would River misremember whether she'd faced down a whole legion of Weeping Angels with Doc 10 or Doc 11?
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
The River in the Library is the oldest we've seen so far. As far as we know.
Perhaps the 50th has already happened from 11's PoV and 11 was plucked out of his timeline to join 10 in an adventure...
The 'oldest' River to date was in The Name Of The Doctor - a post-Library uploaded version.
Also, it was during production of Silence In The Library/The Forest Of The Dead that Tennant had his brief wobble about staying on for Series 5, as Moffat had briefed him on where the show was going to head (see RTD's The Writer's Tale).
So, plans for that series were already in place, and Moffat already had two loose versions of The Eleventh Hour worked out depnding on whether it was starting with Ten or Eleven. So, most likely the dialogue is covering Moffat either way, depending on whether Tennant stayed or not.
At the time, the mention of the Byzantium was a throwaway line - it could easily have ended up as an unseen adventure. But there's no contradiction - she was desperately trying to find things that he recognised, she's since said that him not knowing her is her greatest fear. She probably doesn't remember exactly which incarnation had which adventure.
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
Don't you ever give up DariaM?
I think that you are the ONLY person here that insists that the 2005+ series is not linked to the 'classic' series. Everyone else, including everyone involved with the production of Doctor Who, is happy that the current series IS a direct continuation of the show that began on TV in 1963.
Believe what you will, but please stop polluting every bloody thread with this absurd fantasy of yours. Give it a rest, please.
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
I don't quite know what you are smoking to have this bizarre belief, but if I were you I would leave it alone.
The classic series, the 2005+ series and even the film are all one.
If you wish to carry on deluding yourself, then might I suggest a forum called, nutcases'r'us.com. That way, you can further your behavior by trying to convince us that the Moon is made of cheese and there are real little people in radios.
If Doctor 11 'dies' (i.e. regenerates), then technically he and River Song would no longer be 'married' (the Tesselecta married River). I don't believe that the Doctor ever really loved River. I never got that vibe from him. He just performed a coup de grace by pretending to marry her in the suit because he realised he had no choice and had to repair the fixed point. And then escaped. River does love the Doctor, however as he represents her wild sided nature. To me that makes perfect sense - even though River thinks of them as 'married'. They're not. And when the regeneration occurs, they will certainly not be. Even incarnation has different characteristics. I can't imagine Doctors 1, 3, 6 or even 9 travelling with River.
The Doctor was inside and it was him saying the Words.
Saying the Tesselecta married River is like saying that at a fancy dress Wedding with the groom in a Gorilla suit it was the Gorilla that married the Bride.
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
I know you won't answer this but in your Bizarro World who was Peter Davison playing in Time Crash?
If Doctor 11 'dies' (i.e. regenerates), then technically he and River Song would no longer be 'married' (the Tesselecta married River). I don't believe that the Doctor ever really loved River. I never got that vibe from him. He just performed a coup de grace by pretending to marry her in the suit because he realised he had no choice and had to repair the fixed point. And then escaped. River does love the Doctor, however as he represents her wild sided nature. To me that makes perfect sense - even though River thinks of them as 'married'. They're not. And when the regeneration occurs, they will certainly not be. Even incarnation has different characteristics. I can't imagine Doctors 1, 3, 6 or even 9 travelling with River.
That's however completely disregarding The Name of the Doctor where the Doctor calls River his wife and therefore River isn't the only one to consider them to be married and where the Doctor more or less indirectly tells River that he loves her. Yes, he never said to her "I love you" directly (though none of us really know what he whispered into her ear in Let's Kill Hitler), but that's hardly shocking when you consider that even Ten who was much more open about his emotions than Eleven was never managed to tell it to Rose and the only time he actually got close to saying it was when he was faced with the possibility of never seeing her again. You also have to consider that what we saw on screen was only a very small part of River's and the Doctor's relationship, because the majority of their travels together happened inbetween Closing Time and The Wedding of River Song (according to the diary of the older Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut) or inbetween other episodes.
The Doctor was inside and it was him saying the Words.
Saying the Tesselecta married River is like saying that at a fancy dress Wedding with the groom in a Gorilla suit it was the Gorilla that married the Bride.
We never saw the Doctor inside saying the words, so it still doesn't count. Like I said he had to initiate the plan to fix the broken fixed point in time. But everybody has their own ideas.
Well at least he had the deacency to ask Amy and Rorys permission before he performed the ceremony. They both gave their blessing (despite Rory not really remembering he was River/Melodys father) and acted as wittnesses. Legal arguments aside they both considered themselves married to the other. That's good enough for me. Would like to see more of her but if TNOTD was her last episode then so be it. Would love it though if 12 and Clara bumped into her pre library. 12 whispers something to her she realises her husband had regerated into a new form she doesn't know. 12 should keep the memories and feelings from their relationship.
That's however completely disregarding The Name of the Doctor where the Doctor calls River his wife and therefore River isn't the only one to consider them to be married and where the Doctor more or less indirectly tells River that he loves her.
Not at all. Although the Doctor called her his wife, their 'marriage' (I'm not convinced it was the real Doctor who said the words - no onscreen proof) was in an aborted timeline. So therefore, it never happened. River herself said that Amy murdering Kovarian never really happened. Amy, however, did say that it felt like she did. Which is probably why the Doctor and River allude to a 'marriage.' They know it never really happened, but refer to it nevertheless. Hence the Doctor referring to his 'wife's' tomb. Notice how he said goodbye to her without much emotion. Interesting reaction.
Not at all. Although the Doctor called her his wife, their 'marriage' (I'm not convinced it was the real Doctor who said the words - no onscreen proof) was in an aborted timeline. So therefore, it never happened. River herself said that Amy murdering Kovarian never really happened. Amy, however, did say that it felt like she did. Which is probably why the Doctor and River allude to a 'marriage.' They know it never really happened, but refer to it nevertheless. Hence the Doctor referring to his 'wife's' tomb. Notice how he said goodbye to her without much emotion. Interesting reaction.
Without much emotion? Were you watching a totally different programme from me?
The goodbye scene between River and 11, and Matt's absolutely masterly portrayal of restrained emotion and heartbreak was wonderful!
I think that they think they're married - they've both said so. That's enough for me. No need to find elaborate reasons for why they are not, in fact, married. if you don't like the idea, too bad, it's done now. (I can think of lots of things in DW I don't like, but have to put up with - Ten marrying Liz 1 for example).
I'm pretty sure I read an interview were Moffat said he wrote River as a one off just based on the premise what if the Doctor met someone from his future. At this stage there was no intention to bring her back and definitely no season 5 plan in place.
Yes. In fact, originally RTD/Moffat were after Kate Winslet to play the part, so they obviously saw the character as a one-off. In fact, I'd be prepared to bet my own money that she wouldn't have come back as frequently as Alex Kingston has been able to, if at all.
The problem is it's one thing to play with time, yet have everything come together perfectly for the finale during the space of one episode. Blink is still one of my favourites , despite all the hype. However, when it's a matter of having lots of cool ideas and trying to pull them all into one arc over many episodes, as you go along, then it's a lot harder.
There's no way that Moffat wrote out the whole arc plot on two sides of A4 in 2009, then developed the individual episodes based on the already complete (in his head) story. If he had, there'd be few or no plot holes. By the time of TWORS, it was all a bit Matrix Reloaded. No matter what is said, there's no way the Matrix was always planned as the first film of a trilogy. At least Moffat didn't fill a quiet moment in the episode with a rave, while the marriage was consummated...
This definitely isn't Moffat bashing, before anyone goes for that tiresome knee jerk reaction. Eleven is the only 21st century doctor whose every episode I've watched. I've seen about 2/3 of 2005 - 2009 stories and have no plans to fill the gaps.When I 'catch up' on Doctor Who, I mean Classic Who. The only Ten episodes I re-watch are the Library stories and Blink. I really appreciate what Moffat tried to do - but he didn't plan ahead properly, not to mention being distracted by whatever shenanigans went on re: Production/Sherlock recently.
Maybe if the Show runner was non-creative, but simply responsible for recruiting writers, pulling together episodes, coming up with the 'tone' of the series year by year and restraining the producers re: budget etc, it would have been different. If writers had to submit arc/ storyline ideas to Mr X, then maybe working with someone who had the right to question his decisions and edit his work, would have meant Moffat could have blown it out of the water.
Isn't this the answer? I believe we know that Time Lords can recognise each other regardless of whether they've seen a given regeneration before [cautious wording due to my being on holiday, far from my usual reference tools]. River, as a time-head baby with capacity to regenerate, may have the same capability: the first thing she sees is the abiding essence of the Doctor (invisible to us), and only later does she take in the accidental details that mark him out as a particular regeneration, so her apparent confusion is understandable.
Pedantics aside...Wont Peter Capaldi be Doc 4 ... after Christopher Ecclestone, David Tenant and Matt Smith (with John Hurt poss Doctor #0) ? After all, the 2005+ series remains non canon with the original 1963-89 series, and even the 1996 movie adaptation.
I think she's in denial. Her best friend, JaneL, and her eventual boyfriend, TomS, probably feel the same. It's unclear what her real-life heroine, JaneaneG, would say.
Comments
I've just watched this episode again and wondered about this myself then found this thread, so thank goodness I'm not alone! And I can imagine the sort of problems you had with your post - I mistakenly said Dr Who on a thread once, instead of The Doctor and boy - did I get told off! If I think about the River Song/Who relationship for too long, my head hurts
I just suppose that at the time they didn't realise how they would use her, and then along came Matt Smith. What I always question is the amount of carnage us Earthlings have to endure in these series and we don't appear to bat an eyelid. I'd be in constant stress.
Isn't this the answer? I believe we know that Time Lords can recognise each other regardless of whether they've seen a given regeneration before [cautious wording due to my being on holiday, far from my usual reference tools]. River, as a time-head baby with capacity to regenerate, may have the same capability: the first thing she sees is the abiding essence of the Doctor (invisible to us), and only later does she take in the accidental details that mark him out as a particular regeneration, so her apparent confusion is understandable.
The 'oldest' River to date was in The Name Of The Doctor - a post-Library uploaded version.
Also, it was during production of Silence In The Library/The Forest Of The Dead that Tennant had his brief wobble about staying on for Series 5, as Moffat had briefed him on where the show was going to head (see RTD's The Writer's Tale).
So, plans for that series were already in place, and Moffat already had two loose versions of The Eleventh Hour worked out depnding on whether it was starting with Ten or Eleven. So, most likely the dialogue is covering Moffat either way, depending on whether Tennant stayed or not.
No. This would be an incorrect thing to say.
Don't you ever give up DariaM?
I think that you are the ONLY person here that insists that the 2005+ series is not linked to the 'classic' series. Everyone else, including everyone involved with the production of Doctor Who, is happy that the current series IS a direct continuation of the show that began on TV in 1963.
Believe what you will, but please stop polluting every bloody thread with this absurd fantasy of yours. Give it a rest, please.
So those images of all the previous Doctor's in The Eleventh Hour were what?
John Smith's sketches of previous Doctor's in the diary of impossible things?
Clara seeing all eleven previous Doctor's?
Jackson Lake's info stamp of the previous Doctor's?
And the Doctor's library card with the first Doctor's face on it?
Links between the two series and the TV movie possibly?
I don't quite know what you are smoking to have this bizarre belief, but if I were you I would leave it alone.
The classic series, the 2005+ series and even the film are all one.
If you wish to carry on deluding yourself, then might I suggest a forum called, nutcases'r'us.com. That way, you can further your behavior by trying to convince us that the Moon is made of cheese and there are real little people in radios.
The Doctor was inside and it was him saying the Words.
Saying the Tesselecta married River is like saying that at a fancy dress Wedding with the groom in a Gorilla suit it was the Gorilla that married the Bride.
I know you won't answer this but in your Bizarro World who was Peter Davison playing in Time Crash?
That's however completely disregarding The Name of the Doctor where the Doctor calls River his wife and therefore River isn't the only one to consider them to be married and where the Doctor more or less indirectly tells River that he loves her. Yes, he never said to her "I love you" directly (though none of us really know what he whispered into her ear in Let's Kill Hitler), but that's hardly shocking when you consider that even Ten who was much more open about his emotions than Eleven was never managed to tell it to Rose and the only time he actually got close to saying it was when he was faced with the possibility of never seeing her again. You also have to consider that what we saw on screen was only a very small part of River's and the Doctor's relationship, because the majority of their travels together happened inbetween Closing Time and The Wedding of River Song (according to the diary of the older Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut) or inbetween other episodes.
We never saw the Doctor inside saying the words, so it still doesn't count. Like I said he had to initiate the plan to fix the broken fixed point in time. But everybody has their own ideas.
True, damn it
Not at all. Although the Doctor called her his wife, their 'marriage' (I'm not convinced it was the real Doctor who said the words - no onscreen proof) was in an aborted timeline. So therefore, it never happened. River herself said that Amy murdering Kovarian never really happened. Amy, however, did say that it felt like she did. Which is probably why the Doctor and River allude to a 'marriage.' They know it never really happened, but refer to it nevertheless. Hence the Doctor referring to his 'wife's' tomb. Notice how he said goodbye to her without much emotion. Interesting reaction.
Without much emotion? Were you watching a totally different programme from me?
The goodbye scene between River and 11, and Matt's absolutely masterly portrayal of restrained emotion and heartbreak was wonderful!
I think that they think they're married - they've both said so. That's enough for me. No need to find elaborate reasons for why they are not, in fact, married. if you don't like the idea, too bad, it's done now. (I can think of lots of things in DW I don't like, but have to put up with - Ten marrying Liz 1 for example).
Yes. In fact, originally RTD/Moffat were after Kate Winslet to play the part, so they obviously saw the character as a one-off. In fact, I'd be prepared to bet my own money that she wouldn't have come back as frequently as Alex Kingston has been able to, if at all.
The problem is it's one thing to play with time, yet have everything come together perfectly for the finale during the space of one episode. Blink is still one of my favourites , despite all the hype. However, when it's a matter of having lots of cool ideas and trying to pull them all into one arc over many episodes, as you go along, then it's a lot harder.
There's no way that Moffat wrote out the whole arc plot on two sides of A4 in 2009, then developed the individual episodes based on the already complete (in his head) story. If he had, there'd be few or no plot holes. By the time of TWORS, it was all a bit Matrix Reloaded. No matter what is said, there's no way the Matrix was always planned as the first film of a trilogy. At least Moffat didn't fill a quiet moment in the episode with a rave, while the marriage was consummated...
This definitely isn't Moffat bashing, before anyone goes for that tiresome knee jerk reaction. Eleven is the only 21st century doctor whose every episode I've watched. I've seen about 2/3 of 2005 - 2009 stories and have no plans to fill the gaps.When I 'catch up' on Doctor Who, I mean Classic Who. The only Ten episodes I re-watch are the Library stories and Blink. I really appreciate what Moffat tried to do - but he didn't plan ahead properly, not to mention being distracted by whatever shenanigans went on re: Production/Sherlock recently.
Maybe if the Show runner was non-creative, but simply responsible for recruiting writers, pulling together episodes, coming up with the 'tone' of the series year by year and restraining the producers re: budget etc, it would have been different. If writers had to submit arc/ storyline ideas to Mr X, then maybe working with someone who had the right to question his decisions and edit his work, would have meant Moffat could have blown it out of the water.
True, but it was correct back on the 27th April, when I posted that; before The Name of the Doctor aired.
This is a bit of a zombie thread.
Mrs Robinson to her young lover in The Graduate.:)
i do quite like that idea too:)
Can't tell if trolling or just in denial.
I think she's in denial. Her best friend, JaneL, and her eventual boyfriend, TomS, probably feel the same. It's unclear what her real-life heroine, JaneaneG, would say.